Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - How's Work? - The Preacher's Wife Part Two

Episode Date: September 18, 2023

When a tragedy shakes their church and their community, both the preacher and his wife try to put the pieces back together for themselves and his congregation. This is the second part of a special two-part episode. This episode contains discussions of a death by suicide. Please take care listening. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

How's Work is an unscripted one-time counseling session focused on work. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names, employers, and other identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real. Metrolinx and Crosslinx are reminding everyone to be careful as Eglinton Crosstown LRT train testing is in progress. Please be alert, as trains can pass at any time on the tracks. Remember to follow all traffic signals, be careful along our tracks,

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Life's full of choices. Smart Water Alkaline is a simple one. In this next session, we will be talking about death by suicide and suicide on the job. I want to take a moment to warn you in case this material is not for you. This episode is the second part of the session that I did with the couple, the young pastor and his wife, who were talking about how the church had become the third member of their marriage. While this session is going to be addressing the specific incident of the suicide that happened in his church. I really thought that it was much broader. It was about what happens when we give evaluations or when we give critical feedback, and the next day, the person in question doesn't show up on the job. And then, specifically in their case,

how this event galvanized their whole relationship with each other, with their respective roles vis-a-vis the church, and with her taking over in a way that she had never anticipated. And ultimately, finding a place in her community that she had always stayed on the fence with. So all the pieces get rearranged. And this is what happens in the relational system,

is that when one piece is moved, it shakes up all the other parts. And this is one of those moments when it is so completely clear. Nothing stayed in place afterwards. I had a staff member whose responsibility for youth and education hung himself in his living room. And so she took on his. Last summer. Last summer.

Yeah. On our anniversary. Yeah, that's true. That's how the church is the third party in our marriage. What happened? So we have a policy at the church, a child protection policy, that no adult is allowed to be with a minor unaccompanied by another adult. Obviously, if that minor is a member of their family, that's different.

He knew about this policy, and he was on staff already when I came as the pastor, and I made it clear from the beginning that I have zero tolerance, zero tolerance for the breaking of that policy. I also want to be a person of grace. So one day I come back to the church, and he is in his office by himself with, how old do you think he is? 11 or 12. He's sitting behind his desk. The minor is sitting on the other side. It was a bad situation.

It was a situation he shouldn't have been in. In the moment I addressed it, I said, you shouldn't do this. Actually. Can I interject? When you say it was a bad situation, it was bad because they were violating the policy, but they were in fact playing a game, correct? They were playing a board game.

There was nothing inappropriate going on. And we've talked to the parents, nothing inappropriate ever happened between them. And no allegations have emerged. But I had to be out. Did anybody ever speak to the child? Yes. Had there been other complaints about him before?

He had violated it before. This was the first time I saw him by himself with another minor. He had been by himself with minors, plural. And I had addressed that with him. I said, you should not do this, as much as for your own protection as it is for theirs. He was on shaky territory. So I called him into my office on Tuesday. I said, look, you know that you are violating our policy. If I see this one more time, I'm going to fire you on the spot,

and I'm going to report you. Because if this happens again after this conversation, then it's not going to be good. And he went home and hung himself after that conversation. He had not been fired, but I had made it pretty clear that that behavior would not be tolerated and the reasons why it would not be tolerated. The next day, it was a Wednesday, it was our anniversary. He didn't show up for work. I'm like, okay, maybe he's sick. Texted him, didn't get anything back. And I thought, okay, he's pissed. He's going to quit.

So I went over to his apartment with the police. And the landlord went into his apartment and came back out. I'll never forget this as long as I live, and said, yeah, young himself. I listened to him, and it's clear that he spent the whole year helping his congregation, helping the children, and he's been available for everyone, but he hasn't had any opportunity to process this for himself.

And as he's telling this story, I sense how he's held himself together. He has had to really keep himself up so that he can help all the others who are feeling low. Honestly, I've had sort of a cold relation to it. It's affected me in that I've had dreams, like for a while afterwards, I would have dreams of him with a rope in his hand you know just things like that which i would imagine would be a normal way of process subconscious processing this but it was a host of there was a lot of

to clean up after that in terms of taking care of the kids and people that were just utterly wrecked by this. But I went into damage control mode and we got through it. Yeah, it was hard, but there was in some sense that I hate him for what he did. Why would you do such a thing to the kids over which you had responsibility? And they loved him too, don't you think? Yeah. So that's the story of his suicide. And we're currently in a search to fill his position now.

What did you put together? Put together, meaning? In terms of what may have happened. At first, and I do think I probably had my conversation with him, it had to have something to do with his decision. I think he was, he might have, I suspect he had problems with depression in light of his decision to do what he did. But it's hard for me not to believe that my conversation with him the day before his death did not have something to do with it. It had to have had something to do with it. I'm almost convinced of that. And it makes me wonder, okay, I have a conversation with him on Tuesday about violating

our child protection policy, and the next day he's found dead. It makes me wonder, okay, maybe something happened and we don't know about it yet, or something was about to happen, and maybe he thought the only way to stop himself was to end himself. But nothing has turned up. There has been no shred of evidence that any laws were broken or any inappropriate relationships were going on between him and the youth for which he had responsibility. No evidence whatsoever so it makes the mystery even more potent i pick up on the sentence why would he do this to the children

and in my mind i think and is he asking, why would he do this to me? I hear the fear. I hear the shock. I hear the anger. It stirs up so many contradictory feelings all at once. And so I inquire about his relationship to this youth minister, not just the role of the youth minister in the church. He was younger than me, but he did not go to college. And I tried to work with him.

And when I came to the church, he was on staff. He was well-beloved, especially the parents. And for a church that wants to have young families, if the parents are happy, then that's wonderful. So he was loved by the parents. But I would say, look, you need to go to school. You need to get some courses. If this is what you want to do, one of these days, your bag of tricks is going to run out. And he just would not take advantage. I mean, we had worked out a deal where we would... So the church has some significant financial resources as an endowment. And we were going to tap some of those resources to pay for college. And we were going to work with his schedule. I mean, it was a gift on a platter

that he never took advantage of. For what reason, I have no idea. You're smiling. Oh. We fought about this. We've had many fights had many because i was ready i wanted to fire him already because he would not take advantage of these opportunities and i'm like what then what are you doing you know so and my cards on the table i have a different relationship to suicide two of my friends when i was in college committed suicide. So my therapist this summer kept saying, you can't make one thing about everything, but I like making one thing about everything. So it is very hard for me to not kind of lump them together and see it very much through like mental health only lens. And my understanding of this young man is that I believe he was dyslexic and I believe he had incredible anxiety and shame around school. And he had a great fear of, I can't go,

I'm going to fail, I can't do it. That's my read. Well, and I tried to talk to him. I said, look, we'll work with you. Yeah. Thinking about that situation in light of our conversation this afternoon. Or the conversation between reason and faith. Yes. Right? You were trying to reason with him and he had no faith in himself. I don't understand why someone like him wouldn't have faith in himself. Why? You have worked with non-believers. Yeah. Non-believers in themselves. Uh-huh. You must know something about that.

Yeah. Yeah. That's true. I mean... What bothered me about him, though, is that in public he would pontificate as if he were this charismatic. So do you. Nobody in your church knows that you can catastrophize. But I- Nobody knows your panics. I have a master's degree.

That is not the point. The point is that when you act as the leader of your congregation, you do not show your panic. No. That is reserved for your beautiful wife, brilliant wife right here. She knows the panic button, but that is not what you show the people. There was a lot of panic in those days.

And the more panic you feel and the more you present yourself as what? As I've got this under control yes okay all right I was very so you're a good actor too yeah there is some acting there has been some acting that It was interesting because I felt like in that moment that, okay, this is the moment of truth. I need to be a non-anxious presence. I need to be very clear and very decisive about the steps moving forward. And I was with the leadership, with planning funeral, even coordinating and doing some of the behind the scenes investigative work. And even, because I had to talk to detectives because I didn't know if the conversation the day before and the suicide was related. And so there was that later too, and all of that was behind the scenes.

And I was in game mode. But I was terrified. I was terrified. Oh, I was terrified. It was terrified. Oh, I was terrified. It is terrifying when someone on your staff takes their life. Yeah. And I felt partially responsible for it, as irrational as that sounds. It's hard for me to not take responsibility for it.

Of course. Of course. And how has that early experience shaped your ministry? Your ministry. Because this is the ultimate experience of not being in control. Oh, yeah. When someone else dies by suicide. When tragedy strikes a family or a company or a congregation, the leader is often called to take charge. And taking charge is a combination, in his case, of planning for the funeral,

probably even officiating at the funeral, bringing the community together, making sure that there are no cracks, holding for the grief and the anxiety and the sorrow that exists, reassuring the children. So many different things that we need to do as leaders to be in charge and to create this holding environment for other people to be able to process the experience. But for the leader, like for him, a year later, when he says, I was frightened, I was frightened,

you feel it viscerally in your own body, all that fear that is oozing out that he could not acknowledge at that time, because as he said, he had to be in his game. When someone on your staff and someone right under you and someone you're trying to help, et cetera, et cetera. I mean, this is, you know, as a therapist, I can tell you that this is one of my biggest fear. Well, and what was so disturbing about it is that no one saw the signs. Everybody thought he was... I knew of some issues behind the scenes because that's the nature of my role. You see everything. I'm the only one in the system that sees everything. So what's it like when you saw and somebody, I mean, for someone like you who wants to all be in charge and in control, this is a very formative experience. Yeah, it was really unsettling.

Not how you managed it and how you got through it and how you organized everything. I get that. But I'm asking you on a deeper level, how has that, that did it? Maybe you'll tell me it had zero effect on the way that I see my work with people and with my congregation, my parishioners. It made me more uncertain about people. That's for sure. You're shaking your head. Yeah, I can see that. Like, for everyone, I think, had this deep sense of, we thought we knew him.

But you were in the middle of saying something about how you had seen this person. I mean, I don't wish to set myself up as like, I saw this. No, I did not see this coming. But I think I'm much more comfortable than you and maybe many other people in the church with the fact that people can seem one way and a whole different thing can be going on behind the scenes. To me, it's like, oh, yeah, I've experienced that and watched that in so many other contexts. Like, did I specifically guess it about this person? No. Do I know guess it about this person? No. Do I know that it happens?

Yes. So you're saying to him, you may be, you think you're seeing everything, but you don't. Yeah, exactly. It was really unsettling in that respect. Yes. Especially as a boss, I think.

The sense of, as you've been talking about, the kind of the manager, I'm in charge of you. I think I struggle with paranoia sometimes, and it definitely heightened my paranoia, sense of paranoia. it did impact me in a deep way in that you never can be certain about another person's world. You just cannot be certain. my responsibility then is to have compassion and be as understanding as possible. And if I were going through that scenario again, someone who's not taking advantage, someone who's kind of pontificating but not really, I wish I had more compassion for him because I never really took the time to discern that there might be something in his world that I never see that can be causing him significant distress and pain. Because I had always worked with the assumption that if someone's world, if the house is on fire, then I'm going to smell the smoke. His house was on fire, but I never smelled the smoke. Or at least I never saw any signs that would lead to something like this. You also have the myth of, I pulled myself up by

my bootstraps and I did it all by myself. Here I am stretching out a hand to you and you're not taking advantage of it. And that pisses me off. Oh, I was so mad. I mean, it's infuriating. Right. But so when you ask yourself, where is my compassion? Or do you need to put A and B together? Why couldn't he be you? Yes. You said it more directly. I wanted him to be me.

Yes. You want her to be you. You want him to be you. Yeah, that's very true. I could not fathom why someone would not take the gift that was being. That's right. And you would have fathomed more or understood it better, maybe, if you had asked him a question rather than your pontificating to him. Yeah.

That's an amazing lesson. Uh-huh. When he was in the middle of his chaotic childhood, people lent him their hand and he took it. And he always saw himself as the beneficiary of the person who, through the help of others, had been able to rise to get education, to become a pastor, to leave the misery of his childhood. And so when he lent his hand to this youth minister, he couldn't believe that the guy would grab it the way he had done so. One of those scenarios was fueling the resentment

and frustrating him to the point that it blocked his compassion. What are we missing? Well, I think we started talking about him, something with children. And I will say that the kind of terrible upside of all of this is we had to really show up for the congregation, and we did show up for them. And there's a much deeper trust, and in terms of me in particular, I can be a fence sitter, and I was fence sitting, and it shoved me off the fence in a way that I think was good for me. I worked with a therapist shortly thereafter that, and paraphrasing her words is sort of like, you can't run around complaining that you don't have community and don't belong when you're just like sitting on the fence

refusing to participate. Like, you can have some small piece of connection and that's fine. Like, that's why I talk to the children. It made me, I wasn't singing in the choir. Like that's why I talked to the children. That's, it made me, I wasn't singing in the choir at the time, but he sang in the choir. So the choir director called me and said,

just like, we need more people, you know, like we need moral support. So now I'm up in front of the church and. Yeah. It's brought people together. That's very wise.

And why, what is it about the fence sitter? I't know I mean I think there are a couple things that's because that's something else you bring to her that I'm asking her that question yes he does he really does he gets me off fences um yeah yeah it's partially personality and partially yeah a sort there can be kind of vanity to it a sort of like well i don't want to or like there's not the right fit or they're not right for me um but also anxiety of course kind of like especially with your parishioners i sometimes think i don't know what to do with them and i think they actually probably feelers, I sometimes think, I don't know what to do with them. And I think they actually probably feel the same thing about me. Like, we don't know what to do with her. What are we supposed to talk to her about?

When she applied for the session, she emphasized how much the church was the third member of their marriage and wanting to find out, was there a way for them to create a stronger boundary around just the two of them. Then comes this whole session which is basically mostly about him. It is about how this crisis actually galvanized her involvement and her clarity about her relationship with the church but it was still all about him. We barely even touched the fact that she had a career too. We certainly didn't touch much about the couple and the relationship separately from his child. So as we approached the end of the session,

I came back to her request about what is ours that is just ours. What was so beautiful was that in fact, coming to this session, which she had described as one of the most spontaneous things that they have actually ever done, became maybe a template for them, a ritual that they could do together, do something that was just theirs.

And how important that would be for them as a couple to then be able to address the church in their midst. And so then the question becomes, where do you create privacy? Where do you create your own boundaries? Where do you relate to each other, sometimes at home, without having your third party present all the time? When do you become a dyad? And when are you not continuously in a triangle? We do that when we travel.

However, the church doesn't know we're here. So this has been a new experience for us, being in this location. This is a chapter just for us. To me, there's something fun about it. I mean, I'm very close to my family, so that feels weird to not be constantly like,

oh, let me send such and such a photo. But there's, I said to you, I said, there's something kind of fun about it it's like a secret trip um like it has like a kind of like honeymoon quality about it and I respect the intimacy of it but part of me is also like I feel guilty for being here in that I'm very glad to be here. Yes. But there's an element of guilt because no one in the church knows about it. And I'm not planning on telling them. I think there's an element of this is for us and not for them. I mean, when I am there, they're in some sense my all, they're my entire focus. I try to create some boundaries, but if I'm not at the church doing church stuff, it's still on my mind. I would say that this is one of those rituals, if you want to make it yearly or twice a year, that are going to be very important. That is not family related, not school related, and not community-related.

And if you want to make it every time a little secret that no one knows where you are, they can always find you on your phone, so they don't need to know where you are for that. Then play with it. It feels good, but it's unsettling too. Yeah, for sure. Yes, it's both end. Yes.

It's a little funny to me that you're having this strong of a guilty reaction because inevitably when we travel, your first reaction is, what do you say within like three hours? You've been saying it all day today we're moving here such and such and it's always i want to move here here almost always be in a big city because what you were telling me this last night because we're not under the microscope yes it's exactly that he says i want to be in a big city because then I can go somewhere and no one knows who I am. So you do love. Yeah.

A part of it is you can be more anonymous in a big city, but a part of it is also that you are acutely attuned to every breath and opinion of all the people that live around you. Yes. You know, when you go out in the little town together and you meet someone, are you able to just make it very short so that you can continue the conversation that you were in the midst of? It depends on who I run into. But there are certain people that will always ask you for your opinion and they will demand a good 20 minutes while you're in the

middle of entering a restaurant because they need to know that they are really important. Are you able to say, I'm with my wife tonight? I'm going to... Oh, I'm not able to say that. You're going to need to learn to say that too. Yeah. This is Saturday night, and I'm going out with my wife,

and you're here with your wife, for that matter, who you're not going to talk to because you're talking to the pastor. And, you know, these moments of boundary setting so that you can have a professional life, even if it's a calling, and also a family life. Sometimes it's hard for me to distinguish between the differences of those. But practice it now because you're going to need it even more so that you have kids.

Because your partner here, she can keep herself busy. But if you have the kids and you are always taking care of everybody else, then their dad is liked everywhere else and he's the master of the town, but at home he's absent. Yeah. I just don't want to disappoint anybody. Well, you will. Yeah.

Because you will be disappointing the closest people to you. You will. I just don't like being in those situations where if I prioritize myself, then it's going to disappoint someone else. You prioritize your family. Yeah. And if they truly have as much family values as they all say they do, then you will show it to them.

Good point. Yeah. Yeah. But you are there to set a model too. So this is part of your modeling. And hopefully it will show other fathers what they can do and ask for. You're not just there to please people. But that's what I...

Oh, yeah. I need... I know that. You're there to lead people. Lead, yeah. I need, I know that. You dare to lead people. Lead, yes. And you sometimes stop leading and you want to please. And you will never please everybody, so just get that. Nobody does.

Yeah. Yeah. How are we doing at this closing of our conversation? I'm exhausted. I mean, I've learned a lot, and I've been grateful, very deeply grateful for this time, but I'm exhausted. What's one important thing you take with you? Can I say two? Of course. One, as I said earlier, the protagonist metaphor is helpful

because one of the things I've struggled with, I'm going to put it in terms of freedom and obedience. Not that we really have any kind of view about gender or marriage. There should be obedience. But I still think there's something about obedience as a kind of like self-sacrifice that's very important. But then on the other hand, of course, I love autonomy. And I often, especially, they have really become a clash for me in marriage. It wasn't so much of a clash, not married. But in married, there's always this tension of when is it appropriate and good and beautiful to sacrifice and when should I be loudly demanding freedom and not that protagonist makes all the tension dissolve but it's a way to somewhat marry the two of them I think for me because the protagonist is allowing you to make an autonomous sacrifice.

Yeah, but also protagonists almost always are protagonists in stories with other people, right? I mean, you could have a story about one person, but it's probably not a very interesting story. So a way to think about kind of like, yeah, we're working on stories that are becoming one, but we're both characters with agency in those stories and story singular also and the other thing is reframing panic for you in terms of protecting is kind of helpful

for me because we can sometimes get into like you're the independent your word was selfish I wouldn't necessarily use that like the kind of like you're the independent your word was selfish I wouldn't necessarily use that like the kind of like you're the independent one she's the giving one and the kind of simple reminder that it is a kind of protecting and not just I don't care about other people that seems helpful I would one thing one one of many that I'm taking away from this conversation is that to try to see her as her own person. To see and appreciate the sacrifices that she has made, is making. But also prioritize our own flourishing. Yeah, it might be a way of kicking the church out of the relationship,

of both to see what you bring to the relationship, totally separate from the church, and to see what I'm doing. It's going to be hard for me to live into this, but what I'm taking away from this is that you've given me permission to kick the church out of the relationship at times. So I'm going to be the blasphemous one? Oh!

God is infinitely merciful. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Esther Perel is a therapist, bestselling author, speaker, and host of the podcasts, Where Should We Begin? and How's Work? To apply with a colleague or partner to do a session for the podcast, or to follow along with each episode's show notes, go to howswork.esterperel.com. How's Work is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom,

Eva Walchover, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Eleanor Kagan, Kristen Muller, and Julianne. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Howe's work are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller,

Jen Marler, and Jack Saul. Thank you.