Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - I Can Be Strong and Be Taken Care Of

Episode Date: December 30, 2021

As Esther says, love is at once an affirmation and a transcendence of who we are. But when one partner grows up as the child taking care of his mother is it any surprise that he experiences the romantic needs of his partner as a repeat of that same responsibility rather than an affirmation of love.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real. I think it's hard for me to admit that I need to be taken care of. Because that's bigger than sex. That's just like our relationship as a whole. This is a couple of two men who have been together almost two years.

They recently crossed to the other side of the continent to move in together. And as things began to escalate, they began to feel more and more trapped and afraid that their relationship may not be able to sustain itself. Really, the past year has been really strenuous on our relationship. We were wanting to get closer. We just I really didn't know how. We're an interracial gay couple, and I think the odds are stacked against us in some ways. I carry some trust and abandonment issues,

and I know he carries his own fears about placing trust in a partnership. For a long time, if they had a fight, they could make up through sex. When they began to disconnect in sex, they began to be really scared. What holds us now? For him to have sex, he has to feel emotionally connected. And for me, it's harder for me to get and give emotional connection. So we're opposite from what we require for sex. This is a session where I focus primarily on one partner in the presence of the other who becomes the witness.

I didn't know that this was going to be my choice. but I understood at one point that something about one person opening up and exploring the motives, the feelings, the struggles, actually comes as a relief to the other partner. It functions to disentangle the complex loops between them by just tracking and staying with one person at a time. I think a big issue of our relationship has been me being like, I don't know what I want. I don't know if this is going to work, but I want it to work and I want it to try. I think we're both a little nervous. Are you?

Yeah. Me too. Every time. You know, but tell me your nervousness. Let's compare our nervousness. Yeah. I think we just both felt it on our way over here. There's a low level fear that we're not equipped for a relationship or that we're not, you know,

this isn't, we're not meant to be this. And that's layered with our history and with being queer or that we're not, you know, this isn't, we're not meant to be this. And that's layered with our history and with, you know, being queer and, you know, all the things are stacked against us. We're like afraid that that's like going to come to light today, you know. And the stack includes? Our family dynamics and the homes we grew up in and how we learn love and our experiences with love so far our experiences with ourselves so far you know our own identities and like still that being worked out so whenever he's like you know saying something he needs or that he's not getting I get really defensive because I'm like I'm like holding on to the little bit that I do know because so much is like in question I feel you know

so I don't know yeah but I would like to know yeah I'll tell you what I just heard to go back to the nervousness just for a moment for you the nervousness is this fear in the background that maybe you're not equipped, what you call equipped for being in a relationship. And for you? I think it's similar, yeah. I think at the core of it, the being seen is maybe not being enough. Right. So those are negative anticipations. Can we just stack those against a different anticipation?

What would that be? Like a positive one? You know, yes, but I don't know if the word only exists in positive and negative. And they often have a relationship with each other, the very same things that we fear may hold us back are also the sources of our strength, the sources of why we still are together. So I don't think we need to switch from negative to positive, but we can switch from negative to layered.

Yeah. Yeah? Can we do that? So what would the layer be? I think in the context of our relationship, there is a real need to be seen and to be understood and to take the parts of me that are really not okay and kind of see past that.

And I think a lot of the fights or arguments that we have. Who says fight and who says argument here? I think I say fight. I think I say fight sometimes. But I think I'm almost fighting to just have him see parts of me that I think can be, you know, irrational and not always nice. And like I'm hoping that he'll still love me beyond that. So I'm afraid of that, but I also want that.

That's it. That's a layer. Yeah. That's beautiful. The very thing I fear is also the thing I long for. And the resolution of it sometimes lives in what is called acceptance. Yeah. So this, for me, is your opening to this conversation. Yeah. They both come in with a fair amount of self-awareness.

They're basically saying, we fight, we attack, we defend, we pursue, we withdraw. And we know that this is layered with our own childhood histories, with our family relationships. We both bring a struggle around trust and abandonment. And just that as an opening tells me that when someone does that and then says, I fear that I'm not equipped, I want to say to them, give yourself a little bit more credit. You have more self-awareness than one often hears in the first two minutes of a session. And you? I think that... I often feel like I'm at war with myself.

Particularly with this relationship. Because ever since I was about a teenager, I really prided myself in being independent and being the source of my own strength and kind of trucking through things and doing that alone. And then at the same time, or especially since we met and started dating it's desiring a companion and wanting that love and that connection and the you know what what connection really means what that really looks like has really scared me and really I fought

that I've been fighting that a lot and it's kind of to the point where I can't differentiate if I just I'm needing to learn things and get over like some humps and unlearn some things or if this isn't compatible I can't tell the difference and every time I get an argument or there's a disagreement I get really. I can stonewall and I'm very, very quick to say, this isn't working. That's why this isn't working. That's why we can't be together. And I'm starting to see, we're both starting to feel

that like every time we argue, every time there's a fight and I go there, it's like instincts. I don't even really think, I just go there. And after the fact, I can see it kind of chipping away at him, you know, and kind of at our relationship too. I can only say this isn't going to work so much for him, you know. Can I ask you something?

Yes. This isn't going to work. I'm out of here. Is that something that you have experienced in your life, but couldn't get out? Yeah. I mean, I think my parents, you know. How?

I had a really great example of love. And then like that, they like switched on each other. My parents. Both my parents cheated on each other. I don't know to what extent, but I know it was severe, you know. And when my mom cheated on my dad, my dad just, like, lost it. It became violent, verbally, physically abusive, and I was often present for all of that. And when mom left, I left with her.

You know, her and I got away from that situation. What was their background? My dad's black. He was born in California. And then when he was in high school, his family, they moved to Iowa. So he went from being in a very black community in LA to a very white community in Iowa. And he was called the N-word every day in school and really traumatized by racism.

And I didn't realize that until recently, piecing that together and you know how he raised us and you know some of the things he instilled in us what's one connection you just made or that you recently made when you say there's a connection between how he grew up, how he was beaten down with slurs and racism, and how he raised us. Yeah, just little things. Like, we were never allowed to leave the house unless we were fully presentable. We, you know, had to be twice as good at everything. Like, nothing was ever good enough in a lot of ways with my dad. Don't give them anything. Don't give them anything.

Don't give them nothing to, because, and I appreciate my dad for this. Finish the sentence. Don't give them anything to take away from your power, from who you are.

And I appreciate that from my dad. He really instilled in us, like, you are beautiful people. You're strong people. You're smart. You're capable. He really, really did that.

And that's a gift he gave us. Because he didn't have that. I don't know why I'm so emotional. Because it's a story that brings up emotion. You're not describing to me how to cook chicken. Which I can, if you want to. I'll take you up on that too. Because there's so much there.

And because at the moment you're telling me, my dad became very violent, it became so unsafe, and my mother and I had to leave but at the same moment as you're describing the violence of your dad you're also describing the protection of your dad and that's layers too yes and there's never been an acknowledgement for how his pain and his anger and him letting himself go really impacted and changed the course of all of our lives, impact our personalities and how we navigate the world,

my siblings and I. They started out with tremendous hope and positivity. And they arrive two years later, defeated and afraid. Because it was great and now every fight ends into, this ain't gonna work. One of the first things I want to do with them is invite them to create more layers rather than on and off in and out yay nay and to invite their stories to become more complex it's not just this or that it's this and something else. So when he talks about his father, and he describes this man who he and his mother fled, but then he's also able to talk about how much the father

became a source of pride and a source of strength for him. That is a very important layer, especially as he's describing their relationship within the larger context of racism, of gender, and the dynamics of violence in the family. Where your mom is from? My mom is from California, too. She's Mexican heritage, Mexican background. And she was disowned by her family when she married my dad because he was black. But my mom loved him. And even her partner now, he's a black man. She's just, she loves who she loves, you know.

But my dad was a brother. You seem to love her as is too. My mom is my element on me now. She is your... She's like my light. As a mother, it's one of the most beautiful things one can hear from a son. She did.

I don't know how she did, but she did. And like, you know, really just strengthened me. I don't want to say she protected me because she didn't protect me. And I feel like she did that intentionally. She didn't want to shield me from the world. She wanted to prepare me for the world. She did that in a very loving way.

A very powerful, rooted way. So, you know, I really love her for that. But it was hard. My dad was a breadwinner, and my mom, she just, she didn't really work when they were together, and so when they split, she didn't have any money. My dad didn't support us at all. How old were you?

I was about 12. And I really just kind of took on a protection role with my mom in a way. Even when my dad was physical with her, several times I ran in and pulled him off of her. She told me that the reason why she left is because they were fighting one time and he was getting physical with her. And I ran in and pushed him off and she saw look at my face and she said that she would worry that I would kill him or he would kill her if she didn't leave and how that will I get back to us that was her cue to leave so yeah did her parents support you? No.

In any way when you both? No. I don't know. My dad's sister was the biggest help we had. Because when we moved out, that's the first two nights we slept in her car, my mom and I. And my grandparents didn't help. The first two nights we slept in her car, my mom and I.

My grandparents didn't help. But my dad's sister took us in. She had a one-bedroom apartment in LA. They shared the bed, I took the couch. We stayed there for a few weeks until my mom could get a place for us. We did it. As soon as I could work and get a job, I got a job. I've always been very fortunate with that,

with great opportunities that came my way, and I was able to help support my mom from the time I was 17 until today. So when you say, I fear that I may not be equipped, what are the connections that you're making? I think the love that we have experienced together surpasses what I thought I would have.

I think the biggest thing for me is whenever there's conflict, I push the eject button right away. And we've had a lot of conflict, and I think that's gotten in my head a lot about maybe this isn't right because we have so much conflict and it kind of perpetuates the conflict because then I stonewall him and and what happens to him then

and then he reaches for me and I'm like leave me alone I need space I need solitude and he's reaching because that he feels disconnected you know he feels like I'm slipping away and that's that's our two things butting up against each other and it's a point where I can't differentiate if like conflict is normal get through it work through it this is a beautiful thing you have because we do have a beautiful thing you know and we see that we realize that or if in my head you know it's we're not compatible or this is too much conflict or you are really better off independent and alone. You have been. You've done most of your adult life and succeeded at.

What they're clear on is the loop. He pursues me, I withdraw, I stonewall, I stonewall, he pursues me more. But all the while thinking that the conflict is somehow inevitable. And this is what I want to explore with them. That knot that starts to breed the hopelessness that pervades them, that I don't feel. I actually at this moment have great hope for them.

He told us so much. He says, I'm a little confused, I'm stuck, because I don't know. A part of me says fighting, arguing, disagreeing is a normal part of a relationship, but a part of me doesn't really know how to deal with it. And one thing I know is I certainly don't want to repeat what happened in my house. And the last thing I want to do is do what my dad did because I promised myself I would never do what he did.

So instead of exploding, I withdraw. I leave. And when you come after me, I'm even more afraid that you're going to make me explode because I'm trying to tell you, leave me alone. Don't you get it? Leave me alone. The more he says, leave me alone, and the more you want him to not be alone because, A, you care about him and you don't want him to be alone. And, B, that makes you completely alone. And you don't want that either.

That's a great recap. Great recap, yes. And then he is left with the, well, maybe it's not meant to be. And then it becomes maybe this isn't meant to be. And then he goes into maybe I'm just not meant to be in a relationship with love and all of that. Yeah. Yeah. And it's a story. And the beauty about us in relationships is that you can start to write a different story.

Yeah. beauty about us in relationships is that you can start to write a different story and the fact that you just told all of this should be for you a very clear sign that you are not like your father who has not been able to acknowledge to make amends about that part of what he did with you you can love him you won't be like him do you know that learning okay this question about am i skilled for this am i equipped at this can i do this if it makes any difference i am married for 35 36 something years 40 years i know the same man and that is a question that i still have on occasion do not just think that it is because you're young and you start out i think that part of what pushes us to continue to grow and to change and to look at ourselves is that very question. How good am I to love? How lovable am I? How much does

my past stay with me? I think these are fundamental questions in life that don't need to lead you to the eject button. Yeah. I understood that he asks himself that question, am I made for love? Can I be in a relationship? That the question was not just a question. It also had an envelope of self-contempt. And so I chose to tell him, you know, it's actually a beautiful question. I asked myself that question still after decades. I wanted to take the sting out of the question and turn it into a real question and not a disguised blame.

I'm gonna wait, because I want to hear from you. Yeah, I mean, I guess my family background is not, like, nuclear. Meaning? My father passed away when I was around two. From? Lung cancer. You know, then growing up without a father was, I think, challenging because I was sort of effeminate as a kid,

and I became self-aware very quickly that that just didn't fly. And I sort of learned, you know, to the degree of, like, practicing how to say certain words, so I didn't, like, make my s's sound a certain way or just effeminate qualities that I think I knew quickly just were not okay for a boy and that was everything from the things that I gravitated toward to just the way I you know held my legs or the way I stood or ran or I just became very conscious of it, very, like, probably around seven years old.

What was the milieu? It's very white. My family's Italian, Catholic, so I have a pretty large extended family and you know pretty macho and the town that I grew up in was very small very white also very Catholic I even I went to a Catholic college too and how was your family and the extended family what was their relationship to effeminate boys, gay boys? That wasn't, that's not, those two are not one and the same. Yeah, no, it was, it was not good.

I, I was definitely called a faggot a bunch of times by a bunch of different family members growing up. And I just, I almost like grew to take that word and make it something that I could almost like use and not feel anything. Like I sort of deadened myself to the word while really making like very conscious choices about how I behaved, making sure that the things that I inherently gravitate toward were shut down

and the things I was supposed to like were like turned on. And I... Such as? What were you drawn to? I loved like painting and drawing. I was very artistic but those were deemed in my family and town as like girl things. You know I can remember like having my mom and sister try to teach me how to swing a bat and like, they just don't care about sports. So it's kind of funny to think about. But I think as I've gotten older, I've realized like it's muddled what I like and don't like. And that's hard to tell. Am I just liking this because I know I'll get approval for liking this?

Yeah. Or am I doing something that I genuinely care about and it's for me and I came out late too I came out really at 30 years old and how old are you now about to be 35 I really didn't like accept myself until I was 26 it was always this fear that that would break all of the relationships that I had and you know I didn't I didn't realize I was doing sort of you know double duty on like ruining these relationships because they were not real because they weren't accepting who I was because I wasn't showing them who I was but I wanted to keep them so I kind of kept myself from them so it was this kind of like just double-edged sword I think in in keeping people at a distance, I felt lonely,

but I was afraid to lose them if they saw who I truly was. It's so powerful and sad to hear him describe, in order to secure my attachments, in order not to lose the people I loved, I had to not love myself. I had to lie. I had to obscure major parts of me. If I'm going to show you my authentic self, you will reject me. And so his longing is to meet someone who will love him. And the meaning of that love is invested in accepting me for who I am, as I am. That is his dream of wholeness. When you have to hide,

when you become very good at concealing, when you learn the norms, and these are intense pressures, you know, and then you do bring them into your relationship with each other as well. If you are a relentless pursuer of harmony, of being accepted, of making sure that there is no friction, then I can imagine how rattled you become when he gets mad or there is discord or he needs to remove himself for you you never remove yourself your story is the story of fitting in

we're each off in our own survival strategy yeah yeah strategy. So he says this isn't meant to be. Is that the words? That I don't like I don't know if this is gonna work. I don't know if this is gonna work. And you? What happens to you then? I get angry. I feel really unheard. So I'll go to this place of like, I wish we could just talk about what I'm bringing up as opposed to like it being our relationship

that's now in question. And I'm articulating it like this now, but usually I pounce on that and I'm kind of like, I'm sure I'll throw a curse word in there somewhere. Can I hear it? It's probably like, I wish we could just fucking talk about what we're trying to talk about, you know?

And it's like that, like I get sharp and kind of like, I talk quick and jabby. And, you know, obviously nobody wants to respond to that. And I feel like that just, it almost becomes this like, who could outdo who at some point? And we start raising the stakes. And then we're not even talking about the very thing that brought us into it. I didn't ask him to give me the dialogue verbatim just because I want to hear him curse.

I just often think it's such a contrast between how nice some people behave while they're talking in my office and the shit show that I know is going on at home. And because he's in the role of the pursuer, it seems like he's the nice person who is just saying, why can't we be close? When in fact, it's not just that the other one is stonewalling, it's that he's being attacked. So it's so important to get the energy of this conversation rather than just the words of what they say to each other. So when he goes into, can't we just fucking talk about whatever I just brought up, you go to?

I think anger, I carry, I'm realizing the past few years, I carry some anger. And receiving his anger is very hard for me. And I can connect that receiving my dad's anger, I was absolutely not, like it was a reflex to get away from that. So when he's angry, I like reflex to get away from that. But at the same time,

his bids for connection for some reason compute themselves in my mind and heart that, like, who I am is not enough in this relationship. And it puts pressure on me. It makes me angry when you're, like, expecting more from me. And I get angry in that. And he perceives that as, like, okay, then I'm going to up the antics too. So now we're having a screaming match. And now we're just pushing each other's buttons. And it often leads to me saying, fuck you.

With such like, fuck you. I feel that. And only recently he's been saying that back too. And he feels that. You know? So like we can't really, we haven't really had a normal fight. That's been hard for me to, like, just have a normal average fight that couples have. Because I'm always going to.

What do you imagine that is? A normal fight? I don't know. I don't have a conception of it. I just know that couples fight, and they stay together, and they grow from it, and they work it out. I would say every fight we have, I'm going to, this isn't working. That's why this isn't working.

I'm going to fill out the door right now, because I need to go before this turns into what it can't turn into. We haven't been able to get past that. And he vocalizes to me that it's hard for him to bring up uncomfortable things because he's afraid that's going to go there. Like it's almost hard for him to approach me with things that are unsavory or that he needs or... That's exactly what he said before. Yeah.

If I was to tell them my truth, I would lose them. Yes. if I was to tell them my truth, I would lose them. So I either lie to myself in order to keep you, or I talk the truth of myself and I lose you. And basically, in your response, you kind of show him that this is indeed what will happen. Yeah. And on the other end, what's the reverse? What is being reenacted for you?

I feel like I almost have like a false expectation that if we're going to be in this partnership, if we're going to be in this relationship, it needs to be refuge. It needs to not be as hard as the rest of the world is for me. Because it feels like that. A lot of the world feels hard to me. Yes, it is. And, like, when he's coming to me with hard stuff, I'm like... Give me a break.

Yeah. Like, this is where I'm supposed to feel safe. And it's where I have felt safe. And, like, I feel like oftentimes, if not every time he's bringing things up that I find uncomfortable, I'm like, I can't be safe here. I can't feel comfortable here. And I know that's not rational, but that's the feeling. That's the reaction. I haven't been able to get over it.

And what is it that he brings up that evokes that for you? Wanting more of me. Wanting is usually always rooted in wanting more. Wanting more closeness. And I oftentimes feel that when he's asking for more of me, that I have to give up myself. I had a moment of choice of a number of directions I could take. There was something he said, which was, there is when he gets angry with me. But then there is when he has a bid for connection, when he wants something from me.

Instead of experiencing it as an invitation, he experiences it as pressure. And at that moment, I thought, oh, wow, maybe this is not all about that. There is another person here who may be at the core of some of what we're talking about, and that's mom. And because he adores mom and relies on mom and takes care of mom, it is much easier for him to talk about that. But mom is where we need to go. And I decided to continue staying primarily with him because whatever work he would do on himself would be work on the relationship. I'm still trying to understand that. I don't fully understand why and how I get so reactive and defensive

when he's asking for more and when he's wanting more connection. There's only one person who can ask that for you. Yeah. That's your mom. Yeah. And so when he asks, it suddenly feels like I'm maxed out. I've given everything I have to give.

And you hear it as he's asking for more rather than a compliment he's not there to tap you to deplete you and and it may trigger in you some of your you know on you adore your mother and you would do anything for her. But there is also a need to recognize the burden that this has had on you. It's had a burden on me. And when he asks for something,

he gets the response that maybe belongs to her. Yeah. My parents haven't yeah my parents haven't been my parents since I was 12 children who become the parents of their parents

children who who become parentified you know when he then says I want more you're thinking more of somebody i need to take care of and less of me on the other hand when you say i want more it's because you're working out the story of i'm finally coming out with my own authenticity, with who I really am. And I've dreamt my whole life that the day I will do that, there will be nothing, no barrier, no distance,

no gap between me and whoever I love. Because my whole life is a space that I could never cross, filled with that unspoken, filled with that closet, with that, I'm compromising for all of you. And when you say, I want more from your story, he hears, more caretaking? How much more can I give? And then he says, I have nothing more I want to give.

And then it becomes a battle between protecting myself, protecting the relationship. As if they are at odds with each other, there's no way that you can do both.

That's often how I feel, is that myself and this relationship are at odds. And I have to like concede on one or the other. And he has the same. In order to be in a relationship,

in order to maintain the relationship with people, I have to curb myself. Curtail myself. Not ask for too much, not say too much, not want, you know. There's a strange resonance between these two plots. Yeah. I think, you know, I really self-soothed a lot of my life. And a lot of times, when he's wanting more connection,

I'm almost saying, like't you like take care of yourself in that way I've had to do that yeah I've done that I've done that and I feel that I'm like I've done that can't you and this was our last fight I was like grow up I told him three times grow up grow up do it do it do it and grow up and I can know that he's being a vulnerable and wanting connection and not tapping you know but the feeling of that is that those haven't connected that bridge hasn't connected yet and it does feel sometimes like a caretaker role, you know. Is there some of that? Mixed in, in the layers.

Is there, I mean, in some strange way, both of you have had to take care of yourself or have taken care of yourselves alone on many instances. When you say, I want to feel closer and he hears, take care of me. Is there some of that? I oftentimes like to talk out a lot of things. And we've talked about this both seriously and joking, that I just talk way more than he does. And I've wanted to just share in experiences that I've had that I'm like, and I don't know how to handle this. And what do you think about handling?

I don't feel like we have that frequently or as or as much as I would like and so maybe I'm looking for a bit of a caretaker role in that I like to talk through things with yeah but I in a way when you want to just talk things through that's not about being taken care of what I'm imagining

you tell me is that if he starts to voice things out loud from where you come from you first need to solve this so that this is done, so that you can go back to thinking about you. And that feels okay for me when it's not about us or about me. Uh-huh.

When it's about us, for example, I want more connection. It feels as if I have to concede on myself to appease his needs. And he's not absolute about it. I know him enough to know that he's not saying, I feel this, you need to do this. He's just saying, hey, this is how i'm feeling but it just always turns for me into what i need to just i just have to roll over to make you happy and i can't do that right now right right how do your arguments slash fights and how does this dance that you describe, which means that after he says, I'm not going to take care of you,

I can't just roll over and have your happiness be the center of my life. I've done this once before, in effect. Then you come in finally and you say, well, then I won't ask for anything. So that's kind of the last move in this dance. And how does all of this affect your sexual relationship? Does it?

For sure. Yeah. I mean, he's definitely more emotional with sex. He what? He's more emotional with sex. He what? He's more emotional with sex. What does that mean? If he's not feeling connected to me, he's not very into it. It might not happen, you know.

And I'm a little more less emotional about it. Because for me, I think having sex with my partner is like a way that I connect. Linking our bodies in that way really makes me feel connected to you and feel human and feel like alive and seen. I wonder if there's something in this that love for you is sometimes experienced with a burden. Love comes with responsibility. Love comes with caretaking. Love comes with the worry about the well-being of the other person. Yes?

Yes. And sex becomes the place where you don't have to take care of anybody. You can feel free. He actually takes care of you. Sex is the place for love without a burden. Yeah. Or connection without responsibility. Yeah.

And a bit of a reward for the work. Right. Yeah. And a bit of a reward for the work. Right. Especially in the dynamics of our sex. Just the roles that we play in the bedroom. He takes care of me. I thought so. And he enjoys that. We've learned that about each other. So it's not like...

I don't think either of us feel burdened in that. But if that's the case, I would invite you to no longer think that his sex is emotional and he needs connection and your sex is not. The desire to experience love without burden and responsibility and worry is a deep emotion. Yeah, it is. This is a part of how you see yourself. My sex is energetic.

I can have sex without connection. No. What you're describing is a different kind of connection, but it is equally emotional. It is equally deep. It is equally, you know, intricate. Partly because of the relationship that you had with your mom, which is love with a deep sense of responsibility

and burden and worry and anxiety. And sex becomes the place that's free from all of that. And that is not just a sexual need. That is the deep emotional need that is conveyed through sex. Yeah. Yeah. So it's not he needs to love and have sex and you need sex and it has not much to do with love.

Not at all. If there's one thing I would love you to take with you from this conversation, this is one. Yeah. I haven't really thought of it like that before. Because I think how I have approached sex is parallel to how I approach the relationship too, which is, I want it, but I don't, I'm okay without it.

Like, I'll be fine without it, you know? It's really beautiful how you manage to ask in sex without realizing that you're asking. Sex is a great subterfuge for our deepest emotional needs. That's probably why I love it so much. Here we go. You may remain responsible and in a caretaking role. There's a different economic reality. There's a different racial reality.

There's a different family reality. There's lots of other pieces we can't really address in detail today. But you can make room for you. And that is something that only you will do. And come to your boyfriend with your needs, rather than hold this idea that I'm fine alone, I don't need it, I'm strong. That's yours to undo.

I can be strong and be taken care of. And not just imagine I like sex a lot, as if it's sex I like a lot. Which you may like a lot too, but there is that other hidden thread. And not to imagine that when he says, I want something, he instantly is asking you to set up a welfare system of two. Yeah. And it will directly affect him because, A, he's very wonderful at taking care of you

and he doesn't really get enough opportunity. And, B, he won't feel that every time he just wants to talk he's being shut down because you're having a panic attack of emotional overwhelm yeah yeah so if he says i want to feel more connected. You tell me, tell me how so. Bring it on. Love it. It's a compliment. Rather than, more work.

Yeah. Yeah. That's a different lens, for sure, that I haven't tried on. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. dot EstherPerel.com Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise for Gimlet

and Esther Perel Productions. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Eva Walchover, Destry Sibley, Hyweta Gatana, and Julia Natt. Recorded by

Noriko Okabe, Kristen Muller is our engineer. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin Thank you. Courtney Hamilton, Nick Oxenhorn, and Jack Saul.