Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - I Can't Love You the Way You Want Me To

Episode Date: April 14, 2025

Their relationship is on the edge. They're grappling with communication issues and the emotional scars from their past. And they're trapped. Trapped in an endless cycle of blame, defensiveness, and attack. Esther tries to help them notice their patterns of escalation and break the cycle they keep finding themselves in. Topic - Conflict & Polarization Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The phrase that was used often is, you can't love me the way I want to be loved. That's the recurring thing throughout the years. None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices

and their stories are real. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Nutrafol, the number one dermatologist recommended supplement for hair growth, trusted by over one and a half million people. For a limited time, Nutrafol, the number one dermatologist recommended supplement for hair growth, trusted by over one and a half million people. For a limited time, Nutrafol is offering you $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping when you go to nutrafol.com and enter the promo code BEGIN. Find out why over 4,500 healthcare professionals and stylists recommend Nutrafol for healthier

hair. Nutrafol.com, spelled N-U-T-R-A-F-O-L dot com. Promo code BEGIN. That's Nutrafol.com promo code BEGIN. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Saks Fifth Avenue. There's joy to be had in curating a closet that feels like it reflects you well. And Sax.com can make that easy. Whether it's refreshing your spring wardrobe or shopping for an upcoming vacation, Sax.com can help you reinvent your style or add joy to your daily rituals.

You can treat yourself to a pair of Prada sneakers to energize your walks or invest in a Burberry trench that will stand the test of time. Find inspiration for your personal style every day at Sax.com. When a couple comes to see me, there's often one person who has reached out, and that person is either familiar with the process of a therapy session or is curious, at least open-minded about it. And the other person is often someone who is sometimes more skeptical or that's not the world they live in, they've never been in any therapeutic process before.

And they're showing up as an expression of love. I want you to know that I care about us, and that's why I'm here. It's not because I want to be here, it's because I want to be with you. And this couple, they don't know where they stand. Everything is fraught. One moment it feels like they're in, and the next moment, everything unravels. It's a very, very shaky ground where I meet them. I think what I'm looking for, the reason why I applied

in the first place, we had one of our, one of many fights, the latest, right? And I said, you know, something needs to change. Either we go to therapy and we actually truly work on this or we just stay friends, raise the kid together, and like clear boundaries, we're not together, or we get strictly co-parent, we're not friends, We don't talk. Those are kind of my three options. I have to tell you, I am shocked that we are here right now because I never thought it would actually happen.

He, as usual, said, why is it always you go too far, you do too much? Why, why, why, you know? But I thought, the analogy I gave you, he's a car guy, was if you had the chance to meet with a renowned car builder, wouldn't you? This is a chance and an opportunity to see things a different way,

to get a different perspective. And I know I can tell you our problems from now until next Friday. Can I ask you something? In the midst of explaining to him why you did and why he should appreciate it, did you also tell him how much you appreciate that he's just coming along? No. All right.

Maybe that's where we start. Yeah, I am shocked and I do appreciate that you actually went along with us. I'm very curious as to your motivation. No, no, no. So it's kind of funny you mentioned that. No, we're going to do this differently. One moment. Is it okay? Because you, you just did what you typically both do.

In this case it's you, could be him. You explained yourself, you justified yourself, then you told him why he should appreciate what you do, and the piece that is missing is actually just simply I know whatever I did and whatever you may think about it it really means a lot that you hear. I appreciate you actually doing this. Yeah, you're welcome. And those are the little things that you know we talk about this often. Stay here. Not what happens often. It just happens. Okay.

Stay with that. I know I throw things at you all the time and I'm spinning. Mm-hmm. And that you thought this was another spin. And I appreciate you just going with it and not saying, F you, there's no way. You're out of your mind, you're crazy. You know, I do appreciate you just going along

with my crazy for once. Yeah, you're welcome. Thank you. And I'm... It's okay. My first thought, and I know this is wrong, is how am I going to be... No, don't go there. Okay. If it's not going to...

If it's more of the same, if it's what you usually do, which you both actually is the one thing you steadfastly agree on, that it really doesn't work, then don't do it. Oh, okay. You need change. How are you feeling? It's nice that, you know, the acknowledgement of me being here is a, you know, I'm trying. I'm not trying to blame you all the time for everything. You know, it's just, it's nice that you see

that that little thing that I did was, it's actually fighting for our relationship. And that's how I show, you know, that I love and respect you, is by doing things like that, but it just never gets. It just did. It did, you're absolutely right. Then go to the never. you know, that I love and respect you, is by doing things like that, but it just never gets. It just did. It did, you're absolutely right.

Then go to the never. Yeah, I hear what you're saying. You know, and it's nice. And I frequently only see things through my lens. Like he didn't, he didn't, he didn't, he didn't. And it's hard for me to see, oh, he did. Because he acknowledges that I'm asking for this. And that I...

He said more to you. He said, I'm fighting for our relationship. Oh, but I hear that, but my brain immediately goes to the other 300,000 things that you're not. And that's, I think my acts of service and my acts of showing love and respect, you don't receive because you just think that that is like, I guess, like baseline, like that's like entry level. Yeah. Yeah. I understand. you just think that that is like, I guess like baseline, like that's like entry level.

You know, and like your, I guess you would call it quote unquote love languages, like being wined and dined and lots of attention being spent, affection, and you know, that kind of stuff. And I'm more of a service oriented person, you know, fixing your faucets. Still got to do that. I get that, I get that. But I was raised, you know, fixing your faucets. Still gotta do that. I get that, I get that.

But I was raised, you know, those were the things that were done within a relationship that show, you know, love and respect and... Care. Care for one another is when you're doing, it's just everyday mundane things that to me show the most. I don't think to take you on your $600 dinners and that kind of stuff, to me that doesn't

really show. Anybody can do that. That's not something, that's not a shared thing that you want to do. But going back to… No, no, no. But… I'm not allowed to say that. Okay. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, in the back and forth between blame and defensiveness and attack. When they actually acknowledge something, what they've been asking for is actually right there. It's so difficult for us to actually stay in that moment. We instantly go to the,

usually, but the other times, but yesterday, but the thousands of other things I want from you that you're not doing. I think this session is a session that everybody can relate to. We've all done this and been there, some version or another. We start by creating a different quality of listening. You both say a ton of things, but you don't listen well.

And listening shapes the talking. The quality of each of your listening is what shapes the quality and The quality of each of you listening is what shapes the quality and the kind of talking that comes back from the other side. My friend Paul Brody describes speaking is what enters into the bowl. It's the thing that you pour into a bowl. But listening is the shape of the bowl that

actually defines where the water or where the words will land. So said in another way, he says something, how I listen to it, interpret it, understand it, internalize it is what is important there. Essential. And vice versa. Right. So before we do this loop, something that I want to clarify, you are divorced. Correct. You were married.

You were married. We were married. For eight years. You divorced. About a year, almost two years ago, you're okay. And now? Do you want to tell the story real quick? What do you mean?

She's just asking if we're like back together or not. I don't know what. Yeah, so we're straight together. Neither do I. We're together, so I do not know either. Really? Yeah. Oh, okay.

I thought we were like dating, trying to figure it out. Trying to figure it out is what confuses me. I don't know what that means. So my answer would be yes, we split up for about a year. I moved with our son about 10-15 minutes away. We stayed very close. How many are you? Right, I have two older and then we have a son together and the two older are now out, college and whatnot. How old is the son that you have together? Nine.

Okay, and lives with you. Okay. Yeah. So, we were, you know, ups and downs. There was of course some animosity through the divorce proceedings. Of course, yeah. Yeah, there was, but at the end of the day,

we were working pretty well together. Now, I have to bring it up. I started dating, I guess last summer, and he found out about it, immediately came to me and said, you were sorry for a lot of the stuff that went on in our marriage, first time you ever. Said, and immediately I was like,

come here, let's try. Immediately, like, there was, in hindsight, I'm not even gonna go there, but there was no question, right? On your, yeah, but. You said, I'm sorry, and I was like, okay. Right, and then like we went right back into it, and that wasn't my intention.

I know. Like, that was like we went right back into it and that wasn't my intention. I know. Like that was my, that was honestly my moment of letting go and letting her move on and finding what she needs because in my mind, we are very different people. What do you think it said that when you came and you took some responsibility over some of the things that you thought were yours, that that opened her heart unequivocally.

What did that say? I know we love each other, right? I know that 100%. I'm not fighting against, you know, is she a bad person or is she worthy or anything like that? Like, it's nothing to do with that. It's just literally how we interact on a daily basis, which I'm not going to do that to myself again.

And I did realize, like, when I was apologizing to her throughout the divorce, I was never at peace with myself because of all the internal conflict within our relationship. And when I found that peace again, I realized like, Oh, I did a lot of things that were spiteful, stubborn, that did not contribute to a smooth relationship. And I realized that and that's what I was apologizing for. Things kind of just went from there. And then once we got back into it,

I mean, I don't even think it was 30 days and I started noticing like up, we're right back into the cycle. May I ask you? Sure. Stubborn, spiteful. what do you know about it? In you? In me? Yeah.

For a very long time, instead of trying to eradicate that from my consciousness, I relied on it to get me through a lot of hard times. In life. In life, yes. Regardless of her. Yep. Good. Can you tell me more about that?

Yeah, I mean, that's just how I was raised. I got a very sketchy background. Give me the brief story. Mother had me when she was 17. Probably I'm a product of rape, I'm pretty sure. My biological father was a Vietnam, obviously we would call PTSD nowadays, druggy, alcoholic, committed suicide when my sister was born.

So I was 18 months old. My mom met my stepfather, who, great man, you know, but again, blue collar, Irish, you know, for lack of a better term, white trash, you know, like very, you know, dock workers, you know, that kind of stuff. So we were raised in that environment, biker gang, you know. Father moved us out to a small suburban town and we just paycheck to paycheck. He was always working.

My mother kind of had her problems with addiction and just coping with her past life, you know. And we just grew up, you know, kind of yelling and fighting and very loud. It just was how I was raised. Some of it was a gift. Some of it left me with bad coping mechanisms and traits and you know, that kind of stuff. I never went to college.

I fought my way into the corporate world, did very well for myself, opened up my own business. I never would be able to do those things if I wasn't raised how I was raised. With that stubbornness, that fighting every day for what you want, it's my past. I can't do nothing about it, it is what it is. Except that it's not your past. It's my present and future too.

I got it. When you look back at the kid who was in a rather chaotic environment and who needed to have a clear sense of what the hell is going on here. Right. How old is he? Who?

Five through 20. If you pick one moment. Eight or nine. Eight or nine. Eight or nine, it was a pretty big incident. Yeah. That happened in my house. Where is he?

Tell me what you see. So he was, my dad came home pretty tuned up one night and my mom always had a problem with his drinking because of her past. The alcoholism ran rampant through the family. So she was trying to deal with that, clean up, get away from that herself stage. So like my dad wouldn't even be able to have

one or two beers. And when it did, it was a problem. She would dig at them, you know, push them, push them, push them, push them. And she pushed them way too far one night. And... It's okay. You just saw it. I watched, you know, he didn't hit her,

but he definitely, you know, threw her on the bed and then he had like a nervous breakdown. And it was just like, you know, his voice went up like 10 octaves, sounded like a woman, you know, just, why are you doing this to me? And da, da, da, and you know, and at the time, like I didn't know what to do. So I ran out of the house and my neighbor

who kind of raised me, like as a second son, he was outside. So I yelled and come running over and he like, he broke things up and he took my dad out of the house. And you know, that was just kind of like, what the fuck moment? Yeah, like what is going on here? So yeah, that was kind of like,

I guess we'd be the start of... Fixing. Fixing, yeah. Yeah, it was rough. And my mom is a tough woman, man. Like she's a tough cookie. And I argue with her and I make it a point to argue with her. So we, to this day, we still go back and forth and, you know.

Any resonance with the way you argue with your wife? I'm loud. I'm loud. I don't scream. Like I'm not, she considers it screaming. She comes from a very soft household, you know, soft spoken. My volume, it's not an indicator of my emotion. It's just, it's-

You're a nine year old today. If he hears you yell like that or raise your voice like that. He gets, yeah, he gets upset. He gets upset. Yeah, he definitely recoils a little bit, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So when you see him, you can see you. Me?

You can see the nine year old that was. The nine year old version of you. And when you want to, you want to understand the effect you have on him. That scene will help you. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Because you felt it in your nervous system just now. Yeah.

And you saw it. And you were right back there. You were not just remembering, you were reliving. Yeah, that is true. So then tell me how the growth of these three responses, stubborn, defensive, spiteful, tell me about them. How did they become so important, so necessary. And what do you think you fight for?

Not what you fight about. I just like to fight. If I see something wrong, or if I think somebody's being slighted, I'm going to fight. Yes, that's an easy one. But since you fight just for a separate opinion, you fight. You fight and every conversation is life or death. Me or you. So it's not just when you see wrong or injustice.

Every difference is turned into conflict. No. Okay. No. Okay. No, so I honestly do value other people's opinions and I am always in for a healthy debate. Like I am very open-minded to different thoughts and views, you know, when things are thoughts and views

and not actual problems, I guess. Like if you have to, if there's a problem that needs to be solved, you know, I know that this is gonna solve this problem. I will fight to get that problem solved. But in your mind, it's totally obvious that that difference of opinion is something to fight over. This was a super important moment

because I actually was amplifying on what he had just said. I fight the fight. But something in the way I worded it, he didn't recognize himself when I said any difference can be a source of conflict, even though it's exactly where they go right after. And he says, I disagree. And that was very important because it meant he feels safe enough, he trusts me enough that he can fight with me.

Not really fight, but that he can disagree with me and hold his own. And that is so important. We have to take a brief break. Stay with us. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Shopify. If you've ever dreamt of starting a business, it usually starts with a good product. An often overlooked element is actually the business behind the business that makes selling easy. For lots of companies, that business is Shopify. According to their data, Shopify can

help you boost conversions up to 50% with their ShopPay feature. That means fewer people abandoning their online shopping cards and more people going through with the sale. If you want to grow your business, your commerce platform should be built to sell wherever your customers are. Online, in-store, in their feed, and everywhere in between. Businesses that grow, grow with Shopify. Upgrade your business with Shopify.

Sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com slash esther. All lowercase. Go to shopify.com slash esther to upgrade your selling today. shopify.com slash esther. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Masterclass. There are lots of ways to satiate your curiosity and grow your knowledge. But one of the best ways is to learn from someone with seasoned knowledge of their own. You can start with Masterclass.

They offer a wide variety of classes and subjects from more than 200 instructors that you can learn from. For example, John Kabat-Zinn, one of the pioneers in mindfulness meditation. You can actually take both of our classes on Masterclass, mine on relational intelligence and his on mindfulness and meditation. For just $10 a month, billed annually, a membership with Masterclass gets you unlimited access to every instructor. And you can access Masterclass on your phone, your computer, your smart TV, or even in audio mode.

Right now, you get an additional 15% off the annual membership at masterclass.com slash begin. That's 15% off at masterclass.com slash begin. Masterclass.com slash begin. Support for this show comes from Visit St. Pete Clearwater. Finding the perfect vacation is all about striking the right balance of relaxation and exploration. For your next unforgettable vacation, look no further than St. Pete Clearwater on Florida's Gulf Coast.

As the home to America's favorite beaches, St. Pete Clearwater boasts 35 miles of sugar-white sand with tranquil emerald-green gulf waters. Most destinations, were they so blessed, would likely talk about nothing else. But St. Pete Clearwater isn't like most destinations. It's far more. Enjoy memorable meals from local fish shacks and world-class restaurants. Take in compelling art and unparalleled museums and more than 500 murals. Stay at legendary hotels and laid-back beach resorts. Witness 200-mile-per-hour IndyCar racing and serene nature preserves.

Experience idyllic days and electric nights. The contrasts never end, yet they complement each other beautifully. In St. Pete Clearwater, find just what you're looking for and electric nights. The contrasts never end, yet they compliment each other beautifully. In St. Pete Clearwater, find just what you're looking for and then some. Go to visit SPC.com to explore more and book your trip. The Philadelphia fight was a good one. That would be a great example. It's the reason why I applied this. This fight is what triggered it off. That's nice. How did you come here?

The Philadelphia fight. Yeah. Yeah. Chapter, chapter one. All right. Chapter one. I'm all ears. So we were, we were vacationing.

Don't give me the long version. Okay. Yeah. So basically we're, we're coming back from Quebec and we were stuck in the car together for 10 hours and we got onto, I despise sports. I hate them. So somebody said, Philadelphia fans have the reputation of destroying the city, whether they win or not,

over a football game. And I was like, that's trash. Like those people, that's trash to me. Chapter two. Chapter two is her. This is, so, it was trash to me. Chapter two is her. She has. This is so it was Superbowl Sunday. I'm a huge Eagles fan family. We're all Eagles fans.

And yes, I think it's funny. And I think it's okay. Chapter three. Yeah. He said people in Philadelphia are trash. I'm a higher caliber. They are gross. Even if you're not doing that,

you're still condoning it by saying it's funny, blah, blah, blah. And I said, it doesn't bother me. I think Philadelphia's fantastic. Culture, the food, it's a great scene. It's gritty, it's dirty. I love it. Chapter five.

And she definitely said that, and I did not take it like that. Okay. What I heard was, is she started, instead of looking at the, the, the generalization that I was making, she started giving me examples of why. My generalization was wrong. And which any generalization I take it technically wrong. Right. And she started giving me specific examples of why. And which any generalization I take it technically wrong. Right.

And she started giving me specific examples of why I didn't agree, didn't agree. And then his voice got raised and then I shut down. Right. Yeah. Thank you. Now, what happens in this argument? If I lift the hood, I know squat about cars, but I'm going to try a metaphor with you. I lift the hood and I'm saying, what is going on here? What would you say?

Why is this guy personalizing this whole thing? So in my mind, I was voicing an opinion of myself and others. It could have been, yeah, yeah, I see what you're saying. And yeah, I don't agree with that, but you know, it wasn't that it was, she, she had to try to prove my generalization wrong, which it's an opinion. It's not wrong. And then she starts trying to change my opinion and that's where I'm like

No, like I'm not. Okay. Yeah That's that's how I took it. But why did you take it personally? You did too. I did and I fully I was telling the story to my mom and she was like, are you out of your mind? Miss what do you mean? She goes just be like cool, cool, give him the double finger and you're done. Which was, and it's funny she says that because after the debacle happened, I was like, all right, let me change the subject. You know, like, we'll move on. And I tried breaking bread, extending the olive branch, and I got, I just want to go

home. At that which point we sat in the car silent for 10 hours, which with the kid in the back is now making him think like, whoa, this isn't good. And then I started thinking, of course, we're riding home in silence, like, damn, here we are again, you know, same shit from five years ago. Do I really want to repeat the cycle? Do I really want to get on this carousel and continue this? And then I voice my opinion about that.

And then it turns into, well then just break up with me. Just break up. I'm like, no, that's not what I'm. This is the pattern that I see. And tell me where I'm wrong here. Just- No, no, no, no, no. Don't set it up.

You're setting it up for a battle before you've even said a word. Oh. I didn't think about that. You invite each other into a boxing ring. We do. We do. You are not nearly that different as he thinks you are. You do the same back and forth, and each one of you is making the other one do more of

the exact thing that you don't want them to do. You are not different, and your differences are not your problem. No. Your differences of opinion or of tastes or of background, that is not what is problematic. What's problematic that I see now just on a very short chapter one is that you escalate in no time. You personalize everything. You don't distinguish between facts or subjective opinion, experience, feelings.

It's all one and the same. You live in an antagonistic adversarial framework. And underneath that is deep feelings, deep love, deep care, deep appreciation. But boy, they don't get to see the sun very often. And the two of you live like two threatened people. And your boy sits in the back of the car and watches this for ten hours. And he is looking at you. And no matter what you decide, together or not together, lovers, not lovers, all of that, you will have to think, what do we show him? Yeah.

Yeah? Yeah. So, because what you show him is what you watched in your version of it. Different story, but the nine-year-old is the nine-year-old. And that nine-year-old is terrified. That nine-year-old doesn't know what to do with what's in front of him. Yeah. Whether they are on shutdown mode and don't say a word to each other, or whether they are in explosion pounding mode. Yeah. in explosion pounding mode. Yeah.

Here was a moment where I made a choice, which was I could have continued in the exploration of the child that lives inside each of them. That is that threatened child that feels that they have to fight for themselves all the time. But I was also thinking about the actual child that they have, that is sitting for 10 hours in the car with his parents not uttering a single word. And I thought, I'm going to talk to the parents instead. I'm going to talk to the adults.

And hopefully the adult part of them can hear me in this moment. I'm going to rally for them and with them about engaging the more mature, responsible adult part inside of them. Even though I know that I would need to help them have a different relationship with the part of them that is that child that they once were, but I'm going to park myself temporarily in this spot. You punch at each other. Yes. I escalate. You want to come at me, I'm going to come right back at you.

And I'm going to beat you. And we're very competitive in that way. What's your line? Nobody's going to make me what? Do anything. Every personality test I've ever taken for work, I have to be in control. I do not like people telling me, or I'm going to do it my way. Everything's fine.

I'm going to figure out a way. I'm going to do it my way. My way's better. I can figure this out. And what's the story behind that? I think I've always just been an overachiever. My parents never worried about me. I'm fine. I'm gonna get straight A's.

I'm gonna be in this program and that program. I'm gonna do this, that, and the other. Until teenager, they split up and I rebelled. Definitely rebelled. How? Boys, drugs, teenage stuff, skipped in school. And then I waitressed and I hustled. I had two kids young and got into the industry I'm in now and just used- Which is?

I'm in now and just used. Which is? I'm in insurance sales. Corporate, very corporate environment, I have to hustle and I can do it. And it's not easy when I come to him with the complaints that I think most people have about their jobs. I don't want him to tell me, and instead of being open to his feedback, I get resentful

because I don't need you to tell me how to fix. Of course I have it under control. This is me. It's under control. I get mad. You do? I get very upset when you talk about your job and I do because she is she isn't a top 1% earners of the country. She makes an extremely amount of money with no college degree. She got there because of who she is but then when she's bitching about her job and like these little meanie little things that piss her off. I'm just like, you are so ungrateful.

You're crazy. People would kill to have your job and to be where you're at right now. Appreciate it. And that starts a fight. That's a, that's a recurrent one. Yeah, that's a recurrent one. That's like a huge thing. And it's just like, you know,

It's any time I have a feeling. I have a feeling. I feel scared and hurt and lonely. Your feelings aren't valid. So don't feel that way. Well, that goes back to the, that goes in the beginning of the conversation where she's not recognizing my acts of service as caring, loving acts. And I get that I'm not the most affectionate person.

I'm not, I'm not a PDA guy. When she had her hand on your shoulder before, did you feel it? I did, but like because of the position we're in right now and the amount of uncertainty doesn't feel genuine. It doesn't feel like she's like reaching out to come for me or anything. I don't know how to take it. You know, I just don't know how to. That's different. Yeah. That's very different. From it doesn't feel genuine is not the same as I'm afraid to believe in it. I'm afraid what it means. I'm afraid to surrender to it.

I'm afraid to actually accept it because it's what I so long for. Yeah. And are still, you know, like she's so she's very emotional. Right. She is very emotional. So in moments of emotion like this, you know, it's hard to decide because she's getting into and she can flip and she can be very cold. Right. So it's, what am I getting into?

What is going on here? So I definitely kind of recoil and that probably actually makes me more callous because I don't know how to react or what she's looking for. So you both hold each other on high alert all the time. Oh, I'm so scared. She can go from hot to cold, but you can go from supportive to callous. And you wonder why this doesn't feel very safe and why it becomes so impossible to trust.

Because if I accept and trust and lean into what's happening just now, God forbid what may happen in the second after that I didn't anticipate. So I'm just going to keep myself in the boxing ring. I'm going to avoid he runs. I just don't, he runs. I just don't wanna fight. You drop the bomb and runs. And you're right into the I'm hot and cold. I will scream, I love you, this hurt my feelings.

I ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba ba. And then when I realized it's not happening, I'm not getting the reaction, he's not hearing me, I go internal. I shut it down and I'm like, well then, apieu, I'm not calling you back, I'm not talking to you, and it's in my head. And then I spin for days, days, and then I'm scared.

Days, days, and then I'm scared. Each of them is able to describe their behavior, what they do, what happens to them. They may not necessarily connect the dots to what is actually being activated for them, but they are very insightful and honest and able to be accountable for it. So the choice here again, I decide I'm going to emphasize the similarities. I'm going to emphasize what they do well.

Because they're so mired in the mud and in what's broken, and they are divorced, and they have come with one question. Are we salvageable? We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break. So stay with us. This is advertiser content brought to you by the all new Nissan Murano. Okay, that email is done.

Next on my to-do list, pick up dress for Friday's fundraiser. Okay, all right, where are my keys? Oh, in my pocket. Let's go. First, pick up dress, then prepare for that big presentation, walk dog, then... Okay, inhale. One, two, three, four, exhale. One, two, three, four. Ooh, who knew a driver's seat could give such a good massage? Wow, this is so nice. Oops, that was my exit. Oh well, that's fine.

I've got time. After the meeting, I gotta remember to schedule flights for our girls' trip. That's for later. Sun on my skin, wind in my hair. I feel good. Turn the music up. Your all-new Nissan Murano is more than just a tool to get you where you're going. It's a refuge from life's hustle and bustle. It's a place to relax, to reset, in the spaces between items on your to-do lists.

Oh wait, I got a message. Could you pick up wine for dinner tonight? Yep, I'm on it. I mean, that's totally fine by me. Play Celebrity Memoir Book Club. I'm Claire Parker. And I'm Ashley Hamilton. And this is Celebrity Memoir Book Club.

When you're getting ready for an exotic, international vacation, there are a few things you don't want to forget. Bathing soup? Check. Sunglasses? Check. The new getaway mix from Hi-Chew? Check and check.

Hi-Chew Getaway Mix is a bold new lineup of immensely fruity, intensely chewy flavors from the world's most innovative candy makers. With flavors like Mango Chamoy, Mai Tai, and Yuzu Lime, Haichu Getaway Mix is your ticket to flavor adventure. Whether you're going around the world or relaxing around the house, Haichu Getaway Mix is the perfect travel companion. Buy the all-new Haichu Getaway Mix now at Haichu.com and at select retailers nationwide. Support for this show comes from Degree. We all have those days that feel like a never-ending to-do list — meetings, workouts, events — and you can only catch your breath during those

in-between areas of a packed schedule. Well, when you're on the go all day, scents can start to gather in all those in-between areas of your body. But with some help from Degree, when you catch a whiff of yourself on your next errand, it'll be a lovely aroma that refuels your confidence. Degree Whole Body Deodorant Spray offers all-day odor protection for your pits, chest, thighs, and more. It provides 72-hour odor control and is dermatologist-tested and free of aluminum. It's designed to leave less residue and dries quickly after spraying with a light and refreshing

feeling on your skin. Whether you're hitting the gym, assembling furniture or hauling groceries, Degree Whole Body Deodorant Spray can keep you feeling fresh everywhere you go as you check off your to-do list. Buy the new Degree Whole Body Dior for under $10 at Walmart now. So here's the thing I want to highlight just for a moment. You have managed to talk about your relationship, highs and lows, mine and yours, in a very collaborative way. You've managed to talk about your dance without slipping into it. And you're able

to say, I know I do this and I know I do that. So this, to me, is goal number one. Because it doesn't matter what you're going to do. If you don't change the filter, the gutter will get more full. Yeah. And you miss each other and you're persistent. You've done this for 10 years, Scott. It's not like you met yesterday. Yeah. All right. Let me ask you this. If each of you could pick one thing that you know if you did it differently the relationship would shift.

I could say. How would it be? Let her go first on this one. What I think would change our relationship that That you would like to focus on. It's noticing you for you and being curious about what brought you there, what brought you to when you say a statement, oh, where'd that come from? Oh, tell me about that.

Without preparing a dissertation on why you should consider other things and why that's not technically correct, it would be literally just being curious about where you're going and appreciating what you're saying without trying to prove you wrong. Even when we have very different opinions. When you start off on a political rant, and I shouldn't even call them rants, I guess. Yeah, it comes out as a rant,

but I'm talking myself through it. Like, I might not have the conclusion in my head right then and there. You know, when I explain those things to you, like when I say something that you take as an offense or... Unloving. Unloving or something like that. I wish you could just take a step back and say, am I perceiving this wrong?

I'm struggling big time right now. I know. Because I think that if you were to go into the court of evidence, if you were to say, here, let me present the evidence, does this man care about this woman? And put the evidence in front, unanimously the answer is no. Is it?

Is it? Or could somebody look at it? That's my perception. Right, or could somebody look at it from the other lens and say, you know, he does this, he does this, he does this, he does this, and they can point to things that I do to show that I do appreciate you and love you and... I know that I should see what you do as love

in my brain. I'd rather you sit on the couch in my brain, I'd rather you sit on the couch put in with me, I'd rather be in fact, there's so many other things. I miss you and we haven't connected in so long. I know. Because you're angry at that. I'm not angry.

I'm not angry. Again, I just. angry. I'm not angry. Again, I just... May I? Yes. Thank you. When you talk together, and look how long you do and it goes fine, but then there is that moment where one of you says one thing the other one doesn't agree with.

And of the nine things you agree with, you don't say a thing. But on the one thing that you can't see yourself reflected in, that's the one you pick up on. Okay. So that is going to create more distance. I don't think you did this consciously, by the way. I don't think you intended this at all. That's why I'm highlighting it for you. So what I, what I, what in my mind, what happened there was...

You wanted to reassure her that you're not mad and that she doesn't... And that the, and then spill into the reasons why. Yeah. That's, that's more of the explanation. You are so mired in explaining yourself and justifying yourself and being sure it's accurate. When in fact, if you actually said, me too, I don't know if it's true, but if it's true that you say I too miss us and miss connecting, you would have a whole different moment.

Yeah, I understand what you're saying. Okay, shall we try it again? Yes. All right. I want those things too, like I really do. That's why I'm here. I want us to have that. I want that spark, I want that intimacy. It's hard sometimes.

It really is. Like I'm, you know, I told you this before we came here. Like I'm very on the defense and I don't know what's gonna happen and breaking up again would just be like I went through the whole divorce again and I don't, you know, in my brain, I guess that thinks that if I keep a certain distance, it's not going to suck as much if we don't work out. And I also know that, you know, that is not helping

the situation. So, you know. Everything that I did to you before with everything that I did to you before, with everything that I did when we were married. It wasn't all bad. I don't wanna do it. I don't wanna do it either. The reason I'm here is I wanna be able, I want you to see me differently, not like I'm this needy, difficult person.

of this needy, difficult person. I don't necessarily think you're a needy, difficult person. I don't like the person I was perceived as in the relationship. I was always the bad guy. I don't wanna go back there. You were the bad guy. No, you're right, I'm agreeing with you. I'm not saying, I'm agreeing with you.

I did always demonize you. I did always demonize you I did always say aren't I perfect? The question I would like to ask you is it's one thing to say nobody's gonna make me but it's another thing To ask yourself why do I need to be perfect? Oh Because fundamentally you think you're always right or misjudged. You operate from a place of I can't make mistakes. This is why this curiosity bit is so important for you, because it puts you in a zone of not knowing for a moment, of being uncertain, of being open to the unknown,

to exploring, to discovering that there's something else, rather than needing to know immediately. It's annoying. I annoy myself with it. But that started early on. Yeah. I'm all this daughter, so there's that. And I was just the good one.

The responsible one. The one that handles it. And even now, I'm the one who plans family vacations for our extended family and pays for it and organizes everything and makes dinner reservations and da da da da da da and then I get, I didn't even really get a thank you for that. I get resentful. I do it at work too. I didn't even really get a thank you for that. I get resentful. I do it at work too, that I have to be perfect.

The expectation of the best is there. I feel it internally all day, every day. Like I am thinking about what I have to do next. What is the best? I am thinking about what I have to do next. What is the best? How can I manipulate the situation to get what I want? To get what I think is the best thing? The war in my head says if he would just let me do it, everything would be great. And adore you for it.

Yes, please. Please. Please. You know? Let me do it and then say thank you very much for doing that. And then be really, really loving and affectionate. Right. And anything short of that crushes you.

Oh, I feel it. I feel it. I feel it. I feel very judged and unloved and feel like I'm a failure. Yeah. By you or by him? By him. Of course.

Yes. The phrase that is used often is, you can't love me the way I wanna be loved. That's the recurring thing throughout the years. When I listen to her, I'm reminded of the drama of The Gifted Child. It's a book I read a long time ago by Alice Miller. It's the book that really introduced me to

the concept of conditional love. It's not that she needs to be perfect, it's only as much as how perfect do I need to be before I can finally receive the love of my parent. That is the conditional love. I can only be loved if I'm pleasing, if I satisfy you, if I take care of you, if I do everything. And if I do it so perfect that you don't have to worry about me once, she said this now a few times. I do everything, nobody has to worry about me. I raise myself and I am left with the whole wondering, what does it take to be loved? And that's why she says, you can't love me the way I want to be loved. And I chose that as the title for the session.

Because if we were to meet again, this is where we would go. How were you unloved? What is it that you're wanting him to make up for? What is the rage that kicks in for you every time he misses the clue and he, in a way, reinforces your worst belief about yourself that no matter how perfect and accomplished and worthy and responsible you are you still can't be loved the way you want to. And then you find yourself a partner who keeps telling you, I love you plenty, but I do it this way.

I do it with service. I do it this way. And unbeknownst to him, every time he says, but this is my love language, he's reinforcing your belief that he really cannot love you the way that you want to. And that's one of the pinpoints of this relationship. So you each do things that actually make the other person respond in the way that you actually want the least. Yes. Yes. Right? So I have to start from a place of appreciating what is done.

It would change a lot. Do you think it would change a lot with how you interact with me? Yeah. I mean any difference is going to enact a change. But that means that each of you needs to decide, I'm going to do this. This is back to the question I asked you before. What's one thing you would do differently? Because in effect where you land in the gutter is that each of you feels rejected, unappreciated and rejected. Yes. If that's the case, you have your answer about whether you should stay together or not. On the other end, that doesn't mean that you're going

to do better with somebody else, because these are skills you need to learn. You can explain them from the past and we can do a lot of insight, which that is what you would also do with a therapist. But ultimately, there needs to be a change in the way you respond. And that means in the way you listen. Do you ever speak with your hands? Do you reach out with your hands to her? I don't touch people. I'm not like that. You don't touch at all.

I really don't. I don't really do calming, soothing. That doesn't really work for me. Meaning? I don't need that. I don't need to be touched. I don't need to feel needed or wanted or comfortable, accepted. So I guess because I don't need it, I don't give it,

which I know is probably a problem. Yeah. Does your boy need it? What's that? Does your little boy need it? Yeah, he comes up to me a lot. Right. He comes up and he'll snuggle me, he comes up to me a lot. He comes up and he'll snuggle me,

I'll snuggle him right back, you know, but if it's not initiated, I don't. So you see him, that was once you. Yeah. You need it. You may have learned not to. Probably. You may have had not to. Probably. You may have had hands put on you that didn't feel very clear.

No. I was hit a lot. By? Parents. Both? Yeah. But I fully deserved it. And that's kind of where I think she thinks I'm going to go there, but I don't. I don't really have the need to. Go where?

Like hitting kids and stuff. I'd kill you. Right. And I know it makes me super uncomfortable the times you have hitting. Yeah. It was just a spanking, like, don't do that again kind of thing. It wasn't like fit of rage or anything like that. It's scary though. You know it is. I know where you're coming from and I know what you're...

But when you get upset, it's scary for him, for me. You're a very intimidating and scary person. Yeah. And I'm like the timid one in the family. I don't do half the stuff my parents did. That just means that they did more extreme things. Yeah. And that your body shut down.

I've noticed the only time he will touch me voluntarily is if we're having sex or about to have sex or you want to have sex. It's the only time. It really doesn't dawn on me. Like it doesn't. Again, because it's not... I don't need that to feel a certain way. Listen. I feel close. There may be times when you're not thirsty. But you may offer someone a glass of water. Yeah. Yeah.

So this notion of I don't need it, therefore I don't do it, and therefore this is it. Oh no, no, no, no, I'm not saying that at all. I do realize that I probably should do that because she needs that, like absolutely. But it's just not, it wasn't programmed into me to do that. No, it was programmed out of you. Out of me, I mean it was programmed out of me.

It was programmed out of you. Yeah. Whatever you see when you look at your little nine year old is quite similar to what you once needed and loved. Right. Yeah, it makes sense. Yeah. And there's no doubt that on the moments

when she's spinning and getting agitated or anxious to hold her and not say anything would go a long way. Yeah. Because it would communicate in the most basic way. You're not alone. I'm right here. Because it would communicate in the most basic way, you're not alone. I'm right here. Right. You don't have to hold it all on your shoulders.

I would hear that or feel that as so much more comforting than you telling me how to fix it. It would help you tremendously and it would change the whole cycle. But you also need to know that when you emote for him, that signals shut down. I know, I don't know why though. Because that's what it was like there.

So it really has nothing to do with me being... It's the implicit memory. It does have to do with you because you are agitated. But his response to you doesn't come from you. His response comes from how he learned to protect himself basically. So he shuts down. At a time when you would want him

to put his arms around you is when his shoulders go up, his neck goes down, his tension comes in, his breath becomes more shallow. Shut every feeling down and use intellect, which of course doesn't work on you at all. Yeah, I don't know. It just makes you more agitated, which is making him repeat himself for the entint time and reason again, because everything else is really holding it

together. And he has a nine-year-old, but so do you. And these nine-year-olds end up having a relationship with each other. Yeah. So the adults need to calm them down. While you're asking something that is totally legit and understandable, there's also a part of you that may want to even go to him and say, I'm all over the place, hold me. You can even ask. Or you can learn to hold you for a moment so that you can come down one notch, which then gives his body a different message, which may allow him to then come more closer. You know, this is a circle. Yeah.

So whichever place you do a small shift, all the other pieces will need to adjust. Where should we begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julian Att. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker.

We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller and Jack Saul. Support for this show comes from Nike. Nike puts a spotlight on those fearless athletes who defy expectations, rewrite the rules and inspire the world through unapologetic greatness. Their So Win campaign showcases the power of audacious dreams and relentless pursuit.

Here's a preview of the campaign, featuring athletes like Sophia Wilson, Mallory Swanson, Paige Becker, and Juju Watkins. You can't be confident, so be confident. You can't challenge, so challenge. You can't challenge. So challenge. You can't dominate. So dominate. You can't flex.

So flex. You can't fill a stadium. So fill that stadium. Whatever you do, you can't win. So win. So every time someone says you're too much, that you shouldn't be so big, so competitive So win. So every time someone says you're too much, that you shouldn't be so big, so competitive, so dominant on the field, you do it anyway.

Because an athlete's mindset and hard work speaks louder. Go to Nike.com to learn more and see their So Win collection. system with its highly anticipated awards. To learn more, visit the 2025 James Beard Awards Hub at jamesbeard.org slash awards. And be sure to watch the James Beard Awards from Chicago on June 16th at 5.30 PM Eastern, live on Eater.