Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - I Don't Mean to Be Mean, But...

Episode Date: December 23, 2021

She has no boundaries, he’s walled off. And their opposing communication styles cause immediate tension in this explosive session. So much so, that Esther finds herself adding to the chorus of angry voices. There might only be three people in this session, but Esther realizes she needs at least three more chairs for the in-laws whose voices and opinions are always playing in the background of this marriage.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real. I thought that to get married, you have a baby. It's like, that's, you know, the right thing to do. That's what you're supposed to do. My Jewish mother was always like,

you'll never have to worry if you marry him. You'll have a baby. You'll have a great life. And now I'm married and I have a baby. I thought that was like when everything would be good. My wife was pregnant and that's when I became unemployed. My father started a business and it was very successful. And I worked for him for the first seven years of my career.

We had a startup and we exited. And this all seemed to happen at the worst time, just when the pandemic started. It was difficult for me to get a job elsewhere. There's no real financial clarity on anything. I don't know what's happening. I feel like so alone with this man that I married. He was just kind of, I don't want to say this word, but I feel like he's kind of a dud. My wife can't really hold a secret in. And if she's feeling something, she'll say it. It's just that our conversations don't really end up going anywhere because we have them so much.

I know exactly what she's going to say next. She knows what I'm going to say. And when we do interact, she gets very mean. She calls me names. You know, that later affects our sex life. You know, we've never been very sexual. I'm only 32 years old, okay? I just don't know if it's a make it or break it thing.

And like I know right now, if I didn't have a baby with my husband, it would be 100% over because I'm so deeply unhappy. And I'm so afraid. I don't know what to do. What I know about this couple is that they are in their early 30s. They are recently married. They have had a baby during this pandemic year who is almost a year old. They are at loggerheads. They each blame the other for their disillusionment. She has plummeted from the Olympian expectations

that she had about marriage and family life, and he is no less disillusioned, but doesn't feel that he has any leg to stand on to make any demand at this moment. Tell me something. If this was a helpful conversation and you left tears and you said, this really moved the needle,

what would it be? What needs to happen? I don't know, maybe finding some middle ground or coming up with a plan. Yeah, I think I would find that helpful if you recommended what to do. Okay. So I have license to be more direct. I have license to help you be unstuck.

Yeah. I can't do anything without you. So this is an us. I just want to help you be unstuck. Yeah. I can't do anything without you. So this is an us. I just want to know if it's broken. Like, should we, like, do we have to be separated? Is this, is this going to work? I don't know if this is situational thing or if we literally have, I'm sorry, I don't want to be mean, but if this is the kind of thing where it's hopeless, you are better off as co-parents and moving on is the conversation that we have and then I go to my mom and my mom will tell me one thing and I go to my brother and my grandmother you know what I thought when I read your application I thought that next to you I

probably should put another three chairs minimum so. So bad. It's so true. Because you show up with a chorus. It's like every person I talk to. So basically, he rarely has a conversation with you alone. He does, but then I go back and I tell everyone. Yeah, so he doesn't. Yeah. He doesn't. When he talks to you, he hears a cacophony.

What is immediately apparent when I sit in front of them is that she is surrounded by a cast of characters, family members with whom she is very fused and with whom she discusses every detail of her relationship. For every thought, she knows all their thoughts to the point where she has no idea what she actually thinks, where she begins and where she ends. And when I look at him, I see a man who is very alone and who has always been very alone. There are no boundaries on her side.

One could describe her as boundaryless and one could describe him as walled off. Do you mind if I speak on that a little bit? Yeah. So you are being very polite. So she and her mother have always been best friends and spent a ton of time together. Mother comes over every day. Sometimes she asks me, but it happens regardless. As it relates to things we discussed about parenting, we end up doing what the mom says. And I don't really get a voice.

How old is your kid? He's one. Do you have a picture? Of her mom? No. Oh, yeah. Oh, God. Show the one that's there.

She really is a central figure. I understood. That's not a good pic. Okay. So you see, this little boy, he's watching you. I know, it's so bad. And he's learning from you. And you keep thinking that the challenge is between you and him. But it is.

And maybe not. This relationship is experiencing all the tension that is produced by your allegiances with all these other people to the point where it's not really sure who is married to whom. But the problem is, there's no stopping me. I've never really had to sit with my own emotions so about the situation as a result she can't she's very indecisive she can't make a decision because she's relied on someone else to help her um when she is very insecure because she relies on someone else to say you look skinny or um and so many things uh you know self-esteem, it's come down to the codependent relationship.

You know what's interesting? Every time one of you talks about the other. You win. Yes. So why do you continue? Continue what? Taking over and saying, let me describe you, because I can describe you better than you can describe yourself.

Because I felt that she would not most accurately touch upon her relationship with her mother. I know. Why didn't you wait and see first? That is a good point. But we've had this conversation before. I know. And I'm trying to see if you're capable of having a different conversation. I have a sense of the stories that you both tell. And interestingly, when you win, when it kind of feels like chalk on a blackboard, neither of you just says, maybe I should stop. It's intrusive it belittles the other person I hate to be I hate if I know this sounds mean but sometimes when I

hear him speak about my situation I'm so shocked because I'm like you're so out of touch with the actual problem that or he'll simplify it in a way that's really belittling and then okay but that's why I'm like I know but you were doing the exact same thing you were doing the exact same thing and you have got to look at what you each do. You're experts on each other. But you're not owning your own parts. Let's make one little agreement here. Yeah. There's going to be a boundary. And each of you is going to talk for yourselves.

That's a good idea. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. for yourselves. That's a good idea. We've only been together 10 minutes in which he's able to speak to the fact that she's indecisive, that she is unable to have a conversation with him. And she talks about how he belittles her

and how he simplifies everything. And the dynamic of attack and defense is quite immediately apparent. They are stuck in a very rigid cycle of blame and defense. Each one is so-called expert on the shortcomings of the other. I understand now why he said that he knows what she's going to say and she knows what he's going to say. There's no point in having a conversation because there is no conversation

because each one is actually speaking for the other. I think there's a lack of respect because of the way that things have deteriorated the past few years. So? And I wish it wasn't like that. It's not I wish. If you want to restore the respect, you have got to do it.

But I feel like things have to change. No, not things. Things is you and him and what you create together. But in my mind, I don't think he's acting in a way that would... Do your part. Start with you. I will tell you one of the interesting secrets of any couples therapy. Things change when you start to say what you are doing and how you are changing. As long as you each come in and you start to talk about what the other person is doing wrong and how they need to change,

nothing will move. That's it. But I think we have real problems, like a lack of complete intimacy for years. One person not working for a long time, hiding money. And I mean, I work a full-time job. I also freelance because I'm so in the dark about a financial situation around how we're going to raise a child. But somehow, everything is getting paid for. I have no clue how. He is not working. And I'm petrified.

I'm like, how are we going to make money? How are we going to be able, you know, my income isn't enough. I'm trying so hard to think of everything I can do so that he finds himself. I see how difficult it can be for him to think in her presence. But I'm also immediately aware of how desperate and frustrated she feels. How disillusioned, how far from all the beautiful things she thought her life would be. And here she finds herself saddled with responsibilities, wanting to do the best for everyone, fearing that she can't count on him. She is overwhelmed while he may be flooded and feeling ineffective. And I will say, it's easy when one hears the shrill to dismiss the request and the longing because of the style in which it is expressed. Her requests

all manifest as protests, and yet her requests are deep and real and valid. And it's also easy to think that her stress and her anxiety is internal and purely a manifestation of her personality, rather than a manifestation of the relational system in which she's living. When five other people inhabit her internal life, the anxiety gets compounded. So perhaps I could give you a little background to my work situation. I know that you worked with your dad for about 10 years. I know that you worked with your dad for about 10 years. I know that you sold the company.

And I know that since then you have not found a new gig. Your career is one thing. And what is the financial situation between the two of you? So I could be making anywhere. No, she's asking. She's asking about the trust funds that I don't know about. Okay. That's not the case.

The financial situation, which I have, I've collected all the papers. Besides the paperwork that you get, there's so many other trusts that your father has that he won't tell you just asking a very simple question what do you live on and do you have a shared sense of what you are living on and where it's coming from so I've had trusts before I told her exactly how much they they were for when I received them. And I told her how much savings we have. I have a joint checking account. Hold on one second, because you're trying something,

and you are not listening to a word he's saying. Because it's not true. You see, it's very interesting. If you're not cringing and wincing, then when one of you talks, the other person shakes their head. Because the amount of money he's talking about, the thing you're missing is your father doesn't tell you the true finances because he doesn't want you to know because he thinks it's going to make him not have any ambition.

So that's a huge problem. And now we did the same thing on the other side. You don't trust. He's going to tell, so you bring in what you consider the missing pieces like you did just before just in case you wonder because you're annoyed right now and you don't like the fact that she just kind of dismisses what you say but this was kind of the same thing in reverse and I am sitting here and I'm you know you're punching and I'm like feeling the tension in my own belly. We're having a conversation about their financial situation,

but it really is not about the topic itself. It doesn't matter if they're talking about sex or money or in-laws. What happens in this intense moment of dysregulation is that nobody is listening to anything the other person is saying. One person talks and the other person cringes in their seat, rolls their neck, shakes their head, their breath goes short. Their whole body is expressing the overwhelm, the inability to accept a different reality than their own. And each one is registering the other as creating deep distress inside of them and then not knowing what to do with it. And so it's impossible for each of them to say anything.

The whole thing is one big escalation in a form of emotional sadism between the two of them. I want to understand money, sex, family. But the topics won't matter if every time one of you talks, the other one shakes their hand. Because all what will matter is the dismissal with which you respond to each other. It's just hard for me because he speaks so slowly and i feel like he i'm so high energy i always just want to get the facts across what the fact i see is that when he talks you are shaking next to him so he can barely keep his straight his mind

straight i know i'm so angry i don't care the subject. Yes, but you don't know, you know, you collect, you collect. Anything else I could be angry about? Because he knows every single thing about my finances. And I don't understand how we're fine because the numbers he tells me, they don't match up. If you want her to stop, you need to ask her. I'm sorry. I believe that that is... No, no, you need to do it. May I stop you? Sure, I'm sorry. Not may I stop sorry. I believe that that is... No, no, you need to do it.

May I stop you? Sure, I'm sorry. Not may I stop you. I know, you're so beaten down for me. I feel horrible, but I'm also angry. Not may I stop you. What should I say? Just stop me.

I want to describe my situation myself. Okay. And could you please make the effort of managing your impatience and give me the courtesy of explaining my own situation? All that. No, no you don't borrow. You have to do it.

Give me the courtesy of explaining my own situation. Oh. Sorry. So that seems... It was good. Thank you. You're welcome. The goal at this moment is really not to help them talk about money or their financial situation.

The goal is for them to develop some basic skills about regulating together so they don't escalate. When he feels usurped that she took over because she doesn't trust he can tell his own story and she can do a better job at it, and he wants to reclaim it he has to take it kindly respectfully and assertively so he can draw the boundary of I own my story and I will tell it as I see it and I ask that you make space for me to do so and hopefully can hear it. And then I will hear your reaction to it.

So we start with very basic work around the boundaries, the delineation, the demarcation between the two of them. It goes so fast, each one cutting the other person off, I can barely keep it straight. And I start to experience the same dysregulation inside myself. I've been there before, and it's not a good place to be because I start to lose my therapeutic stance. I begin to act with them the way they act with each other. I'm inducted into the system.

Can you describe your relationship with your parents? My father, it's pretty tricky working with a family member, working for a family member. Seeing him every day in the office, he's my boss. At home, he's my father. That's a challenge. It is a big challenge. And for my brother, who is in that situation, that drove them apart. Your family is primarily four people? Yeah.

If there was a family photo? There was remarriage, divorce. Yeah, my father remarried and had a daughter. He had a daughter. His new wife. So your father and your mother divorced. Divorced, yes. I'm sorry, I forgot that. And your father remarried and you have a step-sister.

Yes. And how old were you when your parents separated? I was around 13. And how was that? It was a lot of change also considering we were living in the suburbs and after the divorce, we moved to the city. So it was just a lot of change very quickly. I had to find new friends, deal with the two houses situation. So you were uprooted. Yeah. rooted yeah can you i i think it's important you talk about your father your relationship with him like like how cold and scary it is so can i stop you one sec how did that how did that feel that was a good point that was really nice that was nice yes i thought it was mean no no that was... This would be helpful.

I think it is helpful. And it was passing it on to him. It felt caring. No, it didn't feel mean. What did you feel? I felt like I was being more respectful towards him. Okay. You were.

You were. It doesn't mean you don't have things you want to want to put an effort but it it felt more respectful yes and he felt it and he took it and he said yes let me do that because i just want to emphasize when you do it in a different way and in a way that obviously leads to a different outcome i don't want you to just just see places where you miss each other. That was just a nice micro moment. Yeah. In distressed relationships, the filters only keep the stuff that is negative.

And so it's very important when they have a shift in the interaction that is kinder, more caring, more soft, more tender to highlight it because sometimes it's such a wash that even they don't notice the difference. They're so used to the punches that their skin has become thick and they no longer feel the soft caresses. And this was a moment of a soft caress. Did you have to choose between your parents when they divorced? Did I have to choose? No. My father, I guess, kind of made the decision for us. He wasn't around as much. And how was that for you? I didn't really understand it at the time. He was supposedly also sick for three years or something.

I remember walking into his apartment and the lights would be off and he'd be in bed. It was a sad thing. So you lost your father rather suddenly. You lost your life. You lost your friend. You lost your life, you lost your friend, you lost your town, and you found yourself suddenly all alone. Then you learned not to ask for much.

I don't ask for much. That's right. But I did have my mother, who had her own health issues as well. When I was in middle school and maybe early high school, she had thyroid issues and she didn't know about it for a while so she was like depressed in bed. She didn't get up until like 11 a.m. each day and I was in the kitchen. Take your hand. And I was in the kitchen.

Hold it. Trying. I feel mad for him. And I was in the kitchen making cereal all by myself. Put it over here. Yeah, that's it. And press on it. He has to feed himself all the time. And take the things.

No, no. He will tell... He was too skinny. It's his life and he will tell his story. They think they can talk for you, but you will not talk for him. I will not find that really helpful if you do that. I know you think that I'm going slow, but by you doing that, it gets slower. So I had to feed myself every morning for three, four years, and she never saw her in the morning.

So I guess that would be my story. And it's a story that tells what about you? It's a story that I like to keep my emotions inside. Because? Because I never had a great support system. Because I had no one to go to. So sad. I never had a chorus.

You were really alone and too young to have to parent yourself. You needed parents. That's why you eat bagel bites all the time. He still eats Hot Pockets. I don't blame you. That's the thing. I feel bad. I know you do.

But you need to give him the space right now. Sorry. It is a dynamic in which she is a constant pursuer and he is a withdrawer. He doesn't know to claim the space and she doesn't know how to give the space. And I'm going back and forth between her stepping back and allowing him to just tell the story

of his own family. And with him, it's two things. On the one hand, it's a boundary by which he then claims his own story. And on the other hand, it's his holding her hand so that he can talk about how alone he was and felt without having to be alone in the moment. I know it looks like I am asking you about background, which I am, but I'm also learning where you learn to be the way you are. And that is what's happening to you today.

You, you, in fact, chose in such an interesting way, you chose someone who completely knows to reach out, who completely can ask for help, who never thinks her needs are irrelevant, and who has a chorus of people. And she chose someone who actually makes sure that her chorus remains on the orchestra seat while you get balcony.

She'll complain about you being in the balcony. She'll complain about you being in the balcony. But in fact, if you actually were as voiceful and vulnerable as these people, it would be mayhem. A lot of people say that I calm her down. I make her not so anxious and not so nervous. You can ground her i try and then there's negatives to that there's you won't know when things get better if you continue to shake your head even when he's doing exactly what you keep asking him to do what i want him to do is get a job and be functional and be independent and be interested in the world and curious and... I know. That's what I want.

I know. And you think he doesn't? No. It's been such a long time. If that was me, if I didn't have a job, I would freak out. I would be up all night and I would get one in two weeks. I don't understand the relaxed nature of things. But if you steamroll him, you're going to get the person who is all shriveled up next to you.

And you will think that it's because he is a shriveled up nincompoop. And you will not notice that you're steamrolling at the same time. Because you think that when he's quiet, he's relaxed. You explode, he implodes. There's nothing relaxed about that. And as I'm listening to this again myself, I realized that I was doing to her what I was telling her she was doing to him.

And that's when I knew I'm inducted in the system. I'm talking to them with the same tone as they talk to each other. This is where I felt that I had lost some of my therapeutic stance. That said, therapy is filled with surprises. Sometimes I think I've done the most beautiful intervention and it falls completely flat. And sometimes I cringe at my voice or at my tone or at my own interventions, thinking that was so not helpful. And then I find out that actually that landed exactly where it needed to land. And that is an unknown that every therapist lives with. But she is telling you that it's very challenging to be with you because she feels that all the energy in the house comes through her.

Do you experience yourself deflated, unmotivated, without a reason to get up in the morning if you didn't have your little one? I mean, how do you see yourself in your situation? And do you understand how your situation affects her? So much so that I feel guilty about the fact. So everything she asks of me, hey, stop drinking juice. Drink only water. I'll drink only water. Or hey, stop doing this. Stop drinking Gatorade. It's bad for you. Stop doing this bad habit. I'll do it.

Stop doing this bad habit. I'll do it. And I do it because? Because I feel guilty. That? That I don't have a job. Say more. Say more. Say? Say more. Say more? Yeah. Yeah. Well, I can say that all the things that I'm changing that she doesn't like in me. And, you know, occasionally I have asked her to do a few things that will help her become a better mother that's not and she has not been able to do them okay but i'm a little

concerned that what you just did is called kitchen sinking. What other dirty dishes can we pile up in the sink at the same time? We're just talking about you and your feelings about yourself vis-a-vis work. And also you're feeling guilty toward her about how she has to crank it up because you are currently not working and unable to reassure her because your own dad doesn't seem to be able to reassure you. My father reassures me. Well, then why don't you reassure her? I do. I've heard her say four times right now that she worries about the rent. Why don't you answer? Your father said he'll pay her rent for six months.

This is the sixth month. I can't afford the rent with my income. If I ask him to pay more, he'll pay more. But I don't want that. I want to be functional together. That's a separate piece. I don't want your father to give us money. Maybe we need a little help until I get a job.

That's a separate piece. I don't want your father to give us money. Maybe we need a little help until I get a job. I just figure like... Do you understand? No, I'm not... It's like when you want to know that you will not be homeless and he tells you we are wealthy people, we will have our rent paid. That is not the same as you're saying, but I want us to be able to pay our own bills. Those are two separate issues.

When he answers you on A, you tell him, but what about B? When he answers you on B, you tell him, but what about C? That's the kitchen thinking. Oh, you want to talk about something? Well, let's add this to the pot. And if you pile up every dirty dish on top of each other,

you will not solve a thing. You want to know if you should stay together or not? It doesn't really matter because this is going to destroy you. And this little boy

who desperately needs you to do better. You can stay together, but if you stay together like this, that's miserable. It's horrible. And you can separate, but he will be miserable because you will not have changed. Yeah. The point is not should you be together or not. The point is how do we change this dynamic because it is eating his upper life.

And your experiences are completely valid, each of you, but you're blaming the other the whole time. Can you start actually from the place like what she did before was actually very beautiful?

I feel for him when he tells me that he's struggling and you're struggling um so i'll start off the way that she has i feel for her because for her you i feel for her because... For? For her. You. I feel for you because you have so much anxiety. My anxiety is a symptom of the environment. I'm not a chronically anxious person. I'm able to, like, live and function.

Yes, I'm neurotic. You are chronically anxious. You have been anxious. You were anxious about the engagement party to the point where you couldn't sleep. Yes. And then you were anxious about the next thing. And you said, oh, as long as we have a wedding, as we book a wedding place, I'll be fine. And you're anxious about the next thing. And then that goes by and you're anxious about having a baby.

Always anxious. Always anxious. And there's so much anxiety. about having a baby, always anxious, always anxious. And it is so much anxiety and I guess I'm the opposite. I'm the opposite and I calm her down, but sometimes I feel- And the opposite meaning what? I try to be a pillar of strength. So when she's uncertain, like she is about whether or not we'll get evicted and be homeless,

I reassure her. And you succeed? Sometimes. Oh. Unless I see numbers on a sheet that account for how we can pay for the rent outside of just my income, because you know everything about me, my income. You know everything. I've given you everything I recently stopped because I don't want to in case something happens I don't know but you're going off again both yeah I don't know it's very very uh entrenched

you know you try and you start and it looks oh, maybe he can actually cross the bridge for a moment and see what it's like. But no, it's a sense of just, I understand what you're saying. Rather than the reason you feel the way you do is because there's something wrong with you. I guess that is the route we saw in how to improve ourselves but I guess it's not I have to be honest I have so much I'm so angry that it's clouded my entire, the whole way I treat him. I feel awful, but I just feel... Yes. So when you talk about how you feel bad that he feels so weakened and emasculated by, you know, I just have to say you're doing a good job. At emasculating him. Yes.

I know. I'm so sorry, but it goes two ways. I've been sensitive to that for, like, many years, because this has been, before we decided to have a child, I sat down, actually went home to cry to my grandparents. My grandfather said, you need to get a divorce. Like, it's never going to work. But your parents and grandparents and chorus and the whole shtetl that comes with it first got you to this place.

I know. They loved him. Right? Loved him. So are we going to be able to regulate the volume here a little bit? Exactly. At what point do you get angry with the people who are also choking you? I know.

Rather than this person who actually is rather kind. I know. No, but I'm asking you a question, not he is. I've tried to stop talking to them so much. To whom?

My grandparents, my mother, my father. I've tried to stop talking to them, but it's hard for me because I don't know how to... Because you did everything they wanted you to do. Who knows if you even wanted to be married and have a child as it is?

I know. That's what scares me too. My whole life, it's been like, you're going to get married, you're going to have a child. And then the only sources of self-esteem I ever got, I don't know if this is important, but when I was in high school, I was an actress slash model so like I was scouted when I was like 13 and I I feel like that messed me up with like

male attention and stuff um so it's like I don't have that now that I'm have a child and I'm married since he doesn't give me any validation he never tries to be intimate with me or kiss me or hug me or touch me really for years it's because i don't have that you know what's going to happen right what i mean if you go with he never you have lost him you can talk to me of the wazoo but you have lost him because when you say never he's gonna dig up the one time he tried so this is it torpedo i think it's ask for what you want that's not the same as telling him what he does wrong i guess i want a husband that's no no no not a husband that i wanted a marriage that my mother promised me that. No, no. I want him to make me feel like... You're not in magical fairyland. You're asking him something precise. But if you ask him, while you're telling him that he's no good,

he has only one thing he can do. Defend himself to his core. But I don't think he's no good. I just think that there's parts of his personality that are a little stunted because of his upbringing. And I feel bad for that. And I want to help him. But it's starting to negatively impact our entire family life. That is a clean statement.

Fair enough. It's happening to you now? I am trying to build a list of all the things that she said that I don't believe to be true. And it's getting to the point where I can't even keep track of it. How about you think, what would be wise? What would make it different? If I do this, what you just are about to do, as usual. You've done this a zillion times. You don't need to do it in front of me.

And what she said now, she has said a bunch of times. How can I help you take any piece of this and surprise yourself and her at the same time? I think part of me is looking at these and thinking... All the people sitting in this room? I don't want the chorus to think that those things are true. Because they're not. Oh, you're settling scores with them? No, or just anyone. We're at a very interesting moment because while I'm sitting with two people in the room, we have not forgotten that there are a bunch of chairs

of these invisible people who are constantly present in their relationship. And we enter the domain of shame. If they believe all these things about me, I cannot really look at them in the eyes. I can't keep my head up. And so he finds himself with the option to recoil and to go quiet and withdraw, as he has learned to do throughout his childhood. Or to become the businessman who can keep accurate records. records and he can really challenge the score and begin to dismantle every criticism, every inaccuracy, one by one. In both of these options he will find himself defeated and alone. Why don't we move them out of the room? So you can actually have a conversation between the two of you. Well, I feel like I have to defend myself.

Yes. Because she's saying incorrect things. So is that going to, does it help you? Do you get anywhere? I feel a little better, yeah. You do? Yeah. It's not.

Seriously? He wants to set the record straight for those listening. He doesn't want to come across as, could you stop? Sorry. It's not true.

What I can tell you one of the things that is true is that you do this why would you want to be intimate exactly you want him to want you but you don't want him I've always it's always been like that though

I'm like I need to feel normal so that it looks good on the chart that is true too you're not interested in him I'm like, I need to feel normal. I'm good. Let's have sex. Yes, yes, yes. So that it looks good on the chart. That is true too. You're not interested in him. You just want him to be interested in you because that suits the way that you have seen yourself and that's how things should be. He should want you.

You should spew on him, but he should continue to want you regardless of because your gorgeous face is just enough. Because both of you are basically settling scores with your self-image. You're trying to settle score with your teenage self and you're trying to set your score with your masculine self. And you're loyal to those. Meanwhile, your relationship will crumble.

So you want me to go back and defend myself? Tell her how you feel. Don't give you, don't tell her your scorecard. Well, I desire you. And it is upsetting that you don't. Make sure that you have her attention. Don't give her gold. I'm embarrassed.

And she's not... I'm embarrassed because we never related to each other in this way. We're like little kids together. Okay. We're doing fine. You calling me a boy again? That was good. I desire you and I'm a little upset that someone has told you and you've put it into action that we, as we're working on our marriage, that you wouldn't want to be intimate. It's not that I don't want to be,

it's that I think it's become... Alright. Now you have a choice. You can bring in the freaking choir, or you can respond to the one most important thing he just told you. If you don't acknowledge it, you have just... ...ruined something.

I think I'm so angry. No. No. That is vote. That's your easy default. Whatever he says, you go into, I'm so angry, I'm so angry. And you will stay stuck and nothing will change. He didn't tell you to do anything.

He just told you, I you i desire you i don't think he means that he desires me and that is going to sink like he doesn't trust that you're going to get to the right story and you don't trust that what he says is true and you don't trust an iota when you only trust each other when you say shit to each other but maybe if he ever woke me up like i've woken him up in the past month trying to have sex with him maybe i would feel like he did want me but nothing that he says ever shows that he wants me in a sexual way then you can say i don't feel it i don't that's not the same as saying, you're full of shit. I don't believe you. I was saying that.

I don't believe that you do desire me because if you desired me, you would do what I did to you, which I use as the one criteria to know that I desire you. Since when I wake you up in the middle of the night, it means I want you and you don't wake me up in the middle of the night. Then it means that whatever you say is not true. I felt in that moment that I was identified with the relationship. And the relationship was mad at those two people for trashing it. And so that was the anger that I felt inside myself. I felt like I was the relationship

fighting for its survival. Not because I wanted to shame them, but it's a very fine line and I didn't know where it was going to land. The thing is that you know nothing about his sexuality and he doesn't know anything about yours.

He tells me I'm prude all the time. He's like, you're so prude. All right, so this is more of you shitting on each other. You know, I don't really know. You're a challenge. You know, I don't find my way in. So there's no respect left. That's when I think of marriage.

And on occasion, you have had little moments. But even when I highlight those, you shit on the fact that I'm telling you you just did something nice. There is nothing else of the theme of today except for one word, boundaries. Because this is a one-time consultation, I had to choose one element

and I thought it should be a structural element. I could have gone in many different directions about the depth of emotion, about his trauma in childhood, about her experience of intrusion and being boundaryless. But I felt in that moment, just stay structural and talk about the scaffolding and the boundaries between them and their families was probably the most concrete and manageable thing with which they could start. It maybe was less deep, but it was more solid. Part of why you defend yourself is because it's a strategy against rage.

You bring in your accounting book to settle the score, because if you can hold on to what you consider the facts or what you call the truth, it actually is a way of suppressing your rage. I agree. Okay, we're getting somewhere. Now, the good is not that you become a screaming match. But you can say, stop.

No, enough. I will not. In fact, I will not enter into this score-setting conversation. Because it's futile. And when she goes on and on and on, you come over, and if you can, you hold her. And you say, don't do this. This will destroy us. And when she's on the phone with her mother and she's doing that, I grab the phone. Exactly.

You go over, you say, hello, Ms. So-and-so. We have something very important that we have scheduled. We'll call you back later. Okay. On your end, you're going to go talk to your mom and you're literally going to say, at this moment, in order to save my marriage, we need a little bit more space, you and I. My whole family, there's no boundaries. Okay.

I'll literally tell my dad about my sex life. I walk around naked because I'm like, hey. If you tell your dad about my sex life i walk around naked if i'm like tell your dad about your sex life you will turn your husband into a brother i know because i'll tell you one thing if your head is screwed up well on your shoulders we do not want sex in the family and you will not know that you desexualized your relationship on your own doing yeah you will think that he isn't energetic enough and that's why there is no sexual energy rather than you have completely clipped his wings. Okay. You're totally right. I'm going to stop.

Do you understand? You're bringing him into the family and then you wonder why you don't want sex with him. No, you won't have sex with your brother. You know, you're bringing in 10 reasons that have nothing to do with actually what's happening here. You're in bed with your parents and your husband and you wonder why you don't feel like it. Yeah, you're right. Get them out of the bed, then you'll notice that he may be your husband yeah it's like I have no respect for the relationship

because I poo on it all the time I overshare a relationship needs a boundary a house has a door rooms have walls there is windows. There is curtains. I think that you're going to go home. You're going to take six pillows upon which you're going to

glue a piece of paper with the names of all the people that should be moved out of the bedroom. And you say, let's clear the space. Yeah. We got too many people here. And I'm not into group sex. Then you're going to take those pillows, both of you, out. And you're going to go put them in another room. Then you're going to come back to the room. And then you're going to set an ambiance.

You're going to create a space. You can make music, you can clean the room, you can put candles, you can create a space that says this is going to be a place that's dedicated to us. Yeah. You know, people can have sex three times a week if it's bad sex it doesn't matter this is not about frequency this is about how much you can enjoy yourselves and each other together the goal is not to have sex the goal is to even have a boundary around you so that there is a couple

that can be together because that's what you choose to do is be a couple with one person. And this is your marching order because otherwise you're dumping on him but you're also destroying your relationship. Oh, okay. So structure, boundaries, limits, containment.

Okay. All right. Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you so much. When the session ended, I left quite worried, actually quite self-critical as well. Like I had missed it, like I hadn't been able to go under, like I hadn't really been able to connect with her. Like she wasn't listening.

Maybe it was the reflection of the fact that she didn't really feel that I got her. That said, sometimes little light bulbs go off in a session that I may not even be aware of. I asked each of them to tell me their thoughts, their experience of the session, what happened afterwards, what they took away, and where they are now. After speaking to Esther, things got better with my husband and I. I'm not sure if this has to do with me starting to take antidepressants or if it had to do with the fact that we had someone completely unbiased listen to our story and tell us that we're not broken and that we can work through this. Having Esther give us directions on how to speak to one another, mostly focused on me looking past my husband's inability to gain employment and thus making me feel angry and resentful for working three jobs

and how to be more respectful really helped. I've listened to it completely. My husband and I have not had one horrible screaming match since we spoke to Esther. The word divorce has not been mentioned at all. We also stopped involving my family in every single sex and relationship issue. I have not spoken to my mother once about our issues, so things between us feel more sacred. That was another thing Esther told us to do. My husband and I talk again, and he has opened up to me more because I am being nice.

Esther got my husband to admit that he feels a little guilty because our situation, him not having a job, and I think that's made me feel weirdly vindicated. I am still worried sometimes about my husband not finding work, but Esther told my husband that when I am worried, he needs to make me not worried. That's helped a lot. It was extremely helpful speaking to Esther. I have not felt this great in many years. Thank you again. Hi, Esther. The therapy session was really unlike any other that I've had. Instead of just listening to us argue or keeping score, as you called it, you spoke about much more important things. And instead of staying neutral or being diplomatic, like most people would have been, you told us what we really needed to hear and gave some great advice. And thank you so much. I was deeply touched by both their notes because while I felt that I had fallen into the rhythms of their own relational patterns,

in fact, they heard a lot. They listened and they put into action right away. And by putting it into action, they were able to counter the negative escalations and to create new patterns between them that are warmer and kinder and more loving and more erotic. And I was remembering her description about her Jewish family, and I thought, at a Jewish wedding, the couple breaks the glass, and the glass is that symbol of the imperfections of life and of relationships. And the glass also says that we will work together to glue the pieces back together in an imperfect world. Esther Perel is the author of Mating in Captivity and the State of Affairs,

and also the host of the podcast, How's Work? To apply with your partner for a session for the podcast or for show notes on each episode, go to whereshouldwebegin.esterperel.com. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise for Gimlet and Esther Perel Productions. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Eva Walchover, Destry Sibley, Hyweta Gatana, and Julia Natt. Recorded by Noriko Okabe, Kristen Muller is our engineer. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider.

And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We would also like to thank Lydia Polgreen, Colin Campbell, Clara Sankey, Ian Kerner, Alma, Courtney Hamilton, Nick Oxenhorn, and Jack Saul.