Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - I Gave Him an Ultimatum. Now What?

Episode Date: May 11, 2026

A person gives their partner an ultimatum, and they fail to meet it. What happens then to the relationship? This couple comes to Esther with that question, wondering what future, if any, might be possible for them. A painful misalignment lies at the center of their polyamorous relationship. She wants to be an integrated part of his life, including his other partnerships; he wants to keep his relationships separate and invisible. Tired of feeling like a secret, she finally gave him an ultimatum: make me a visible part of your life. He wouldn't do it, and now they are left wondering if it will be possible to stay together. Producer’s Note: When our anonymous guests do a session with Esther for the podcast, it is an act of generosity for everyone who listens. These sessions are meant not only to support the people in the room with Esther, but all of us who learn from their stories. Our stories have many chapters, and what you hear is just one moment in someone’s journey. So even though the sessions are anonymous, please remember that real people are behind them and they may be reading your comments. My annual Sessions Live two-day live event is coming up next month! Through clinical, cultural, and creative perspectives, Sessions Live 2026: Cultivating Aliveness: Desire & Its Disruptions explores how relationships are evolving, and how we can translate those insights into practice. Whether you’re a practicing clinician or curious mind, you’ll discover fresh insights and takeaways to help you connect and thrive. Come see me live on May 15th and 16th in NYC! Podcast listeners get a special discount with the code FRIENDSLIVE to get $100 off an in-person ticket, or FRIENDSVIRTUAL for $50 off a virtual ticket at checkout on the Sessions Live ticket page. Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Collette Travel Services. Solo travel is all about exploring with freedom. And with Collette, that freedom comes with.

confidence. Their guided tours are designed by travelers for travelers so you can experience destinations you've always dreamt of exploring through the lens of a local. Solo travelers can now save up to $1,000 on select small group explorations tours and departures. Start your journey at gocollette.com slash esther. That's go-c-o-l-l-l-t-t-te-e dot com slash esther. That's go-c-o-l-l-t-tt-e.com. Recommendations can be great. Maybe someone recommended this podcast, and here you are. But home projects are a little different. If the podcast isn't your thing, you might lose a few minutes from your day,

but if you hire your cousin's neighbor to mount your TV, you might end up with a lopsided screen and wall damage. I know a guy isn't a good strategy for your home. That's why Thumbtack works so well. It matches you with top-rated local pros with photos, reviews, and credentials. all in one convenient place. For your next home project, try Thumbtack. Hire the Wright Pro today.

He integrates into my friend group incredibly. Like my partners, we literally travel the world, but he still is in these two other monogamous relationships that they don't know I exist. If I come to his place, he basically has to like steam clean it, so there's no trace of me. Like it's very, very, very unhealthy. She has been dating with intention where she wants partners that are open communicates.

How I've been always seeing multiple people, typically hiding a lot of things. Where our problems come in is a big part of my life is these other relationships that are closed off to others. I always ask him, I'm like, what if something has? happens to you? What's the move then? We all just meet at your hospital bed. When they come in, they present as a couple that is grappling with a misalignment around ethical non-monogamy and her wishing for more transparency and his living a life of intense compartmentalization. But very quickly, it becomes clear that that's not the only thing here happening. This is as much a session about polyamory as it is a session where one person

lets their partner know something needs to change. I need a response from you. I need us to make a decision. And repeatedly, the partner does not do so. He has fully agreed with me that he needs to make this change. He had told me he was going to end things with them or have these conversations by the new year, which did not happen. So I just said, you know, we need space. There's so many cross-road moments where often one person finds themselves making ultimatums, be it about commitment,

be it about having children, be it about revealing a secret, be it about being presented to the family, hoping that it would put the right amount of pressure on their partner. But in fact, they don't. necessarily respond this way and so they have to carry out their ultimatum and the decision is well if you don't follow this request or the expectations then I must go but they don't want to go recently she put an ultimatum with the request

that she wanted to become known to his other partners he did not meet the ultimatum they broke up this is not the first time that they go through this very same loop. And when they are apart, they remember how good they have it together. And so this is when they come wondering, what kind of a future do we have? Can we find a way to be partners still? Are we able to find a way to be on the same page and have that perfect type of relationship? Where do we start? Let's meet and give me a sense as to how we landed here today. Okay, so I think the important thing to know is that we both identify as solo polyamorous.

And that's actually how we met was on a dating app where we both disclosed that. And that was an immediate alignment. And I also practice relationship anarchy. So I am very open-minded to all sorts of different relationships. And I want different relationships in my life that work for me in the situation I'm in now. and that's important for me and my partners. And the solo is you first, your primary partner is yourself, because it can mean different things for different people.

Right. For me, the solo is that I would never get on a relationship escalator with anybody. I have no desire for marriage or cohabitation or financial entanglement. So I guess in that case, I am my own primary partner. Okay. And for you? Yeah. I mean, that's very similar, I think.

I actually didn't have an identity maybe until somebody brought that to me of like, you operate this way. I've always had multiple partners, but kept it fairly secret until I was in a relationship that was monogamous-ish, but then on the other side, I was cheating. And I didn't want to ever do that again. So once I ended that relationship, I was like, okay, now I'm going to. speak more openly and that's sort of what I've done eight nine years I think but then not really doing the follow-ups needed where it's like somebody asked where I'm at I'd rather not say anything

or potentially live where it's created these monogamous relationships even though they know I see other people I can't really speak openly about my partners with them which I want to do How many dams? It's two others. And they knew of each other? I mean, they know that I see other people, yes, but not full names or they don't want to meet other people. So it becomes a challenge, even though they know I'm with other people. They just want to be with me, but keep it out of their mind.

Which I agree is not healthy for them either, but his choices they make. But I also protect that too, I think, a little. little too much rather than speaking more openly and that's where I'm trying to build for myself for my life more open, more honest. How highly would you rate yourself on the evasiveness scale? Oh, very high. I'm good at it. Yes, you just gave us a wonderful demo too.

It slips. It's like a fish. You know, they ask, but they don't really ask, but I don't really really tell. But I told them in the beginning, but they don't know eight years. later. Yeah. Yeah. There's not much poly in that, by the way. No, I know. And I know that too. Like I take responsibility. In respect of polyamory, this is probably not a good example. For sure. And I think that's how we got here was, you know, we were seeing each other very casually in the very beginning. And then we had some profound experiences together where we realized when we

traveled together, when we were out in our community together, we had the most amazing. amazing time and the most amazing connection. And so then I wanted to shift towards more partnership because we were so very aligned and the connection was so deep. And that's when I began to realize that his other partners were unaware of me outside of a concept, potentially, and that he has full access to my whole life. And I never got a single glimpse into any of his life, which over the years I began to realize is because he spends his whole time managing these parallel realities that can never intersect. So essentially, there is no room for me and no ability to share anything with me. You know, like you become so close to somebody and you can't reach out

to them and ask for help because they have to pretend in that moment you don't exist. And that's been our breaking point. They meet on this app field. And they both present themselves as Solopoli. And so there was a sense that their reality is based on the same set of assumptions. But in fact, they realized that they have been part of two very different relationship cultures. His is the culture of secrecy. Hers is the culture of transparency. Hers is the culture that she has voluntarily anchored herself into

and made a conscious choice about with lots of intentionality and awareness. his, as he says in his first sentence, my identity was kind of a sign to me. I don't really have a sense of identity, but people looked at how I dealt with things, and then they told me, oh, this is what you may be, without much investigation of what that represented. And so it is at the same time confusing, but also it comes with quite a lot of pain. This need for compartmentalization, this need for your left arm not to know there's a one. And to keep things apart and hidden from each other, where from? Because the discussion is

less here about, is this correct polyamory? It's definitely correct compartmentalization. It's correct hiding. It's correct obfuscating. It's correct evasiveness. It's correct half answers. And of course you will talk in circles. It's meant to. to do that. Yes. And how many years are you at this? Two. Two?

Okay. Two years of us having these discussions and then we had a break last year in the agreement was that he would be in a situation where we would be open with everything by the end of 2025. And when I realized that wasn't going to happen is when we went on the break. Yeah. Okay. And honestly, for me, part of that comes from childhood for sure. to try to make a really long story as short as I can.

I grew up in a church that is quite different, so I hid that from everybody just because it gets judged. Tell me what church? Church Scientology. Growing up, my mother and my sister are big parts of that. My sister has gone when I was young, a teenager, like she left to go full time in there, and my mother had something happened within it

that she wasn't around either mentally. Full psychotic episode, and my father ended up not able to stay with me and my mother, but I have to now not only try to live my life as a teenager, but also be with my mom, protect my mom in a way, but also act as a double agent to the church, to my father, all these things. One made me grow up really fast, become hyper-independent for sure. And did you have to hide your mom's situation?

For sure. And was there anyone to protect you? No. I think not having both of my mom and my sister. during my life at that time. I don't know if that has, because I became promiscuous and was never really wanting

full relationship, super avoidant of that, maybe avoiding a connection. I do feel there's areas around that for sure. He just said something so important, but he muttered through it and didn't even finish the sentence. And yet, I heard in this one line

so many keys for what could become the session. He talks about how there was nobody to protect him, that he lost his mother and he lost his sister. And then instantly he also says, but I became very promiscuous at that time. And I never really wanted a full relationship because I became super avoidant, but with sex. So he finds a way to connect with the women, but with limited liability. He gets his needs met, he gets to feel close, he gets to experience tenderness, but at the same time he gets to experience the dissociation of the need that he has for the intimacy and for the connection, he can be on both sides of this polarity, connected and disconnected at the same time.

And it becomes a major part of his life, his promiscuity. It looks like it is about sex, but it is actually using the language, the behavior of sex, in order to satisfy deep emotional needs while at the same time masking them. We have to take a brief break, so stay with us. And let's see where this goes. Support for where should we begin comes from Quo. If your team's communication is messy, customers feel it. Missed messages, dropped threads, slow replies.

It's one of the easiest ways to lose momentum. That's why today's episode is brought to you by Quo, spelled QUO, the business communication system built so you never miss a call. Quo isn't just a phone system, it's a smart one. AI automatically logs calls, generates summaries and flags next steps, so nothing falls through the cracks, and it can even qualify leads or respond after hours so your business stays on even when you're off. Your entire team can handle calls and texts from one shared number, so no more missed messages or drop conversations. sees the full thread. Replies are faster and customers actually feel taken care of.

Money is on the line. Always say hello with Kuo. Try Kuo for free plus get 20% of your first six months when you go to Kuo.com slash begin. That's QUO.com slash begin. Support for where should we begin comes from OSIA. Our skin changes as we age and while there's no product on earth that will give you back your 20-year-old face, Skin care is about more than chasing youth. It's about nourishing the skin you have with gentle, high-quality ingredients. That's what OSHA can provide. OSHA's UNDARIA algae body oil is a fast-absorbing,

non-greasy body oil made with Andaria seaweed. The result is deep hydration, a healthy-looking glow, and skin that looks and feels better. I've created my own little OSHA routine. I use it in the morning to make my skin look and feel fresh, and hydrated. And at night, it's a lovely way to wind down at the end of a long day and to make sure my skin has everything it needs to feel nourished overnight. Get a spring-worthy glow with clean, clinically tested skincare from OSHA. And right now, they have a special discount just for our listeners.

Get 10% off your first order sitewide with code ester at OSIA-Malibu.com. That's OSCEA malibu.com. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Queens. Setting up what you wear day to day can really improve your mood, leaning into pieces that feel effortless, comfortable and still put together. It just makes getting dressed simpler. That's why Queens is a go-to. Queens has all the wardrobe staples for spring. Think 100% European linen shorts and shirts from $34, lightweight, breathable and comfortable,

but still look put together. and clean 100% Pima cotton teas with a softness that has to be felt. And everything is priced 50 to 80% less than what you'd find at similar brands. Lately I've been eyeing the Barcelona Polarized Acetate sunglasses. Now that it's finally sunny out, I've been reaching for sunglasses a lot more and I feel like I could use a refresh. The Barcelona glasses look like one of these pairs that you can just throw on with anything and feel more put together.

together. Refresh your everyday with luxury you'll actually use. Head to queens.com slash begin for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns, now available in Canada too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com slash begin for free shipping and 365-day returns, queens.com slash begin. But I also know I can compartmentalize a crazy amount. Do you surprise yourself sometimes? Somewhat, you know, like it's almost like, I hate to say it, but like serial killer, like, shut off, you know, where they can like do something crazy and then be very normal. And it's not quite at that same level.

I'm not wanting any harm for anybody. I want everybody to be happy. And that's another aspect of my life that I think I need to also realize I can't always be the nice guy or make other people happy. And I am a people pleaser, I guess. Like, I'm not the writer of my own life. And I kind of follow along. In this logic of pleasing and wanting others to be happy,

you think you should pursue her or you should set her free? In our relationship here. Yeah. I think there's still questions of, our alignment, right? For me, I want to live a different life that is aligned with the way she is and operates. But then there's other things that I'm like, well, I think we look at life a little differently. And like she said, I've been introduced to all her friends and it seems like, wow, I haven't introduced to my friends really, but it's very different. Like I don't really see

my friends often and I don't have the type of community that she creates. I don't share a lot of my life. Do you ever voluntarily just tell something? Not. Or do you wait for questions? I usually... She already answered. I just saw her head shake.

Yeah, yeah. It's usually questions, right? And that's something where I'm not sharing much. I keep everything super close. I don't know. I can't get out of that. What should like to listen to him right now? I mean, I know all of this.

Yeah. I can tell he has a lot to say and also is having trouble answering the question that you ask. Well, I asked if you are in your pleaser mode, would you define her happiness as I pursue you or would you define her happiness as setting her free? And he answered pretty much the way you would expect he would answer. I have a little of this and a little of that.

Yeah, right down the middle. And basically, I don't know. And basically, maybe those are not decisions I make in my life. They're made for me. Yes, like even taking the breaks, I am always the one to make the decision. And if I would just be happy to carry on like that, he would never choose to end things, even if it seemed really bad or uncomfortable for me. So this puts you in a place where you have to take autonomy all the way.

Yeah. Like I have clear boundaries and my boundary around being a transparent part of the life of the people that I love is a boundary for me at this point. And like on our last break, I said something very simple. Once you feel like your life is, is in a state where you could have a photograph of me in your condo that you don't have to take down every time somebody comes over, then that's when we can get back together and talk about how we move forward. Because to me, that would mean that I'm a transparent part of his life that can be seen. Of course. I continuously sense that she doesn't give herself the permission

to experience the sad, and the vulnerability that is inherent in what she really would like with him. When I hear her talk about wanting just her picture on the wall, I'd actually become sad because it's like, is that all you want? It's very small, this little picture. And at the same time, I feel the deprivation. I feel the sense that regardless of the anarchy, there is a desire to be integrated, to be seen, to be known by others,

not to be hidden, not to be somebody's secret, and that all of this is very painful and also angry making. So it comes out in the discourse of polyamory rather than in the plight of her heart. Given that you practice relational anarchy, is it hard to end? Do you feel like you should be able to bend to anything? He should be pliable, flexible, understanding, empathic, his therapist, his lover.

I broke my brain trying to figure out how to accept the fact that my partner had these monogamous relationships that were complete erasure of me and that that should be okay from a relationship anarchy perspective, right? Like consenting adults, choosing to interact in a way that makes sense for them and that's right for them. I tried. How much of a pretzel did you become? A very, very tight pretzel. Okay. And I realized that it's not a healthy relationship format that I can be in. And I don't believe it's healthy for anybody. I think he recognizes the work he has to do on being more open and honest and living proper Polly. And when your other relationships require you to hide everything, you can't

even learn or exercise that or even try to be different. But then I felt horrible being like, you have to end these other relationships to be with me because that also felt outside of relationship anarchy, right? Or like an ultimatum. But then I just realized at this point it's holding my boundary. Like both can't exist in a healthy way. You wanted him to end them or you asked him

to let them know that he's not just sleeping with other women, and that he actually is two years with you. How many years with the others? Four years with us together, but I would say two years that we've been. Okay. So you have four years and the other two? The primary other?

One is eight years and one is three. Okay. So you're loyal. You don't commit, but you stick around. You get attached in your way. Yeah. In your way. I mean, the thing is like there's nothing.

bad in these relationships. Like really, there's not. The only challenge really is this, is living that super honest life, which I also want for myself. I'm tired of hiding. I'm good at it, but I also can't wait to be free of that and actually live with intention. So when you made the agreement with her that you would come out and be transparent. What happened? When you thought about not ending, but just letting them know

I live in a triad primarily. Yeah, it's a very tough thing for me to be super vulnerable in that way. I think I always think of this very negative reaction that they will be affected by what I say. And if I tell my

long girlfriend of eight years that I actually have other women that I'm in a relationship with. She will feel that what? I lied to her. Yeah. Everything looked fine but it wasn't. Yeah. She told me I could be sexual with other people but she told me

keep your feelings for me and all that time I didn't. Yeah. I mean. Is it that? So I would be hurting her Yeah, but even now, like, I've finally gotten some good therapy to look at my own boundaries. And I am having those breakup conversations now because I know that it's unfair to them and I know that it's not a workable thing for me. And I'm going through those stages right now. You're going through these conversations with the person or in your head?

No, with the person, for sure. Okay. And what's it been like to taste a very different way of being? in the world. It feels good to be more honest, for sure. But it also still has that visceral reaction that I'm destroying somebody, you know? There's not what I want to do, enhancing for her.

It's okay. That's the vulnerability. Sometimes it hurts. It hurts to lie and it hurts to say the truth. Yeah, both not all. in my attempts to make everything okay or to follow maybe others leads or not be super straight and honest. I'm actually doing a disservice to them as well.

I'm not sitting here thinking I'm innocent in any way. I have a lot of empathy for how painful it is for her that he makes these promises that he can't keep, but I also understand why he can't keep him. He was left alone with his psychotic mother. He was the go-between the mother and the church, the mother and the father. Every adult around him was dangerous. And to be under such surveillance made him understand that the mechanism for survival was for nobody to know anything

that would endanger him. I don't know the details of what he means when he described. himself as the double agent, for example, but I do understand that this is not just a basic skills training about how to become more honest and more forthcoming. This is a complete transformation of his entire psyche, being and survival system. We have to take a brief break.

Stay with us. Support for where should we begin comes from Aloha. So many of our own. are looking to boost our protein intake, but not all protein is made equal. For those of you who are mindful about what you put in your body and want thoughtfully sourced organic protein, here's a tip. Aloha protein bars. This isn't a compromise bar, according to Aloha, and it actually tastes really good. Think creamy organic peanut butter dipped in dark chocolate and a soft, rich, satisfying texture.

Not the clumpy, stodgy protein bars that feel like a punishment. Each bar contains 14 grams of protein, up to 10 grams of fiber, 5 grams or fewer of sugar and zero sketchy ingredients. Plant-based ingredients grown in the ground and built to actually keep you satisfied. Look for Aloha Protein bars at your local grocery store or at aloha.com, a-l-o-h-a.com. Aloha, taste that grows. Support for where should we begin comes from Shopify. Whenever you're starting a big new endeavor,

it's normal to think, what if I fail? Especially with something potentially life-changing, like starting a business. But maybe a better question is, what if I don't fail? What if I succeed even more than I expected? Shopify can help you get closer to unlocking that answer.

It's the commerce platform behind millions of businesses around the world, and 10% of all e-commerce in the US, from household names like Heinz and Mattel to brands just making a name for themselves. Their design studio is equipped to help you create exactly the online presence you envision with hundreds of ready-to-use website templates. Plus, you can also create entire email

and social media campaigns with ease with the help of Shopify's marketing tools so you can meet your customers where they are. It's time to turn those what it, into with Shopify today. You can sign up for your $1 per month trial today at Shopify.com slash ester. You can go to Shopify.com slash ester. That's Shopify.com slash ester.

This week on Net Worth and Chill, I'm joined by Tank Sinatra, the meme king, with over 15 million followers across Tank's good news, influencers in the wild, and his personal account. Tank is breaking down what the meme economy really is, how much a single sponsored post pays, why major brands are throwing serious money at jokes, and how meme culture, think Preparation H, starter packs, and a perfectly timed screenshot is actually reshaping how we think about money and value. Get ready for a conversation that'll change the way you scroll, make you rethink what going viral is really worth, and prove that sometimes the most serious money moves are wrapped in the

silliest of jokes. Listen wherever you get your podcasts or watch on YouTube.com slash your rich BFF. You learn to survive and you still practice those same coping skills. I know. In an environment today that is completely different and actually requires something else from you and offers you something else. You have a super understanding person here. who is not insensitive to anything you just told, but who knows the difference between you living with secrets

and her being a secret. And when you are a secret, it eats you from within. When you are a secret and you don't want it. And there's no reason for you too, because you made a whole set of life choices in order for exactly that, to avoid having to be in that situation. Yeah, I've been clear that the hardest thing for me is feeling like a secret.

Yeah. It makes you feel like almost a mistress, even though you're not, and I'm not doing anything wrong. And I didn't ever say, please break up with these people, but I did say, please be open and honest. And I said, here's a lot of resources. Like, here's all the intro to poly resources, like maybe share these. But I also understand if people aren't coming from that mentality that, you know, you kind of have to want to, do that. But that would have been my approach. And it just got to the point where I don't see a path forward other than us almost starting over from a place of no secrecy. And I know it's probably

hard to imagine what our connection is like based on what we're saying here. But honestly, when we're out in the world and when we're traveling and when we're with our community, I've almost never experienced anything like it. Like we're so similar and it's so incredible and we have the most fun and there's so much love. So I think it makes it more like the pain of that not existing in between those moments is just something I can't make work anymore.

For me, your whole life has spent managing these secret relationships and not necessarily even making time for one-on-one time for us. What makes you amenable to live in this situation which is

rationally completely outside of the values and the principles that you have chosen? Again. Yeah, you're going to tell me the specialness of our connection. And then that's your circling around. I think it's beautiful.

I'm not for a moment minimizing, but it doesn't give you an out either. But it's so special, but it's so unique, but what we have is so incredible. And then I can't take it anymore. Yeah. And then I take a break, and then I loosen my muscles, and then I get back into the ring and then it's so beautiful and then how could I ever give up on something like this

and then how could I ever continue to tolerate something like this? So now you start to be in a betrayal of yourself, not just his betrayal of you. So, yeah, I learned a lot about where he came from and what he's been through. And I have incredibly deep empathy for that. And it helps me contextualize what he does and it helps me understand it.

And sometimes knowledge comes to a detriment to yourself, I guess, because I know how much good there is in him and I understand why it's so difficult. And so I make a lot of space for that. And I think that's just what love is. And then you reach the point where your love for him becomes degrading of you. Yeah.

Change the word. The word didn't sit well with you. No. It just never sees me. No matter how much empathy in space, I give, I just realize maybe I'll never be seen in that way. I mean, I do see you. I just am not necessarily super forthcoming.

I'm not very vocal on emotions. When we're apart, it's not that I don't see you anymore and it shuts off for me. I will think of you often. I don't operate the way a lot of people do where they like. think of somebody or see something and then immediately messaging that person. I know that's a normal thing, but it's not that I don't love you or see you. It's I don't know how to change. I've become more aware of what I'm doing.

Because you're bringing it back on you. And then every time you rope her into this empathic attunement of your situation, if you can. stay with her for a moment. Yeah. I mean, I'm mainly trying to say I understand where. So that's a short sentence. You can say it in one sentence too. Yeah. I know it's coming back to me, but I'm also trying to give us a chance to move forward in the right way. And I've never had more tough conversations.

I know you're not there so you don't see it, but it's tough because on the other side, there's other people that don't want things to end or change. I know, but you have a choice of your life, right? I know. If you need to change a situation with a partner, you have full autonomy. For sure. To make that choice, it's for yourself. And as I said, like eight years, a long time of somebody being in my life and I've had two

full-on breakup conversations that are so hard, that are so hard. that are so out of my norm. I know there's no easy way and I have to do it the hard way. Do you wish that she would understand that more? For sure. How hard it is to have these conversations, how much you are hurting people you care about deeply?

Yeah. You get a lot of understanding for your past, but you also live in the present. And you can ask for some understanding about the challenges of your past. present, even if it's late, even if it's after years, whatever, because you've so presented it as they're monogamous and I am just the one floating through, that to acknowledge that these breakups, which have been the most steady relationships in your life, are tearing you

apart. Yeah, but I also take responsibility and my action to it, you know? Correct. And I feel terrible, like... Correct. Correct. And you can judge yourself a little bit and you can also acknowledge your feelings about it, not one wipes out the other. I realize this is an area. I have not been able to be kind or empathetic around how hard this would be. And I think in an unfair way, I just say that I would never be in this situation.

so I can't understand it. But I hear that if I'm so understanding about the past, I also need to be understanding about the present. And I haven't been probably more because the present does seem to directly affect me. So it's a really hard balance to strike, I think. And I am sorry for that. I wish I could take back time to,

be super honest. I mean, even in the breakup of eight years, I mean, from when we first were talking, I hadn't met other people really that were living that way and living truth. Like, I had no examples of that. So a lot has changed in understanding how to do it, at least open honesty, not hurting anybody. And I know I'm hurting people. I know. I'm hurting people. I know. that that's happening and I'm at a breaking point too that I don't want to do that anymore for my life but the other side is also it's a big loss as well and it's a loss for me like these are friends that won't be friends so I lose real people that's not just so simple as yeah you're not happy like well I am actually kind

of happy and there's nothing wrong they treat me well I treat them well I treat them It's just that it's not aligned with how I should live and I shouldn't be secret of. And what you're saying now, have you said to her before? Yeah. The part about your loss? Yeah. Yeah, we have talked about that. And I think it's really just hard for me to understand what those relationships could be like

and what those relationships add to his life, to be honest. all I see is him move through the world in a very open, authentic, beautiful way with me and my friends. And all I can picture is a completely different person when he's with these other people that everything else is hidden from. And, you know, they don't go on adventures and they don't travel and they don't. Like, it's just hard for me to understand and conceptualize. Do you ask? Yeah, I've asked what he gets from these relationships. No, that's not a question.

Because you already have decided that it's inferior to what he has with you. It's not a real question. That's fair. I don't ask in a curious way. Yeah. So here's the collusion. You don't really ask because a part of you wants to think that what you have is so special, how could he say no to that?

And he doesn't really tell you because until now he has pretended that none of this was that important. Yes. So here's a moment of change. You know, it's not just, it's hard for them, it's hard for you too. To say goodbye or to explain why this has to change or to explain that these beautiful relationships

have existed also shrouded in secrecy. And while you offer travel, maybe they offer a cocoon. You offer adventure, they offer something else. I don't know, but I have a sense that there is a lot more that you could tell about it, but you've had an investment in making them look like they were nothing so that she wouldn't have to worry about it. So there's a collusion of misrepresentation of what means what and what matters and doesn't.

Yeah, and there's comfortability, habits, It does bring cocoon, I guess, or a comfort to life. It's like a stable thing for me, which I didn't have. Obviously, growing up, I know that's a part of a need and want that I have, like taking care of. And, you know, even if it's making food, things like that, like there are comforts of life. I assume that in your therapy, you are... connecting those dots? Yeah, but in all honesty,

I'm like working through trying to change my situations more so than I am there. Like that's all I went in with and that's all I talk about almost. But you have put a lot of emphasis on honesty and transparency and secrecy. And what I'm sensing, throughout our conversation today is that there is a whole other emphasis on loss,

on the burden of caretaking, on feeling incredible responsibility, on wondering who is there for you, on aloneness, and on creating relationships that become safe harbors where somebody cooks for you, so that it becomes more layered, why they feel like a root canal to have to end, and why on some level they have nothing to do with your relationship right now? It does and it doesn't. I think what's hard for me is that I want to be a safe harbor for you,

and I think I offer you that comfort and doing things for you and not just the community, but like one-on-one. Like, I do truly believe that we want the same thing. And I recognize the barrier and how hard this is for you. But that, like, puts me back in, like, I don't know what to do with that because it's a pretty tough boundary for me again. So even if I can understand how hard it is for you to change your dynamics with these other individuals, like, can I change my boundary and, like, I've tried.

And now I'm back in a pretzel in my head of, like, why can't I just let this all work for me? Like, I feel like I'm right back there. I saw the loop. I see the circle. I see the making of the pretzel. if you want. And yes, there is also a place at which you say

love him, love some of what we have. Special, unique, love story, but maybe reached its limit in terms of life story. To me, that is a boundary. There are people that we can deeply love. And then the question is,

can we make a life with them? Whatever the style of life you choose, more pressure you can't put. That's one thing you know for fact, because he's not doing this for you, but he has been watching you and he wants something else for himself. And that demands the disentangling from very deep, meaningful relationships that are way more meaningful than he has actually allowed himself to even know. So it's in the moment of saying goodbye that he realizes what they have meant for him. Not just the hurting of the other person, but also the loss for himself.

You can say, I will be there with you and I will accompany you through this process or I will let you go through this process by yourself and I will continue with my life and the door is open. I do want to be there for him and I do want to be there for you. but if I'm also the one that's being affected, can I do both? You know, where do we begin again? Do we begin again? I do feel like we're back in our circle. We're stuck. You know, I know all these things. I know where it comes from.

I want the relationship. But while he's going through this and figuring out if he can actually live in a polyamorous lifestyle, where do I put myself in his life? Can I be there? Can we plan things together? Can we do things together? Or does this require a full separation?

And then when do you come back together? It's very much what happens when we, talk, we kind of circle. It's a difficult situation because we both love each other and want to spend time together and be the partners we can be when we're together. But there's other things that are not aligned right now. So it's the draw of us being us again. I don't think that it's going to be a joint decision.

I think that this is a situation where you make a decision for yourself and you may be in agreement about it but it's not we have come to the conclusion together that it is in your best interest to have this transparency be immediate and it is not his. You operate from a place of a chosen set of values and a certain design

for your life and a certain conception of relationships. If I listen to you, I know you mentioned those words to those women early on, but I don't think that your lifestyle has much to do

with Polly nothing. You're using Polly because it's an acceptable word for multiple partners, multiple love stories, but in fact, your whole thing is way more internal than lifestyle. It may change,

but that is not from what you think you describe what I see you having done. Yeah, oh, I recognize for sure. Okay, so that's where the misalignment, you're using a vocabulary that is not a joint vocabulary. Yeah, well, I said I haven't practiced Polly. I said it, but I haven't been happening. But you've practiced something else,

and that's something else, way more intricate. There's a whole psychological infrastructure about what you have done, to just think it wasn't poly because it wasn't transparent because of all. It's true, it's all there too, but what

you have put in place and what you're trying to dismantle is an infrastructure that has very little to do with polyamory. It doesn't necessarily even have to do with secrecy. That's the mechanism. The compartmentalizing, the evasive

and the way the entire thing is set up, you know. If you ask, I answer, but since you didn't ask, I didn't really need to tell. And then it may evasive is a very powerful dynamic. And at the same time, the relationships are deeply meaningful. But you're looking at an infrastructure of values and lifestyle and accountability and responsibility and transparency and all these things. And that is on its way, but it has not been there. There will be lost for both of you.

There will be attempts to come back because who wants to leave something good? And it won't be perfect and it won't feel certain and it will ache. And you will wonder why the hell did it have to be this way? And should you have been more patient and more flexible and more anarchic and then you'll have to accept that you had limits? which goes against your grain, because you think you should be able to be beyond all limits and accommodating in every arrangement.

And this is kind of the place where you meet, is that his relationships are more meaningful to him than he has allowed himself ever to feel, and that your limits are more real than you have allowed yourself to feel. It's a place where both of you say, Whatever flows isn't necessarily always the right thing for me. But you will find a way out of the loop when you accept that you too have noes,

that you have limits, that you have things that you don't want to live with. You know, monogamous people, exclusive people, sometimes are challenged to admit that they have thoughts, fantasies, explorations, beyond the limits that they live in. But poly people sometimes have the challenge. of admitting that full-on openness, exploration, everything goes, everything needs to be understood, every feeling needs to be managed, is sometimes also not what suits every person.

Does any of this reach you? It does. I mean, you just described what kind of we go through when we break up. It just hasn't stuck. When you make the decision, you won't feel sure. You will question yourself. It's important that you not think these decisions are made with certainty. I know that.

I mean, that's what I've already been in. Right. Okay. And he will try to help you stay. No, no, you won't say it. You won't say stay, but you will say what you said today, which melts her heart. So grief lives in that space.

The more you grieve, the more you know you loved. I've already grieved us a lot. I know. But you also put him an ultimatum. He didn't meet the ultimatum. Then you had to follow through on your decision. Then you thought, is there another stone unturned?

And sometimes I have nothing to say that you don't know already. I think today is one of those. Is that disappointing to you? A little bit. Yeah, I obviously wish there was something I hadn't thought of. I wish too. Where do I leave you besides frustrated or disappointed? I think it is just what it is.

It is frustrating and it is disappointing, and those are two good words to describe our relationship arc. Where do I leave you? Talking to me. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I have to make my own decisions too, and it's quite different. I'm the one making the decisions on those other sides, and in this position, I'm not making the decisions. decision here. I can respect that, recognize that, and it could be a complete restart for me too, to go forward in a much better way. But is there an avenue that we can be in each other's lives

that looks differently where our care and love for each other just doesn't go by the wayside and we still care for each other, we still love each other, what can something else look like. You know what something else looks like? Is that you are now friends and therefore when she calls you in an emergency, you do not have to worry about answering the phone and then you will pick up and then you will show up. You are more likely to be able to show your depth of affection and love and care for her potentially in the framework of friends than in the framework of friends than in the framework. of partners.

See, but that's the crazy thing is we've had that conversation and the level of compartmentalization doesn't allow that even as a friend. Really? Yes. Oh, okay, then I take it back. The compartmentalization

doesn't allow for a deep friendship anymore that it allows for a partnership. Then you have your answer. And that's the problem. Then you have your answer. In the beginning of the session, he said, I never write my own story. At the end of the session, it becomes clear that she will have to make the decision for where the story goes. This will not be a joint decision.

This will be hers because he can go on like this. He has begun a process of dismantling and rebuilding, but they're not at all in the same place. And paradoxically, while he carries the secrecy, we know a lot more about him. While she carries the transparency, we actually don't know as much. We know the predicament that she is in at this moment and the aching that she feels, but we don't necessarily know what predisposes her to find herself in the most paradoxical situation, meaning she's experiencing the one thing she built an entire system to prevent. And my frustration at the end of this session is that there was only one session.

Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network, in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Desti Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julianette. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.