Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - I Have a Crush on a Coworker

Episode Date: February 9, 2026

She has a crush on her coworker, which feels thrilling and unsettling all at once. Fresh off a divorce and shaped by earlier relationships marked by instability and self doubt, she worries she may be confusing desire with grief or slipping back into old patterns. As she sorts through the pull she feels toward her coworker, Esther helps her explore what this new spark might actually mean. Together, they look at how to trust her instincts, honor the reawakening she feels, and let something new unfold at a pace that she can savor. Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [e-mail]. Producer’s Note: When our anonymous guests do a session with Esther for the podcast, it is an act of generosity for everyone who listens. These sessions are meant not only to support the people in the room with Esther, but all of us who learn from their stories. Our stories have many chapters, and what you hear is just one moment in someone’s journey. So even though the sessions are anonymous, please remember that real people are behind them and they may be reading your comments. Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this following session, we discuss assault, and I want you to know this before you listen. Hi, Esther. I am calling because I have a crush on someone I work with, and I'm not sure what, if anything, I should do about it. The reason I'm conflicted is because, one, I'm newly divorced. I've been divorced for six months. And while it was a long time coming and I made peace with it, it still feels very fresh. And I'm not sure when is the proper amount of time I should be waiting before I start a new romantic relationship. And the other piece is the fact that we work together. We are on the same team. so it seems that there are many ways that this could go badly,

and that deters me from entering a romantic relationship with this person. And at the same time, I feel very drawn towards this person and can't help but want to pursue a romantic relationship with him. So I would appreciate some guidance and insight from you. Thanks. This January on Paramount Plus, it began on the shores of New Jersey. Now a new pack emerges in the Great White North. Canada Shore, new original series, now streaming on Paramount Plus.

Welcome aboard via rail. Please sit and enjoy. Please sit and sit. Play. Post. Taste, view, and enjoy. Via Rail, love the way. Is your crush shared, known, or held in your internal fortress?

So I'm pretty certain that it is shared. It hasn't been talked about. We haven't really said anything to each other about it. but I am very confident that he feels the same way. Tell me more about how the crush came to be known to you. Was it there before, but it waited for the permission to reveal itself to you because you were still in the unraveling of your marriage? So it wasn't known to me or I didn't realize it until,

the divorce happened. We had been working together for a while before that. And with this job that I have, I made a lot of new friends. And I kind of overlooked him, to be honest, and thought, it just wasn't even a thought in my head. But during my divorce, I went out with a few of my work colleagues, including him. And I had a thought, like, wow, this person is easy to be around. I really enjoy spending time with him. Like, it's nice to know that there are nice, attractive guys out there that I share more interest with. And that's when I kind of started crushing on him a little more. It's become a verb now.

Okay. Yes. Yes. And after my divorce was final. I went out dancing with a few friends and he was there and we danced together and it was very nice. I enjoyed it. And then I thought, oh, boy, I kind of like this person. And I just haven't been sure like what to do with that information.

It kind of freaks me out that I'm in this situation. Because you work together, because you just recently divorced, because of the timing of it, because of the surprise of who it is, because it's a feeling that you don't know. There are many possibilities. What freaks you out? So a few of the things you said, the fact that I am so recently divorced, and there's more to that story too. Yep, I'm going to ask. I was going to go out to a show with a bunch of friends. It was a big group of us, including my crush. And for one reason or another, everybody kind of backed out of it last minute. So it was just going to be me and him. And this is when we were already in the divorce process. So like emotions were kind of high. And my husband like totally freaked out about. it and he was like saying a lot of really negative things about my coworker and basically that

he was just a player that he was looking for like the right place and right time to make a move on me and because he didn't know that we were getting divorced it made it worse because he didn't you know check in to make sure it was okay that I was going with just him and he said a lot of really horrible things that made me kind of doubt my co-workers' intentions, even though he had never really done anything to, like, show me that his heart wasn't in the right place. Because after all of that happened and the divorce was finalized, like, I went out to a movie with him and his other friend who was a female, and she's married, and they're like old friends, and they're, like, old friends, and they hang out sometimes, and it was completely, what's the word I'm searching for?

He was clear. He wasn't premeditated. Right. He wasn't conspiring one thing while presenting one thing while conspiring for another. Right. But before I knew that, and my husband had kind of put all of these things in my head about him, I had a lot of doubt about this person. I was like, you know, is he just an opportunist kind of waiting for the right place and the right time?

That sort of put me off. Of course, the fact that we work together. I mean, everybody tells you that you shouldn't date a coworker, that, you know, don't crap where you eat and all of that. And also, like, if it didn't work out, that would be very awkward because we're on the same team, we work in the same department. So that potentially is not a great idea. Tell me about your marriage and your divorce. You told me kind of the last gift your husband dropped in your lap, which was to make you doubt yourself and your judgment of people. what proceeded and what led to where you ended?

So I guess just for some background, we met when we were young. We went to high school together, but we never actually met in high school until, you know, way down the road after college. We were both 22 when we met. And at the time, I was coming out of a lot of really abusive related. relationships and feeling rather fragile and like I just needed some stability in my life. Of course. And he was kind of that opportunity for me because he had a good head on his shoulders. He was a good person, a stable job.

So it just kind of made sense. He treated me very well. And I felt very safe around him. But as time went on, it became clear that we didn't share a lot of the same interests. And I didn't feel very emotionally supported by him throughout our entire marriage. And that was really harmful to me. Like I had all of my comforts, you know, financial stability, lived in a beautiful house. anything that I needed was taken care of. However, there is a big emotional gap there. And there were

multiple, it was like death by a thousand cuts. There were a lot of different things that made me feel completely alone in the marriage. And we ended up separating for a short period of time a few years ago, we decided to get back together and give it another shot. I had said, you know, this is what I need in order to continue with the marriage. And things got better a little bit. And then they kind of fell off again. I didn't feel like there was much effort on his part and investing in the emotional side of our relationship and working through the things that were hurting me. and it just reached a point where I became emotionally detached because I was so exhausted from all of this work that I was trying to put into it.

And there were obviously like hurt feelings on both sides of it. But that's kind of in a nutshell what happened. If there was a cartoon of the two of you, what would the bubble above your head say and what would the bubble above his head say if you had one line that's a good question mine would say

I need you to understand me I need you to see me and his would say but you're not forgiving me for anything you're not moving on And what would you have to forgive him for? All the times he didn't show up for me when I needed him to. The times where he stood me up to family events

and to things that were very significant to me for the times where I told him what was important to me and it was brushed aside. There's a lot of grief. there too. Yeah. And part of what I'm hearing in your question is, is my crush a grief reaction or an expression of desire? Right. I want to make sure that this is coming from a place of genuine interest in compatibility versus, you know, a bounce back, finding things in the other person that I didn't have in my marriage.

How many years were you together with your husband? We were together for nine years, and we were married for six of those years. Okay. And was there anything to what he was saying about, but you're holding on? I can't repair with you because you stay in the flats of the rupture? I didn't feel like that was fair because I had forgiven him over and over and over again and remained very hopeful. I chose to stay in the marriage because I wanted to make it work. But yet the past was still present.

Even after we decided to give another shot and get back together after separation, he still stood me up to an event. And then he said, but you're not forgiving me. You have to trust me that I won't do it again. And he gave me no reason to trust him after that. So I didn't feel that that statement was fair. Maybe after the first time, it would have been fair if I had kept bringing it up. But after, you know, the third, fourth, fifth time that...

And how did you understand that? understand it. Lack of care, lack of understanding of what's important to you, selfishness, misunderstanding. I mean, I interpreted it like he just doesn't care because I've told him the significance of what's important to me and why that's important to me. And so if he still isn't showing up, then that's to me. like willfully negligent. So you divorced him?

Yes. Did he divorce you? He made it clear that he is still there for me. I think that he will move on eventually, but because we separated and got back together once before, I think maybe he didn't believe me that I was leaving. So I don't know if he's truly divorced me or not.

Do you share similar circles? Not really. We used to, but we had a falling out with our only group of friends that we hung out with. So we really didn't share friends. And therefore the friends at work became of utmost importance to you.

Right. I didn't have a community. I felt very isolated and didn't really have a large circle. So when I met the people at work that have now become my friends, it sort of opened my whole world up. And you don't want to fuck it up. Yeah.

I don't want to miss that up. Yes, yes. I love the people I work with, and they're all wonderful people, and I don't want to, if me and my co-workers started dating and things didn't work out, it would be awkward. We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. So stay with us.

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Just the idea that after loss, after endings, when you re-experience for the first time, openness, eyes that look outward, people you feel drawn to, intense attraction, desire, crushes, savor it.

You don't have to be out of control. You can just be pleased with the fact that you're alive, that your erotic energy is back, not just sexually, in the sense of open, curious, imaginative,

telling stories to yourself, fantasizing about possibilities, it is. Before you get all anxious, it's a separate issue. What shall I do about it? And how do I make space for this moment,

this experience? Maybe he is just rebound because he brings back that energy inside of me and it will manifest itself and express itself with someone else. But that transition itself of what happens after you close a door and when you wonder when, where will I have that feeling again,

when you have it, it's a bit scary because it's messy, because crushes feel unruly, they are hard to contain, they want to take over, but they can also be very generative energy. So just that was the first thing I thought about. Savour it. But then when you take it, me the past continues to be present.

I had a series of abusive relationships. I met my ex and he came as an anchor, a force of stability, someone who wouldn't hurt me. And basically what he told me at the end was if you get yourself go with that other dude, he's going to hurt you. That's the subliminal message. So tell me a little bit about this trajectory. before you met your ex you didn't have a crush on your ex.

It was a rational decision. And sometimes we go back and forward between passionate relationships and reasonable relationships between what I am drawn to and what may be good for me. And these are major questions that many of us grapple with

in terms of our love stories. So what happened before that made you choose him? How did you miss? Because in effect, you're saying, what am I not seeing with my crush? But what did you not see with your husband either? Because you were taken by the notion of he's solid, good job, house. He's solid, but he may not be particularly emotionally attuned.

and I don't know what preceded, but often the glasses we were in one relationship, when we take them off, allow us to see a whole bunch of stuff in the next relationship. Yeah, that's totally fair. Before I met him, I had come out of two abusive relationships. the first one was the worst. I had a best friend in high school. We both went off to college our first year and came back that summer together and she introduced me to this man that she was friends with.

And he and I had a week-long fling. It was a lot of fun. He was really smart, but he was also dealing with a mental illness. And during the time we were together, he, I guess, went off of his medication and was sort of in withdrawals. And that caused him to behave really abusively towards me. And it really harmed my self-esteem. He told me a lot. He told me a lot of, lot of things about myself in an attempt to try to get me to open up to him. And I was 19. I didn't know myself really that well. And he was what? He, I think, was 20 or 21. He was a couple years older. Can I invite you just so that I don't make false assumptions. If you here and there can be a little more specific, it will have. help me understand you because abusive can mean a lot of different things. Playing with my head

can mean a lot of things. Mental health illness can mean a lot of things. Right. So if I can ask for a little bit of filling the gaps, I know we're only meeting one hour and I do not want to ask you to open anything that we cannot close. Okay. Okay. Well, to be more specific, He had bipolar disorder. I thought so. Yep. And there was a lot of verbal abuse, just breaking me down mentally. He told me that there were certain things about myself that weren't attractive physically.

And just emotionally that I was immature, that I was shallow. and it definitely screwed with my head. And then when he actually came off of the medication, it escalated to the point where he hit me across the face. Then he had a complete emotional breakdown and was crying.

He broke up late and said that he was going to cut himself with it if I left. And then I went upstairs because we were in the basement of his family's home. So I went upstairs to his parents. And then he followed me and then physically assaulted his father, push him down and was just raving out of his mind, angry. So that was the first relationship that I got out of.

Then I find out my best friend who introduced us kind of ghosted me after that, didn't hear from her. And then she later told me that she had been hanging out with him after that happened. that happened. And I didn't realize it at the time, but in hindsight, I think that maybe they had some sort of relationship that was going on that I didn't know about. So, um, it was like insult to injury. Like not only had I been through this ordeal, ended up dropping out of college because I was so upset about it. Um, but now I lost my best friend. So, that was awful. And I can't remember how long it was after probably a year or so, a year or two. I got

into another relationship and the guy was love bombing me. He was escalating the relationship very quickly, telling me what I wanted to hear, saying that he loved me, that he wanted to build a future with me and I went for it. We moved in together and then things escalated again with him. He became very jealous and he was just very possessive. Didn't want me to have a relationship with my family. Ah, okay, so that's that version. Right. Because one version is that from being idealized, you become demonized. The other version is from being a free, you become a possession and you become the person who is recruited to deal with a lot of abandonment issues and that manifests in jealousy.

Correct. You're exactly right. He was adopted and he had a lot of abandonment issues from his upbringing. And I was not equipped to deal with that. I didn't know even and how to identify what was happening, I just knew that it felt wrong and I felt very trapped. And things escalated into me feeling physically unsafe where he would yell and scream and put holes through walls. I had to lock myself in the bathroom a few times so that he couldn't get into me. and then I finally, you know, left, packed up all my stuff in my car and just got the heck out of there and moved back in with my parents. How long did that last? It was not long.

Okay. I think from the time we met to the time we broke up, it was probably less than a year. So one thing that jumps at me is in these two. well there's a lot of things it's like you had a lot of experience in your formative years and

tough experience challenging ones but you have very good survival instincts you know when it's off and it takes a moment to organize but then you go this is the third time you're doing it

right you left boyfriend one you left boyfriend two, you left husband three. You have a sense in you when it's off. And I don't know if you did it alone or if you had good supports or if you found other friends or your parents or your family or you see. I don't know who's around you, but who accompanies you through these various stages of life because a chunk of it is developmental stages.

And you're telling me about these boyfriends, but you may have had other relationships. and other friendships that actually were not abusive and destructive and intimidating and frightening. So I'm looking just through one very small keyhole here. So give me just a tiny bit who has accompanied you? Because even in boyfriend, one, part of what kind of got to you that he got to play with your head and talk about you as being shallow,

which I have a feeling you don't think of yourself as shallow at all and you certainly don't think of yourself as dumb which is part of why he impressed you because you thought he was smart and that you know you thought we are part of a similar inclination and you have a very good way of understanding what the dynamic was I don't know if you're left wondering why didn't I see or should I have seen it sooner or should I have reacted sooner.

I also want you to cut slack at 19, you're 19, at 22, you're 22. And what you're highlighting may not be the sum total of what actually has been shaping you. You're right. It's a very small snapshot of my relationships up to that point. I do have good, solid support from my family, my mom and my dad, I'm both very close. close with. They didn't have a very great relationship. And I think, I mean, I did have, you know, boyfriends in high school that, that treated me well. So it's definitely not like, these are the only experiences I've had. But I guess leading up to that point, like my parents'

relationship and marriage had sort of disintegrated after I graduated high school. So I went off to college and when I came back for winter break, they were divorced in living separate places. So I think I was really upset about that. I was feeling very vulnerable and lost. Was that a total surprise? No. It was not a surprise. I knew they didn't really get along. But they waited for you to be gone. Right. So that was like clear. to me. It didn't mean that it was any less difficult, but I understood it. How much have these three experiences left you doubting yourself or wondering what am I missing? Or are you able to put it in a broader context of your life and say, I've had better,

I've had less good, and I've had some that I cringe when I think about? I think I can put it more into context now because I've always landed on my feet and that built a lot of confidence in me over the past 15 odd years that I've had these experiences. That's what I meant by good survival instincts. You land on your feet, I see it.

Yeah. We have to take a brief break. So stay with us And let's see where this goes Support for where should we begin comes from Shopify The early days of starting a business are equal parts exciting and terrifying

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Visit medcan.com slash moments to get started. What is the question or the fear that inhabits you in reality? to this crush. I said, I have a feeling you are asking me, is it a grief reaction, which, if so, you need to tell me what that means for you? Or am I really drawn and entering a new era and a new stage of my life again? I think the fear is that I'm going to fall too quickly into something again because that was the common theme in my relationships. It didn't work out. I got involved way too quickly. I didn't

take things slowly to try to get to know the person very well before I made a commitment to them to be in a relationship. So my fear is that I'll get caught up in my emotions again, think, you know, this is such a great person. I'm having so much fun. And then find myself in the same situation where I'm with somebody that is not good for me long term. Okay. And I don't know if I'm making up reasons why I shouldn't pursue something that could potentially be really good for me. So I'm kind of struggling with that.

Except that you just did a very interesting glitch. You went from, I fall, I get blindsided. I get all flattered versus I miss out. When in fact what you're asking me is how do I let this thing ripen like a fruit? And how do I slow it down? That doesn't mean I check out. That doesn't mean I pass. It means that I fantasize by myself and I take things and I let the relationship mature somewhat.

That's very different from hit or miss. What you just described is I lose myself, I plunge, or I check out. And what you're asking me is how do I enter the house, spend some time in the lobby, go into the living room, discover the kitchen, go to the bedroom, go to the bedroom. their rooms. How do I transition from crush and fantasy to actually meeting the person? How do I let the person enter my world without having a relationship with my crush completely? How would you do it?

Let's walk through the steps of a slower belief. of a relationship basically. Yeah. Well, part of why I am excited by my crush is because we have known each other for a year, just as friends. And I have met one of his friends just from his life that he's had long term. And that felt really good to me. So I've really enjoyed just getting to know him in that context.

So I think if that could be translated into just spending time together and learning more about each other, that could be... How do you imagine it? I mean, I would imagine it as like going on really good dates, going and doing activities that we both enjoy together, which we already have, but it wasn't in the context of a date. You wanted to be in the context of a date, or you want it to be in the context of a date, or you want to be. want to still be going as friends? I would like it to be in the context of a date. You do. I do.

You're very clear about that. Yes. But for that to happen, you can go in two versions, right? There are probably many more. But one version is you pre-establish that the relationship is changing. And in the other, you go as a. friends and it unfolds that there is more here. Sure. I didn't consider that. Thank you. I didn't consider that. I can feel it kind of going in that direction already just with the times we have spent together as

friends. The time where we went dancing with a few other friends, the other friends just kind of went away and it was just us. So I can kind of feel it like organically progressing that way. And it was just really nice, you know. And it didn't have to be like in a category. It just kind of was. And I enjoyed that. It was really refreshing. I haven't really had anything like that. Like that meaning. something that progressed organically. Right. That's what I meant by ripening. Sure.

Yes, organically ripening. It's the same. Yeah, it is. Yeah. It's the same. It's exactly it. At this moment, maybe there is less for you to do than to allow for what is happening

to continue to manifest. I'm just an overthinker, I think. I think things to death. Yeah, yeah, I see. Yeah. If you didn't already know that by now. Use it wisely, but not in this context. In this context, I mean, you are thinking,

but you're also telling me something is developing. We are both active participants in it. It's not like it's happening unbeknownst to us. He knows you're recently divorced. So he may think I wait for her. She just came out. He may think it's like you wait for a little bit of a clue from him. He waits for a little bit from a clue from you.

And there is something very teasing about that too. You kind of feel the vulnerability of the uncertainty. You don't know. You would like to know. You would like to firm it up. But at the same time, you don't want to be bold about it. Because if it's not mutual, then you're going to be rejected. And you don't want to experience that either.

So you tiptoe. tip-toos, you know. And then at some point, sometimes people are in the middle of a dance, in the middle of a song, in the middle of a walk, and they reach out for each other. They don't have a conversation about it necessarily. They reach out to each other because they feel it.

They know it and they can trust it. It's a little less rushed. It's a little less impulsive. It's less coming from a place. of I can't control this force that is rising inside of me. And I'm about to succumb. I'm about to succumb. It is there, but it is held preciously.

And you may need to meet him two, three more times. That's not like this is a five-year ripening process. I would hope not. I don't think that would be very fulfilling to me. No, no, I probably. That would be frustrating. Yes, yes, yes. In your head, you're rearranging your work

so that you feel that the route is clear and you're not going to be stepping in, you know, contradictory interests and things like that. But I want to understand. You worry about it not being reciprocal? No, because you feel that it's mutual. You worry about going fast and not really looking around. because you have done that at other times.

So then the next thing is, how do you move with your eyes open? So a part of that involves talking to other people who know him, who are working with him or who are friends. Because a major piece of dating these days sometimes is that people don't involve enough of their lives in the dating. So they date one-on-one. And if you do one-on-one all the time,

you really lack all the context of a person's life that allows you to know more about who they are, how they react, how they treat other people, what's been their story, what are the other major events of their love lives, et cetera. So since you work together, since he's been there for a while, since you know each other for a year,

there are other people around. Then you can invite a few of them to go out with you or to come to your home and certainly going out with people. And yes, what you have a sense is that others are sensing something is happening between the two of you. Then go to some of the people that you trust and that you know more and just check and say, am I inventing this or is this really what happened? Yeah, I talked to one friend about it and she said, you know,

I was wondering if something would happen between you guys after you became single again. I was wondering about that. And I said, oh, really? Okay. Next question. What makes you think that? Go back and what makes you, what, you know, and is this just your wondering or if this a collective wandering here in the unit or whatever in the department?

But it's kind of, what is it that you people have been feeling, sensing, anticipating, and often that collective sniff is very important. A collective sniff, I don't like that. That's funny. There's a way in which people have a sense in co-hate, sometimes unarticulated, of energies. between people. These two, it looks like, I wonder if, meaning that you don't have to deal with all of this just by yourself,

use other radars. That's a great idea. I got to talk a little bit with his good friend that we went to a movie with. And it was all three of us just kind of talking. You know, I learned a lot about him. And that was really great to just hear a different perspective on this person who I have my own experience with. But like how how is he perceived by the other people in his life? Yep. Yep. What did you know? What's one thing that stood out?

He's very competitive. He's extremely competitive, which I knew, but I didn't, I didn't quite know until I talked to her. He played competitive sports growing up. That's how they met. And she said he always had to be first. It was had to be the first one. And I said, oh, where did that come from? And he was like, I don't, I don't know. I just always had to be first. He said, I'm better about it now. I don't need to be first anymore.

But yeah, I was that person. And I thought that was very interesting. I found it very attractive. I found it endearing that he's, you know, very determined and very, you know, stubborn. Those are qualities that I also have in different aspects of my life. And when you have a crush, the beauty of a crush is that it has an imaginative capacity of interpreting everything in the positive. Everything becomes a draw. Yeah. It's just my anxiety that makes it negative, right? Because, you know, he's very different

than me in a lot of different ways. He's like probably one of the least politically correct people. I've ever met in my life. And there are certain things that he'll say sometimes that just make me cringe and roll my eyes. And then he'll laugh and I'm like, why would you say something like that? And then he'll say, oh, you know, it's more me making fun of it than anything. And, you know, those things stick in my mind like, oh, is that a red flag? Or is it just like a difference between us? So take your time.

collect your info spend time with him I mean there is except for this notion that if I don't do it now it may slip through my fingers there is nothing that's pushing you sometimes the push comes from

I need to know that I've moved on and that I'm in a new phase and that I've met so you know but you can regulate that it's not is this grief or is this regeneration it's how do I allow for this new experience, but I also don't need to let it completely sweep me.

You know, I mean, crush and passion follows the language of I was swept. I can't control any of this. It just takes me over. Everything can be reinterpreted. And then there is a piece inside of you that says, but open your eyes. watch a tiny bit more. They don't stand in a position. In fact, when you interpret something in the total positive and you embellish it and turn it, you know, you could ask the voice inside of you

that is more reluctant and more cautious and more on the anxious side, hey, what do you think? You could actually develop a bit of a stereophonic system. Yeah, just sort of a balance between those two. Yeah. Why does this one say to that one? What is this one? Notice that that one didn't. How do these two approaches, those two voices inside of you, these two parts of you at this

moment communicate with each other? And sometimes you may have to say to one, can you just move aside for a second? I need to hear the other one because you've been so loud in my ear. If I only listen to you, I'll, you know. And then sometimes you say, you know, you're so constraining and you're so distrusting and you're so fearful. Maybe you could push aside for a minute and I can go in. And they don't have to be in a balance, but they have to be in a dialogue. They need to make space for each other because each one is telling you something important. It's not an easy thing to do because crush doesn't

like to be reasoned with and reason hates to lose control. And you have a task inside of you that seeks to integrate these two and that didn't start today. It's not a new dilemma for you. Is that accurate? Yeah, I think trusting myself has always been a journey or like a learning experience because there were a lot of times in my life where I didn't feel like I could trust my own judgment. And then outside voices telling me I couldn't trust my own judgment that I was somebody that needed to be protected, that I was somebody that, you know, that was fragile.

And I don't, I don't think that way about myself. I don't think that's who I am. So each step that I've taken in my life to stand on my own feet, independently, to live on my own, to create a career, fulfilling career without a college degree, to pursue my passions, all of these. All of these, things like gave me a lot of confidence. It's just the relational piece like that's me on my out right like now it's just the relational piece where it's me in relationship with others. It's not true. It's not you on your own. It's you on your own with work and that is a system of relationships. It's you with your parents and that's relationships. It's you with your friends and that's relationships. You're creating a juxtaposition that is not accurate.

I understand what you say. This one is about me and the romantic relationship brings in a whole other dimension. And I'm suggesting that you take your strengths, your relational strengths, your confidence, your radar, your ability to look around you, all of that. And that you bring some of it into maybe tempering the crush a tiny bit. But not making it disappear, not making it either about passion, or about constraint and reason. But listen here and listen there and listen,

because they live together. I guess a better way of saying is, like, my relationship with myself versus my relationships with others. Will you keep me posted? Yeah, of course. Just send me a voice message at some point so I know where all of it landed and when's the next time you went to dance?

Well, there may be an opportunity for that coming up at the end of the month. So I'll let you know. Great. Keep me in on the details. I will. Thank you so much. All right. Thank you.

Bye-bye. This was an Astaire calling. A one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Astaire, it could be answered. in a 40 or 50-minute phone call, send her a voice message, and Esther might just call you. Send your question to

producer at esteraparell.com. Where should we begin with Esther Perel is produced by magnificent noise? We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley,

Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julianette. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of where should we begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.