Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - I Love My Partner, So Why Can’t I Let Go of My Ex?

Episode Date: August 3, 2026

What is the distinction between a love story and a life story? And what happens when they no longer move in the same direction? After returning to the Philippines to reconnect with a former partner she never fully let go of, one caller finds herself overwhelmed by grief, longing, and the fear of saying goodbye. Esther helps her untangle the relationship from the life it once represented and explore why some goodbyes are harder than others. What does it mean to hold onto someone with love without remaining tethered to them forever? Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [e-mail]. Producer’s Note: When our anonymous guests do a session with Esther for the podcast, it is an act of generosity for everyone who listens. These sessions are meant not only to support the people in the room with Esther, but all of us who learn from their stories. Our stories have many chapters, and what you hear is just one moment in someone’s journey. So even though the sessions are anonymous, please remember that real people are behind them and they may be reading your comments. Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Welcome. Thank you. Maybe we start by you telling me what is the question that you bring with you today. Because we can't address everything. And so sometimes it helps us focus and have a lens through which to engage in our conversation together. That sounds good. The question that I'm hoping to explore and if I'm lucky to get some sort of answer to today would be How do I be in partnership with my current partner while also holding the love that I have for my former partner?

And how does that overlap? How does that look? Is it possible? Yeah, that's kind of the basis of my question. Recommendations can't be amazing. I mean, maybe someone recommended that TV show you've been obsessed with lately. But when it comes to home projects, it's different. If you don't like a show, you might lose a few minutes.

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So why not you? Try Odo for free at Odu.com. That's ODOO.com. Is it possible to love to people at the same time, or is it possible to be into relationships at the same time, or is it possible to be in a new relationship without completely losing everything that the first relationship represented? Any of these?

The second and the third more so. I definitely know it's possible. I have been feeling it. I've been with my current partner for close to six years and have felt this presence of my former partner just always there. It hasn't dissipated. But the layers around that former partnership are just so complex. And I've recently seen him. And so things have resurfaced. And I know it's possible. to have multiple partners, and that is something that my current partner and I have discussed, non-monogamy and polyamory. I don't think that is necessarily what I'm asking in this context. That's not what I'm looking for. I know for sure my former partner would not be interested in that. But my former partner is in the Philippines, and I am here in the U.S. with my current partner. So there's a lot of different layers around the complexities of maintaining relationships and particularly like the cultural part of relationships with my former partner who is not American. Give me just a little bit of background, situate me in your life story and who are the primary characters in this drama.

Okay, so I moved to the Philippines about a decade ago and did a few different things there. I moved there because of the Peace Corps and then got out of the Peace Corps and managed to find another job that kept me in the Philippines because I was in love and knew that it would be very difficult for my partner in the Philippines to make it to the U.S. near impossible unless we were to get married. So we started the fiancé visa route. So things didn't work out due to visa things, relational things, a bunch of things. Then I moved back to the U.S. and without any intention, within like a month of moving back to the U.S., met my now current partner and have been with them for close to six years. There was very little time between the two partners.

and when I left the Philippines for the last time, we were deciding to move in different directions, but there wasn't any like... Closure. Yeah, there wasn't closure. There also wasn't hurt or anger. Like, we were at the airport, like, very sad and, like, we'll see each other soon.

Like, there was still a lot of love and, like, planning to be in each other's lives. And then I moved back to the U.S., met my current partner who is non-binary. So I went from being in a half. heterosexual relationship to a queer relationship. So there's that whole layer. And then for years, truly since I started dating my partner, it was always something we talked about was my former partner in the Philippines and how much I love him and how much I want him to be a part of my life.

But the role of a partner didn't necessarily make sense anymore. So how do I maintain him in my life? and then because of everything the world experienced for the years of 2020 to present day, it was very hard to get back to the Philippines. And I just went back in December and saw him for the first time since we left. And I left March of 2020, so right when the borders were closing. And it felt amazing. It felt like no time had passed. I had been preparing for this trip with my individual therapist and my calls.

couples therapists for months. Like, I know this is going to be really intense. It's going to be intense when I'm there. It's going to be intense when I come back. And it was. And were there other relationships on that side too? In the Philippines. Did he have other relationships? Yes. Yeah. So during the time when we were apart, he did have a partner and for maybe two years. But when he started dating that person. He, like, kind of disappeared and ghosted me. There was one sort of communication that was like, hey, I have a partner. She doesn't want me to talk to you, so you're not in my life anymore. So I feel like I, like, grieved our whole relationship. And then two years later, she got up and ghosted him and left. And then he started reaching out to me again, like, I'm so sorry. Like,

she was actually the one sending you those messages, but you know me. I don't like conflict. I couldn't talk to you, but I want to be in your life again. So we started planning like, okay, the only way we're going to be able to see each other, obviously, is if I come there. So let's start planning a time for us to see each other. And yeah, it just felt like we had a really great time. And we reconnected and we were talking about like what does our relationship look like into the future. And then just like a week after I got back, he just stopped talking to me. So then I was left, with all these feelings of, yeah, like, this is taking over my brain and my life. I'm not able to be present because I'm first and foremost, I'm worried about him.

Like, it feels like this is completely out of character. But now as more time has passed, I'm like, is it out of character? Like, he did this before. Yeah, and I think, yeah, my main question that I like. So right now you're not in contact with him. Well, you don't know why. I, yeah, we are not in contact. I am being a crazy person and continuing to call him and message him, but nothing, there is no

response or sign. Okay. So in light of what you've just told me, what is your question? Which one are we going with? I think, like, yeah, how do I try to maintain presence in my current relationship while still holding whatever this was from this previous? I mean, obviously there's love. And I feel like that I can hold in my heart.

But how do I, like, not let this take over my brain and keep me from being present in my current relationship? That's a very different question than the one you had five minutes ago. And in part, it's because what you've just described is that it's not your decision alone. Yeah. Yeah. What it felt like, what you choose to remember, where you choose to hold it inside of you, what place it takes in your overall story, that's all for you to decide freely.

But what the relationship becomes, if it reactivates itself, how it sustains itself, and all of that, that is a joint decision. And so part of what is driving you crazy is the fact that you're alone with this at this point. You're confused. And for the first time, you're losing ground.

as in the ground under your feet feels very, very shaky. And I have not yet asked you, how does your US partner relate to all of this? What do they say? Or what do they feel? I think they are like supportive, but it's this hard dance that we do of like, I feel like a lot of my relationships in the past

have been very secretive around, like, oh, there's feelings for someone else, like very, very monogamous without any acknowledgement. And that doesn't feel, that is not what my current partnership is. But it also brings up a lot when I'm like unable to just like be present and for weeks out of time. They wonder if you want to be with them. Yeah. And I think that's. Yeah. And I think that's complicated in my own brain because I'm like, I don't feel like that's what it is. But I'm also just like, how have I been thinking about this and for six years, you know, and like even being with him for those two weeks that we were just together, it didn't feel like, oh, I'm questioning my decision of whether

I want to be in this partnership or this partnership. I feel good in my decision to be in my current partnership, but there's this, there's just this string pulling me that feels like, but like you need to be in some sort of partnership with him and not that's not like anyone telling me that it just is like in my heart it's like this person in the philippines is someone who feels like a soulmate but yeah it's it's it's not my decision and i think that is what is so hard and tell me describe the string to me what's the pool and what have you being pulled towards and what does this pool represent for you? Oh, yeah, so much. Right before I left for the Philippines, my parents got divorced, and so that was in 2016. And basically since then, my dad has not talked to me. And so I know there are all

these other layers of like the feeling of abandonment and just like being pushed aside or like not even given the time to explain why there's no communication. So your dad ghosted you and you have no idea why and it hasn't changed for 10 years? Yeah. Do you have a sense? Yeah. Did he ghost just you? Did he ghost everyone in the family?

Not my three brothers. It's been, which is always so complex. I was maybe more on my mom's side and I wasn't really willing to like, have a conversation with him until we acknowledged all the hurt he was causing my mom. And for the first, like, year we kind of did this dance of like he tried to like have a relationship with me. And I would be like, I can't until we talk about all of these things, these actions you're doing.

And he was just like, I won't talk about that with you. Our relationship is independent of my relationship with your mom. And we just could never get over that hurdle. He's never even reached out to me. It's not a matter of like he's reaching out and I'm still not ready to go about it. Like I have not heard from him for probably eight years. And that was all happening in my early 20s right as I was going to the Philippines. And then I met this person who I'm sure I just have, yeah, weird attachment styles with.

And I think it doubly hurts because he knows. all of this about my dad and like I was going through all of that during the start of our relationship and like processing all of that. So he was the glue that helped you tolerate the riff and the breach that you had experienced, that you were experiencing with your dad. Right. And he represented something continuous. and ongoing in the middle of a thread that had just been torn. Yeah.

Yeah. And the Philippines in and of it represents all of that, I think, too. And so there's like the layer of him being my partner, but then also like living in that place for so many years. But me living in the place that whole time has the foundation of me being in partnership with him. So I have all of these feelings of this place being like home, but it's not my home, right? Like I am just a foreigner in this place, but it made it feel less like that when I had a partner to like ground me and all of that.

So there's, yeah, the complex layers around like, am I losing him? Am I losing this whole like part of my life that feels like it's like, you know, like I've had like a hole in my heart and then that kind of filled in the hole in my life. heart. And what else? What does this thread represent? Because the departure was not only, I imagine, or maybe I should ask it as a question, was the departure a consequence of the unraveling of the family? With my dad. With your dad and maybe with your mom too. Yeah, I'm sure. It, Zooming out, it was not unexpected, but in the moment it happened, it felt very unexpected and super dramatic and like, I'm not talking to anyone about it. I'm just like getting up and leaving one day. It was, yeah, it was just a very messy and awful situation. And then very quickly after that, I left as like, yeah, I'm sure a way of running away from everything. What number are you? I'm two. And everybody else did?

Ish. Everyone dispersed a little bit within the U.S. But honestly, I've thought about for years reaching out to come on your show to have a conversation with me and my mom because our relationship was so complex from all of this for so long. And part of me leaving the country was just like, I am 22 years old and I cannot support you. through, yeah, just, you know, she was just at a terrible time and was just constantly experiencing suicide ideation and whether she wanted to be alive or not and how she was going to make it to the next day. And it was just a lot to hold and a lot to carry. And yeah, so I think part of this thread of my relationship was also just like an escape and like someone to hold me instead of

having to hold everyone. Yep, yep. It wasn't just leaving because of your dad. It was leaving because of what it would mean to stay with your mom. Yeah. And it was also being with someone who could take care of you a little bit or be there for you when everything at least here was about you're being there for everybody. You got it.

You got it. And so when I ask you, what does he represent? It's a lot of that. And yet at some point, you decided it was time to come back. Even though you imagined that he would come with you, you did feel this is not my place. This was a good transition. This helped me go from stage X to stage X.

But now I need to go back to my, at least my country. Are you back in your area or are you? Different area. Okay. And interestingly, you did the exact same thing in the U.S. that you had done in the Philippines. Yep. I mean, you don't stay alone very long. Yeah.

In the good sense of the world, there's nothing, you know. And you had the same way that you had someone there that helped you enter the country, make a base, situate yourself, be anchored. You met someone here and they helped you and situate. Okay, so you are resourceful. You are very resource. It's a compliment. Not to worry.

Yeah, yeah. We have to take a brief break. So stay with us. And let's see where this goes. Support for the show comes from Quo. Our phones can do a lot these days, but at the end of the day, it's still a phone. And it's still receiving calls.

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And yeah, another layer to my former relationship is that we did get married. Like we had a wedding in the Philippines. He was coming to the U.S. on a fiancé visa. So we had a wedding in the Philippines knowing that his family wouldn't be able to come to the U.S. and have a wedding here. And then we would have had 90 days once we got to the U.S. to do the official marriage. He never made it to the U.S. after our wedding in the Philippines because he was stopped at the border for having tuberculosis. So there was this whole other layer. And so then I was back in the U.S. for a while.

And he was doing treatment through the U.S. government in Manila to take his tuberculosis medication for nine months or however long it was. But I had like already lined up a job thinking like, okay, I'm bringing someone to the U.S. And I need to. So I had a job. But then I went back to the Philippines after that job ended. It was like a seasonal summer job and stayed with him because I was like, okay, he's doing this medication and then he's going to come. But then when I was back in the U.S. for those few months,

I started to have what you just described. Like I'm like, okay, maybe my time in the Philippines is expiring. Maybe it doesn't really make sense for him to come here. He's 15 years older than me and has a child and his only job for the past 10 years has been working in a cockfighting arena. And a lot of that was like, what is his life going to be here? Like, is he going to be happy here? being used to living on an island and working one day a week in a cockfighting arena. Like, does any of this actually make sense? And how did you answer that question? By going back and trying it out for a little bit longer and seeing like, okay, with all of these,

now these new things to think about, like, I'm going to go back and like have these conversations in person. When I was in the U.S. and he was in the Philippines for a few months, it was so hard. there were so many language barriers and I started to realize how like nonverbal our communication was. And that went for like all of the, all of the Filipino friends I had. Like it was like, oh, we're in such regular contact and now we're a world apart and like how do we communicate. So I was like, I definitely need to go back and like try this out and see just to make sure that I'm like, these feelings I'm feeling being apart are actually true. So I'm hearing from you is a kind of a developmental arc.

You know, you live in your early 20s, as your life has just been totally turned upside down by others. You arrive there and you meet someone who becomes a very important base for you, which he may or may not even know. In that period of youth life, you're not busy thinking, what is the distinction between a love story and a life story? Because you're living the love story

and they blend into one. Right. And since you are there and you're not checking on anything else, there is no need to ask the questions. What will you do if you come to the United States? Right. Who will we be?

Right. I can adapt because I am in that very stage of my life where that's exactly what I wanted, a complete turnaround of everything I have known. Here I am. And he provides that for you. He is in his life. Yes. You are the one who is being offered an alternative story.

Yeah. And as the years go by, developmentally, the love story and the life story begin to separate. Not because they're mutually exclusive, but because they don't necessarily live by the same principles and criteria. They don't look for the same things.

They don't share the same expectations. It needs once or twice or three times of meeting, going back, etc., to actually begin to understand that. You may not have put it in those words, but you begin to understand that this thing is not so easily transportable. Right.

It lives in a certain ecology. in a certain language, in a certain landscape, in a certain rhythm, in a certain social environment, and it doesn't necessarily travel. And you begin to feel like I've done the traveling I need it. You evolve. And especially if he's 15 years older and there was not much flexibility in the time when you were even there together. And he basically stayed exactly where he was when you met him.

you have a good sense of if there's no flexibility at home, there often is no flexibility in terms of leaving home. I'm talking about home as one's entire scaffolding. Yeah, but you're also right in that he's lived with his mom his whole life. And so like he also, the physical home. Okay. Okay. So I'm going to say something utterly, you know,

It's the thing that just popped into my head. But he's helping you. He's helping you. You understand? He's telling you in various ways, I can't. That's not, I want, I can't, that's not us. What we had is what it was meant to be. What you're looking for now is a different story.

Would it be different if he did it and you had a chance to say goodbye or this or that? probably, but you're not somebody who says goodbye. You didn't come here to say to me, how do I say goodbye? You came to ask me, how do I keep it all inside of me? Yeah. And then the question is, what does it mean inside of me? Does this story live in the lobby of my life? And every time you enter my house, it's the first thing you see.

Or does it live in the... How you say? The cabin in, no, yeah, that was going to say the cabin at the end of the yard. Yeah. So you've gone through all the rooms before you arrive there. And that's a very important storage space. Yeah. Yeah, that is the essence of what I'm wondering is like, yeah, where to put it into storage and how to access it.

Because, yeah, it's, you know, like if history repeats itself, at some point he's going to reach back out and be like there will be an explanation. No, only if you accept it. You may say, this story is, this book is always finished. This book is finished. It was very important for me in this way. It was probably very important for you in a very different way. You got to stay home and be with me. I got to leave home and be with you.

And I am building something different. but this was very important. I will never forget this person who literally was there upon arrival at a moment that was completely unstable and in full disruption. I learned to love with you, I learned to make love with you, I learned a ton of different things. And you are a major developmental story in my life. and it ends when there is a transition to a new stage.

Yeah, I think if he were here, he would agree with you and I just have... But I'm not talking to him, I'm talking to you. No. So you tell me what you think. I mean, it's good to know he would like it. I would agree. It's good. It's a relief.

But... Yeah. I think he would agree in that, like, that's... kind of what he has said before when he, like, started his, a relationship after us where he was like, you know, you're always in my heart, but like, I'm now in this new relationship and I just like could not accept that. I'm just, and I think right now I'm like, I'm hearing you say that. And I'm like, I'm trying to like put it into my body and brain. But it, yeah, I think, I don't know. I don't know if it's because of the history of my, not necessarily Roman.

but the history of my like familial intimate relationships. But I, yeah, I just have such a hard time saying goodbye. And yeah, I felt like I was like making these deals with him when we were there around like, it's not goodbye. Like, you're going to be in my life forever, but not as my partner. And like, I'm going to have this partnership, but I want to, I want you in my life. And I'll come visit you once a year. And we can be together.

And I think, yeah, in the moment when we were together, he's like, okay yeah like I agree to that and then I think after you know it had been six years and it's just like everything was flooding back and again there's so many like cultural things that are like hard to navigate but like what when you keep you've said it twice now what what's the thing that stand out for you about that so I have not I was assigned to live with his sister with the peace course so that's how like I met his family um so I feel like like I have, you know, close relations with a lot of his extended family and all of his extended family still lives in the same town, village, whatever you want to call it.

And so when we just went back, my brother came with me on this visit back because he lived with me here for a summer when he was in college. So he has, we have a lot of shared friends. He was really close with my partner. So we were coming back and we were going to like pick up my former partner at a mall in the city. And he let us know right before we were on her way, like, oh, my whole family is here. They want to say hi. And I was like, um, I don't think so. Like, we haven't had any, like, communication. Like, this is a lot, just me and you seeing each other. And so it felt like that was going to be the answer. But then we show up and he's like, yeah, just come meet me here. And then his whole family is there. And they're like videotaping us and just

like, we've missed you. We're so excited to see you. you and like that's like the initial time we're seeing each other after six years. And there had been so many what I thought to be very clear conversations around like, I have a partner. Like I am coming to see you because I love and care about you and it's been so long and I like want to spend time with you. And it wasn't ever spoken out loud by anyone by him or anyone in his family of like, are you guys getting back together? Is this revitalizing your relationship? But I, yeah, it's, and on the flip, we were traveling with my brother and he was spending, you know, like a week with my brother and me. And so it's like both sides of it. But then when I was

asking, like, your mom, like, she hugged me and like said she wants me to visit her the next time I come. Like, are you wanting me to come to your place and like visit your family? And that's all kind of confusing. I didn't know I was like welcome back there because I don't know how. our marriage, like how that lands with everyone. And his family, I'm a little bit more removed from. They all think you married to you? They were all at the wedding. Like, we had a big wedding.

But they all also knew, like, he was not able, you know, the whole, everything was very in the open around like, okay, he's now being stopped at the border. So they thought you were coming to bring your groom? I don't know. That's what I'm, I don't know. I don't know. And so then it's like if that's how we first met each other and then we spend another 10 days together, you know, without any of his family. And it feels clear to me like that we are not exploring. You know, he tried to kiss me when we first saw each other. And I was like, no, like, I want to hug you and like I love you, but we're not kissing. Like that. And is there speaking of marriage in your current relationship?

Um, no, but just because I feel like... One is enough? Yeah, exactly. We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. So stay with us. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Shopify. If you've been sitting on a business idea,

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And he's your bridge. And you are at this moment when instead of calling him in this obsessive style, are you there, are you there, are you there? That there is actually a part of you that needs to call or to write or whatever, not to hold on, but to actually say goodbye.

And that means walking back the bridge, because this bridge is going to lift. And then when it's lifted, you can't cross it. There's water. And the call that you need to make, the letter that you need to write, is the one where you walk back to the other side of the bridge. There's no way of doing that that doesn't involve sadness and loss and grief.

But also memory, integration and sedimentation. Like it sediments inside of you and it becomes a major period of your life. But it isn't activated by the urgency and the young feelings that brought you there in the first place. So I'm thinking, dear X, now you. It's okay. Yeah. This feels like one of the hardest things that I ever have had to do so far in my life. You've meant so much to me and helped me be the person that I am.

But the relationship or lack thereof that we have now. and that we've had for the past five years since I've left, it's too hard to keep holding on to and trying to manage. And as much as I've told you in the past, that I would love to keep holding on and keep pulling you along by a thread so that you're there when I'm ready. I'm not going to be ready to be in a relationship with you ever again.

and I can't keep hurting you by just keeping you pulled along and telling you I love you all the time because I know that's confusing. And I personally just can't ever close the door without there being some sort of potential if you ever need me. But I think we need to put a pause on trying to connect with each other because it feels like it's holding both of us back. I'm so grateful for you. Is there a PS? Yeah, but I don't really know how to say it. I'm just so worried about him, his health and safety.

And when I last saw him, he told me he had started smoking meth again because he's just so sad. And I guess the PS would just be like something that like I can't. it can't be the one that stops you from doing that. But I hope that you can find your center and your grounding. That's like the essence of my obsessive calling is, yeah, I think the last time when he had a girlfriend and he said, or somebody said, whether it was him or his girlfriend said, like, stop contacting me. I'm in a new relationship now and that's what I want.

I was able to just be like, okay, no more, you know, like I can respect that. I don't want to mess that up. But this time is just, yeah, it's so much harder, like, seeing him just look pretty rough and like. As if your father doing to your mother. Yeah. And what you're doing to him. Yeah. And I think that's why I have such a. hard time with like impermeable boundaries because it's like I don't know again like I've never had this

heart to heart with my dad to be like what is the deeper layer to why you needed to do all of this but it just felt the way he had these like these boundaries so to speak with my mom and me of like no contact no communication these are the things I'm willing to talk about these are the things I'm not willing to talk about like yeah it just felt like there was no no ability for anybody else to show up and like have a part and it was just and I think this is like my bigger like frustration with who he is as a person is just like this power and like also the suicidality and the met exactly yeah so you're making the connections yeah and I just never want to like yeah I just I do love and care about him and even if I'm having this boundary of like I can't keep doing this whole back and forth

And like, yeah, obviously I've pitched it to him of like, I want you in my life and I'd make room in time to see you for one month every year if that was possible. Like, I've expressed what I want and like what I would be willing to give. But yeah, I just worry so much. And like there's such a big war on drugs in the Philippines. But you're also telling me, I'm desperately trying to not have separations that are cutoffs. Yeah. To maintain an open door, to not leave people who then want to harm themselves. And I'm learning.

I'm learning to say, I'm not cutting you off, but I'm not continuing to promise you all kinds of things which I am actually not going to do. Right. And there must be a way for me to say goodbye without having to feel responsible over your life. Right. Because that's the other extreme of what you feel your dad did from I care about nothing to I'm responsible for your life.

Yeah. Which is why you left in the first place. So you can write this letter two, three times until you send one version. It's for you, more than for him, actually. Yeah. Yeah. I think that handwriting will be more powerful than typing.

And this is a practice for you to say goodbye, to end in a way that is very different from the experiences that you have had around breakups and to find a middle ground. Yeah. And I mean, I think my job and my personality of like being a caretaker, caregiver, also led me to reach out to because I'm like, I've been holding this. this and swishing around and going to therapy weekly for years and nothing has there hasn't been any progress right and then I tell everyone in my life I'm going back to the Philippines I'm going to see my ex and virtually everyone is like not a good idea yeah like why are you doing this except my partner honestly my partner's like no this you kind of need some closure because this has been like an open door from the get go of our relationship but you didn't come back with The closure is something that you're facing now, which is why his reluctance to be in touch with you is helpful.

But you need to do something with it. It's just the raw material. Right. And you need to shape it. Yes. You need to shape it by deciding where in the house you want to put it. So I would like you to make a box of memorabilia that belongs to this field. of your life and to this relationship.

It could include clothes, nature objects, cards, receipts, you name it. And just make a beautiful box. So it's always visible if you want to, accessible if you want to, but it's gathered. You gather the memory. You gather the transition. And then find a place in the house where to. put it. That's a really good idea. Everything is just... Because it's spread all over and it's permeating. And frankly, you have a very generous and understanding partner, but at some point, they will also say,

you know, can we tighten the belt a little bit? Exactly. Yeah, I feel like that's where the urgency of the conversation comes in was like, yeah, they were so willing to let me go and explore, you know, like closure or whatever. And I like knew we both knew coming back it was going to be hard. And it is obviously hitting a lot harder than expected. And yeah, so they're also at the point of like, it's okay, take your time and also like. Yes, I'm not here forever. Right.

So I got it. I understood that what made this urgent is that it was not nearly as much closure as I think your partner hoped it would be. Or even you, for that matter. So I like representation. Your letters go into the box if you want to. The box can be totally beautiful. It doesn't have to be just a plain shoe box.

Or you can beautify it. But it is a place where you bring together the essentials of those years. Then you'll decide if you want to have a formal goodbye. or if that is your own personal little closure, and that that suffices, that does it. I want you to then take your partner, your current partner, and show them the box. I am here.

That doesn't mean you never think about the Philippines, so think about it, but basically I am here. Your role as Penelope waiting for me to return is coming to a closure. That too needs to get a closure. The box is not glued. You can open it any time. But it is contained.

It needs to be. So that you don't feel like you're flooded and confused and unable to ground yourself. And you can do all the breathing and we can do all of that too. You can do the walking, the movement, the breathing, the holding of the heart, everything you want.

But there is also, the symbolic way to contain this and to bring the pieces of the experience and the memories into a safe, contained box that I can open and close. And that is not activated by obsessive rumination and phone calls and responsibility over his being alive or his using and all of that. Yeah. what would be the opening line of the letter and we will close with that but just only the title of the letter if you wanted again i would have to come back to the eloquence but i think part of what would i would want to

make sure isn't the title is gratitude love and closure so some some gathering of those things like thank you. You've helped me in so many ways. I will never stop loving you. And we can't keep doing this dance. No, and I came to say goodbye. This is an I. Yeah, which I've never said to him. Even all the times that we've, you know, said goodbye at a border and just like, okay, we'll see each other. Yeah, it's never been goodbye. I feel allergic to goodbye. But I, yeah, like I think it's reframing my, the way that I think about goodbye and not, in terms of like how goodbye has been said to me and impacted me in the past of like,

no more communication, don't talk to me. Goodbye can also be, yeah, it doesn't have to be. So in your face, never a part of anything ever again. Correct. That's it. How to say a final goodbye for what we have had and what we have been. Right. Which is true. That does need a goodbye because I keep saying over and over again, we can't be partners anymore. So I am essentially saying that, but it's, yeah, I think it's so not direct and I think it's confusing. We can't be partners is an observation.

a statement. I came to say goodbye is a verb and an action. One's a reflection, one's an action. And this is difficult, but you're going to take action for the final goodbye. And I'm going to say goodbye to you too. Okay. Thank you so much, Esther. This was an Esther calling. A one-time intervention phone call, recorded remote

from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Astaire, could be answered in a 40 or 50-minute phone call. Send her a voice message, and Astaire might just call you. Send your question to, producer at esteraparelle.com. Where should we begin with Esther Perel is produced by magnificent noise? We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network,

in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julian Han. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of where should we begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul. Support for this show comes from Odu. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other?

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