Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - I Love You One Day, I Hate You The Next

Episode Date: March 4, 2024

They are a young couple with a small child and they fight non-stop. And while they each have good intentions, they struggle to hear or see each other. What initially made them fall in love with each other, they now experience as a threat. Can they learn to fight but still stay connected to each other? For the first time on the U.S. stage, Esther invites you to an evening unlike any other. Join her as she shines a light on the cultural shifts transforming relationships and helps us rethink how we connect, how we desire – and even how we love. To find a city near you, go to https://www.estherperel.com/tour2024 Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter Coming to SXSW? You can see Esther live on the Vox Media Podcast Stage with guest Trevor Noah on March 8th, and with Brené Brown on March 10th. Learn more at voxmedia.com/live Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real. We've been together for five years, and we've been married for three years. There's so much conflict that I'm not sure we are seeing eye to eye. I mean, we become very emotionally distant. The mood is kind of soured. Since the beginning of our relationship,

there's been a volatility to our dynamic. There's been tension and then it erupts. She has a tendency of running away with her emotions, running away with anger. She will be heated and I will be stoic and trying to control my emotions. Like the way that we have navigated conflict to me is symptomatic of basically a lack of trust. They are five years together. They have a two-year-old and they've been fighting more and more

just about every second day. And they would like to know how to bring back some of the good feeling and some of the harmony. Conflict in couples often occurs around three particular dances. Two people going at each other, fighting. Two people going away from each other, silence. Or one person escalating, maximizing, explosive, and one person minimizing and implosive, so to say. One person erupting and the other person holding it together.

And it often looks like the explosive one is the one with the temper, is the one who gets angry and the other one, in this case, he's trying to stay really good. But sometimes the aggression is blatant, sometimes it's passive-aggressive. We are going to go into the uncovering of how they fight,

but also what they fight about and also what they're fighting for as in what lies underneath this argument that makes the slightest thing become an attack on each other and brings back some very early memories from childhood about how we connect, how we disconnect, and how we repair. I mean, I think just over the past couple years, I feel we've had problems that have like the conflicts have kind of piled on top of each other I mean right now I mean we argue almost like every other day like or you know fairly frequently now like we're arguing that's me and there's like a trigger and then it's like the whole thing opens up. So I don't know what argument looks like between the two of you but I have a

sense that you don't like it. Well I would say he doesn't like it more than I do. He doesn't love arguing kind of at all. Whereas for me, I can kind of really appreciate being able to come into that space and see what happens, experiment with the people I'm close to, come to understand what do they feel strongly about. Like to me, I feel like I learned through arguing. I feel right now there's a pattern where we'll be talking about something, we'll be trying to make a decision, she'll ask me what she thinks, I'll have a different… She'll ask you what you think.

She'll ask me what I think about this decision. I'll say what I think, or you know, but it will be different from what she thinks. Or it's kind of, there's a way that it's read where it's like a no. For example? So for example. Pick a low grade one. Don't pick the worst. Yeah, I'll pick a recent one.

So we're trying to find a babysitter to come to this. And it's kind of coming down to the wire. We finally get like the website to get the babysitter. And then she says, you know, this is what I think we should do. I think we should get two babysitters. One we should get on Friday. And then one we should get kind of like as a backup. I say, I think what we should do is we should have the babysitter on Friday. We like them. We hire her for Friday. If that babysitter doesn't work out, then maybe we can evaluate if we need to hire a

second person instead of just hiring two people up front. That's what I said. But I mean, first, she responded dismissively to the notion. I because to her it was reckless she's like we can't leave it down to the last minute like she's repeating it back to me I mean saying it's reckless I'm trying to put us in like a stressful situation or something like that you know and and it like escalates to a point where like she's done with the conversation and she walks upstairs so where does where's the escalation I mean the escalation is I think it spawns from the disagreement because I was just trying to explain what because she was repeating it back to me and I was trying to repeat it back so everybody just said four times the same thing what do you think each of you actually

experienced underneath yeah what made each of you go one level up so for me I was being activated by what I like this this lack of patience. I guess it's a fear that, I mean, for one, I can't say no. I mean, it just affirms this feeling or this experience I've had in our relationship where saying no or disagreeing is a losing game. I'm not being gifted the grace or the patience to be heard out right now. And irresponsible is the word that then, is the common word that attaches itself to you? Yeah, I mean, reckless is another word.

I mean, I guess it's all kind of like aligned with irresponsible or... Clueless? Is that also in the package? Probably. Clueless. Clueless is that also in the package probably clueless clueless like um dumb we're going that far we continue sometimes yeah sometimes it's like that and for her um emotional uncompromising yeah yeah emotional hard ass stubborn harsh too harsh yeah hot and cold sensitive sensitive sensitive is a big one i would say sensitive yeah and the message you pass on to

him i definitely know this exact exchange that we're talking about, choosing a babysitter. I know what I said that shifted his energy. He proposed, like he said, we don't need to choose two babysitters. We don't need to try out multiple people. I immediately respond and say, that's ridiculous. And it was that exact word. And I go on to explain and say well this is very delicate to me and very important but I already said ridiculous

you know so he's not gonna hear me do you tell him that or do you actually say that's ridiculous I'm trying to tell him that. After. Yes. So when he repeated the word ridiculous back to me, I say, well, I'm not trying to disagree with you. I'm not trying to put down what you're saying. For me, I do not want to leave it to the last minute. And what he hears is you think I'm trying to leave it to the last, you know, so then he internalizes that. So you start by having a conversation about an item and it instantly becomes a conversation about both of you. Yes.

So the item is never discussed. Yes. Because then it's tiring and it's overwhelming. That's why I walk away because I'm like, oh my God. Of course it's overwhelming. And not only that, but the way you described the conflict piles up is that the distance between the thing that provokes it and the escalation becomes shorter and shorter because you even if the other person didn't say it you hear it and you fill in the blank on the basis of everything they've said

every other time something like this yes that's how i feel yeah yeah and you forget everything that brought you together in the first place so yeah let's go back a second and tell me how you met and how you got together in the first place together they are describing to me the rapid escalations that are becoming more and more frequent and more set, like a pattern. And yet, they both were trying to address how to do child care. This wasn't like one person cared and the other one didn't. And that's the first thing I noticed, is that they both had a good intention. And neither of them got the feeling from the other that they saw that. These two people are just five years together.

And the relationship, the good feeling that they had is fast eroding. So I just wanted to have a sense, where did the story start? What brought you together? At one point you chose each other. What did you choose? I have a sense that the very things that they're fighting about were part of what originally drew them to each other. So, how did you meet? Where are you from? Well, we met in college. Yeah. And we fell in love really fast.

How old were you? I was 22. Must have been 22. She was 24. She's very,. I mean, I was really attracted to her kind of intensity, her brilliance. When you used the word intense back then, before it had taken on the meaning of fighting and conflict, how did you define it? What was attractive to you about it? That's a good question. I suppose it was just kind of the

seriousness about life. And I really admire that. Yeah, you have heart. You have a lot of heart. And that's what I love about you. That's what I've always been attracted to. For me, when we met, he was so tender. Like I never received a lot of tenderness from anyone really, no one in my life. And I was very attracted to that sort of like gentleness, tenderness. He had a very slow and appreciative way about himself, a very harmonious way, I would say. That was very magnetic. Beautiful. And are you still able to access all of this?

Or if this feels like it is eroding because you've got... For me, it does feel like it's eroding. I suppose the associations that I have with our relationship are... You don't feel it's safe. Yeah, I suppose that's it. I haven't been able to come to our relationship and feel like it's the place where I can be safe. I don't feel that stability of the love is first in our relationship. My experience has been,

it's this interchange of love and contempt. It's like, I love you one day and you said this thing that really upset me and I'm not going to talk to you and I actually hate you the next day. And to me, it's so incongruous. I'm overwhelmed. How bad does it get? Terrible lately. As in?

As in, like, there will be one thing that is said, and then I'm the one who escalates. Like, I'll get to this place where I'm like, I feel like you don't care about me. I feel like, you know, like those types of accusations. And then, well, now I'm going to move all your stuff out of the room, down the stairs, into another room, whatever. Don't be here with me right now we can't do this clearly yeah it'll be like that you move the stuff or you throw the stuff throw both so you you throw you yell You yell. You yell. Yes. You shove. You push.

You what? No. No push. You throw things at each other. Throw a plate at me. Just down the steps. But I guess it wasn't really like at me. It wasn't intended to hurt me.

Maybe it was just kind of emphatically, you know. I'm asking just to have a sense of the point at which you shut down and you fight as if you have nothing to lose. Yeah. They both are clearly distressed at the way that they unravel. And they're very honest in describing what they do, what happens between them. They didn't have to do a demo in the session. There was no need for them to actually escalate into a fight. They were able to describe it with the sadness, with the shame,

with a lot of feelings that accompany it. But it leads me to want to explore with them not what they're fighting about, but what they're fighting for. What is underneath? What is each of them trying to protect? She says, You're not there for me. I thought you were tender, you were gentle, you were caring. Now I experience it as absent.

He says, I thought you were intense, took life seriously, were fearless. Now you're hysterical and erratic. Beginning to experience your partner as a threat that switch is one feature that is often present in a high conflict couple. I want to just pick up on one thing you said before. He brought tenderness. And I have not experienced much tenderness in my life. Followed, when we fight, I'm the hard-edged. I become the one who has no tenderness.

I become like the people that I grew up with or have lived with, is what went through my head. Is that? Yes. There's such a contrast between the tenderness that you sought and the hard edge that then is brought out of you when you no longer experience him as tender, but you experience him as absent or passive or not engaged or,

you know, his slowness becomes passivity. Yes, absolutely. And her intensity becomes aggression. So you've lost the core reason of what drew you to each other because you're fighting other things that are more historical than just both of you. Because once we married, we became family. And once we became family, we began to bring into our relationship the stuff that each of us had experienced in our own families. Yes. Now I need to know what.

I mean, I want to hear it more from you. Where did you grow up? With whom? What context? So I grew up, I was brought up in a pretty middle class. I have both my parents growing up and my sister. You're number one or two? I'm number one. Number one. In a literal way, the favorite person.

And your parents are from where? So my dad is a white man. He's a teacher. My mom is Filipino. She came from a first, I guess she's second generation. Yeah. I had a very happy childhood. You know, just I suppose from being like suburban, middle class. It was fairly sheltered, you know.

How did people communicate, relate, connect, disconnect, reconnect with each other? I didn't observe a lot of conflict between my parents. I think it was extremely important to them, probably if they did have conflict, to kind of hide that from us. It's a very loving family. Everybody knows that we're super supportive of each other, you know, and we'll be there for whatever, whenever. And harmony supersedes. Yes, yes. Harmony supersedes.

There wasn't really... Confrontation. There wasn't really confrontation or there wasn't really a... I mean, there wasn't any way that I really observed coming up, like, this is how we navigate conflict. You know, this is how we talk it out. Never had that model, really. And we don't say what we really think and feel or we do.

Or we measure it by how people react to it. That's a good question. I say gauge by reaction. And like, they're more so put it into humor. I mean, yeah, the first holiday I ever spent with them, his dad was in the kitchen with his aunt and they're taking shots. And he's like, oh, look, your name is on this shot glass and it says bitch on it. And she looks at him and goes, huh, you can tell she's kind of upset. And she kind of like laughs nervously and walks away. And this was shocking to me because I was like, oh, my goodness, we're calling each other bitches. So it seems that like the men, for example, his family, they all say something, throw something into the conversation. And if the women react, then it's like that's how you know that maybe you shouldn't have said that. Either someone will kind of correct you in a humorous way in his family or maybe they're just doing it behind closed doors after everyone goes home yeah i mean i would say

it could that could be the case do people get mad do people get sad do people do you actually have a sense of what goes on with people or the collective good is what dominates and the individual will modulate their affect and their thoughts? I think they probably hide it. I mean, they probably hide it, you know, because I'm not really aware of a lot of it. The bond comes first, I suppose. But are you also saying that because the bond comes first, regardless of people's feelings, what drives the bond is loyalty, duty, obligation, harmony, not how you feel about the people. Yes. about the people yes and so does that then make you less aware less able to articulate your feelings

your thoughts and then you find this woman who as you call intense you know what you see is what you get yeah and things are clear absolutely And she tells it as it is. Of course, sometimes more than you care to hear. Because you've all gotten to the extremes of this. Absolutely. And she not only tells you as it is, she says, I can continue to experience the bond even when I fight and I disagree. They don't stand in a contradiction for her.

And that may have been very attractive at first, but also very new and different. So, you know, I like to fight, she says. You know, even if I say I'm out of here and I'm gone and I, you know, we should end this. It's like words for effect yeah yeah that's

but they stick on you that's right and it takes you a while to come back from there yeah maybe it's a thing where I don't know if she's actually going to come back yeah when you say you're walking away and telling me things like, this means our divorce, it's new to me.

I mean, I'm giving signals to you that your idea of stability, a really important word for your sense of family, I'm giving you signals you're not going to have that with me yes yeah or that may not be possible in the future exactly i'm getting that it's better that i say yes so we can avoid having this confrontation that kind of implodes our day and well it might or might it might not but that's your association that's my association like kind of with your family like we are stable because we don't argue so therefore with leah and our family we'll be stable if i avoid the argument that's right and the more she will talk for you and the more the only times you will say something is when you think that what she said is fundamentally incorrect. Absolutely.

Give me a little bit of your background because I need to get a little bit more of a picture from both of you. Yes. Okay. That makes sense. So I'm from the D.C. area. I grew up there with both my parents for a short time until I was like six years old. My dad is a black man from Miami, but very much a Southerner. And then my mom is Polynesian. She's from American Samoa. My parents, they were together for a time until I was like six. We, I would say, were a more like lower middle class, working class type family.

It was just my dad working, essentially, and supporting us. And then one day when I was six years old, after a weekend breakfast, same as every other week, there was just a moving van outside and he was gone. And yeah, we just didn't see him for a while. Eventually, we lost that house that we were in. And then we were homeless. Yeah, we lived with a support system. So there will be other mothers,

one of them that we could live with for a while. And not even a year into that, we were able to get on our feet and get our own apartment again. My sister is now 17 and she's working to help pay bills. My mom is at work all the time. And I was kind of the oldest at that point. And so we would walk ourselves to school, cook dinner. And then, yeah, when I became more of a teenager, a preteen, my parents got back together suddenly. They became born again Christians and they said, we need to forgive each other. We need to mend this household. It was kind of shocking to me because the whole dissolution of the marriage, my mom would be calling my dad repeatedly, leaving messages over and over. I will never forgive you for what you've done to me and

my children, et cetera, et cetera, because he wasn't there for us. He wasn't there when my sister was paying bills, you know, or I was picking up my, I said my son, my brother from daycare, like at like nine years old, like he wasn't there. And so I do have definitely my own perception of what it means to be strong in your family. And then I also have this piece of me that I never wanted to have a family and have that be the cross that I die on. I never wanted to be the type of woman who had a husband and kids and was like, well, I'll just kill myself to see what will make their life feel stable or good or I can just be quiet and it doesn't matter what I need,

what's going on with me how valued I feel when you listen to her describe a piece of her background but also the way that certain words have taken on a particular meaning for her right right? Stability for you. Yes. She experiences a subjugation for women and herself. On the other hand, stability also means that you don't leave the way he did. Yes. leave the way he did. On the other end, when you fight and you explode, there's a part of you that, this is just my thought, you know, that every fight you're

standing up for yourself. In every fight you're making sure that you're not in the position that your mother was in. And so every fight you're making sure that you're not in the position that your mother was in and so every fight the smallest and the biggest becomes a fight of sustainability a fight for emancipation a fight for women's rights a fight for it's like you do radical revolution with your husband in every fight, in every argument. And then you fight as if you have nothing to lose when that's not the case. And I think that you said two things before

that are very important. Some days I feel loved and some days I experience the contempt. That, to me, is a core issue. And then you said something that is very important, which is it's extremely important for me to not be dependent, helpless, at the mercy of others, even though my mother, while she was helpless,

she may not have had the resources of working in the materiality that comes with that, but she definitely had relational resources that came in very, very handy at a time when all of you needed it. It's just that we don't value that type of resourcefulness in the same way. And you pride yourself on your self-reliance and you resent how much you had to do normally. Yes. Very understandably so. And so every time you do something and it starts to feel like it's not equal, it becomes instantly, here I am in the very place that I promised myself I would never be.

And now I'm intense. I'm fighting with my past. But you need to understand that so that you don't just think, why is she making such a big fuss? That doesn't mean it stays this way, but you have to know that the big fuss is not because the laundry matters so much. Absolutely. Or let's pick the example that

you walked in with i wanted to make sure that our little boy is well attended yes and at no point did you say to me i want to make sure that you feel okay because you're living for the day and i know that in order for you to be able to do this session and be able to feel present you need to know that our little one is taken care of yes and that this idea of who is taking care of who is a core theme in her life mm-hmm nobody took care of her and she took care of little ones when she herself was nine years old. Yes. When I listen to myself in a session, a lot of what I do is watch the pacing.

I need to say something, then I stop. Then I watch to see the reaction or I let them respond to what I just said. That gives me the feeling that my interpretation is being absorbed. It makes sense. They recognize themselves in it. They feel less alone because I see them. In this moment, I just felt like suddenly I was talking at them. It's not easy for me to listen to myself because there are moments where I just really wished that I had stopped, that we just sit in silence if need be and let this land. At the same time, I see that both of them want to understand,

why is this happening to me? Why do I find myself there? How did I get here? And while I feel like I'm talking a lot, maybe too much, I also watch their body language, their face, their eyes, their shaking heads that are saying to me, yes, this is actually grounding. This is centering. Don't stop. So sometimes I think I could do with less, but I notice that I talk more because I sense an invitation, a request on the part of the people that there's something stabilizing about making sense of something that can feel so often out of control. I feel in our relationship, I'm put in this position.

When you walk away, I have to follow you. And that's the only way that we can keep our relationship going is you walk away because you're fed up because you don't have the patience because you don't have the grace and I can recognize in the moment when we're not talking about what we're talking about anymore. I just want to reassure you that... That I don't need to walk away. That we can disagree. What is walk away? Walk away is... I mean, well, literally what I'm talking about is getting up, going upstairs, saying I'm done with the conversation.

There's no coming back. And there's some times where it happens before I even have the opportunity to ask what happened. What did I say? It's more immediately apparent with her that when she experiences his absence, she protects herself the way she learned to protect herself in her own family, where she literally lived with the absence of her parents. And as I turn to him, I'm aware of two things he just said in passing almost. One is, when you go upstairs, I'm afraid you won't come back.

And I guess I better say yes to make sure that you don't dismantle our family. I don't want you to do with me what was done to you. And that's the safety he's really talking about. He wants to be able to be more confrontational with her, but he needs to know that she'll be there on the rebound. You've told me this many times before. I don't agree that you don't know why I walk away, because I'm super vocal. I feel that you are you. Can I stop you one second? I feel that you is never a feeling.

I feel that you leads to a thought about him. Yes, my perception. So if you have thoughts about him, that's one thing. If you have feelings, that's another thing. But the minute you put the injunction that, what follows is not a feeling. But usually a judgment or a criticism about him. Yeah.

Now, what happens if she goes upstairs and she says, I'm done with this? Sometimes I'll take a break. Then I'll go upstairs. I'll ask her what happened. You know, can we talk about it? Because I want to reassure her. And I want to comfort her. Do you do it with words or do you also do it physically?

With words usually. What happens if you try to reach out physically? Sometimes she'll push me away or she's cold. And then do you let go immediately? Or does your desire to comfort her say, we need a hug? Usually I let go. Sometimes I feel like I'm, you know, I'm trespassing if I do that. And, you know, maybe there are things that need to be said. There's a point where I feel I just can't reach her.

Like it doesn't really matter what I'm saying. Which is why I'm asking you, we are all bilingual, at least. We communicate with our bodies and we communicate with words and we communicate with our faces and our gestures with words and we communicate with our faces and our gestures so this is a question for you if he was to hold you even when you're cold

would you experience it as trespassing or might you experience it as trespassing? Or might you experience it as he can really withstand me and he has the patience to wait till I come back? Because I've just gone into the nine-year-old part of me. Yes, I would say the second one. I've never felt that it was trespassing. But he doesn't know that. Yeah.

I think that's kind of your assumption just because you are a little bit more give people space. I want to give you an image you've seen your little one sometimes he stands in the crib and he's crying yeah and you go to pick him up yeah but when you pick him up he arcs and you hold him steady without fear of trespassing until he falls inside your chest an adult that is cold or an adult that jerks is our version of arcing.

Yeah. If you want to come and say nothing and you come and hold, but you hold with the confidence that you hold your little one because you know that in that moment that's really what they need is comfort not stability comfort then you hold until they give themselves over but they don't do it immediately because they're back in the part of them that is that child that is shutting down because there's nobody to rely on yeah can you do it with your little one

okay it's the same idea. I like that. And sometimes it really is about staying. Yeah. But no talking. You don't talk to the little one. is you're trying to talk with someone when neither of you have access to language that makes sense so the conversation is for afterwards and it should not start with what did I do

what did I say absolutely because. Because it's false. Because you pretend to want her to bring you into the correction facility, but in fact you have no, you don't agree with it. So you set her up. In my language, it's a passive aggressive move you're nice like your mom dad and uncle aren't like this i told him this before he comes from a family of teachers i've told him i feel like you're talking to me like i'm the teacher i'm the principal i'm supposed to wag my finger and you won't upset me and i just want you to understand me yeah i feel that life yeah so the next time you come in asking what did i do wrong what did i say to

upset you please correct me please you know um what what what should be the punishment and with some humor please because by the time's going to answer you about what you did to annoy her, she's going to be annoyed. Yeah. And you're going to feel unjustly accused. Because you think of yourself as a good guy. You think she has the temper and you're the sweet one. I tell him this all the time.

You're laughing at me or with me. I don't know which one it is here. I'm laughing because we will say things and allude to this. And I think we know this. I've told you this. I feel really uncomfortable being labeled the argumentative one when I feel like he argues too. And he argues back. And so why am I?

I told him recently, just because you don't raise your voice doesn't mean you don't explode. Because I feel the passive aggression. It just bothers me more because I wish I just had it on the table so I could, you know, I could come from it. But you know, what you don't enough take seriously is that you do scare him. Yes, I do. You know, when you start throwing dishes and throwing his shit down the stairs and all of that, that is scary. scary because in that moment now you need to talk because

in that moment it's the slightest thing can just that's what you think is the slightest thing exactly what I think is the slightest thing or what I think is you is benign or even it's just. But you understand now that the slightest thing is just a thing that gets it going. Yes.

It usually is important to ask yourself what's underneath the anger. Anger serves a function. Yes. It usually is an attempt to protect ourselves from something so in some way because you instantly go into the what did i do or i don't think i did anything or what i did wasn't such a bad thing in the first place and you're busy with the justifications around your actions, you lose your ability to just take a quick check-in and see what the hell is going on.

Absolutely. Yeah. You're very busy making sure that you are the good guy. Yeah. And so you're arguing about the seriousness of the infringement and you get into a debate about it's the slightest thing. No, it's a bigger thing. And it has nothing to do with that.

Yeah, that's right. Both of you wanted to make sure that you have the proper child care for your kid. Don't lose sense of that. You each had a different idea of how to get there, but you had a shared goal. Yeah. And you lose the vision. Yes.

I tend to lose the vision when I feel he's not listening and receiving what's important to me, what I'm trying to say, then I no longer want to have a conversation because I feel at that point not listened to. I get it. I understand that it feels like I can't talk to him, so I'll go and talk with myself upstairs or somewhere. But it's not, you each want the other person to be the one that makes the difference. And at some point you ask yourself, what can I do differently?

You know, you want him to hear you, but it's not particularly clear that you heard him. You've already told him he was stupid or ridiculous or whatever the words you you and that will end it and you want her to not be impatient or to have more grace but you lose sight of basically acknowledging with her they appreciate what you're trying to accomplish so as long as you each think i need you to listen to me and you don't ask yourself how well of a listener am I, you're missing a point.

Yes. Okay? So what helps? What have you tried? What could you each do that you know would make things better? This is a question to both of you. Well, I mean, what do you think? What would help?

Well, I think it has been helping. When you come to me and say, what can I do? What are you feeling? In a more open way instead of the what did I do? What went wrong? Let's dissect it and keep going. That's helped a lot recently. The hugging and the holding and staying, it helps because there is a part of me that feels like you still

don't understand, but are you going to stay here? Are you going to still stay even though I'm still upset and still hug? You bring a container when you put your arms around and you bring something that says the connection is solid. And it may say, I don't understand you, but I still love you. Yeah. Mm-hmm. By the time I met this couple, I was thinking intensely about conflict. Conflict in relationships, about how we are experiencing a type of atrophy of our social muscles, of how to deal with difference and discord in relationships.

There's always been couples who fight a lot, but there's also a real lessening of skills in how to actually engage fiercely with each other, disagree, fight, but stay connected. And so I created a course and I thought of them a lot as I was doing this course, which you can find on my website at estherperel.com and where I distinguish between productive and destructive conflict, between this notion of what is it we're really fighting about and for when we get locked in repeated patterns with our partners. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network

in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Eva Walchover, Destry Sibley, Hyweta Gatana, Sabrina Farhi, Eleanor Kagan, Kristen Muller, and Julianne Hatt. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker.

We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, Jen Marler, and Jack Saul.