Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - I Think I Married the Wrong Person

Episode Date: April 15, 2024

She gets angry when she feels devalued and put down. He intellectualizes and rationalizes instead of sympathizing. Esther helps them to see each other and work towards dissolving the patterns they developed to protect themselves. For the first time on the U.S. stage, Esther invites you to an evening unlike any other. Join her as she shines a light on the cultural shifts transforming relationships and helps us rethink how we connect, how we desire – and even how we love. To find a city near you, go to https://www.estherperel.com/tour2024 Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real. We've been together for about six years now. I'm not sure if I married the right partner because there are lots of issues in our marriage. I know that I do have some anger issues. My wife has a short temper.

She can get really heated pretty fast. And now, when it's in the presence of my heart, I cannot accept that. Zero tolerance. If he says something and I feel like I'm being pushed down or talked down to, I'll get really angry or upset right away. If I'm the loud one, he's the quiet one. He thinks he's the good one and tells me I'm the bad one.

She's very stubborn, and that causes a lot of issues between us. And I feel like that's a bit of the culture as well. If someone helps us understand how to navigate through that stubbornness, I think our life will be much better. In their introduction, her question was very clear. Did I marry the wrong guy? Given that they had been dating for quite a few years but she got pregnant and her Catholic family made it clear that you don't have a child out of wedlock and so the marriage ensued. When he's asked what brings you he said her temper, loses it too much she yells and the one thing i can no

longer accept is that she will scream and our daughter is right there and this is one of those sessions where people come in with one story and they're going to live with a very different one. Where are you from? Originally? I usually let people guess. I'll give you a hint. No, I mean, I can guess. Okay, go ahead.

So I say Morocco. There you go. Okay. Where is your family from originally? Portugal. So it's a Portuguese Catholic family. Yes. And a Moroccan Muslim family. Yes. And the world that you are creating together is? American. So tell me more. About my family? You can tell me, yes. You can tell me, you know, what makes my family the way that it is, is the story that it has in relation to being Portuguese, Catholic,

what they did, how many kids we were, what the religion stands for in our family, et cetera, et cetera. And then, you know, how people spoke to each other and where I learned to yell. Right. So I grew up as the oldest of seven with a lot of responsibilities in a strict household. Your parents are the ones who came from Portugal?

Yes. Or your grandparents? My parents. So that resonated with me. An immigrant coming from a different country, making, trying to make a name for himself. That was something that I really liked because my dad is a very hard worker and owns a business. And you know, I look up to him for that. At the same time, growing up, my father didn't have the emotional intelligence to, you know, he yells a lot.

He doesn't know how to express himself, so he yells. But looking at it, my mom didn't either because it would be a lot of yelling. It would be a lot of yelling. It would be like chaos. I mean, you know, getting hit with anything that was around. What did you just see? Or what did you just feel on your skin? I just felt, you know, the smack.

And with a wooden spoon. And it's funny because it's always a... No, it's not funny. No, it's not funny. No, it's not funny. I remember walking up the steps and having my father pull my hair that was in a ponytail down the steps. And I was a teenager and it hurt a lot. And I felt betrayed that my dad could hurt me like that.

That's what I saw. So much just happened in this one moment. I mean, in the first sentence, she says, I have an anger issue. But then she says, I don't like when people put me down or devalue me. And I decided that I needed to hear that second sentence as much as the first. And she just confirmed this. Yes, she gets angry, but she may not have just an anger issue.

She has a hurt issue. She protects herself against the harshness that she experienced from this father who she sees with great clarity, but who nevertheless attacked her, hit her, put her down, and basically tried to gain control by losing control. And it's so easy for us to look at a person who gets angry without seeing, as we see with her so immediately immediately that the person who gets angry was hurt, and that hurt people often hurt others.

If I may interrupt? No? Okay. No, you can respond, but not interrupt. Okay. Meaning you can respond to what you just heard. Yeah, interrupting energy, but responding to what she just said in defense to her parents. Because you don't know them, but I know them. Right. So to give you a different...

No, not yet. Okay. Not yet. If you want to respond just to what's right next to you. If you're going to start giving explanation and background... Yeah. Then we need to wait. If you can respond to what you're feeling right now as you're hearing her

that's a different story I respond to her the best way I know anybody can come for me so when I'm not in distress, not feeling good, if you would explain whatever happened, just like you did earlier, with a much more rational, simple, or... Your wife just remembered something. She saw herself on the steps. She saw dad, basically. How can this man who supposedly loves me treat me the way he does? She didn't blame. She didn't accuse.

She just relived it. And she knows the bind she's in. Because she probably told herself, I'll never do this. I'll never be like this. And yet some of this lives inside of her. A part. A part of her. What does your body want to do at this moment?

Do you want to stay in the corner? Do you want to come closer? Do you want to put your hand on her lap? What does your, not your head, your leaning, your physical response is what? I'm much more in tune with the story and thinking and rationalizing. Yeah, that's a problem. That's a problem.

You push yourself in the corner, you look through the window, and basically your whole body says, get me out of here. Oh, I don't want to get out of here. I'm very into the story. And come closer. Yeah, but I'm thinking. Talk. No. No, no, your thinking isn't helpful in this moment.

Your thinking in this moment puts you in some analytic box that is absolutely not what people need when they're upset. So, shall we ask her? The source is right here. Yes, yes. Go ahead. Do you want anything? Yeah, I need a hug. Okay.

Okay. We just started the session, but they both have shared quite immediately their survival strategies, their, what sometimes is called their adaptive child, a la Terry Real, or their defense mechanisms, or their protection styles.

She erupts and explodes when she feels hurt and put down. He goes into his head and starts to think, to rationalize, and to basically detach himself. And that is a ton of information. I don't know yet what I'm going to do with this, but there is the current behavior, and then there is what fermented this, what brought this into being, so that these are such well-rehearsed responses, hers and his. He's very aware of hers. He doesn't yet know that this is his.

And I'm just taking this all in, and I have a lot of triage to do. But do you also want to hear? No. Okay. I mean, I know you don't, but here. But I think. You're so stupid. No.

Just shut your mouth, please. There is a time for everything. Okay. You want your wife to be softer. And when she is, your response is basically telling her without you meaning to, but it says to her, it's not safe to be softer here. And that's not what you want. Okay. I mean, I think I'm pretty soft or really soft when need to be, but... It is not about you being soft.

It's about you tolerating her being soft. You've decided that you're the softy and she's the hard ass. Yeah. I mean, not really, but... I said it in a certain way to make a point. I get it. She's upset. There's nothing else you need to do

than just to be there for two minutes while she's upset. there are unfortunately maybe super smart and interesting and I'd love to hear them, but they're not helpful in the moment. It's about timing. It's about awareness of what's around you and cultivate that awareness of what people feel and need. When they feel and they need you analyze and you evaluate the validity of their feelings. But with her it's different. I mean I do everything where... just take it in ok

I mean see I actually really appreciate what's happening because you show you're doing with me you're a butt guy

butt and you correct and you course control and you're deflecting and you correct and you course control and you're deflecting and you're squeezing it and while you're experiencing in your life that other people are squeezing you i don't really have anything squeezing me right now or since a while maybe you just start doing it with me. So I had an observation, I had an idea.

It could be wrong. But for me, to not be able to express it is an issue. And here I think... You asked me, what shall I do? I gave you a suggestion. Okay. What I would like to invite you is to ask yourself, at a moment when my partner shares a rather difficult experience. Why is my opinion on something that I'm thinking about

so essential that I can't relate? This is the question for you. So tell me what happened to you before when she was telling the story of her dad. I'll give you an example. The feeling, not the thought. Okay. What did you feel?

Did you feel close, caring, compassionate, patient, curious, turned off, cold, shut down, uninterested? No, no, no, absolutely not. I feel the pain. I do. I'm very sensitive. So that's why I was trying to say, like, her family or her, especially her father, are very good people. That doesn't matter. I know, but to me, that was how I can help you feel better at the moment.

With logic. I don't care about that. I know my dad's a good man. Okay. But he hurt me in that situation and I need you to be empathetic to me and say that must have been horrible to experience that I'm sorry and I'm here that's what I needed from you not a justification on why I shouldn't feel this way. Because my dad is a good guy

in 95% of the other things. That wasn't helpful. Okay. And it made me feel distant. Okay. Even though you mean well, sometimes what you do can still hurt. And it's not about the intention.

It's about the receipt of it. Okay. And I don't receive logic when I'm crying as caring. This is such a critical moment because it would be so easy to see him as not able to experience any attunement, having no empathy. And when he says, I'm very sensitive, yes, he absolutely is. He's so sensitive that he can't tolerate, he can't stand seeing her so upset. And in his mind, if he explains the circumstances of her father, he hopes it will make her feel better. It's not that

he's not feeling, it's that he's feeling so much. That's very important for me to keep in mind, because it's easy to think, oh, he's just intellectualizing and rationalizing. But in fact, what he's trying to do is make her feel better by having her understand her dad. Of course, none of it will work, but it's very important for me. I think it's important for many therapists working with men to actually not miss the point. What may look like he can't stand her being upset is not because he has no feelings, but it's because he has so much feelings.

He gets overwhelmed by it. He feels for her and he wants to do whatever he can to make her feel better. And that's not instantly apparent. What's the connection between what just happened and the yelling? The presenting issue is you're angry, but this is about what happens when actually you're sad. And there is something about you not being allowed to be sad

that made you become angry in the first place. Did you show your dad when he hurt you? Or did you decide you would never let him see how he got to you? No. All right. Tell me. Well, I never put it together that my anger was a mask for sadness but I know I get angry when I get frustrated when I hear something that I don't like

and when I'm overwhelmed I get angry you know my mom was depressed raising us kids anxious and depressed and I feel like I'm falling into the same pattern and I don't know how to control it I know you should say you don't know how to manage it but it does feel like it takes over you and my dad was not a very good partner to my mom during this because his response was, you just get up out of bed and you do what you have to do. And I'm very grateful that you're my partner

because during the times that I'm not feeling good, you make me feel comfortable and safe. It's sometimes comes a price where if somebody close to me is not feeling well, I stop my life and focus on them and get them better. But you shouldn't have to get me better you just have to be by my side I know and also but you don't know that you tried to fix everyone that's in pain and you don't need to do that they just need you to be standing with them I know

but it's you don't realize that. You don't want to see people in pain? Just take it in. Just take it in. She's saying something. I'm hearing very loud and clear what you're saying. I know that. You don't need to fix me. I think... Shh.

But also... I love you, but sometimes you need to get out of your head. Yeah. Where did you learn to fix? I think I've always tried to fix things. Like in general, like if I'm in a group of people, there's a problem I feel like I need to fix. Can I ask her what she saw when she came to visit?

What did I see in this family? Yeah. What did you learn about the fixer? I don't think she's as observant as I am, but go ahead. Now that you've been put in your place. It's not a quality. Why say that? Why?

Why? What is the point of saying that? There's nothing wrong with it. Yes, it is. It's putting me down. That's not what I mean by it. It's a fact. Okay. I'm very observant. She's not. And I don't think that one is better than the other.

You know? Yeah, I disagree with that. Okay. Yeah. You know. Yeah, I disagree with that. Okay. One thing that may help you on occasion is instead of what is my intention, you may want to ask yourself what will be the outcome of this. Okay. What will this do to us if I say this? Is that a useful thing to say?

Not is it a fact? And sometimes in a relationship, we may be right, but that doesn't mean we are wise. And wise is sometimes to know what not to say. Because it hurts. You may not mean to hurt. You just wanted to make an observation. But it hurts.

What I don't want is to sugarcoat things. I don't want to walk on eggshells around her. I want this to be as natural as possible, as normal as possible, as healthy as possible. This is not. You have an idea of how things need to be, but if you look outside of you, you will notice that the result isn't that.

And now you have a choice. You can continue to be dogged about it and think that she is the stubborn one. Or you can say, the effect of this isn't what I intended. Maybe I should take a look. I find myself a lot more of what you just said. Like this is not working out

and let's try something different. Okay, that's great. Because when she just now in a very nice way said, you know, that wasn't necessary. That hurts. You basically came back with, why should that hurt you? It shouldn't hurt you.

It's just normal. And I don't want to work on eggshells. And I should be able to express myself. And I am actually a much better observer than you. And that is just a fact. Now, I just play this. Yes. I dramatize for effect.

I hope I didn't sound bad. But if the drama is the effect of what you said on another person. Presented that way, yes. And all of this, I say to you, because you would like your wife to be less angry. You're a deeply, deeply feeling person. Me? Yes. Okay.

And so are you. But you find yourself trapped in how should a man respond to feeling deeply. And your response is at odds with the depth of how you feel. Okay. And you react according to a code that you've learned as well. Okay. Fixing. Fixing is more often a masculine code.

Okay. I'm listening. And what your wife says to you is, I get through it myself. This is not new to me. But there is a huge difference when you don't get through it alone. And what I need from you is to not be alone with this.

And I find my way out. You actually have to do a lot less than what you think. And if I find a room, a space with you where I can be sad when I'm sad, then actually I will unlearn the fact that anger is the primary way with which I express all my other emotions. It's a beautiful story. You like it? I do.

He doesn't believe it. No, that's not true. I'm being a little bit sarcastic. But it does sound very poetic. The reality is... Do you take in anything people say i do well why are you always quick to respond why can't you just hear and then respond to what you've heard this is i think a problem between us is that you don't respond to what you've been listening to you respond to what you have in your head.

You know what? Sometimes and sometimes not. He took it in. If he saw the poetics of it, he took it in. But he's a bit on the ADD side. And that's how he processes. And so you have to get used to it. So do I. Yeah. You know, he processes it in the equivocation. It's okay. Okay. I know you think it comes so fast that he has not even had a time to think. But he's fast. Okay. So I think it would be good if sometimes he takes one breath before he responds.

Let's see. And by the way, the other way is very, very true. So if I talk to her, most of the time she has not registered what I said. And it goes to anger and it goes to things that are not in tune with what F says. Right. But the fascinating thing is that none of this is happening at this minute and you bring in stuff that constantly prevents from something different to happen. One of the very important things in a couple is that when there actually is an interaction that is different,

don't poison it. It's like if somebody is finally hearing you, don't say to them, you never listen to me. I understand. So go back to my poetics. Should I say it again? Do you want to say it? You should say it.

Yeah. So the more space I have to be vulnerable and just exist in my emotions, the less I'll lash out when I have other feelings because I'm able to feel other things and be okay and be in a safe space and not resort to anger when I'm scared, frustrated,. So I ask you. Yes. Because what you know from music is the end of a phrase. Something that lands. And then there is a moment of quiet. And then you pick up from that place into the next phrase I think what would change things a lot between the two of you is if you could drop into that moment that beat of silence.

The next time you have a conversation, you should have music playing at the same time. It'll give you pacing. On the other hand, don't personalize it. It's not meant to cut you off. It's a difference in the rhythm and you may have to just say exactly the way you said it today just wait

I just need you here help him succeed at the very thing you want from him what you're saying is like sometimes when I speak right after she's done talking, it's automatic, you didn't hear what I said. So she shuts me off and I'm not able to finish or even start my sentence most of the time. time do you know that it's partly because she's experiencing exactly what you are experiencing it's like she gets yanked out of it by your rationalizing she barely has swallowed it

that you're already qualifying it and it's experienced as I can't have my feeling. And then the anger, the part of her that over long years honed the thing that the only valid way then to be is to be angry is going to come at you. And then you're going to say, I can't live with this. And all I'm saying to you is there's something you do in here in this sequence that unadvertently, so I don't think you mean it at all, is contributing to the very thing that you would like to be different. And a tweak here can go deep. Okay. Here is a moment where I just want to pause and explain something. This is one of the most frequent sequences that we see in a couple,

is what we call the more the more. What we do is we draw from the other person the very behaviors that we do not want, which is what I'm saying to him, is if you don't want her to get angry, give her just a tiny bit of space to be upset, to be hurt, to be frustrated. When she gets that, she doesn't have to resort to anger because she learned to be angry as the only feeling that was acceptable, because all the others were not. When she gets angry, he gets confirmed that she's impossible. What do you do with impossible, irrational, hysterical people? You contain them with reason, which only makes her more angry,

which only makes him more reasoning and more rational and more intellectualizing. In rigid patterns, they are stiff. But at the same time that they're stiff, a micro move where one person changes something actually changes the whole sequence. But for that, the person has to be willing to do the move themselves, because a rigid pattern is one in which each one is waiting for the other one to make the move.

And I don't know that I succeeded in getting that one across. In this situation, I think a lot of things hurt me a lot when it comes to my daughter. Your daughter? Uh-huh. Can I ask you something? My guess is that at this moment, when you see her do things you don't like with your daughter, you get annoyed. Right. Right.

And so you get annoyed and then you become critical. And then if you become critical, then she becomes defensive. And then if she becomes defensive she ends up doing more of the very thing that you don't want her to do which she doesn't necessarily want to do either by the way it's not like she thinks it's great to yell

fair enough? yeah ok? I mean if you could you also remember that when she gets angry, it's often because she's overwhelmed, anxious, frustrated, scared, feeling inept, inadequate, stuff like that.

And if when you think that, you could, instead of getting annoyed, just reach out to her there's a good chance that many times it would turn if i'm hearing this correct beautiful if i was to have her character and vice versa, then she should do what you just described, correct? She should... If you're feeling angry? Yeah, and I'm explosive and I'm yelling. Okay, well, there's a difference between anger and explosive, too. I'm describing what I feel from you when there's a problem.

It's explosive and angry and overdramatic. Your job will be to be more calm. It's just to name it. See, you will learn to say, I'm overwhelmed. You will learn to say, I need help. That's your role. So that he knows what to do. He can help you in those moments.

See, I'm thinking, how can they help each other? You will learn to name your feelings so that he doesn't just see everything as anger and neither do you. But you also intuitively now know that many times when she's angry, it's six other things. And so you can help her too.

Are you overwhelmed? Do you need help? Let me take over. You go to the room for a minute. Just chill. It's fine. I got it. I got it.

Instead of being upset with her reaction, take over in a kind way. In a kind way. Not from the place of I can't stand what she does, but from the place of obviously she's struggling. Okay. So my view on this. Do you like it, by the way? I do, but it's not what I want implemented in my life. This is why.

If we both agree that her yelling in front of a child is unacceptable, so your approach to it is, in my head, and no offense please, it's just like the band-aid kind of fix. What I want is to be like, okay, so how can we understand and fix the anger problem? Because it's like... I just gave it to you. Exactly. No.

It's one way. I have no way of knowing if this is the right way or guaranteed. All I know is you're stuck. So I'm offering you one path to get exactly to where you want I am very clear where you want it to be and if

it was so simple as for her just to say I hate doing this this is not the mother I want to be and therefore it stops then we wouldn't be sitting here so your push I want to be and therefore it stops, then we wouldn't be sitting here. So your push is different than mine and it's different than hers for sure. How can we get all three?

That's a choice you make. You say this woman, I liked what she suggested, let's try. Or you say this woman, I don't care what she said. I don't want to do it. This is totally up to you. I understand. Up to both of you. Well, yeah. It would be great if you did that.

I think it would help a lot if you did that because exactly what Esther said is exactly how I feel. And like what Esther was saying, when I'm angry, I feel either small, I feel incompetent, I feel overwhelmed, stressed, frustrated. So to get through to the anger would be to just offer me a little pause or, hey, I'm here. It's all right. That would get through to me.

Okay. To not get so reactive. I think what he needs to hear from you is that you don't like what you do. I don't. I can imagine. She has mentioned that to me in the past. And I'm aware of it. I appreciate that, actually.

It's very good. Because in many situations, people end up defending the thing that they actually don't care about just because they feel so attacked. So that's really good. But what I feel here is because from my past experience with her for the past five years or so, it's habitual. It's the same thing with… We're talking about how to break a pattern. We know it's habitual. All we're looking for is one beginning to break a pattern. You have to do something different.

You can't just talk. Okay. And that means to the extent that you can name a little bit what you feel. And that's hard for me too. That's right. Each of you has to feel. And that's hard for me too. That's right. Each of you has to stretch. And this is going to be clumsy. And this is not going to work out perfectly the first time. But you're going to stick to it. What really will make a difference is if you can experience the more vulnerable feelings without experiencing it with shame and self degradation and aloneness

because he's there with you and I'm cursed to hear what she has to say about that like what you think I do when you are upset and I know you definitely put me down oh yeah mm-hmm how by what you say in your tomb you know don't tell him what he does but tell him how you experience what he does because he may not mean to do any of this yeah but your experience is valid as is tell him what how it comes down on you how it lands on you so probably me putting you her dance on her hey you're screaming describing the actual fact that her voice is louder than it should be and that's me putting her down yeah when we're in a situation and i remember once you didn't like something and you said something and I just freaked

out because in that moment what that conveyed to me is you're a shitty mom now continue and I know that's not what you mean exactly I probably meant it you probably meant it sorry you meant it circumstances you did mean you're a shitty mom in those circumstances yes okay so you did mean Yeah, I probably meant it. Sorry. You meant it? In certain circumstances. You did mean you're a shitty mom? In those circumstances, yes. Okay, so you did mean to hurt in that moment? No, I just meant to describe to you that your behavior is one of a shitty mom. But... And that's not in general.

You're honest. You're honest. There is no other way. But it is not helpful. At all. It's not at all. Well, now that we're talking about it, I would never call you a shitty mom, and you know that. Of course. Especially in a situation like that.

But saying something to convey that I'm a shitty mom, because you want for me to know that because the facts say that I'm that, will only make the situation worse. Because? Because it's what I... She doesn't like codes. No, because it's what she fears she is. Exactly. Because she knows it. She knows that she's not handling the situation well because it's shaming. Yeah. And you can't make someone change by shaming.

Yeah. This competent woman who's someone change by shaming. Yeah. This competent woman who's the oldest of seven who took care of everything. Yeah. Hates it when she can't handle something. And so she's getting all twisted because it's entering through the filter of her own self-loading. I get it. That's the conflict. Conflict around getting help. Wanting it, but at the same time feeling that if you need to be helped,

it's a proof that you're not adequate. I don't know if it's just you or if it's a family culture. Do you know? I would say more of the culture. Like, I don't need any help. I'm fine. I'm okay. I think it's part of the culture.

So the whole family is organized around people needing less or needing nothing or being able to figure everything out alone. And who set the tone for that? My mom. I mean, my dad would always shame my mom for not doing things or having things done. Yeah, I guess my dad more now thinking about it that you should be able to handle it. You shouldn't need help. Like my mom was juggling kids and being the secretary for his business, but he did not want a cleaning lady at home. He thought she could handle

that too. And it was a lot on her shoulders. And she just took it. She would take the verbal abuse and still does. What would he say? You're a piece of crap. You're nothing. You're stupid. You're not worth anything. So, yeah, sometimes I feel like I'm not worth anything. So sometimes when I just look at him,

the way that he's looking at me just says to me like, what the hell are you doing? And I just freak out because I don't want to feel stupid. I don't want to feel inferior or dumb or any of those things. So I lash out. You imagine that your reaction is because he is thinking that. Yeah. There is a part of him that is not pleased with what he sees, but there is also a part of you that brings in a preceding drama. Of course. All these sentences that live inside of you, and one gaze of his ignites that entire storyline.

Which is the opposite. And I don't know how to stop it. And I never cursed at her And I don't know how to stop it. And I never cursed at her. I don't know how to stop it. I never did what her dad does to her mom. I hear you and I want to, even when he thinks you shouldn't be yelling, he's not thinking the 10 things

that your dad said to your mother. And I wouldn't do it either I think she knows that she just needs to hear from somebody I know it logically I can tell you don't't have to yell like this. But it's different to feel it. Okay. Let me feel what she's saying. Okay.

But she just witnessed you overreacting, saying shut up and all of that. And you can just turn to me and say... Because you do it a lot. Okay. I just feel like I can't be myself. You can. I cannot. We don't wanna make this worse than it is

because then you start thinking that you cannot fix it and you cannot be this and you cannot be that. Acknowledging what is does not mean that you sit in it and you can't fix it. Okay. You can sit in feelings that are not pleasant and then move on. But you have to sit with them in order to move on. So yeah, every time I would see your face, I would think, yeah, he thinks I'm a piece of shit.

And even though logically I know you don't think that, when you just look at me, that's what I'm hearing. And I have to unlearn that somehow. That it's okay to be frustrated. In my house growing up, it wasn't okay to be anything other than okay. And you know that. I know that. Right. I know. It's good what you're doing.

You're unlearning it a little bit as you're speaking. And then you're going to practice. Yeah. Because the insight is one piece, but the practice is what will lead to the change. And the practice will be a combination of you looking at him and saying, is that what you think?

And he's going to remind you, no, I'm not. I just don't think you're handling this well. But I don't mean at all that you therefore are the story that is just filling your head. And then it will become a part of me feels this way. But there's a part of me that just knows I'm frustrated and I don't like how I'm handling it. And I need his help. And he's actually offering.

That's how you dissolve a pattern like this. And if you can help me and I can help us, why shouldn't we? Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Eva Walchover,

Destry Sibley, Hyweta Gatana, Sabrina Farhi, Eleanor Kagan, Kristen Muller, and Julianne Atten. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker.

We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, Jen Marler, and Jack Saul.