Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - I Told My Friend I Was in Love with Her, Then She Told Everyone

Episode Date: January 26, 2026

Esther speaks with a young man whose confession of love for a close friend sets off a chain reaction he never expected. After exposing his love, his secret is out, his five-year relationship ends, and his friend group begins to fracture. He is now navigating heartbreak, betrayal, embarrassment, and what feels like the loss of his village. Esther helps him examine the deeper patterns beneath the chaos. Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [e-mail]. Producer’s Note: When our anonymous guests do a session with Esther for the podcast, it is an act of generosity for everyone who listens. These sessions are meant not only to support the people in the room with Esther, but all of us who learn from their stories. Our stories have many chapters, and what you hear is just one moment in someone’s journey. So even though the sessions are anonymous, please remember that real people are behind them and they may be reading your comments. Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey Esther, so I have been in love with my close friend now for six years and we're both in committed relationships, long-term committed relationships, four and five years. And I've always had this interest in her, but my good friend who introduced me to her and to the friend group that is all around her and I, he said he would not be my friend anymore if I hooked up with her or we ever became a thing. So I had a loyalty to him. Never pursued her, seriously, just as a friend. Because I wanted to be a part of her life

because I was so drawn to her. But now, four or five years later, after she moved back and we become such close friends, I still can't but help wonder if she has the same feelings for me and if she's, who I'm not meant to be with, and I can't stop thinking about her, and it's almost making me feel insane, and I definitely could use your services. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from OLLI.

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Are we dumber than we used to be? Maybe. Or maybe we're just wrong about what it means to be smart. Our brains evolved for social interactions. So when you're like talking to your friend next to you in the math class, that is actually what our brains are for. This week on Explain It to Me from Vox, our crisis of stupid and how to get our brains back. New episodes, Sundays, wherever you get your podcasts. Since I sent that, I did end up telling her how I felt.

I guess some context that I didn't put in that recording was that the first, friend who asked me or said that we couldn't be friends, she was his ex. And he had still had feelings for her when he told me that. So he still had an interest in pursuing her. And then when she did move back, that kind of, he got closure on that and figured out that they weren't ever going to be a thing. So he like eventually moved on. But at the same time, she moved back and they had their blow up. And me and her would be coming friends. I met my ex-partner. who was my current partner in that recording. After I told my friend how I felt,

she said that she would keep it between us and that she wouldn't tell her boyfriend because it wouldn't be good for us or the friend group or for my relationship or our friendship. But then she did end up telling him about three or four days later. And she didn't give me any heads up or she didn't talk to me about that at all.

and so after he found out, he came and talked to me right away and was very understanding and not like confrontational. I was just trying to understand where I was coming from and see my point of view. And then, I mean, after he found out, I felt like I had no choice, but I had to tell my partner, which led to the dissolution of our relationship. And, yeah, dissolution of a lot of things.

What happened when you told her? I mean, she said she was very shocked and surprised. But, I mean, after I told her, she said that a few days prior, she was walking with her boyfriend and had told him, like, I think my friend, me, really loves me in a not romantic way, but that he does really love me. So she obviously felt that there was, like, a deep connection. But from, yeah, I mean, when I told her, she said she was shocked. And it wasn't reciprocated. No, it wasn't reciprocated. She said she needed some time to process and then she sent me an email saying that she just saw me as a deep friend. Like we have a deep friendship and it stops and ends there. She never saw me as anything more than that.

And how did you leave this conversation? How did I leave it? Well, I was definitely upset. I definitely had anticipated that it probably wasn't mutual but I was like kind of hoping it was. because, I mean, how could you not feel this way about somebody and not hope it's mutual, especially like, you know, I was always turning over my head, like, things she would say, because, like, we were very close friends. Like, we would tell each other we loved each other, and, like, we were very close. Like, we had a lot of emotional intimacy. We talked about everything. Our relationship problems, like.

And you're saying all of this in past tense now? Yes, because, I mean, I'm saying this in past tense because right now we're, like, taking space and not talking. And I'm, I guess, I have a lot of feelings of, betrayal and hurt from her going back on her word of not telling her boyfriend and I guess like one big thing is I want to just figure out how I can get over that so much happened in such a short amount of time you have your feelings finally expressed your girlfriend of five years that leaves you this is your group of friends you may have all kinds of mixed feelings about having finally shared

with her, your heart's aching. It's not reciprocated. You did nothing wrong, except maybe being a relationship with someone that you didn't nearly care about as much as she thought you did. What are the other pieces here? I guess a key piece of detail is that me and my partner were having our own relationship issues this past summer

where she started, like, she always had intuitive doubts about a relationship where she just felt like we weren't meant to be together. And the summer came back up again and it was pretty shocking to me because we were talking about having children and getting fertility tested. And when she had those doubts, it really pushed me away. I was like, am I just dealing the inevitable by staying here? Is this like not right? Is she just not being assertive enough to like follow her intuition?

And so that's kind of what started off these feelings for my friend. resurfacing because I kind of use the idea of being with her as like an escape I guess from my own relationship issues. Romanticizing her and putting her on a pedestal instead of just dealing with my own relationship problems and yeah, I definitely like I was hoping after I told her that I could just kind of let go of those feelings and refocus on a relationship because I did, I do love my ex-partner now. And there is a lot I cherished about her and a lot I saw the potential in the future together. I just felt like I had never dealt with those feelings for my friend properly and not like

setting good emotional boundaries or even just figuring out if it was mutual from the get-go. So that's some context that was missing that I should have let you know about. Where are you now? Where am I now? In terms of, like emotionally, like in terms of what? emotionally, socially, existentially? I mean, there's... Existentially. I'm still living with my...

I'm still living with my ex. We're in the process of separating. I'll be moving out by the end of the month. I'll be moving to a different city back in with my mom for a short period of time until I find my own place. My friend, who I had the feelings for, I'm really close with her family.

Like, her brother is one of my best friends. and me and him just had a conversation this past weekend where he was just calling me to try to understand where I'm at, where my feelings are because he's like, you know, I feel like I'm in a really tough spot. She's my sister and you're one of my best friends in the world that like, you know, I just,

I can't have you guys not talk or like not being on speaking terms because like you guys are both too important to me. So I hope you can like figure this out, do whatever you need to do to like come. to a place where you guys are able to be copacetic. And the friend that asked me to not ever, gave the ultimatum saying that we couldn't be friends if I ever hooked up with her,

I had a conversation with him right after the whole situation because, like, I mean, the story was going around and it kind of got mixed up. And so I just called him to set things straight. It was a difficult conversation. He just kind of made me feel impulsive and rash, and sort of like not like thinking of the future and he just made me feel bad about what I did and was laughing a lot during the conversation which I took kind of personally so I kind of feel

like I've just been taking distance from him because I don't yeah just kind of hurt talking to him about everything and I don't see him as like a good supportive person to talk to about it so yeah I'm just kind of keeping my space from him and a lot of the other friends I've talked to about it they say, like, we don't think of you differently. They've been supportive. So socially, it's been good, but mixed, like, even her partner, me and him have commiserated and, like, grown close. And, like, a lot of the reason why I didn't want to tell her was because I didn't want to impact his mental health negatively because I know he's been struggling recently. And so, like, I feel like I lost him as a friend and her as a friend. And, yeah, a lot of loss and a lot of change. All right.

at once for sure. Yes. Yes. A lot of pieces, none of which you thought about before. I definitely, like when I was, because I had thought about it a lot, and I talked to my one friend who was not inside the friend group

about like all the possibilities of what could happen. I just thought I could trust her enough to be, like to have, you know, she told me she wasn't going to say anything. I thought that would be the case. Yes, but you understand. that she told him? Yeah, I understand why she did.

Because, I mean, even my friend said that if she really loves him, she would tell him because it's like, it's a really big secret to keep. And if he ever found out later, it would break their trust a lot. Like, right after he found out, I wasn't blaming her. I was just blaming myself for telling her, saying, like, you know, it's my fault. I should have not told you. I should have been wiser. I didn't need to put this on you guys.

It was a bit unfair of me to put it on you. I just didn't know what else to do with my emotions because I felt like I was becoming obsessive and jealous and it felt like it was going to lead me to do something more rash or, I don't know. I just felt like I was going crazy. Like I wasn't sleeping at all. Like I was just unable to sleep. I just didn't know what else to do with the emotions.

Maybe I should talk to a therapist or, I don't know. Tell me more about you and your girlfriend, or your ex-girlfriend. Because what you began to say is that you were struggling together, and what went on for you? You just thought, this is imperfect, this is clunky, this here is struggle, there is perfection, there is purity, there is,

Um, so we started off polyamorous for about eight months. And we decided not to do that anymore because it's too difficult emotionally. And we just found it easier just to focus on each other. We moved in pretty quickly. It was pandemic times. So the kind of COVID advanced all relationships, it seems like. We bought a house together. We renovated the whole house together. Like we have been through a lot. I had a death in the family. And, parental estrangement. So yeah, we definitely been through a lot. We've worked a lot on a relationship. Saw like a relationship counselor, and we've always worked hard at communicating and working on the relationship and planning dates. And we've been very intentional about the relationship.

But yeah, there has always been these inklings of doubts within her where she would even, like she wrote a broke up letter one time and left it on the table, but then I just put it away. And the doubts were about what? Just that I couldn't love her the way she needed to be, that we weren't meant to be, is the best way I could put it. And this is five years now.

This has been over five years, yeah. We were together for five and a half years roughly. And then, yeah, this past summer when she was having doubts again, it wasn't like we were having any major issues. But when she has doubts, you... come closer to her or you start to fantasize about another woman? I've always like pulled her in closer and saying like, you know, let's just, we're just having a bad day.

Let's just work on the relationship. Like it's we'll be better tomorrow. Like every ups and downs. Like we're going to like, you know, you're feeling this way. But then in a couple of weeks you're going to be like feeling a lot better. But then this past summer is where it kind of shocked me because I was like, where did this come from? And we would get in little fights and it would become like she would catastrophize and say like, you know, it's supposed to be easy.

Why can't we, why can't this just be easy? And, you know, we're not meant to be together. And I'm just like, we're just having a fight. And like, now you're like into the point where you think we're not meant to be together. And so it would just be really hard. And it would like make me doubt the relationship more every time she would do that. And me and my friend were spending a lot more time this summer together. And it was a lot.

It was very easy to hang out with her. and like we had like great commodity and like I mentioned a lot of emotional intimacy and obviously we don't have any of the relationship issues because you don't have the burden of being in a relationship together when you're just friends so you can't romanticize somebody when that happens. You are in a relationship when you are just friends

but it's a different relationship. You're right, yeah, it is very different. And issues can emerge there too. But in this instance, you start to, to have this paradox between this is complicated, everything's an issue and their things flow, and they're easy and there is no friction. And then what happens?

You know, after the major issues we were having, we just kind of kept going forward. I don't think I probably addressed them enough or was honest with myself enough about how much they kind of pushed me away and the feelings I was repressing for my friend just kept becoming stronger and stronger into the point where I couldn't not think about them

and they just, I was like these are a problem like I'm emotionally cheating on my partner by thinking about being with my friend and like I need to do something about this and so I talked to a few people and most people didn't know what to do or like you're clearly in love with your friend I think you probably just need to tell her

and figure out that it's not mutual so you can let go of these feelings. And part of me thought about, like, should I tell my partner first? And then I thought, well, if I tell my partner first, then it's like jeopardizes that friendship as well and also jeopardizes like the friend group and is going to make,

that seemed like a much harder approach, whereas if I could tell my friend and kind of let go of the feelings without having, for everyone to find out that it might just be easier that way and less destructive and less hurtful to my partner or ex-partner. now.

Okay. And none of that actually played out the way you imagined it. No, no. It did not. Okay. We have to take a brief break. So stay with us.

And let's see where this goes. Support for where should we begin comes from Quo. With so many distractions in our lives, it can be hard to keep track of everyone you need to reach, especially if you're running a business. Quo, spelled QUO, is the smarter way to run your business communications. Quo helps you and your team stay on top of every customer conversation. You can share one business number and reply faster,

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And you? I mean, at this point, I'm just kind of ready to move on and start this next chapter of my life and figure out where my life is going to be like. But I also feel like I haven't fully felt it yet because I'm still living with her. Like once I'm fully separated, it's going to be. Yeah. And which is the parent you were estranged from? My dad. Oh, you still are?

Still are estranged, correct. So you're not speaking to your close friend. You broke up with your girlfriend. You're moving out of a house. You're completely renovated. You're moving back with mom for a while. But you're leaving town where your whole circle of friends actually are. And what is it that you need or ask at this moment?

Because that's a lot of change and loss at once. Yeah. I guess my main thing is just, you know, how do I just let go of these feelings of sort of betrayal and hurt I have towards my friend that I confess my feelings for? Because I just want us to be in a good place where I don't feel so hurt and I can just kind of be around her and not be resentful and to have a good enough relationship where I'm still, you know,

because her mom and her brother are like both important to me and he's one of my best friends and I want to be amicable between all of us. And I still care about her and her partner. What would it take? That's a good question. What is the betrayal? The betrayal is because she said I wouldn't tell, but then of course she told.

Is the betrayal the fact that you thought, how can it be that I felt something so strongly and that there was nothing coming back from her in that vein? Is it hurt because I feel exposed regardless of what she did? And I feel like I brought my heart to someone, opened up my heart to someone. Kind of all the above. That's right. I mean, definitely, I definitely feel exposed.

I feel really exposed. I definitely question my sanity. I felt like maybe there was something there. And then, of course, the breaking of the word is a big one because I really trusted her. It's definitely a can of worms. She may have asked a boyfriend not to come and tell you. I think she expected him to not say anything.

Everyone here felt the need for the other person to know, but hoped that the other person would not carry the message to the next person. Right, yes. So there's different levels of, if you want to call it betrayal, there's different levels of betrayal, or there's different needs for people to process information that is destabilizing to relationships that are seeking to be anchored. and it's like a bomb was thrown in the middle of the village kind of thing.

Everybody thought they knew their place, everybody thought who's with who, everybody thought what is the hierarchy of loyalty, and suddenly all of that is thrown off its balance. And you're saying, if I lose her, I lose her mom, I lose her brother, I lose maybe the circle of friends that surround her. I don't want to do that. How do I get over? And you put the betrayal at the top,

and I would like to invite you to put the exposure at the top. Yeah, I think the feeling of embarrassment of like feeling exposed is definitely part of it. Like not part of it is one of the bigger pieces. Right. But the embarrassment is to reveal the secrets of your heart to her, or the embarrassment is that everybody knows that you were rejected? You know, the embarrassment can be about the public knowledge, the news traveling to the public square. I think it's more so that. Because I could, if she didn't feel the same way, I was okay with that. because part of me was like ready for that,

but I don't think I was ready for everyone to have the situation unfold. If you wrote her a letter today, having sat with so much of this and had so many sleepless nights, what do you think you would want to say? I think I would want to say that I just wish I was more honest with myself about my feelings. She shouldn't blame her herself for the situation. intuitively part of me still wonders if there was ever any feelings between us. So, dear X, I've been sitting with this for weeks trying to sort things out. Yeah, I guess the letter would have a lot more questions than answers.

I would still just have a lot of questions. Keep going. You may never send it, don't worry. But let's write it. Of course. I've written a few letters that I've known. sent to her already. I care about you implicitly.

Yeah, I guess I just always wanted you to be happy, whether that was with me or somebody else. Even in your partnerships with, I always wanted them to be successful. And I just want you to know I'll always be there for you. I don't know how I could trust her again and be her friend like we were ever again. Unless I got some sort of reconciliation or acknowledgement

or being met at the same level emotionally because you're just intellectualizing and rationalizing your actions. I don't feel you are seeing where I'm at in the situation. And what I want you to see is I came to you with my deepest heartfelt feelings for you and by sharing it, you cheapened it. I know intellectually that that's not the case. I understand, of course, that you would want to tell your partner,

but at the same time, because I can have more than one feelings at the same time. I also feel that it's a lot of the same time. It's as if my love for you is now just commodity that can be passed around in gossip. And maybe even if you had told me, it's hard for me to keep this. I will tell it to my partner, I don't foresee any major issue about that. But just so you know, this is not something I can keep for myself. Maybe I would have tried as best I can to convince you not to, but I would have appreciated you telling me.

Who knows? I may still be equally hurt and equally betrayed because I told you not to do it and you went ahead anyway. Yeah. I definitely feel like people think that I was just trying to, like, shoot my shot or try to, you know, be with her. and I feel like the main motivation was just trying to release these feelings and have an understanding that it's not mutual so I can let go of them. And so I just feel people are misinterpreting my intentions, which is difficult because it makes me seem like somebody else that I...

Okay. We're getting somewhere. So part of what is so embarrassing for me is that I'm being portrayed or I think. there is a perception of me as a snitch, a snatch. The person who snatches people, I don't know if it's English, but a person who comes to take someone away from another relationship. I thought that if I put my hand on the fire,

I will not want to come close to the fire again, because I was obsessed. And maybe there's a combination of more than one thing. But what I'm troubled to, by is that I'm now perceived as someone, yeah, what did you say, who wanted to just shoot their shot? And maybe if you had told me that you too had been harboring these deep feelings of love for me, it would have been that. But it's not what I was aware of.

But of course, we act in part consciously and in another part quite unconsciously. So my question to you, before we go on to the next paragraph in the letter, is what happens to you when feelings become intense? Because that may have happened other times in your life too. And you don't know where to put them. You don't know how to sort them inside of you. Don't know where to store them. And so you go and you do something big, hoping that it will stop the noise. Yeah, sometimes I can repress my feelings, whether that's like trauma or feelings of intimacy.

Generally, I would repress feelings to sort of appease somebody else or to not upset somebody else. So in this case, like, I was repressing feelings to appease my friend who still had feelings for her or because I was in a relationship with somebody or, yeah, Generally, I think, and then when I repress those feelings, it can either lead to self-destructive habits or... Such as? I mean, seeking validation through women, through sex, through alcohol or marijuana, or just ecstatic experiences, like validation just through exterior means. or I could sometimes channel it into writing or exercise, which is what I've been doing lately. I have not been doing the self-destructive route this time.

The reason I ask you this is because the story is so compelling that it feels to you that it has to do with the uniqueness of the story. And what I'm sensing and wondering about is that you feel things sometimes very intensely and that you inflate. It's as if your feelings take up so much space inside of you and you don't know how to contain them. Yeah, that was pretty accurate.

The feelings I was having for her were definitely something I hadn't felt in a long time. But you have felt other feelings intensely as well. It's like I'm inviting us to think for a moment about different situations so that you can understand that the form, the pattern, is as important as the uniqueness of this situation. It's not even like I decided to go and tell her.

I just had to. I couldn't contain it anymore. I had to find out something. I had to make it stop. So I went straight to her because if she wasn't going to reciprocate, then it was going to be deflated. Right, right.

Like, it's this real paradoxical intervention. In order for it to stop, I went to tell the woman that I love her because I had a sense that maybe she doesn't love me back and therefore it was going to cut it. A different kind of shot. Yeah, a different kind of shot. A shot to the heart, I guess.

An arrow. You know, it's a... A, it's a form of self-harm. It's not just a revelation of your heart. It's also a form of self-harm. Maybe different from weed or drinking or sex. But it's like what your entire ecosystem just imploded? Yeah.

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Yeah, I mean, if I think of other situations where I felt very intense feelings, it would usually be like anxiety in regards to like the situation I'm thinking about is like when I was working with my dad and working with my dad. and working with him was just super toxic. And eventually I just couldn't take it anymore. And maybe I get this from him because he just gets really intense and just kind of blows up. And it just kind of leaves shrapnel everywhere. And he's like, has to pick up the pieces after.

Can I ask you to tell me a little bit more about you and him? It is also where I went, by the way. him and my mom divorced when I was four he was always just very focused on his business he was not very attentive as a dad his way of showing his love was kind of just by supporting us financially but even then he was like had gone bankrupt and was very struggling financially and like would and I would be the one to refuse the child support checks. Be like, you can't even afford to eat. Like, you know, we don't need it. We're fine. And, you know, coming between him and my mom is like, she'd be upset.

She's like, why didn't you take the check? And I was definitely manipulated by him a lot as a kid. I'd like come to learn that, like, he was very much a narcissist and an unhealthy person that I just don't want to be around. He doesn't. We try to do family therapy. We did, like, one session together. and it was very interesting during the session, like watching the therapist do all the work I used to do

of just trying to get him to focus in on apologizing for this thing. And he would always go on tangent and be talking his way around it. And it was like, oh, wow, this is all the emotional work I used to do when I had to try to interact with them. And after that one session, he's like, I don't want to do it. You can't force me to do it. And so we just weren't talking. And then eventually, like, I saw that.

he was selling his house and I started thinking about it and I was like okay I should reach out and I reached out and he's like we don't need to do family therapy and I'm like look I need this for me like I won't be able I don't want to engage with you unless we do this first and so we had booked it and then of course he had forgot I even reminded him the day before and then he blamed his assistant and he couldn't make it so we rescheduled and the second time I forgot to confirm with the therapist. So that was my fault. And then the third time,

the therapist totally forgot and didn't make it. So I'm like, I feel like this is the universe trying to tell me something. I don't think. A comedy of errors. A comedy of errors, yes. And my dad even said, he's like,

okay, I'll leave it to you to like rebook it and do all that work. When he said that, it just kind of irked me. And I'm like, well, just leave it to me. Like, is this, you don't care about this relationship? You're not even going to try So I just was like after three times, I'm like, if he's not even going to try, I'm just like, forget it.

I'm not even going to continue because, yeah, he doesn't ever call or ever make an effort to connect. But what you were starting to describe as well, this is very sad, huh? Just to, I'm shaking my head, but I want to say too. It's really, because you kind of have another very important relationship where you're trying to say to someone. I care deeply about you and it doesn't feel to you that it's coming back. And you probably have promised yourself a thousand times I will never be like this guy. But sometimes things, your own emotional life becomes so intense and it feels unmanageable and dysregulated that you burst.

you don't burst aggressively or things like that but you burst as in it leaks out of you without thinking how it will affect you or the people around you and it just the need for it to come out is bigger than anything else and you've watched this many times

it's not a behavior you don't know you've been on the receiving end of that and the reason I bring it up is because there's nothing I dare identical here, except the form. But it will help you understand her a little bit better. And it will help you hopefully see the whole picture and not just, if she hadn't done this, none of this would be happening.

Yeah, I think I can get over the fact that she told her partner and that it all came out. It's just, I guess I just, like, will feel very ashamed that, like, I don't know, just seeing them, and like being in their presence is going to be like, oh man, I'm such an idiot or this is going to, I'm going to just feel very exposed and like. Yeah. You probably, you will be a little bit. You will be because you poured your heart out, but you didn't do anything. I mean, it's not like you exposed the fact that you realized that she was more than a friend

to you or so you think. And now you know your place. it's one thing to say I don't know if I can be in your presence because I want something very different and every time I'm next to you my heart aches that's not the same as

I'm next to you and to use the word that you used for your dad it's less about how you're not reciprocated my feelings and more about a narcissistic injury I feel like the fool love is foolish

sometimes it's impetuous it's insubordinate it doesn't always follow the laws of good citizenship no it does not nothing in that to be embarrassed about

it's just I was confused things were not sitting clear but this thing it will pass it will become metabolized and it will become absorbed but the embarrassment that too

you can that is a relationship that you can negotiate for yourself there's nobody embarrassing you right yeah it's really just my perception

of what people are thinking and when you ask them they're telling you it's okay I mean nobody's spending nearly as much time thinking about this as you No, definitely not.

My life just hasn't been very settled right now, so once it starts settling and actually be able to sit with it more and metabolize it, as you say. Are you angry at yourself? Do you feel like you created this? I mean, am I angry at myself? I think I was at some points, but I think it kind of needed to happen.

Okay. What does that mean? you needed to implode the whole thing? No, I think I needed to be honest about what I was feeling for her. Because, I mean, if I had those feelings for her for so long, I was not really being honest to my partner, my ex, or to her as a friend, or to her, like, yeah, to, yeah, I was just hiding from those feelings.

But, you know, I will to ask you something. for you to think about. This is six years. These feelings didn't occur yesterday. No. Explain to me what you do for six years vis-à-vis this person. It's not that they suddenly became so intense

and so uncontainable and so unmanageable. There's something in the sequencing that is curious to me. I guess the feelings for her would ep and flow sometimes when my relationship with my partner was good or I wasn't seeing my friend as much they weren't as strong but then I guess this past summer when she was having relationship issues and I was having relationship issues and we were hanging out more and it was we were just having a like yeah it just felt really good to be around her and one time I was driving her back to her

place, I did, like, grab her leg and tell her, like, you know, I really love you. And she kind of, you know, was just like looking away, like, with her hand near her mouth. And she's like, yeah, I know, I love you too. She seemed a bit uncomfortable, but she's like, you know, like, you seem to be feeling really good. And I'm like, yeah, I just feel really great hanging out with you guys as you guys are a great group of friends. So I don't know. I don't know why I just got so intense this summer.

maybe it was just seeing her more and the letters that you have written you've written them in the recent weeks or before the recent weeks yeah it was just processing my pain and betrayal and different feelings I was feeling but you haven't sent any

no so you have a few more to write you write by hand or you type type. Should I write by hand? Is that better to write by hand? Yeah. Yeah, there's something about feelings coming through our hands.

And then throw away, if you want, you can make a picture before, but throw them away. Have a ritual around those letters that allow you to express, in the full sense of the word express, push out. articulate and push out and then you'll have maybe at some point the letter that you actually want to send how do you think I would just like know it's the letter I want to send because it won't just be one in which

you expel and expunge and just spit out it won't have the same impulsivity to it it will be quieter it will be calmer. It will be more reciprocal.

It won't just be what I feel, what I feel, what I feel. It will also be what you mean to me, what this relationship means to me, what your family means to me, and what I hope to bring to you. That sometimes when people have deep, intimate conversations that are deeply revelatory, it elicits feelings of love.

and sometimes we start to think you wouldn't tell me this if you didn't feel this for me even though she's never given you any sign that it was reciprocated but that you know you knew that in advance in fact you went not because you hoped

she would say me too you went because you hoped she would say something that would make this stop I mean there was a small hope of course of course of course you have a small but that's not That wasn't the thing that made it impulsive and a root that you can't come back from.

So that's how you know. You know it's the letter to send when it becomes a letter that involves two people and not just one person reacting to another. When it involves the ability to see the predicament she was in as much as your predicament. when it takes into account time, six years what we've experienced together who we are to each other

when it takes into account the fact that we can overcome this this may have thrown a range into our friendship but I hope that we can both understand that and of course that will change when you fall in love with another person

and you have someone that gets your heart that will be easier than now. Is this helpful? It has been helpful. Yeah, I think we're thinking about trying to imagine writing that letter that you're speaking of, of like, seeing it both ways and having that ritual around that, I think that will be very helpful for me. And yeah, I mean, yeah, realizing that it was kind of but self-harming to go and express these feelings

sort of like I couldn't contain them. I don't think you did this consciously and intentionally, but it was. So there's no good way to end this except in the middle of a sentence. True. Well, I've got a lot from this. Thank you so much, Esther.

Thank you. Bye-bye. Bye. This was an Esther calling. A one-time intervention phone call, recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther, could be answered in a 40 or 50-minute phone call.

Send her a voice message, and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producer at esteraparell.com. Where should we begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise? We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network, in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Estre Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julianne. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider.

And the executive producers of where should we begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.