Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - I Trust You to Always Tell Me When I'm Wrong

Episode Date: February 19, 2024

Too often we can focus on troubles in our relationships and not what happens when the relationship goes right. This week, Esther explores the inner workings of a pivotal pair with podcast royalty Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway. The hosts of Pivot join Esther to delve into what makes them great to listen to and how being open to surprise and difference invites them each to be better people. For the first time on the U.S. stage, Esther invites you to an evening unlike any other. Join her as she shines a light on the cultural shifts transforming relationships and helps us rethink how we connect, how we desire – and even how we love. To find a city near you, go to https://www.estherperel.com/tour2024 Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I've been working and speaking with couples for decades, but over the last years, I've expanded the concept of a pair so that it involves friends, it involves co-founders, podcast hosts, creative pairs, and Kara Swisher and Scott Galloway are one of these creative pairs. People listen to them on their podcast. And what they hear is two people, each embodied in their own points of views, who disagree out loud in front of an audience, into the microphone, and tease each other and challenge each other and confront each other. And I thought, gosh, this is the kind of modeling that is so necessary at this moment. The focus is often on troubles in the relationship, problems. We don't often actually get to see what does the good couple, the good partnership,

the creative pair that holds the polarity actually sound like or look like. And this was my focus on this conversation as I met Cara and Scott. She never initiates sex after. Never. Ever. You'll be waiting a long time for that, Scott Galloway. That probably, I could imagine, is something that brings clarity in the relationship between the two of you, no? Yes. Definitely takes that element off the table.

Actually, I get along well with men because of that, I think. I really believe that. Because it never hovers under being sexualized. Yeah. Not that it would, but yeah. In this case, not that it would. Yeah, yeah, sure. I thought of that when I, you know,

we had this brief exchange when you interviewed me on pivot and uh and we were bantering about you know we should have a session we should have a session yeah and uh and then i thought why not actually because um you have a public persona as a pair on the podcast and then you are also the parents so to speak of your team yes that for that works for you and watches and learns from your dynamic and then i thought you know there's so much to learn about people who work together and get along and probably the best thing to to ask as an as a start is what would make this conversation useful, interesting, productive for each of you? Scott, go ahead. That's not fair. It is. It's fair.

You know, I really come at this. My objective here is I just want to express how grateful I am. I want to cement what I think are the positives in our relationship. But yeah, for me, the only objective I have is to use this as a vehicle to express gratitude, to use it as a moment to take a pause and appreciate the relationship and appreciate just how fortunate we are. That's kind of it for me. I don't, I didn't come to this with a list of objectives. Wishes. It doesn't have to be as practical, but the wish, but this is a wish, to be able to take a moment of pause and express my gratitude for, what would you say? This has been a wonderful relationship for me.

This is- Three years, four years? Yeah, I think it's been longer than that. And I learn a great deal from Kara, more personally actually than professionally. And it's been very rewarding for me just on a lot of levels. I get to do something twice a week

that I not only love doing, I look forward to our work relationship. I don't think of it as work. It's also financially exceptionally rewarding. I wish I'd had this 20 years ago when I needed the money. But it's given me, I have an objective around reaching influence around some things I'm passionate about. And this has provided that platform. And that platform, I am not a modest person. I think I'm remarkably fucking talented. But this platform is really mostly a function of Kara's brand equity that she brought to the table and her credibility.

So I'm grateful for that. I feel as if a little bit I'm drafting off of care's presence in the marketplace. But yeah, just a word I would use is grateful. And I wanted to articulate that gratitude. That's something I'm not very good at. I make the mistake of believing that if I feel something that other people telepathically register those feelings. Like buying a birthday present, but not giving it. That's right. Yeah, I'm waiting for my birthday present from Scott this year. That was it, by the way. You just got it.

Thank you. That's very sweet, Scott. I have slightly different objectives. I'm really interested in why our relationship resonates with so many people. I'm really fascinated. For some reason, our relationship makes people feel better. I say this a lot on the show, but on the way here, I ran into a young woman who stopped me on the street and said,

yours and Scott relationship teaches me about relationships. And I said, why? And she goes, I don't know. I just feel better listening to it. And she was very emotional about it. And then I was waiting in line and an older woman said to me, oh my God, you and Scott. And it was so fascinating. It was, I knew she was, she's an artist and she talked about listening to it when she does art. And she said, you know, she was very upset about the state of the world, especially with Israel and said, it makes me think a lot and calms me down, which was really interesting. And I, I was like, well, you know, we don't always agree. And she was very much said, that's okay. I learned how to disagree. And it was really interesting. So the relationship

is reached into people and they learn how to get along with people they may not agree with. And I think I'm really interested in why that is. Sometimes it's chemistry, of course, there's chemistry, but what are we doing specifically that's causing that? Let's put that question out. I mean, I have immediate thoughts too, but I think that one way to start, Scott, would actually maybe go to, I'm actually more thankful for the things that I have learned from her personally than professionally. Meaning something is seeping into the way that we register each other. And that then translates in the way that we

have conversations with each other, can argue, disagree, banter. And the effect of that is what people get is they see people who are arguing, but they're not hurting each other. They're not fighting. They are elevating each other for the sake of the topic that they are discussing and showing tension, healthy tension. The way I think of it is that, I mean, it sounds strange, but care and I are what Washington, D.C. is supposed to be, and that is you're supposed to send different viewpoints such that in a civil manner, under the auspices of connective tissues around fidelity and affection for our country and our commonwealth, that we have civil and robust debate and argument such that you can craft better solutions.

And we do that. And we're here to save democracy. But we, I think what we engage in is what most people think of as that, what a deliberative body is supposed to accomplish. You take people with different backgrounds, maybe different interests, and they talk about an issue and they see each other's points. They have empathy. They're civil. They demonstrate affection for each other's points, they have empathy, they're civil, they demonstrate affection for each other even though they disagree, and they come away with

a more informed kind of better union. I mean, that is supposed to be our core competence as a species is a form of cooperation is debate, evidence, and argument. I think we're the only species that can do that, and we do that. We also don't i mean a couple things none of us is so wed to our principles that we're not willing to acknowledge the other's points and i think that people like that but what you just said is very interesting you said we show one relationship between two, but we actually model what we expect from a nation, from a government. And there's something bigger that exists between us that transcends the two of us. I think that's a very important point. Well, we're talking about the things the government's supposed to be wrestling with.

We talk about political issues. We talk about big tech. We talk about economics. And I do think that people want kind of a safe space to explore friction and disagreement without people dunking on each other and being mean or feeling as if somebody has to be the clear winner. I mean, to a certain extent, we're neosporin for how coarse our discourse has become. But it's not just public. It's families and not being...

There was a very funny thing I saw. It was a Reddit thing is my parents believe in QAnon, my kids love Hamas. I don't know what I'm going to do. It was kind of a funny way to articulate it. It's that people are finding a very hard time personally to get to agree, to come to any agreement, or to disagree in a way that everybody can walk away, you know, from it without feeling terrible. And I think it's because online has infected offline rather than vice versa, right? Things you wouldn't do. I mean, this is not a big revelation, but it really, people feel dunking is okay. The way they behave online is like Scott said, it's coarse, it's crude, it's reductive. It's, did you get that person? And I engage in it too. And that's, but I don't know if we, I don't take it offline

the way a lot of our culture has started to do. It puts people in boxes they cannot escape from. I mean, there's a word that you didn't use much yet, which is trust, that you won't throw each other under the bus and that you like each other as people. And so that maintains the connective tissue. I think that one of the sentences people are experiencing the most in the attacks online at this moment is shame on you. Yes, very much so. Shames on you. Tries me crazy.

For whichever thing you think or not think or do or don't do, it's shame on you. Do better. Say that? Do better. That's the one I hate. Do better. Be a leader.

That's what I get a lot. Yeah. So I think that what people experience when they hear you is, first of all, they see two people who like each other. In a way, that's something that is often described of what used to exist in Congress as well. People disagreed, but they liked each other. They knew this is a good person, but it didn't destroy it. Your beliefs were not the only way by which people judged you. They also looked at how you relate to people at what you do.

Not that you are a religious person and a secular person, but that you are a good person. And wherever you get your values in humanism or in religion. And so when people listen to you, your friction and the strength with which you each hold your positions and at the same time engage in the dialogue with the other, it's the opposite of the conflict avoidance that many people engage in at this moment. If I don't fully agree with you, I don't talk to you. Yeah. Or you don't bring it up, you know, and you secretly see, I think a lot of people secretly see, or they feel like they can get in trouble for saying things. And that's, you know, if you talk about trust is I know sometimes we get into trouble for things we say,

but I don't think it feels unsafe with each other. Right. You know, to express, even when it's testy, you know, we've had some testy exchanges. Trans was one. There's not that many that I can recall, but you know, we've had some testy ones and somehow we've survived it without disrespect. And I think that's, I don't know where people lost that ability. Maybe they were holding it all in and now have been able to vomit up whatever comes out of their mouth or they sort of lost just, it's not really empathy is not really the word. It's, I don't know. It's just how you were raised. I don't know how else to put it. Like, although I wasn't raised that way. So I wasn't raised that way. What is your, well, actually I'm very curious because I don't know myself. What is your

background for each of you? I think you know this, Esther, but my dad died when I'm very curious because I don't know myself. What is your background for each of you? I think you know this, Esther, but my dad died when I was very little. One side of my family is Catholic, Italian. The other side is sort of early American Baptist and much more traditional Southern. And my dad died, who was from that side of the family. And my mom remarried to a terrible person and wasn't, I would say, not the best parent. Was not there for me and my brothers, but tried her best, I guess, with the limited emotional range she had. And after that, my dad dying, I think we kind of raised ourselves in a lot of ways.

Although I had the support of a great grandmother who was wonderful. That's what I was going to ask. Yeah, my grandmother was really a savior on my mom's side. But I loved my grandmother on my dad's side, but we didn't see her as much. And if you think about the strengths and the resources that you bring to your interpersonal relations, what are some of the things you would say you honed in at home? And by the way, the resources don't always come from great stuff. No, it usually doesn't, does it? I can handle it and nothing much bothers me.

You know, I think there's a, you know, highly functional is often a byproduct of early death of a parent. I think I'm highly functional. And so I don't get too spun around or on it. It's not that I don't lose my temper, but it's hard to get me bothered that much. And I always just move on to the next thing, move on, move on, move on, just like let's keep going. And I have an expression I have on one of my walls here the chance favors those in motion so it's always a moving forward kind of thing not in circles something bothers you you tell him oh yeah you wait oh no i tell him

text me at two in the morning she'll wake me up you tell him he needs to know immediately and if you need help, you turn to him? Yes, actually. I've asked him for a lot of stuff. I don't need a lot of help, honestly. I don't. I don't think you asked me for a lot. You just said soon, which is exactly why I asked you a question about help. Because you've just told me in a roundabout way.

I do. When I have legal things or investment things, I ask him. Business stuff, yeah. I don't know if I ask him parenting tips, but I would, I suppose. But actually, no, he helped my son a great deal. He gets shy about it, but I asked him to talk to my son about college. And he was a really important, between him and my brother, the most important people in helping my son figure out where he wanted to go to school. I would even say Scott was more influential.

My son talks about him quite a bit, my 18-year-old. And so both my sons really like talking to Scott. So I would avail myself to, not for me, myself, but for my kids for sure. He's been a real asset to their lives. Beautiful, beautiful. How would you describe Scott? Describe what, Esther? Just basic demographic background.

Oh. Origin story. Yeah, I was raised by a single mother who lived and died a secretary a lot of my life. Hands down, like the singular most important influence in my life. Blessed to be born in California in the 60s as a straight white male. Was she also a can handle it all? My mom? Yeah. Oh yeah. My mom was very productive, worked hard. I like to work. And I think I picked up on that early from her. She was worked very hard to make sure we were economically viable. I would say we were upper, lower, middle class. My household income was never more,

I think we peaked at $40,000. But born in California at exactly the right time, with exactly the right skin tone, sexual orientation. I mean, just had this, like the full force, gale force winds of the greatest economy, the greatest time and the greatest state. I mean, I used to, my narrative used to be a son of a single mother. Aren't I awesome that I overcame these things? And then as I got older and matured, I realized that, yeah, I wasn't in the 99.9th percentile. I was in the 99th because I got to go to UCLA for free. I got into UCLA. I mean, just when I didn't deserve to. So my background from the curb, it looks like it was not difficult, but a male role model, I didn't have that. But absent that, I consider my background remarkably fortunate and blessed. And I got very lucky. I had a really good reference group. My friends as a young man were always very impressive, ambitious, hardworking, good people.

And that was really kind of my family, if you will. I was an only child, so my friends were really my family. That seems into your conversations about men. We do. It does. You've never said this to me, but I've inferred it from the way that you talk about young men and the need for young men for the solid friendships, the circle in which they evolve, etc. So it makes sense. Yeah, that's my practice.

It's not my prayer, but every night before I go to sleep, I call two friends and I rotate them, but I don't text them, but I call and I have a live conversation with two friends every night. And I've done that six of seven nights for the last 30 years. Wow. And I rotate, I go down. Yeah, so I was very fortunate, very blessed around that, But, you know, just pretty, I always describe my- Could you and your mom argue?

Oh, yeah. Could you disagree? Could you spar? Could you- Oh, sure. I mean, I think I went through what I think a lot of young men go through, that separating from the pack, I kind of turned into an asshole when I was a teenager. I was never mean to my mom, but I wasn't as kind as I could have been.

But I moved back in with my mother. I actually lived with my mom for a year when she was dying. That made us very close. It was me and her against the world. That was very formative for me. But yeah, we were... I mean, other than that 17-year-old phase, we were not very nice, such that it makes it easier to leave home. I say now, nothing good happens because my... Nothing really good feels cemented because anytime something good happened to me, I would call my mom, literally anything. Oh, I met a nice woman at a coffee shop and I got her number. Oh, I just got my first bonus from

Morgan Stanley, like anything good. And now not there, right? So it doesn't feel like good stuff really happens. It's weird. It's like, it doesn't really happen because she's not there to hear it.'t feel like good stuff really happens it's weird it's like it doesn't really happen because she's not there to hear it you can call me scott there you go occasionally no you do um it's so funny i was just thinking you grew up a single mom i grew up very wealthy i would say um which we my brothers and i have tried to escape because we're very hard workers we hated that you know you know, the step up. You are a hard worker. But all my brothers are like that. We did not like the trappings of wealth at all and did not enjoy it.

We, you know, we didn't relish in it or become lazy because of it, which was interesting because, you know, it's easy not to think about money when you have money, but we really don't. We really work hard. We really like work and earning things on our own. So that was interesting. But you're bringing it in a very necessary way in the economic realm. I'm also thinking simply when you describe dad wasn't there, there was no dad, there was grandma,

mom was somewhat present. I learned to fend for myself. I learned to just know I've got my own legs to stand on. I have to be self-reliant. Yeah, absolutely. But you probably called grandma when great things happened to you too. Yes. And so you have that combination between connection and self-reliance. Yeah, we would talk every night, I would say, almost every night in my life, her life, for sure. Yeah, I know her phone.

One of the few phone numbers I know was hers by heart, right? You know, you don't, of course, nobody remembers phone numbers anymore, but that's one I knew by heart, for sure. And then I listened to Scott describe, you know, calling mom, but also, you know, it's easier to be, what did you call it, a 17-year-old asshole when you actually have someone holding the fort yeah yeah and and you can go you know and this relationship is solid and steady so you can be bratty for a few years you know and i'm thinking that i mean i'm wondering to what extent does some of that also exist in your relationship these formative experiences that you had. Like being with a person, being with a woman with strong opinions,

who holds things on her own, who works very hard, it's familiar to you. I'm your mother, Scott. Scott, I am your mother. I knew you would say this. But it's not, I'm your mother, but it's more that you have learned to not be threatened. You've learned to enjoy, actually, even to welcome behaviors that in a different context are experienced. You know, I can imagine some people listening to the two of you and saying, what an amazing pair. They go at it and they like it, et cetera. And I can imagine other people listening to you or even working for you, for that matter, even on your team, who get tense when they see that tension and that animosity or

that sparring come up because that for them was not at all something that said, you're safe here, you can fight, but rather you're not safe here, don't fight. Yeah. I mean, I've never been in therapy, but it's one thing that's very obvious about the relationships most important to me. My key relationships are all very, my closest friends are basically some version of Homer Simpson and Marge. I'm the unwashed, idiot, frat bro, and they're this caring, decent person. All of my closest friends are, like, gentle, nice, loving people. That's who I've always been drawn drawn to i have no idea if i'm trying to recreate what makes them wrong to you and they're drawn to me because i get i think i provide a certain level of comfort and i don't know what it is but every one of my close friendships

is basically a very gentle loving person and i'm the irreverent, aggressive, obnoxious one. Yeah, but I don't think you're as bad as you think you are. You know what I mean? I think there's- You played the part? Yeah, it is. It's a little cosplaying that's your idea of yourself. Often when people do come up to me, if they don't like something you said, I constantly say, Scott is an incredibly kind person. I think you have to, you know, and because he struggles with stuff, that should be a problem for you. Why? Because he's expressing struggling. And so

once they start to think that way, they go, oh, that's, I hadn't thought of it that way. No, I think you're not. You're a very generous and kind person with your time and your space. And I think you, you like being the bad boy, but you're not really bad. I know a lot of bad, bad people and you're not one of them. One thing stands out for me in their interaction is that they have each other's back. They can argue, they banter, but they prop each other up. Cara says, I don't think you're as bad as you think you are. They hold a mirror to each other to see themselves in a more holistic way. So sometimes it's blunt, it's sometimes very honest. It's always caring and it invites the other person to actually see themselves with greater honesty.

We have to take a brief break. Stay with us. Sometimes people present themselves as tough. Yeah. But for the purpose of covering, which often is a very tender, gentle. I think you're talking about me. I am actually tough, but I also can be tender.

It's okay to be tough. One time I was telling Scott, I was talking to someone who was in therapy every day of the week. I guess when you do that, when you're in deep psychoanalysis, and I said, that's a lot of dice, talking to someone who was in therapy every day of the week. I guess when you do that, when you're in deep psychoanalysis, and I said, that's a lot of dice, and I don't think I have that many things to talk about about myself. And they said, you're blocking.

That's right. Isn't that the word? They said, you're blocking. I said, well, it's working. Repressing, repressing. Yeah, I said, it's working. I'm very happy, and you seem miserable, so I don't know what to tell you. And they're like, it's fake happy. I'm like, I don't think so.

I think I actually am happy, but okay, sure. I have, I mean, we've met maybe three or four times that we have spoken together. I don't think of you as tough, but I do sometimes think you can be intimidating. Which Scott, who presents as tough, doesn't intimidate me at all. Paper tiger. You, however, do intimidate me sometimes really why and like because i'm not fully sure how you register me so i then i'm starting to not really not really know it's like and and uh with him it's it's easier to see that under this carapace there is something you know he has that

that smile and and i okay got it got it yeah um so that that but i don't know if he has that, that smile and I, okay, got it. Got it. Yeah. So that, that, but I don't know if it has, I'm not as much, you can be, I'm not as much of an open wound. That's absolutely true. I'm just not, it just isn't. Maybe I have a scar, but I certainly am not, you know, again, it's the moving on thing. It's like, can't be, I can always figure out a way to get out of it. And so that's, you know, I think about that a lot because how do people survive difficult crises, right? When, depending on what the crisis happens to be. Years ago, I did an outward bound, you know, there was a couple of them actually, and you go in the wilderness and it's, I was very calm in crisis, like extraordinary. I was surprised how calm I was. I didn't panic. I got calmer and calmer as the situation got worse and

worse. Right. Because sometimes in the face of threat, you can have fight, flight, freeze, or fix. Yeah. I think I'm the last one. The fix is the one that's often not added. So you become instrumental. You roll up your sleeve and you get to work. Right. And that's not necessarily a good thing because, you know, a lot of people, my wife thinks about things a lot, you know, and I'm always like, let's just move on. Like, just make a decision and go. Like, it's not going to get any better by mulling it. And I don't mull a lot.

And perhaps I should, but I just don't have time for it. No, but how are you with those who do? I'm a little impatient, I would say. I think you end up in the same place. So it just seems like it's painful when people do that. The worry makes me think it'll take days off their lives. I don't know. You know what I mean? I don't have that kind of time. I always feel like I don't have that kind of time. So I love the way that people that don't mull and don't worry, you know, it's a very nicely packaged argument

for why it's not a good thing to do. No, I get it. I get it. I get it. You know, I'm not going to be the one to convince you that you. Oh, well, my wife, when I met her, she says, what are you, neurotic? But I said, I can't think of anything.

I like to clean, I guess. I don't know. But it calms me down. Yes. I don't find that But it calms me down. Yes. I don't find that neurotic. It's useful. Because it's organized, specific tasks with a beginning, a middle, and an end. Yeah.

And you don't have to think about anything else. Right. That's exactly right. Cleaning has a very powerful function in that sense. Are you similar in the not mulling, not worrying, not ruminating? Scott, I think, mulls a lot. Don't you, Scott? Yeah, I mean, Esther, I struggle with depression and anger.

So I have a tendency to live way too much in the past. Hands down, 110% of my anger and mulling is on me, is focused on me. I do think I do try to be very generous. I have this thing, don't keep score, decide what kind of husband, father, son you want to be and be that person and don't contribute that to the relationship registering their contribution and keep score. I just don't do that anymore. But I am very hard on myself and constantly disappointed in myself, constantly feel like I've come up short

on everything I should have done, how I perform on anything. I'm just constantly disappointed in myself and can't get over it and can never forgive myself. And it really turns on me. I get angry at myself and it's like my blood turns to acid and it just registers this emotional toll and I go into these very dark downward spirals. And I talk about that on the show. I think a lot about, you know, I've made a living basically renting my brain to old white guys to say, what's the opportunity with your business? That's how I've made my living for 40 years. And the white spaces we fill are the following from just a pure economic or marketing standpoint. And I think why people are drawn to the show in addition to the chemistry.

CARA occupies a white space. There aren't that many women, full stop, who come from a background in journalism, who are physically smaller, who are from a vulnerable community, the LGBTQ community, that are in people's faces and giving very forceful, thoughtful opinions, interrupting people, not taking shit. That's just a white space there aren't that many people in from that background. And women and men, but mostly women, but a lot of men too, really respond well to that. They're like, that's what I wanted to do. Everybody talks about it, but not that many people of that demographic behave that way. So that's the white space that Kara fills. And so people are really drawn to that power, that strength, that courage.

I'm a straight white male that shows his emotions. That's the white space. And it's an enormous white space. I fucking cry all the time on our show. You do. You cry. And that is hands down when I get the most. And it's totally organic. It is not staged at all.

I'm embarrassed when I do it. I don't plan on it. It's very authentic. And I cannot tell you how many men I hear from. Because you reveal a side of masculinity that is often so hidden and unacknowledged and yet quite present and real. And all men, there's so many men who literally look at it like a skill that they would kill to have. I hear from these guys, like my whole life I've wanted to express that kind of emotion and I just can't. And at the same time, you can just feel a lot of women and I think a lot of people who feel like they've taken shit and listened to men talk over them, mansplain them, not gotten back in a man's, you know, people's faces, feel that, you know, Kara is sort of their warrior queen, right? So I think we both occupy spaces that gives people, makes people feel seen and heard and emboldens them. Yeah, they're aspirational for them. Yeah, I think definitely Scott's vulnerability is incredibly attractive.

I don't think it's, again, it's not artifice in any way. And sometimes I often tell him, just give yourself a break. Like, stop being so hard on yourself. Why don't you give yourself a break is something I say a lot to him. But I think people do respond because men really, I think what he's talking about is vulnerability of men that is often unexpressed. Men struggle with it because they have a certain, you know, persona they need to maintain. And crying, they can't imagine crying in front of publicly, right?

No, no. The socialization of men is more geared towards stoicism. And the other side is a woman that maybe doesn't cry is also, well, she's not, you know, Bill Ackman, or Elon Musk said she has heart teasing with hate and she laughs at him. Like she's not like crumpled down in a heap crying, oh no, a powerful man has said something tough to me. And I think that's something that people appreciate

because they're both opposite what you might expect from people well if someone described our backgrounds and our demographics and our and then said this show regularly has one person turning into a chocolate mess and the other person comforts them they wouldn't guess who it is they wouldn't be like oh it's the six two guy it they wouldn't guess who it is. They wouldn't be like, oh, it's the 6'2 guy. They wouldn't be like, oh, yeah, that's the guy that's a chocolate mess all the time. Like there's just so many stereotypes and expectations around people based on how they look or their gender or their backgrounds or whatever it is. Tell me something. When you describe, I grapple more with depression and anger and self-doubt.

Is the presence of Kara palliative for you? Oh, yeah. I very much appreciate, yeah. And that's how I get out of my funks is I spend time with other people. For me, it's really my boys. I've struggled for some reason the past week. I don't know I don't know what it is I can feel it and I have this whole method I um I start working out once or

twice a day I like she cleans you work out yeah I start working out but more than anything I try to be around family and I try to be very affectionate with my boy like I go to sleep with my son when he goes to sleep. I just lie next to him. I find that very, very restorative for me. But yeah, I've learned to manage it without pharmaceuticals. True connection. Yeah. The way I describe it is mammalia.

I just turn to my mammal self. Yeah, to oxytocin. Yeah. But because there is just no excuse. And again, it gets me angry at myself. I have blessings the size of Mars. I have a mood the size of an anthill. And it makes no sense.

You're not stack ranking your tragedy. Like you can't stack rank, like, oh, that person should be less. You know, you don't get to be as unhappy because you have all these things. I don't think they ever equal up. I don't think if you have blessings, I mean, I don't think they ever equal up. I think one of the things that, um, Scott perhaps hasn't experienced as much as I have is life is unfair. Like I've had a lot of life is unfair. I always call myself a, an optimistic pessimist. I expect the worst. And I'm surprised by when it turns out right. I would say he is a pessimistic, he really thinks the world is a good place. You know what I mean?

In his heart of hearts, he thinks that it's better than it is. And I'm never surprised by it. But he thinks that the world is a better place than the place inside of him. Yes, yes, 100%. And he often, and he describes himself as prone to self-doubt. Right. And so a collaboration, a good collaboration, becomes compensatory for the self-doubt. Yeah. It's like when a show with you takes care of a lot of the rumination. I mean, he may still ask himself, did I talk too much?

Did I talk okay? Did I say the right thing today? But fundamentally, your presence and the fact that that's not something you grapple with gives him more confidence that it was okay rather than did I do... Well, I think more to the point is that someone he respects

thinks something he said was wise or surprising. And that's one of the things that attracted me to Scott is one of the things he does almost continually on the show is surprise me with insight. And I think he likes that I am, I think he likes that I think he's smart, right? Because I do, because I'm like. Yes, because you're the counter voice

to the voice of doubt inside of him. Right, but I think he thinks someone really smart thinks I'm smart. If it because you're the counter voice to the voice of doubt inside of him. Right, but I think you think someone really smart thinks I'm smart. If it didn't come from someone smart, it would have no effect. Right, that's what I mean. And I think I genuinely am always like, oh, I didn't think of that.

Like the other day he did something, I was like, oh, I thought halfway through and then he thought the rest of the way through. So it's, you need other people to get you to the next level. And I think that's works well here, for sure. What I like about what you're highlighting, Boat, is that it's become a little easy to describe you from the angle of, it's the pair that knows to fight well and disagree with each other and still like each other. I think what you just described is a whole other layer of, A, what you represent to society in terms of how you each are, but also

the kind of complementarity. You know, when you haven't said something that he says, you say, oh, he just finished the thought, but you don't berate yourself on it. Because I never would have thought of it. Like, that's the thing. It's like, it's a different brain. And I like oh I see how then you see I've ever been around someone that like sees something way ahead of you and I have such respect for that it's I'm like oh now I see it's like when you see one of those pictures where you can't see the face that's sometimes what it feels like I'm like oh there's the face of course and then you're like oh I hadn't thought about that. And I like that. I really find that helpful.

And it happens with Scott all the time, which is why it's a really, I'm often surprised. I'm often, I didn't think that way. It doesn't necessarily change my viewpoint all the time, but it changes my, it changes the way I think about something. And I think that's helpful because I get uncertain, which is good, which is, I think, a good thing. What Cara highlights here is something that is emphasized in the research of John and Julie Gottman about relationships, which is the importance of being able to receive influence from the other person in a relationship.

The willingness, the openness to be shaped, expanded, changed through another. And that receiving influence is beautifully modeled right here. There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break. So stay with us. Is what you have with him unique, you think? I think it's unusual. I don't get surprised that often.

I like being surprised by people and Scott is constantly surprising me. Take that answer. He surprises me. Do you think that your relationship is replicable? Have you met other co-founders, co-creators, co-leaders, collaborators that have inspired you. Different model, but that you say, they too, they have this. Because so many people have to work with people and they're all looking for a way to do it in a way that is not just better, but what you're describing, Scott, satisfying, nurturing, joyful, looking forward. I mean, those are beautiful terms to describe going to work. You know, you have to find your co-founder, right? I think co-founders are always better, honestly, when I see companies.

The individual founders tend to be really narcissistic in a way that's eventually problematic. It's good to have guardrails. Yeah. I've always had partners. I think it's much more rewarding to build a company with other people. I think it's fun. I think it's fun to build something together.

I think it's fun to make money together. I just find it more rewarding. I would never want to do this kind of stuff alone because it's like, who do you celebrate with? And who takes care of your self-doubt? There you go. But in terms of, like I was thinking if, when you went in for heart surgery, someone said, well, what happens to Pivot if Kara doesn't make it out of surgery? And they're like, who's the next co-host? Who's your co-host?

And I'm like, if Kara's gone, when Kara's gone, Pivot's done. And, or when I'm, you know. See, I would immediately replace you. I know. So I'm, you know. See, I would immediately replace you. I know. So I won't say that. But me, I'm like, and not only that, I don't have the energy to recreate this relationship. Yeah.

And another question I had for you, Scott, is actually for both of you, but it came up as you were talking. In what way has your professional relationship with Cara changed you to be a different or a better partner with your wife? How has this relationship informed, inspired? I don't think it's made me a better spouse. I think it's made me a better spouse. I think it's made me a better family person. I've always come from this attitude of I'm working so hard for the family. And don't you appreciate how hard I'm working and I'm working this hard for us and a lot of self-pity. And Kara works

as hard or harder than I do. And there's very few people who work as hard as I do. And Kara always finds time for her family. And I have never heard any of that self-pity. And that's very motivating for me because it's something I don't like about myself. And when I see someone who has as much pressure on her from a relationship standpoint and an economic standpoint as Cara does, Cara's got a lot of dependence. And I've never heard you complain once. I've never heard you complain about your spouse once. But you know, a part of this are the socially sanctioned scripts.

This is very cultural. You were talking earlier about how both of you kind of transcend some gender role expectations. But in this one, you fall right in the middle of it. I'm working so hard. I justify my absence. I justify my lateness. I justify my lack of availability. You should be thankful. You should realize how much I'm doing. I'm not doing this for myself. I'm doing this for the family. I mean, that's like such a canned script and very gender specific. And a lot of it's bullshit because most of what I do is for me, to be honest. Okay. Thank you for your honesty, sir. No, I want to be ridiculously fucking rich and awesome.

He likes the hotel rooms. He likes them. I mean, I'd probably be doing this without my family. It's not like I get up and drive a bus. But do you agree that there is something very gender specific about this script oh no i on so many ways the other day i grabbed some fries from my kid's plate and he looked at me and he said dad it's mine i'm like everything in this fucking house is mine did you really say that i really said that i use that as exact words jesus oh god don't say that again there you go do not say that ever I can hear it coming out of my mouth

and trying to pull it back good idea do you apologize? do you take it back at least oh yeah are you good at apologizing? yeah I do apologize to my kids and to my wife and i also try to immediately

inject humor to mock myself yeah his wife runs the whole show just fyi 100 100 whatever i not asked you that you think is an important part of yes please tell me uh i don't know i i just think, you know, it's interesting because you're right when you started this thing off. A lot of people don't, they talk about what the problem is and not what works, right? I think that's a really interesting way to frame this because when people do run into me publicly because they think they really know us,

and they kind of do, you know, fans who listen to the show kind of do know us. They're like, what's the real... So I'll give you an example of what just works. Right. You just give me... So this is just the last one you mentioned. Scott gets down on himself and he goes negative.

He berates himself. He doubts himself. He pities himself. And you basically say to him, cut it off. But you have a way of doing it. And he has a trust vis-a-vis you that instead of feeling cut off and shut down, he feels supported. And he feels that you're helping him not sink. And that you're holding his head above water.

Those moments, because relationships happen in micro moves, that's a moment that in a distressed relationship would completely turn on its head. You would say, oh, come on, knock it off. And the other person would feel you have no empathy. I have no room to express myself. What about my feeling? You shut me up, et cetera. And it would begin an escalation. Right. But I don't actually say knock it off without saying you're great. Like, look at all the six things. You know, like, let me show you why that's not the case. It doesn't matter.

You can say it in the nicest way. What allows him to hold on to this rather than to feel pushed away by it is in the details of many, many other experiences where he has learned to trust that you mean well for him. Many ways of him knowing that there is something in what you do that actually holds him from sinking further. Loads of little things that are not expressed in the moment, but they allow him to attribute meaning to what you say that feels helpful and curative rather than negative and hostile. Yeah, I don't know why that is. That analysis of micro move by macro move is what helps us understand what makes it work.

Now, typically, we all have a good idea of what makes it not work. We've seen all the, you know, you say this and off when the other person goes. It's what made this person take this in this direction rather than in the more obvious direction. Right. Yeah. I know you say, but I say you're great. Another person could just hear this as she just you know whatever you say what's the word in English lie just yeah make use empty words you know you're just placating

placating me you know yeah and that doesn't happen and it's like what allows this well because I think Scott knows that I don't lie you know what I don't like I wouldn't like I wouldn't shine him on I don't I'm not i don't ever shine people on and i think that's so he knows i wouldn't say it if i didn't mean it um oh here's a question what is scott going to make cara cry god i hope i never make you cry i hope you i hope i give you permission oh no you get emotionally i'm not talking about make you cry it's that you cry about really lovely things you cry about your missing friends or your someone who's sick or your mom or something like that you really you you access those emotions that was it just a joke because you're never going to make me cry so

yeah but you've i've heard you get i've heard you get emotional about stuff. I think you feel more licensed to talk about personal stuff because I'm so personal. My kids probably. Yeah. But I think, you know, it's just different. Kara's raised from a position of where I think Kara's, I don't want to say her claws are out, but Kara said something to me that really struck me. She said, you know, when we're talking about people who kind of run the world or these heads of tech platforms, they don't build any safeguards. They're not worried about people being victims because they've never been victims themselves.

And so they just have a difficult time understanding what it's like to feel, to be a victim. And I feel like Kara comes from a place where she just took a lot of shit. And so as a result, she puts up, it's not a front, but I think you have a lot of calluses. I won't even call it scar tissue, but I think you're tough. You're an igloo. You're tough on the outside and soft and gooey on the inside. But the vast majority of people you come in contact with are never going to see that, I don't think. I've seen it a few times, but I think most people don't ever access that. And so the question of when will I cry?

I'm teasing. Go ahead. Yeah, but I'm coming back to it because it goes hand in hand with the, I don't mull, I don't wallow, I don't self-pity, I get over things, time is short, you know, that very robust system that you have.

So there might be one day something that finally says, I deserve to be here. I, as in I, this feeling deserves to be, to take just some space inside of you for a moment. Please don't shut me down. Please don't go practical on me. Please don't start cleaning. Just let me express myself. And there will be maybe one day a part of you that just asks for that and makes it happen. He will have had not much to do with it.

But cleaning works. I'm telling you, Esther, there should be a whole therapeutic thing. I clean the whole basement on Sunday. I'm so happy. I've written in Mating in Captivity two pages on somebody who really began cleaning. At the moment, things became most chaotic. And that notion that order on the outside will be met by order on the inside. It is, though.

It does work. Now, it works as a wonderful repressive tactic, organizing structure. It works for something. But if you ask, how will I one day, you know, will I one day cry unbeknownst to me? Will tears grab me like I've seen them grab him? And for that, those tears will need to carve a little way inside of you and basically say, let us come, let us stream, give us permission.

Yeah, that's true. That's true. Probably unlikely, but still. And I think we can stop here if that's okay with you. Great. Thank you for doing this. I can't imagine how many very famous and interesting people would kill to have you do this for them.

So thanks very much. Yeah, my pleasure. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Eva Walchover, Destry Sibley, Hyweta Gatana, Sabrina Farhi, Eleanor Kagan, Kristen Muller, and Julianne Atte.

Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, Jen Marler, and Jack Saul.