Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - If He's A "High Value Man", What Am I?

Episode Date: March 11, 2024

Esther talks to a woman who, despite her best efforts, finds herself implicated in the same toxic cycle of abuse from her partner that she grew up watching between her parents. Rationally, she knows she deserves better, but just can't seem to get out from under this painful repetition of events. Esther talks her through why she thinks she finds herself back here time and time again. Esther Callings are a one-time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [e-mail]. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

so sorry to interrupt you guys but we're going to try to play the question this way and tell me if you guys both hear this so here we go the topic i would like to talk about with you is how to break the cycle of coming back to the man that hurt me and keeps hurting me again and again. This man thinks about himself that he belongs to the group of men called high value men. It's the term that I haven't really heard before I've met this guy. So basically, it's a man that has a stable job, like a high paid job. It's in his 40s, dates only women younger than 30 and have a great social status. It's not married, has no kids. So basically the man that takes care of himself pretty much from all sides, like mentally, physically, spiritually, and financially.

So yeah, it would be nice to go around this topic and I'm looking forward to it. Your own weight loss journey is personal. Everyone's diet is different. Everyone's bodies are different. And according to Noom, there is no one size fits all approach. Noom wants to help you stay focused on what's important to you with their psychology and biology based approach. This program helps you understand the science behind your eating choices and helps you build new habits for a healthier lifestyle. Stay focused on what's important to you with Noom's psychology and biology based approach. Sign up for your free trial today at Noom.com. As you hear your question again, would you ask it differently today? Would you ask it the same way?

I would probably ask the same way. I believe that I had this problem before in my relationship. It took me a while to leave a toxic relationship. I'm not saying necessarily that this one is toxic in a way that the previous one was because there was a physical and mental abuse, but there's definitely a toxicity. As defined by what, as you see it? I see it basically all mistakes. it's always my fault. I'm the one that's blamed for everything. I'm the one who puts more effort into it,

but yet still I'm the one that does the thing the wrong way. There's lots of things being said that things that I shared vulnerably and are being used against me. So you are the villain and your partner is, he's the saint. Everything that's bad is you. Everything that's good is him. Yeah.

And your question is about understanding why you keep going back to him, wanting to understand what has brought you to be in relationships that devalue you and hurt you or all of the above. Yeah, all of the above, I would say. Like, I've been thinking about it a lot, right? Like, what is it that keeps bringing me back to him and keeps letting him come back to me? Can I ask you something? Yeah, absolutely.

How long did it take before you're being the prize of this high value individual to your being the demise? A few months, a few weeks? No, it's been longer. The whole situation with this person is two years. Yes. Been like really not like a typical dating, you know, situation or relationship situation because so we live in two different parts of the world. Then we quite went our separate way. He didn't want to pursue anything. Then he came back to me. I was like, yeah, I mean, I liked you before. I like you now. I'm single. Let's explore. If there is a possibility that we can be together, we share lots of things in common. at the same time there's something that it's just I don't know from his perspective wrong about me and this dynamic of you trying to be appreciated

valued liked by someone that you have to win over. Is that familiar to you? Well, I feel like I've always, like in any relationship, even in like the home environment, I'm a middle child and I've been good at school. I've been good at basically everything that I was doing, but I was taking care of myself nobody really paid attention to me just because I had a good grades I was athletic I was doing sports I

was doing things right so I think I was just like looked over I never heard any compliment from my family members so I feel like I've been constantly trying to be appreciated by other people in like other environments, a part of relationship, not just in a relationship, right? Did your parents compliment the other siblings? Or was that the culture of the house

that you don't bring butterflies to the head? I think it was the culture of the house that you don't bring butterflies to the head? I think it was the culture of the house. Even the relationship with my parents wasn't good. So yeah, I think it was just a dynamic because I believe there wasn't really space because of the things that were going on in our family. So that's an understatement when you say their relationship wasn't good. It's not. It really wasn't good.

You know, there's lots of traumas that I carry from my family and from my childhood that I am aware of and I've been working on them. And that travel with you in your relationships with men your intimate relationships with men um I want to say no but I believe that it definitely influenced me in a way and especially when I'm looked over again when I'm not appreciated. But in the house, it was more, since you're not a problem, we don't have to pay attention. And in your relationship, you are the problem. Imagine that you're listening, like me, to someone else who brings this question. I find myself in relationships where I am devalued, where I fight to get some recognition, some appreciation. If I'm made to be the problem,

then at least I get attention, but it's negative attention. And I've somehow learned that negative is better than no attention. And I am drawn to whatever you called or whatever she calls high value individual who even assesses oneself like this. What is this product evaluation? I haven't heard it before. And he came up with that status of himself. I had a fantasy that the moment you hear such a thing, you'd be running away to begin with rather than running towards. I mean, that in itself is quite a self-description.

So we're listening together to this other young woman who basically presents this and says, here I am. And somehow, the more I am put down and the more I get emboldened to fight for the recognition even more so from the very person who is denying it to me. Why am I doing this? And what is it from home and from my experience and the society I live in that makes me so susceptible to this and to being impressed by someone who has put themselves on the top shelf with criterias that are very little relational criterias. Basically, I'm a good catch. It used to be the simple language for this new denomination. And I understand that there are lots of things you won't tell me in one conversation about what happened at home. And so I respect that. And at the same time, in your question,

what is it that I bring with me from my experience at home? How is the past collapsing with the present? So I believe that that's something that I saw and I'm familiar with. And that's why it feels comforting, even though it's not a comfort right you saw it between who and who with my parents and who who was in which role so my mom was the victim and my father was the one blaming my mom for everything he, like he abused her mentally, physically for many years. And I grew up in that environment. I saw it with my own eyes. Maybe it's something that it's so familiar, something that I know. And that's why I'm choosing to stay because it's me who's choosing to stay, right? Because I have the option to leave and I just don't know how to.

And how to do differently from your mom. Yeah, exactly. What was it like? Would you say to yourself, mom, stand up, mom, why don't you leave him? Yeah, those are all the questions that I've been asking my mom since I was maybe 12, 13 years old when I started to realize what was happening in our family. So those were the questions that I was like, mom, can we just pack our bags and leave? Like, this is not good for you.

And this is not good for us. The only answer that I got from my mom whenever I asked those questions was I have four kids I have nowhere to go nobody's gonna take in a single mother with four kids how am I going to take care of you but I'm not in that exact situation right I'm still single I don't have kids I it should be easy for me to stand up for myself. Yeah. A child who sees the abuse, violence, the degradation, wants more, wants better, but somewhere is struggling to actually allow themselves to have it because it's as if they have a certain kind of guilt

about outdoing the parent, having it better than the parent. Conceptually, of course, you know, you should, she should, this is all, but it's in the experience itself. That's just a thought that crossed me. As you're saying, I could leave. I don't have four children.

I am single. Why am I glued there? What is holding me there? Why don't I do what I always dreamt she would do? And something about that doesn't make sense to me. Rationally, it doesn't make sense. But emotionally, there's something that is holding me back. And so I was wondering, sometimes a child feels too guilty to actually have more than the very parent that they wanted more for.

I understand. But as I said, I believe that I do deserve more. Rationally. Yeah. But we're not talking rationally. Rationally, you wouldn't be here. That's true. We're here because you are living a contradiction internally,

an internal conflict, and you say, what is the matter with me? Why am I doing this? I know better, and yet I don't. That's very true. What did you just see nothing now i'm just thinking think out loud it's just i believe that it has a lot to do with my past and with the environment i grew up in and Even my siblings, they already have their families and I know that they are happy, but their marriage is not the best. I see that. And again, I keep asking myself, why would you choose to live in this situation and stay in this situation when you have the option to leave.

And you're saying it's because this is what I know? I believe it's because it's something very familiar to me, something that I'm used to and I don't know any different. What happens when you meet people who appreciate you and don't just go around putting you down so they can elevate themselves? I keep those people around me and I try to spend time with them and I have really deep friendships with those kind of people. Men too?

Yeah, I have men friends as well that are my cheerleaders and are there for me and see the good things in me. And romantic partners? Not really. At least from my side, I don't consider them as romantic. No, no. But with romantic partners, can you welcome someone who appreciates you? Or I remember a woman who used to tell me, like you, I know better. This is,

what the hell am I doing there? Why am I? But there was something about winning over the very person that was putting them down, which was the reverse of what I described before of, do I have a right for better? And it was more, I'll do better. No, I have no problem. So even with this man, I'm trying to be very supportive and appreciative. But even though I do those things, I feel like it's not enough. And my appreciation is not appreciated, you know. I don't feel good in those kind of situation of course not of course not you know you're pumping yourself empty while you're pumping

somebody else up exactly for whom this will not be enough but sometimes when a child sees one parent trying to pacify the other trying to be appreciated by the other trying to cook the best meals for the other trying trying trying trying and not succeeding there is something for some children that says, I'll do better. I will succeed where mom did not. I will make this person who turns against me turn toward me. I will make this person see what I can offer them and appreciate it. Then you get in there and you keep trying and you keep trying and you keep trying. That's exactly my case. I'm just trying, trying, constantly improving in all ways.

Every single thing that he wants me to improve, I improve. And everything he asks, I just do, you know, just to make him to like me and appreciate me. So that? I will feel appreciated. So that? I will be liked and loved. So that? I can say that I succeed.

And that means what? I succeed at what? You're there. I won, basically. I did better than my mother. And I was able to change my parents' relationship. Yeah. And in order to change my parents' relationship. Yeah. And in order to change my parents' relationship,

for some reason I think I have to go and first copy it and put myself into the same miserable bin from which I then climb out. And then I know for a fact that I was able to change what happened between them and to do better. That's deep. That's true. Stay with that for a moment. I have no idea if it's true.

I'm thinking out loud with you. Remember, we were exploring together. Can we go back to the little girl that kept saying, I'll never live like this. I will never be in this kind of a shitty, violent, abusive relationship. It won't be me. Yeah, I thought that I could do better. Do you see her, the little one? Yeah, absolutely. How old is she?

She's young. She's very young. Yeah. Way too young. Way too young for this. And where is she? She's young. She's very young. Yeah. Way too young. Way too young for this. And where is she? She's scared at home. Can you stand next to her for a moment?

And just hold her hand. You see her? I do. Talk to me. Yeah. I really can do better and and i don't have to repeat my parents mistakes and my mom's mistakes and there's something better and greater waiting for me i don't have to prove anyone that i can do better. I just should do better. And for that, I have to imagine that I don't have to repeat it first in order to be able to transcend it, to change it.

Absolutely. I know what it feels like, so I don't need to go through it again. Are you still holding her hand? I believe so. So if you said to her, come with me, you don't have to stay there and you don't have to relive it in order to know that you have moved beyond it. You don't have to create abusive relationships to prove to yourself that you can be outside of one. We'll just walk away together.

And where are we going? Well, first, I believe somewhere where we feel safe. Yes. Safe means? safe yes safe means safe is where i can just be myself and i don't need to i don't need to prove anyone that i'm somebody else where things that i have and things that i can offer are enough safe is where i don't just hear you tell me all the things that I need to change, improve and correct because I am the deficient one and you are perfect as is.

Hot or cold? Definitely hot. Safe is where it's not that you think you are sliced out of Jupiter's tie. And I am in a project of improvement all the time. And all the time experiencing that I'm not enough. You are too good and I'm not good enough. Yeah, exactly. Safe is where it's not so obvious that you bring everything to me and I bring nothing to you. And I feel this way. I end up thinking, oh, all what you've done for me,

without ever mentioning what I may have offered you, brought to you, introduced you to, etc. It's very, very granular, safe. Yeah, where i can express my feelings and my needs without being selfish or labeled as selfish safe is where i can keep my autonomy and do decisions that i want to do not what other people want me to do, where I can say what's in my heart and not being scared that I won't be understood, where I can show my emotions without being oversensitive and emotionally unstable? First of all, everything you just said is such a beautiful description of what safe looks like, feels like, and what you are invited to pursue. Let's be very, very clear with that.

That is the life you are or the relationship you are to pursue. Your partner, what do you call him? Boyfriend? Partner? No, I, well, I somehow call him boyfriend, but He doesn't. somehow call him boyfriend, but I'm just a friend. I'm just a friend. Right.

Everything this man is criticizing, judging, putting down, distorting in you is what he can't tolerate within himself. I know. I know. I know. So if you know that, then you are a wonderfully rational person who has a lot of wonderful feelings. It's not that or the other, and you should let yourself be guided by your reason.

You're perfectly smart, thoughtful, understanding. You see it all. You don't trust yourself anymore because you've been put down by a person who is too insecure to be able to accept a full person next to him because he's disavowing all those parts inside of him and putting all onto you. Now, that is not a viable relationship. And when you decide to not see him anymore, there's a good chance that he may also become more vindictive and he will put you down for not wanting to be with him because he's such an extraordinary, high value person.

But the main part for you is to know, I don't have to recreate it. I don't have to mirror the dynamic I grew up in and the shit show I grew up in, in order to then know that I'm finally able to do better. Of course, it feels more intense that way. If I'm in it and I manage to turn him around and to make him see me and to finally appreciate me, then I'll know for a fact that I have been successful at creating a better relationship than my parents. That's not the only way to do it. It's to not get hooked into finding someone who puts you down

and then prove to them how phenomenal you are so that they can finally turn around and say, oh my darling, how could I have missed that? You've been here all along. I'm so thankful you're here. It's not going to happen. Thank you. So, by the way,

this doesn't warrant another conversation. At least not a conversation with him. There won't be any different conversation. The conversation is with yourself that says, if I want to do better, I don't have to go back in order to transform it. I just have to look for a different relationship. I can do it with my friends, so I can do it with my friends. So I can do it with my lovers. But it's interesting how we are able to change the dance, the pattern with our friends,

but it's a challenge with our lovers because that's the relationship that mirrors the one we have with our parents the most, our caregivers. At some point you say, dear mom and dad what would you write what i would pray and i would say thank you for showing me what life should not look like thank you for allowing me to appreciate the nice things in life. Absolutely. Thank you for raising me. And

just because of them, I am who I am, right? Without them, I wouldn't be here. But just thank you for showing me what I don't want in life. I already done this exercise. I wrote the letter to my father from a perspective of a little girl. And I was very emotional when I was writing it, right? Because it just brought me back to old times where I didn't have the power, the ability to change anything. I wanted so much, but I just couldn't. You know, it's a strange thing that we do. Because when we look back at a situation where we felt so helpless,

so little, so not able to change what was in front of us, we think, now that I'm an adult, I can finally change it. And so we go back to the scene of the crime, so to speak, with the idea that this time I'm going to do better. So I recreate the same situation over and over again. And I practice mastery. I practice as if I can finally turn this thing around. But as a result, you find yourself living the same relationship as they had. That's not your intention and that's where you find yourself and then you're confounded and you're saying, how is this possible?

It's happening because I'm trying to undo it, to transcend it, to transform it. But as a result, I end up constantly back in the same pit. And I don't need to. Now, it's more easily said than done. But every time you find yourself going back there, you'll hold the hand of the little girl. And you'll remind her

that in order to live a different relationship, you don't have to first go back to the same relationship. This was an Esther Calling, a one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther, it could be answered in a 40 or 50-minute phone call. Send her a voice message and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producer at estherperel.com. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut.

Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Eva Walchover, Destry Sibley, Hyweta Gatama, Sabrina Farhi, Eleanor Kagan, Kristen Muller, and Julian Hatt. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider.

And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, Jen Marler, and Jack Saul.