Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - Is This Worth a Second Chance?

Episode Date: January 27, 2025

Should we have tried harder to make this work? What if you're the one who got away? These are the questions that keep us up at night. This week, Esther helps a couple who were together for eight years and broke up a year ago. They've recently reconnected and wonder if they should give it another try. If they do, can they avoid falling into their old dynamics and truly learn to listen to each other?  For the month of January, Esther is offering 20% off to join her Office Hours on Apple Podcasts. It's a place to continue conversations on important topics like sexlessness, infidelity or the perils of modern dating. It's also a place to follow up with couples and find out where their stories went. You'll also get an ad free version of all the episodes. Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real. checks done. Out. Carpet in the bathroom. Like, why? In. Knowing what to do, when to do it, and who to hire. Start caring for your home with confidence. Download Thumbtack today. Calling all sellers. Salesforce is hiring account executives to join us on the cutting edge of technology. Here, innovation isn't a buzzword, it's a way of life.

You'll be solving customer challenges faster with agents, winning with purpose, and showing the world what AI was meant to be. Let's create the agent-first future together. Head to salesforce.com slash careers to learn more. together. Head to salesforce.com slash careers to learn more. He was thinking about marrying and talking about children and I was like, Oh, but is he the right person? And will he ever listen to my needs and be intimate in a way that I want. But then he felt pressured about it

and it became a huge topic that drained the relationship. She's 31, he's 37. They've been together for eight years and they've been apart, separated for the past year. Towards the end of the relationship, we got into a sort of negative spiral. And then eventually, we couldn't do it anymore. We broke up.

But this always felt very weird to me. I felt like I found my person. But then suddenly, we broke up. I try to kind of date with other people and see how that felt. And I went into therapy as well and did a lot of exercises to try and let go. But I couldn't really. And at some point I wanted to explore whether we would be a good couple again.

And he's up for exploring this. And she's wondering, did I let him get away? Is it that we're not compatible? Is there a possibility for us to reconnect? Is it that it's just who he is and who I am and we should just accept and give up? We get stuck and we get hopeless. But I would like to know, is there a possibility for us to actually be back together again? And in fact, they actually just went out together, not really on a date, but they met again a couple of weeks back. It's strange to see someone again that you haven't seen for a year, while she looked

great. At the same time, the first few times that I saw her, I also felt some resentment, to be honest. I was so nervous, but it was nice. It was good to see each other and we talked a lot and he talked a lot to me about how he felt abandoned and that we also had nice conversations and it was a really nice first date. This is one of those sessions where a couple asks, can we do it again and do it better?

Can we have a second chance? Or do we have to accept that this isn't meant to be? Or that we can't make it be what we want it to be? Is it right for the both of us? And I want it to be right, but I also have anxiety that it might not be, and that we're not compatible enough, and that it will always be a very difficult relationship.

Here's what I will invite us to be careful of, is that you say, here were all the issues. And he says, here is all what was good. And that, I think, resembles maybe something that happened already before. Yeah. And so if you brought up an issue, he tried to tell you, why are you looking at a negative? You said, it's not the negative, it's my need.

He felt criticized. He became defensive. You felt that there is no room to express anything. He felt that you always look for what's missing. Are we that cliché? It's the Spotify playlist of couples dynamics. I could have been totally off and it could have... There are other songs, you know, but this is one.

I think I heard somewhere that you both dance. Yes. So it's new moves. Your moves are predictable and you each hope the other one will surprise you. But your steps need to shift. I don't know how to do this. That's why we're here. It feels like, I don't know, maybe I'm very stuck in my head about this,

and I'm scared it will be the same. And it feels like he's how he is. I'm who I am. And there might not be a different light that you can shine on each of us. So why, why would it be different now? Because there is who you each are and there is who you each become when you are with the other. It's not will you be different people, it's will you be different with each other. It's relational, not categorical. So if you want to say the same thing as you said before, hoping that he will come up with a different response, ain't going to work.

I mean, it's predictable. But if you ask yourself, how do I do this differently? How can I talk to him so it doesn't instantly put him on the defensive? I have needs, he's deficient. Vice versa, how can you listen to what she's asking for. And here it is maybe an invitation for both of you, rather than just a criticism of you. Yeah, this was very difficult for me always because I think I can deal with constructive criticism, but I always felt, especially in the last year or so,

the threat of that these critiques were also sort of combined with the threat of the relationship blowing up. So I was, my feeling was that I was walking on the minefield. So this made it very hard for me to accept this as an invitation to do something together, because I felt I wasn't good enough and I had to tread very carefully to make sure I didn't say anything wrong or do anything wrong. So when I feel that it's a pass fail and if I fail you could leave and I could lose you. Then I don't feel safe enough to take the risks of stepping outside myself and really taking in what you say.

You want to say this in your own words? That's a difficult one, but I'll try. And say it in Dutch first. Say it from the heart. Okay. I have the feeling that at the moment... I was very afraid to lose you. That's why I tried to do it right every time. But that's what made me shoot in my defense and build up a kind of resentment

with it. I think that's about it. Do you want to translate it? Ah yes. I can ask her. Then you will know if she heard you well. Okay, yeah, please. You felt so scared for me to leave you that you didn't have maybe the space to explore it or hear it. Yeah, I think that covers a part of it, yeah.

Go back to your gut. Because what started to happen is that you began to live with a knot, maybe in your stomach or in your chest. If I don't do this, she's going to leave, she's going to leave, she's going to leave. And you began to live with a knot of, I can't stay here, I can't stay here. And a lot of the beautiful things that you have together began to disappear. So how do you start first and foremost each of you by creating this kind of reassurance where you say we have a good grounding on which we can bring our challenges. Because you're each asking reassurance from the other. I don't know if you know that. Yeah, I think so. I mean, maybe in slightly different words, but when asked for commitment

in a way is a reinsurance, right? It's sort of not formalizing but making things a bit more fixed or grounded by doing whatever you want like getting married, getting a dog, getting kids, whatever. It doesn't matter. But for me this is a reassurance that it won't just, you know, the relationship would suddenly be over which is exactly what happened. Well, it's exactly what happened. Well, it's after eight years. It wasn't so suddenly. True.

She didn't just leave after she tried to tell you something once. True. Nor twice. So here's how you shift this. It starts with what can I do that then will incentivize you to do something else. It's kind of if you want to change the other, change yourself. So then the thing is what can I do differently that will make you do something different? Go ahead. I've just no idea how to do this.

Let's try. I really wouldn't know where to start. I can't promise you a thing, but I think that it would go a long way if you had a feeling, the experience of having asked for something and having had an interaction around it that made you feel there was success. Like we were able to do this. Rather than we get stuck each time, we go right into the same gridlock

and we just feel more and more despair and fear. Yeah. And since it wasn't always an issue, you have a source of good interactions to rely on. This is not like from day one this has been a major issue. It wasn't in my experience, but I don't know how you experienced it. What is it? Can we name it? Difficulty with intimacy or difference in intimacy needs.

Say, here's the thing, talking about sexuality or physical intimacy, it helps when you are being very specific. It's like the difference between food and a particular dish. I think a difference in wanting to be open to physical intimacy like kissing without it having to lead to something, but just kissing to be together, to connect. And having that more regularly. I like to kiss. I like to kiss.

I like to kiss you. And sometimes I just want to be able to kiss you. And I don't necessarily want more than that. Is that it? It feels like that for me, but whenever I've tried to communicate that, then he would kind of literally, physically move away from me or move his head away. And that made me feel very rejected. I guess this was mostly in the last two years? I think also a little bit before that. Not in the first few years, but definitely before that.

I've just met them and I'm listening to how they listen. I'm listening to see if they're listening with curiosity, if they're listening to understand, if they're listening to know each other better, or if they're listening to basically prepare the rebuttal. And when she describes, I would approach you, I wanted more physical affection, and I felt rejected by you, his response is not about

wanting to understand her experience more, or just simply entering into her world for a moment. His response is a question of, was it Tuesday or Thursday? Was it last year or the year before? And that tells me that he is listening for rebuttal. He's preparing an argument. And so I make a decision at this moment,

since I'm only going to see them one session. I always ask myself, whose change has the capacity to instigate the bigger ripple of change? And so I'm going to stay with him for a moment because if he can open up, there will be more air entering for both of them. We have to take a brief break. Stay with us. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Blue Nile. Jewelry can be so much more than just a pretty thing to look at. The perfect ring or breathtaking necklace can over years take on important memories and become a piece that you associate with the people you love.

It can be pretty magical. The problem is that buying jewelry is usually not magical. Salespeople aren't always that pleasant, prices are off the charts and wait times can get out of control. Blue Nile offers a new way. At Blue Nile, you'll find thousands of independently graded diamonds and fine jewelry pieces at prices below your expectations. Plus, every Blue Nile purchase comes with peace of mind, thanks to some of the highest quality standards in the jewelry industry.

Blue Nile jewelry experts are ready 24-7 via phone or chat, ready to help you find a piece that you'll feel great about for yourself or someone else. You can experience the ease and convenience of shopping Blue Nile, the original online jeweler. You can go to bluenile.com today. That's bluenile.com. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Quince. Upgrading your wardrobe can do a lot for you. Some of us wear our clothes like an armor. For others, it's a form of creative expression

or just a way to get by. But it doesn't need to be an expensive effort. Queen's offers plenty of premium items at an affordable price. You can find motivation with some new active wear from Queen's like performance t-shirts, bras and tech shorts. I've tried some things from Queen's myself.

In fact, a few sweaters that I've had some things from Queen's myself, in fact a few sweaters that I've had and some from even from last year that just kept their shape and we added a few this year. Whatever you're looking for, Queen's says that all of their items are priced 50 to 80 percent less than similar brands. They use premium fabrics and finishes so every item feels like a nice luxury item. Upgrade your closet this year without the upgraded price tag. Go to queens.com slash begin for 365 day returns plus free shipping on your order.

That's q-u-i-n-c-e dot com slash begin to get free shipping and 365 day returns. queens.com slash begin. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Bambas. In the heart of winter, it's perfectly a natural urge to just want to curl up and wait for the spring thaw. But if you have things to do and you want to indulge in the occasional cozy cocoon,

why not start with a pair of Bambas socks? Bambas says their secret for the perfect pair of socks is the fabric. That's why they make socks with merino wool, cozy cotton, and more. Bombas even offers Sherpa-wrapped slippers made with marshmallow-like memory foam. I probably should try these as well, but in the meantime, I have my Bombas sport socks and my Bombas compression socks, and now I also want to try their high ankle socks that I can wear in my hiking boots for winter. I too want that comfy feeling. Bambas also wants you to know about their mission.

For every comfy item you buy, they say they donate an equally comfy clothing item to someone who really needs it. You can try Bambas now when you head over to bambas.com slash esther and use code esther for 20% off your first purchase. That's B-O-M-B-A-S dot com slash esther. Code esther at checkout. What do you recognize in what she describes? Because I'm not sure yet that I understand it. What do you recognize in what she describes?

Because I'm not sure yet that I understand it. And you seem to both know. So just describe to me what happens. Give me one scene. I'm a camera on the wall. What am I capturing? What happens to these two people? I guess for me how I experienced it is that I would be doing something in the house for example maybe working or doing something in the kitchen and then you

would come up to me and you would already be in this sort of state where you would be very close and looking for intimacy, like kissing, not necessarily more than that, but like being very close. And I would be in the state where, for example, I just came back from work or I was sort of still in a very sort of I need to get stuff done mindset or I need to get groceries, whatever. And then I wouldn't have the openness to receive this. I couldn't reciprocate this. I guess I was not very, sometimes not very empathetic and I kind of closed. And later on in the relationship there was this extra feeling on top of that Where I felt like oh she wants this again, and it's it's not good enough, and I need to you know It was kind of like a bucket with a hole in it said it constantly needed topping up

and if I didn't give enough the bucket would would empty out and So it became a chore on top of this other feeling I Enjoy being close around you and I enjoy being intimate. But sometimes I felt like my need for space or being in my own head, there was no space for that, right? It was kind of like your need came first. And I'm not sure if you always understood what my need was here. It's not a rejection, it's just that I am currently in this moment not feeling the same as you.

Yeah, I mean I can understand you might be unavailable in a moment, but that you might have a different moment where you would have this space and then would look for me, but you didn't do that. I don't know if I agree with that. At least in my memory, it's not like that. I feel like I did show affection and intimacy towards you, but I'm not sure if you always saw it. Or if you did see it, it wasn't enough. Maybe the ratio was off. But it's not like I never did that. I agree with that you showed me affection in ways, but not in the way I needed, not

in the way of kissing, for example. And you were also quite vocal about not wanting to do that if I asked you to, because you didn't want to do what I asked you, being very stubborn. Sure, I'll give you that. But that stubbornness also makes me feel like you didn't want it to. I mean, you literally said you didn't want to. How can I then not see it this way? Yeah, for me there's another dynamic which kind of feeds into this conversation. Obviously when you just start seeing each other and you know each other for a few months,

maybe a few years, this all goes automatically, right? You have a lot of passion for each other and you want to be intimate a lot of times. Whereas if time goes on, after eight years, you can still have these phases where you're intimate very often. But for me at least, the dynamic changes, right? And there's also phases that you have less desire for this intimacy. And for me, that doesn't mean like the relationship is not worth it or anything like that, but I kind of felt that you wanted to keep this bar up no matter what. You know, we need to be intimate, we need to do this, otherwise the relationship is not good. Let me ask you something. Because there's a few things swimming in the same pool here. Yes.

And you did a very good description of this competition. Who gets priority? Whose needs matter more? Why shall I do what you want? Why don't you do what I want? And it becomes very ironic, because here are two people who are kind and generous who find themselves both constantly wondering why they're being rejected. And that's the question I want to explore with you. It's like how do you end up in a situation where both of you are feeling the opposite of what you are looking for.

If I'm in the kitchen, I'm doing something and my mind is somewhere else, how do I communicate that in a way that doesn't basically make you feel more lonely? This is not about keeping a bar up, this is about connecting. It's very interesting, these statements of certitudes that you put up. Now there's a way to say, I just came back from work, that lets the other person say, it's so nice the way you welcome me. What do you want, to walk in a house where someone doesn't notice you even came in? You know, rather than she wants something from me, I'm not going to give it to her now because I don't want to. She's also offering something,

but there is a confusion between invitation and demand. Yeah, I agree. I think it's not so much that I didn't want to give it to her and like was rejecting her in that sense and this is what you felt I think. Mm-hmm. Why don't you see that I am not there yet and every time you come yes this is the same thing. Is it? Yes. You should know. I just came home. I'm just coming from work. You know, you got angry that she was putting a demand on you that you did not want to fulfil and she should not have asked so you wouldn't have had to feel so bad. And then also when there's a thing of like coming back later, it's another thing on my list, right?

I need to maintain this in my head. And that adds to the stress. Tell me something, this is familiar to you? Reacting to demands. Even translating first and foremost into a demand, then getting upset at the other person for putting you in that position. then getting upset at the other person for putting you in that position,

then experiencing their invitation as a chore on your list. Yeah, I guess I can see that dynamic also in other parts of my life. Care to share with me? I feel like in lots of parts of my life I've sort of grown on this subject, but I've been told by employers that I'm very stubborn, for example, and if they give me a task, then I will second-guess the task forever before I do it. Where did you learn stubbornness? What was useful about it?

Because we become stubborn, you know, we're not born stubborn. Yeah. I think this is like something from my teenage years. Like I had a phase where I was very sort of easygoing, but then people mistook easygoingness for weakness and they crossed my boundaries many times. And then I kind of swung the other direction and I became just I just went into attack mode if people crossed my boundary and I think I swung back quite a bit since then but maybe this reflex is still there. Do you recognize it with her? Yeah, I think so.

I didn't really connect the dots before, that it's the same thing, but it could definitely have played a role. Don't just acquiesce. If you acquiesce, then you're experiencing me doing to you what was done in adolescence. I think I agree with that this is part of the dynamic, but it doesn't cover the entire thing. Speaking for myself, the thing I've learned is that it's much better to speak from your own needs. Like, what do I want? What do I need? And for me, this is very, it was very tough and it's still tough to formulate this in my head. Like I have

no problem speaking about my feelings if I know what my feelings are, but sometimes I just don't know, right? And this also applies to what are your needs in a relationship. And instead of being proactive, I became reactive. Yes. Yes. Can I push a little bit more? Sure. Really?

Yeah, go for it. Were there times when she would come, say, let's just kiss, hug, show affection, and you were not up for it? And she'd get upset. And you'd say, I don't want to hurt you, or I don't want to make you feel bad, or I don't want you to be rejected. I know that sometimes when I'm still in transition and I need to close something before I can start something else, and that's sometimes tough on you.

And I don't like to see you sad, rather than my needs, your needs. I think I did this, maybe not in this empathetic way, but I think I've especially in the last period, I tried to do this, let me put it that way. I didn't experience it this way. I don't know how your approach was, but I felt like... You shouldn't feel upset. Why are you upset? There's nothing to be upset about. Yeah, our relationship is fine and this is just your perfectionism and you always want this and you always want this. And I mean, of course there's some truth to it that I'm perfectionistic, but it's also just wanting to be close. And I felt you've found me just annoying by wanting that. And feel like, oh, here she comes again.

Why are you doing this yeah at the end it's sometimes felt like this and I think that's true but overall during the rest of our relationship I wasn't annoyed by this you would in your body language you would back off from me and not lean in. Because I wasn't available at that moment. I think I told you several times like hey I'm still in work mode but then I didn't say the other thing like I know it's difficult for you or something like this. I didn't go that empathetic way but I think I tried to explain my behavior to you.

Yeah, but it also happened whenever you didn't work or it was just when we're in bed and we're not necessarily... You know what I'm noticing? When you listen to her, you're paying a lot of attention. Is this right? Do I agree? Is this factual? Is this fair?

Is this just? Another way of listening is, what can I learn? She's trying to say something she's been trying to say for quite a few years. What can I learn from this? This is for both of you, but it was mostly, it wasn't all the time, you know, I did this, but I didn't do that. You're in this fact-checking mode that you will have the right numbers, but you won't have moved an inch.

I don't know that it serves you that much. I don't think so. Okay. I'm glad to hear you say it. There is history behind this and that history may have not much to do with her. If I want this to change, what should I focus on? How do I change it?

So that we don't enter into she pursues and I distance and I explain why I have a right to distance and I get mad at her for not understanding my need for distance and she gets mad at me for never actually initiating closeness. And so all you talk about is the right to have space. When she's longing to actually hear you also say, I miss you too, as if she doesn't want space and as if you don't want closeness. It's like instead of how do I explain to her that I need transition time, how about how do I reconnect with my wish for connection too?

Yeah, that's, I agree with my wish for connection too? Yeah, I agree with that part. I agree. I think that's for me, it's a big challenge, right? To find my sort of need in this and to express it rather than being reactive. Yes. When you said before, one time you said, I really like when we connect. I love to be intimate with you. The mood changed rather than holding your flag because you know, it's not something about being the one who voices, I need the space, I need the transition, my needs, my needs. When you have somebody on the other side

making sure that the gap never gets too big. If she just followed you in those last few years, days could have gone by before the two of you connected in any way. Of course, it never happens because she comes back asking. Do you think I wouldn't have connected with you if you wouldn't have started? Yeah. I felt very responsible for maintaining our connection because I didn't experience any from, not in that way from you.

And you were fine with everything and you wouldn't be on the lookout for me. Maybe in terms of, hey, how was your day? I find it okay, cool, good night, but not in a connecting way. I see what you're saying. It's just for me, my memory of how it was is just so different that it makes it difficult to understand sometimes. But you didn't ask a question about your memory. You asked a question to her about what she experienced with you. Yeah, so I accept what you're saying, of course.

Period. Do you understand? Period. You ask a question about her, you get the answer and that stops there. If you go with, but I see it differently, then you're not really curious about what she just said. You're trying to verify if you agree or disagree, if you're right or if you're wrong, rather than there is me and there is you. And we have different experiences, and they cohabitate, they live together.

And I'm curious about it. And I hope you're curious about mine. The opposite of reactive is curious. The opposite of reactive is reflective. If I understood where you sometimes get stuck, it's in the right and wrong. Agree, disagree. You call that stubborn, but those are the elements that swim in the pool of stubbornness. And I think you're, tell me if I heard it well, but the question you then end up with

is too much, too little, too much, too little. Am I asking too much? Am I entitled to ask for as much? Should I live with less, but less doesn't feel good, but more leaves me feeling rejected. And too much being too much. Tell me more. Yeah, I don't know It became just quite scary to find a connection because if he Reacts this way Then I feel too much as if I shouldn't have asked it

so if I'm wrong asking it and I don't want to feel that way. I would like to be with someone who is happy with me connecting and not making me feel too much. Because it's not that I necessarily for myself need this, but I want this connection. It makes me happy to connect in that way and it shouldn't feel like an obligation to move with that. I would like you feel like it's an obligation and not something you want. And then we have had these conversations about are we too different in terms of needs, in intimacy and are we compatible enough in it?

No, you're not. That I can say. You're not because you didn't have it for the first some 18 years. This begins when he enters into, your needs make me feel invisible. I don't feel respected. I don't feel seen. And he enters into a struggle. Saying no, you won't make me, becomes more important to him than I like this too. His goal is not to tell you you want too much.

His goal is to tell you, you can't make me. I experienced that, yeah. When I'm listening to her, I hear how she's affected by him, but also how this taps into one of her core themes. How can I want without being too much or deemed too much? And so what we now have is a core theme for her. And I am going to ask with him if we can get closer to the context that surrounds a core theme for him.

In this dance that they have, when she's upset and she starts talking to him about possibly leaving him, it in fact only reinforces his self-protection and he feels not safe and he digs in more into his own need for preservation and space. But something in the rigidity and in the immediacy of his self-protection and his attempts at preservation tells me that he wasn't just hurt by her, that the hurt is older and we need to go look for its source. We are in the midst of our session and there is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Shopify.

You're planning for 2025 and you might be thinking, how can I make this year different? How am I going to build something for myself? Maybe you've been dying to start your own business and be your own boss but you don't know how to make it happen. Shopify wants to help. Shopify makes it simple to create your brand, open it for business and get your first sale. You can get your store up and running easily with thousands of customizable templates, no coding or design skills required. All you need is to drag and drop. Plus, Shopify makes it easy to actually manage your growth.

They even help with the details like shipping, taxes and payments for one single dashboard allowing you to focus on the important stuff, like keeping your business growing and thriving. Established in 2025 has a nice ring to it, doesn't it? You can sign up for your $1 per month trial period at shopify.com slash esther, all lowercase. Go to shopify.com slash esther to start selling with Shopify today. Shopify.com slash Esther. Support for the show comes from Robinhood. With Robinhood Gold, you can now enjoy the VIP treatment, receiving a 3% IRA match on retirement contributions. The privileges of the very privileged are no longer exclusive.

With Robinhood Gold, your annual IRA contributions are boosted by 3%. Plus, you also get 4% APY on your cash and non-retirement accounts. That's over 8 times the national savings average. The perks of the high net worth are now available for any net worth. The new gold standard is here with Robinhood Gold. To receive your 3% boost on annual IRA contributions, sign up at robinhood.com slash gold. Investing involves risk, rates subject to change. 3% match requires Robinhood Gold at $5 per month

for one year from first match. Must keep funds in IRA for five years. Go to robinhood.com slash boost. Over eight times the national average savings account interest rate claim is based on data from the FDIC as of November 18th, 2024. Robinhood Financial LLC member SIPC. Gold membership is offered by Robinhood Financial LLC, member SIPC. Gold membership is offered by Robinhood Gold LLC.

Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Nutrafol. You should love your hair, but that can feel impossible if you're dealing with shedding or thinning locks. Luckily, Nutrafol is here to help. Nutrafol is the number one dermatologist recommended hair growth supplement brand, trusted by over one million people. You may see thicker, stronger, faster growing hair with less shedding in just three to six months with Nutrafol. It is physician formulated

to target the common causes of thinning hair, including stress, lifestyle, hormones, aging, and more. You can start your hair growth journey now with Nutrafol. For a limited time, Nutrafol is offering our listeners $10 off your first month subscription and free shipping when you go to nutrafol.com and enter the promo code BEGIN. Find out why over 4,500 healthcare professionals and stylists recommend Nutrafol for healthier hair. Nutrafol.com spelled N-U-T-R-A-F-O-L dot com promo code begin. That's Nutrafol.com promo code begin. Did you do this growing up? I mean, is that a piece of how...

I mean... Was there a need to defend yourself and to protect? Yeah, I think my... how do you say that? My home situation with my parents were kind of conductive to this sort of behavior. The way that emotions were communicated were through anger and not like a warm feeling, right? So this was the way to communicate your feelings mostly from my parents towards me, but I guess, you know, you start to do the same thing. The reason I asked you the question about where you learned it is because there's something so set about it

that it usually says, this is not just the first time. This is not produced out of this relationship. This relationship for the first few years had none of this, or very little of this. This started actually when you began to think this relationship is set. And at that moment, it became more similar to what happened at home. And that's when you started to switch. What I mean by switch is that your need for closeness or connection went underneath your need for right and wrong, your need for protecting your boundaries, your need for the power and

the priorities. And you went from interactions of care to interactions of power, control. Yes. And you began to experience her demands for care as attempts for control. Then it becomes two different languages. And at that moment, in my mind, it's like this is from somewhere else. The same as you then feeling I'm too much, what's the amount of space I'm allowed to take when he says this or does that?

That's a narrative that is also pre-existing for you. Your issue is not about compatibility. When you go out, when you see friends, when you go dancing, when you look at the world, you have a zillion things you share. We're honing in on something very particular, but you have lots of things that you enjoy, that you do well, that you... Yeah? Is that a fair assumption? It was, but then it got all negative and difficult and whiny and...

Okay, okay. So that's where we pick up. The situation. Not to do in total. I see you looking, but I meant the whole situation. Just to be clear. Yes. So let me ask you too, for the first four or five years? I think the first three years for me were really, really nice. And that's where it shifted. Okay. So there was a few good years of all of this. So that's when I know it's not an issue of compatibility. You've developed negative dynamics.

And there's a piece in your head that once you make a commitment, you don't have to make an effort. Me? Yes. Maybe. I mean, I do recognize... It resonated a bit with me when you said it, so I guess there's... I'm never right, by the way, just so you know. I think out loud, and here and there you pick up on a little something different.

It's not meant to be a statement that redefines your whole attitude. I mean, I say it in this kind of totalistic way, but that's not its intention. You know, I can see how the struggles for control were imported from your relationship with your parents, whoever the parent is, into your relationship with your girlfriend. Yeah. But the way you're fighting to not lose yourself ends up making you lose her. you're fighting to not lose yourself ends up making you lose her. Yeah, and it's ironic, right, because in the end I want exactly the opposite, right? I also want to have like a warm relationship and eventually, you know, a family with which is very warm and connected, right? This is what I want, but it will be difficult to get there, I guess.

It's also a question whether you want to get there, because you can also not want to get there. Well, I would not be here if I didn't want to. I mean, you can still back out if you don't want to. That's not what I'm saying. He just told her that he wants it. And she's not hearing him either. it. And she's not hearing him either. She's so convinced, because of all what has happened between them, that she's the wantor and he's the naysayer. I didn't pick up on it in the

session, but I'm hearing it now. Say something about you. What have you learned? That I'm allowed to make these asks for connection and that I'm not weird or too much in wanting or needing it and that I don't necessarily have to push that need away that is valid. That is valid, beautiful, generous, inviting, caring, and that he wants it too. Part of when you ask him what does he want or does he want that, yes, some of this he wants but he doesn't know how to. This is an opportunity for both of you to learn a few things. If there was a cartoon of your family and a cartoon of you in it, and there was a balloon above your head that was kind of a central statement about you in the context of your family.

What would your balloons say, each of you? That's a very difficult question. The first picture that comes to mind is an island. It's not really a word, but it's an island, like isolated maybe a bit. Like I'm the only child before as parents, so I always felt I was by myself in a way. I had my mother, but she was always working. So it's, yeah, I guess this picture comes up. And what did the balloon say?

You have to do it yourself. You're alone? You're all by yourself? Yeah, maybe something like this. It's hard to put the finger on exactly. How old were you when they split? Four. Is there an image that often comes back? I Guess me playing by myself. Mm-hmm. What are you playing? Legos And I'm playing by myself And How old am I? Yeah, like something like 10 maybe.

Yeah. Yeah, another image is that I would have friends over and then for example I would ask if they could stay for dinner, but this was never possible, right? Because there was not enough food in the house or something like this, which was not, didn't make any sense because there was enough food, but it was just not something that my mother counted on, so we couldn't do it, right? And it's kind of fine, but it sort of enforced this, you know, feeling of not being able to have this warm family vibe even with a friend And if I would go to friends and I would say over there for dinner It was never a problem and it was would be a full house full table with like siblings. It would be very fun

So with your mom you're the one who wanted connection and friends and warmth and closeness. And she was the one saying, I just came back from work. Oh, yes. Yes. How can you ask me anything right now? Mm-hmm. Yeah, and like... Yes, in an intense way as well. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. As intense as you became. Much more intense.

More intense. What's your balloon? Um... I think I have two separate ones. In the first one it's quite busy and chaotic and it's like things everywhere, lots of colours and my family is kind of

everywhere. And it's nice and cosy but I'm also already a little bit the weird one out, just a tiny bit but not too much it's fine. And then there's another one, and I'm the one who's too much, and that would speak balloon thing, would say I'm too much, where it's a very cold grey static image. With fewer people, me being further out of it as well, being more of the weird one out and asking too much and feeling too much and being too much basically. became a battle between, you're, I'm too much, and you're, why do my needs never matter?

A number of uninvited guests appeared in between the two of you. And you began to react to each other from that place. The place of hurt, the place of grief, and you began to react to each other from that place. The place of hurt, the place of grief, the place of exclusion that each of you in your own way felt at home. And that became the place from which you responded to each other. It wasn't in the here and now anymore.

And if you ask yourself, can we resume? Can we have a different relationship? Can we be together again? It's this that needs to be addressed, amongst other things. But this for sure. Without addressing this, your relationship won't change enough. You may have some reprieve, but you'll go right back to the same groove.

So to me, what's in front of us right now is connecting the dots and then taking responsibility for creating a boundary between the now and the then. So that you get to write a new story together rather than editing an old one. Yeah. And I think either way, this will be messy. It was messy already, so... Maybe it can be messy in a good way. I hope so. It doesn't have to be perfect.

We can mess up as long as you can come back and try again and try to write a new script, right? You mean the feeling was safe enough? Like you mentioned before. Yeah, it's not like I or you will be a different person from now on, right? We need to train this. You know, you may not need to make a decision first. You may just say what we need to do is different levels of accountability. Of this is what I know I bring, this is what I know I would like to change, this is what I learn, this is what I carry.

Not in a self-blame way at all. Just simply I recognize, I notice, I'm aware of my contribution. And each of you, if you highlight your own contribution, then you don't need to spend all the time pointing finger at the other. And then you will decide if you want to be back together. Some of this is inside of you, you carry it. These things, they may come up again. Would it be different with someone else? Would it be easier with someone else? Would it be easier with someone else? That thing could be easier and then other things will be harder.

I mean, you trade one thing for another, but it could be different because it's something that is less intense. But there is a reason why you keep coming back. And a part of it is because sometimes we pick someone with whom we finally will transcend one of the original challenges of our relational lives. Each of us, we have certain relationship challenges that we bring. And the question is, with whom will we work them through? Not if and when, but with whom? And we often do it with the person who brings it out the most. Because then we have got all the ingredients necessary for the replay and maybe for the repair. Till now you've been in the replay. Now the question is, can you use it for the repair. Till now you've been in the replay.

Now the question is, can you use it for the repair? And this, you're equal on that one. Yeah. Shall we take a deep breath? All of us? You really worked very hard. And I thank you for your openness and honesty as we just met like that out of nowhere.

Thank you as well. Thank you, thank you. You're welcome. I have no idea where this is gonna go, actually. And I called them back a few months later, and later this week you'll be able to listen what landed, what they took from there, and what changed or what didn't. Kind of, what's the next chapter in the stories of these people? I think it's so important for me to know, and I think that your curiosity takes you there as well.

So it's all on the Apple subscription on Apple. Where should we begin with Astaire Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destrie Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julian Att. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider and the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and

Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller and Jack Saul.