Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - Is Using ChatGPT Hurting My Relationship?

Episode Date: July 20, 2026

She comes to Esther with a question that feels distinctly of this moment: when does a tool become a transgression? After leaving a long, stable marriage, she finds herself in a new relationship marked by intense highs and low lows. She turns to AI, using it as a real-time coach to navigate arguments and break painful communication loops. She shows up differently, and the relationship begins to shift. But as the dust settles, a new question emerges. What does it mean to rely on something your partner doesn’t know about, and wouldn’t agree with? Is her use of ChatGPT a tool or a transgression? Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [e-mail]. Producer’s Note: When our anonymous guests do a session with Esther for the podcast, it is an act of generosity for everyone who listens. These sessions are meant not only to support the people in the room with Esther, but all of us who learn from their stories. Our stories have many chapters, and what you hear is just one moment in someone’s journey. So even though the sessions are anonymous, please remember that real people are behind them and they may be reading your comments. Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I've been in a relationship for about nine months that was pretty emotionally intense. My partner is in recovery and can be very reactive and our conflicts escalate quickly. When they began, I found myself either over-explaining or getting pulled into circular arguments. I'd come out of a long, stable marriage where conflict rarely escalated, and this is my first relationship after that. So this dynamic felt disorienting, and I felt totally out of my depth. So I started using AI. Sometimes I'd consult with it to help me understand.

what was happening and sometimes I'd even use it in real time during conflict to help me regulate my responses. It kept me grounded and it also helped me do my part to influence or interactions toward peace. It helped so much. I became less reactive, more clear-headed during conflicts, and I stopped participating in the loops. At this point, I'm no longer using it in real time and I rarely even consulted about us because I've integrated most of the tools it taught me. But I don't fully know how to understand what happened because it's so much. novel. I mean, I did grow into somebody who could hold this relationship more effectively, but did I stabilize something that might not have actually held together on its own?

So he does not know I was using AI in this way, which is for a fairly open person like me, questionable in its impact on intimacy. It did feel like private turbocharged self-regulation, which was incredibly calming, but my subjective experience had an objective prop. It definitely shaped our dynamic, especially in conflict, where I'd started using AI and suddenly break the loop before I knew how to do it on my own. So I'm curious where the line is between personal support and something that affects the integrity of a relationship and where intimacy comes into play. Thanks. Avoiding your unfinished home projects because you're not sure where to start, Thumbtack knows homes,

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Happy ending. Zero tears. Give it a try at mintmobile.com slash switch. Up front payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months, or $180 for 12-month plan required $15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. Initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy. C terms. So is there anything that you would like to add? Well, I think the biggest thing I'm grappling with is the ethical question, actually, of the one-sided use and the secret use.

and whether that's, I mean, it's a brave new world, right? And AI doesn't have the kind of standards and practices that a therapist has, you know, with confidentiality and such. So I feel like in hindsight that I might have been breaking trust with him. Because literally, Esther, I would copy paste our conversations from, you know, our chat into AI because I wanted to get it right. I didn't want to just, describe my version of it, and then it would spit out a suggestion of what to say. And at first, it was completely different than what I expected to have to say because it's just, you know, I was participating in the loops like I described. And I'm really going to focus on myself in this conversation and my complicity in the loops. And that's where it really came in handy. But yeah, so what it was

describing was different because I just, I hadn't, I never cultivated those tools. The relationship I came from was with a man with whom I shared a very similar background and my new partner and I have completely different backgrounds. So I'm just, I'm needing, just needing more, you know, more help. So, but, you know, but he's totally against AI. He's not team AI at all. So I just, I just, I'm not really sure where the line is there. That's an important, that's an important statement, right? If he was team AI, we wouldn't be asking me. should I share with him or not. I'm actually, I'm not sure if I'm asking,

should I share it with him or not. I don't plan to share this with him, but I am interested in the ethics behind it. Walk me back for a moment. Sure. How did you start using AI? What made you think AI could help you in that moment? Give me an example of one of those copy paste.

What do you mean your copy paste? You wrote it all down or you recorded your fights? Oh, well, I should actually clarify that our relationship is mostly long distance. So a lot of our arguments take place over text. Okay, so the source material landed itself. Completely. What else do I need to know about that? Yeah, I'm so sorry about that.

No, no, totally. There are questions about your relationship. There are questions about what AI represents for you here and what it represents to the relationship. So there are three different touch points just to start. There'll be others potentially that may emerge as we speak. But have you had a relationship in using AI for other situations and this just became one more? Was this a whole new ignition for you? How did it start?

The first time I ever used AI, it was actually for work. I had to come up with a contract for a client. And I was like, oh my gosh, I have to draft a client. contract and this is going to take forever and I only have a few minutes and I had AI. I put all the terms into AI and it drafted me this gorgeous contract and I was like oh wow. What do you use? Chat GPT. Okay. So in conversations with my therapist about this relationship, she had recommended a couple of books to me. Stop walking on egg shows and it's not you. And then I thought to myself, there's this whole world of relationship books that I haven't really dug into. And I have this tool here

that can access all of them and synthesize the information in such a way in real time that might be really useful for my situation. And I was in a place where our dynamic had gotten so volatile. And I was at a loss as to what was mine to own and what I needed to leave with him to own. and so I asked the tool and, you know, I actually said, you know, using this large language model neural network of all the relationship books, you know, here's the situation, what do you think? And it gave me this amazing answer. It was a bit sycophantic, but I'm emotionally supported enough in my life where sycophancy actually causes me to be suspicious. So I found that I could train it not to be sycophantic, as long as I kept reminding it. But it gave me this response that gave me so much

insight into why we were the way we were together. And it shone a light on the kinds of loops that we were in. And it helped me disentangle the threads of validating him emotionally without meeting him in a loop. So does that make sense? Conceptually, it makes a lot of sense. But since relationships I lived in the details, I'll ask you to share an example that's more granular because the reason you kept coming back

is not because it was vague and abstract. You kept coming back because it was extremely precise, it was extremely pragmatic and instructive. You could instantly go and try it out, practice, practice, and then see what happens.

Yes. And come back with the next installment. Do you see each other in person ever or the whole thing is just on long distance? Oh, we see each other as much as we can. Yeah, I would say we probably spend probably about a fifth of our time together. Give me an example of... Of a time when I used it? Yeah, it's more like I didn't need it to be psychophantic.

I needed it to be super useful. Oh, yes. And I needed to see myself transform. in front of my own eyes by applying the instructions. Yes. And that became the power of it. So tell me more. So I am a woman who loves her male friends.

And I've always had male friends in my life ever since I was little. And I really value the presence of them. They're a good balance for me. And they've never, ever, ever been a threat to my relationships, my romantic relationships, they're completely separate. And he has background where he's actually been left for his ex-girlfriend's male friends. So he has that experience and he brings that into our relationship as a suspicion. So I think that's fair, but I also need to hold my own boundaries around that.

and communicate those with him in such a way that doesn't allow him or just doesn't, you know, doesn't call my integrity into question. So when I had a male friend who was traveling, stay at my house and he was not there, he had a really big problem with it. And, you know, he said some things that were not true about the dynamic. And I had to separate out. And I had to separate out his emotions, you know, his valid nervousness about it from... He accused you of cheating? Yes. Yeah.

And so I had to separate that from the reality and from holding my boundaries and asking him to trust me, disentangling his emotions from the trust. And that's really tricky, you know. I mean, my impulse, as a very logical person, is to describe my day with my friend and show him how I can't possibly be doing what he thought I might be doing with him. And even putting him on the phone, you know, I would, I put my friend on the phone with him just so they could meet, you know, on video call. And so that was, that was my impulse. It all backfired.

Right, right. What was way more useful was... I could have told you that too. Yeah. Basically, you were trying to legitimize your actions, separate the truth from his fears, be defensive, and all of this was getting you nowhere. Right, right. And so chat GPT was like a real-time coach, you know, and what I can do is I manage the situation much more. effectively by just hearing him out and just not even not being available for him to call my trust

into question and asking him to please meet me with more curiosity. If you have a question of my behavior, you need to ask me about it. And then when you ask me about it, when I answer, I really need you to trust me. So separating those threads was very useful for me. And that's, I think that all of our loops follow a similar pattern, and I've been able to deploy these tools for them. When I use it in real time, I have to say it's much quicker and more efficient in breaking the loops than I am on my own still, but I'm getting better. I'm getting there. So while you were trying to garner his trust, AI was also capturing your trust. Yes.

And what allowed you to trust it? Not as in it gave me good advice, but as in I'm going to do what it tells me. I'm going to practice something different when I'm so completely wrapped into being stuck in this repeated loop. Where did your flexibility come from? It's beautiful. Good question.

I have a pretty good level of discernment. And when everything it was telling me made complete sense and was challenging for me, but challenging in a way that felt true. So you knew when you derailed and you needed somebody or something to help you get on a different track. Yes, ma'am. And did he notice your change?

Is he aware? that you've embarked on a different track? I don't know if he noticed a change in me, as much as he noticed it changed in himself because he noticed that he was seeking more self-awareness on his own part and holding himself differently in our conflicts. He actually remarked that his, friends and family noticed a change in him that, you know, hey, it might be attributable to our

relationship, but I have to say, I don't know that the dynamic would have been complete without my use of AI. Says you. Right. Says me, sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So the loop is bigger. AI makes its recommendation. You put them into practice. when you change he changes because there's no better way

to change the other than to change ourselves when we are in a loop because if I do something that instigates you to respond in a certain way if I start doing something else sooner or later

you're going to respond differently because I'm not giving you the expected repartee so in loops, it is really the secret of how you change them. If you change you, you change the other. But the other doesn't necessarily think that you've changed. They notice their change.

Or sometimes they may say, I'm different because she's different. So in effect, what I'm telling you is that you didn't just use AI for you. AI wasn't just coaching you. AI was coaching the relationship. Yeah, that feels accurate. Yeah. Did you read some of the same things in the books that were given to you? It did.

Yeah, they were very similar to what the AI was coaching me to do. Or the AI learned well, a large language model. The error goes in a different direction. Yes. So, CHAT, GPT is regurgitating in a very, efficient way, what it has taken from, as you said, all the books that I couldn't read. Yeah. You know?

And is there been moments when it said something and you said, I'm not doing this? Do you argue? I do. I argue with it. You know, sometimes, yes, I have to say sometimes it's a little bit in human. Maybe it was right and you were wrong. That's true. That's true.

But often its recommendations are so cold. you know, and they're inhuman. And I am a very warm. Give me an example. Oh, okay. I don't know you. So if you tell me warm and cold, I don't really know what that represents for you. Okay. So I'm not just nosy for the sake of nosy, but in the examples, I get to experience more

of you on a granular, sensitive level. Yeah. Would you mind if I looked something up real quick? Go ahead. Let's see. I'm just going to look at my phone. Yeah, I'm just going to look at my phone and see and see if I can find real quick a recent recommendation that I thought, oh, man, I'm not, I can't say that because it's so cold. So let's see here. So something I was trying to draw a line about some assumptions he made when I called him.

And the AI suggested that I said, you can have your reactions, but I'm not the place you disliked. charge them by assuming things about me. And that to me reads as a little bit combative. What it does, though, what's what I think chat GPT is really good at doing is giving me different options and letting me choose from them or synthesize them. And then I can I can look to see the different angles it comes from so that I can do something and then add my voice and add a little bit more personal context. We have to take a brief break.

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Tell me more about your relationship now. Interestingly, at this point I know more about your relationship with the chat, then I know about your relationship with your boyfriend. Yeah. Okay. So it's the kind of dynamic where we have very high highs and then the lows suck. There are lows that I've never had in a relationship before. Or if I have, it's been a very long time, you know, back maybe in my early 20s. And the same is true for the highs?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Most definitely. I've never experienced this kind of high before. in a relationship. And I don't mean like a high as in like a drug high, but just the kind of, just the, um, our connection is just so beautiful and so meaningful to me. It's woken me up in ways I've never been awake before. In what sense? Well, I see the world through trinities. The mind, body, spirit, head, heart, hands, et cetera. And, you know, I've always been very good

at cultivating my Trinity individually, my mind, heart, and body. But I've never really cultivated a connection between my heart and my body. And that is a connection that it's really woken up in this relationship. Our dynamic has really activated that. And it's not just in our relationship, but it's the kind of thing where I can feel gratitude more in my body now. I can feel joy in my body now. I can feel sadness. Before meeting him and having this relationship, I hadn't cried since I was probably 10 except at my grandma's funeral a few years ago. And now I'm an emotional person. Now I cry. It's wonderful. And I absolutely credit our relationship with waking that up. So it's very precious to me. Now, I'm sure that the connection was always there, of course. It's just now

to wake and he's really helped me realize that. So I know it's meaningful to him as well, and it seems only to be getting better, you know, especially now that we can have more healthy conflicts. I was for 10 years before this in a relationship that was stable, that may have been more distant, more conflict avoidant, no highs, no lows, steady temperature. I don't know why you left or why it ended, or why they left, for that matter. I don't know the end of that relationship. But I find myself, or you find yourself, in a new relationship that has all the passion that the previous one lacked.

but the passion comes with an erotic intimacy, an erotic charge, and also an erotic wrath. And it goes from heaven to hell and very fast. And if we don't find a way to not drop so low, slowly but surely the highs will erode. So I needed to find something fast and effective. and you did something that is quite wonderful, which was to say, I'm going to focus on me. Because it's very easy in a dynamic like this, since it's part of the core of the dynamic,

to be a blame fest. You do this, you do this. I do this because you, I wouldn't do this if you didn't. It's a whole blame fest. Yes. That's part of the loop. So you decide, I need help. I need to change this.

can I do? I don't want to be in this place. I don't want to say what I say. I don't want to feel what I feel. I don't want to do what I do. How do I step from out of this? And in that sense, you're using this AI, this machine in a very pragmatic tool-oriented way. Yes. And part of your question is, is this a tool? Is this legitimate tool? Is this a transgression? Yes. Which is no longer a tool. Is there a breach?

Am I violating something? Is this an ethical dilemma? Or is this simply, I couldn't read every book I wanted to read, so I found a very good reader's digest. That's so true. Okay? That's why I want to know about the relationship, because what happens when you said to me,

No, no, I don't plan to share any of this. Okay. I mean, not that you have to know that that matters to me. But what you did say is he is not into this. No. So that is where it taints or tints, maybe is a better verb, the secrecy a little bit more. Yeah.

It's like whatever he would not be into that I'm doing behind his back. and not only am I doing it behind his back, but on top of it, I'm bringing it into a relationship, and little does he know. I know, and I have to tell you, though, I think I justify it because if the tables returned and he were doing this, if you were using AI, I would absolutely celebrate it.

I would love for him to get a second opinion, as long as he was using what I was really saying and not his version of, you know, if that makes sense. Right. But what I'm saying is that your ethical dilemma, takes place in the context of a particular relationship where your partner has strong opinions about the very thing that you're questioning. Yes.

And you can't ignore that. Yeah. And I, honestly, when I say it's not what I think here, because I have no answers to some of your questions. These are new questions for many of us. But the question about, is this a tool or is this a transgressive? I want you to think about for a moment as you experience it. Yeah, I think that you made a really good point a while ago when you said that, you know,

when I was describing the granular conflict and you said, I could have told you that, you know, I meaning you. And so I think what if what if I were in a relationship where I needed support and I were to seek out the help of a therapist. And my partner would say, I don't like therapist. I don't believe in therapy. I think there are a lot of bunk. Mm-hmm.

Yeah. So is this parallel? I don't know. So I have been in situations where one person comes to therapy and the other person is a convinced skeptic, thinks the whole thing is useless. And the question is not about what people think about therapy, in my mind, or what people think about the AI, for that matter. I mean, not that they are irrelevant, but I would put another one on top of it. You can't sleep and you decide to take melatonin, and the other person thinks melatonin is useless.

You want to eat a certain way and you change your entire diet and the other person thinks it's stupid. It's what is the level of differentiation in the relationship? How much does one person live side by side with another person who thinks differently about certain things,

does different things, practices different things without thinking, if I don't like it, if I don't agree with it, if I don't believe in it, if I'm not a convert, you shouldn't be doing this. Or I'm going to tell you on a regular basis how poorly I think about it. Which I'm saying to you is that the process, the dynamic is more important the particular issue. If the issue is drinking, taking melatonin, going to therapy, doing the AI, they are not the same, but the dynamic may be the exact same one.

I see. And the dynamic is, you shouldn't do what I don't like or what I don't believe in or agree with. Differentiation is about the acceptance of otherness inside a relationship without reactivity. Yeah, I see what you're saying. Which is in effect what the is. I counseled you on.

He didn't just counsel you about how to not engage and get angry and be in a fight. It told you how to be able to listen to him without agreeing with him. That's differentiation. It told you about how to elicit curiosity toward you, which means engaging with the otherness. It didn't just say, let me show you the guy that's staying with me so that you can see that I'm not sleeping around and I'm not cheating on you because that really wasn't doing it. It showed you how to have empathy without having to first constantly being into self-legitimization. That's differentiation.

So one thing I say to you is when you get advice from the chat, it's useful to know what is the advice you're getting. Yeah. What is it actually coaching you on? It is coaching you not just on reducing conflict. it is coaching you on tolerating difference and introducing the tolerance for difference inside your relationship.

Yeah, that's really beautiful too because we are so different. Oh, man. Our backgrounds are different. We are different. And our outlooks on the world are different, you know, politically different, all the differences.

And I think, you know, I love us and I love people who are different. They expand my world. But being in a relationship, one is certainly fraught with a lot of friction. And I'm just, I'm so grateful to this tool for helping me navigate that friction in a way that has made it work. I'm not sure it would have worked otherwise, to be honest with you.

Because I would have felt attacked unjustly? Yeah, yeah, attacked and stressed and questioning myself all the time and questioning my sanity. I guess bending to. contorting too much, contorting myself too much in order to match what I felt like he was demanding of me, you know, rather than holding my own and respecting my own boundaries and being able to stand solid in myself and to really celebrate our differences as, you know, as I want to. Because I love the way that he's different from me. You know, he pushes me, challenges me, and I just, I love that about us. But as you know, it just comes with this other side that I'm

navigating. And the other side is what? Oh, the ways of approaching conflict, the friction that happens. That comes after. There would be no conflict if you said yes to everything. Right. You say I love the difference. Yes.

Does he? Or does he like to change the difference into sameness? That's a really good question. He says he loves the difference. Yeah, he says he loves the difference. On a good day. Yeah, on a good day, he says he loves the difference. And he also, on a good day, he says how much he has learned from our relationship.

And, you know, when he walks, he loves how he walks differently. And he loves the feedback that he's gotten from family about his changes, about, you know, his confidence. and his calmness. There are some things about me that I think that he wishes were different. Do you want me to be specific? Mm-hmm. Okay. You understood me.

So, yeah, okay. Thank you. His background is a little bit more suspicious of institutions than mine is. And he has... let's see, I call it the C word, but I'm going to go ahead and use it. He knows all about the conspiracy theories that are out there, and he gives them a lot of credence. You know, on a still day, he'll look up at the sky and look at all the con trails

and just kind of be like, oh, they're poisoning us with all the chem trails. And I'm more, I'm a little bit more trusting of our institutions, I think that institutions are really useful in our society, and that's my point of view. And I'm learning that that's a big sticking point. So it makes a lot of sense with his background that he is mistrustful of institutions. And I like to have him send me all of the sources that he uses to validate his worldview so that I can understand it and question mine if needed. I think that he sees me as kind of naive, maybe a little bit blind.

And it's an interesting power dynamic, you know, because he, I think, and I know this is kind of common for a lot of people who give credence to this stuff is, you know, they kind of see that they have access to this. truth that the mainstream doesn't have access to. And I think that he wishes that I were a little bit more suspicious along with him. So that's just one example. It's a big one. And we're coming to the place, I think, where we're trying to share our information sources a little bit more with each other. Is he curious about yours? Not really, to be honest.

You're naive. He thinks I'm naive. And he figures that my information sources are all the mainstream media, which, you know, he doesn't trust. That's not really true. I do have my little nichey outlets that I like. But yeah, he doesn't trust that. He still thinks that I'm very mainstream and naive. We are in the midst of our session.

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One place, everything you need, no bouncing between stores. Ready to upgrade your home for Wayless? Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. and get your space ready for less. That's W-A-Y-F-A-R.com. Have you asked, Chad, to think with you about the power of what the physical passion represents for you in your ability to be in the presence of differences that you probably would not have?

chosen otherwise? No, I haven't asked that that question. That'd be a great question. But it is a question that you have, right? It is. Absolutely. I got to tell you, though, I do, I have a, my family is a little bit more, it's kind of between the two of us.

And I always, I like challenging conversations and I like, I love nuance. But when you tell me what you do. just did, it's not a challenging conversation. Because chat tried to switch your response from attack and reaction to reflection and curiosity.

Yes. What I asked you is not if you agree, if you think alike. I don't think homophily should exclude politics. So that's not the point. But what you're telling me is the burden is on you. To smooth the differences.

And I'm accepting this burden because of the passion? Yeah. There's very few things that can actually withstand the power of these differences than the power of the body. Not the heart, not the mind, the body. So when you say I read his things I look at his sources I am the naive

I am the one who doesn't see I read the mainstream bullshit I he sets the tone on that and so I'm just thinking it's an interesting thing it's like you're willing to change your mind

you're willing to which is great by the way but you are with somebody who expects you to change your mind if anybody is to change their mind. Perhaps, yeah, I definitely don't expect him to change his mind. I don't see that ever happening. That's okay.

It's something that we've navigated so far, and I think as long as we are respectfully each other, am I getting it wrong here? No, but you're not getting wrong at all, but there's something you feel and you don't want to see it. It's one thing to respect differences in this. another thing to be cast as the naive. Yeah, it is, it is pretty shitty. Okay. You're telling me, I have strong opinions. I can hold my own. I have been with more on one man in my life.

I have had different types of relationships. And I don't know anything before the one before this, but I hold my ground, is what you're saying. And that's a different thing. To be the naive. With naive comes a whole set of other associations. That's personality. That's not content. That's why I'm asking you. So you're asking you to explore what that means in the other parts of our dynamic. Yeah.

Yeah. Because so far you've asked chat help with very specific things. Yeah, like real time. I don't want to act this way. How do I act another way? that's very, very helpful and precise. Now you're entering a range of other issues in the relationship that are a lot more subtle.

They're not obvious, they're not explosive, they're not argumentative, they're not adversarial. It's kind of how do I co-opt? So how do I use that as a framing for this next phase of our relationship? as I work out the subtleties of our compatibility and our power dynamics. You got the word, right?

You know, I feel like that's a really interesting, like intellectual exercise, and I'd love to talk about it with my therapist. But I wonder what chat GPT would say about that. I'm going to write it down. You want to ask? Go ahead. Right now? Yeah, let's see.

Okay, okay. So, let's see. I'm curious too. Okay. So he thinks I'm naive about world issues. It's just like brass hacks here. Mm-hmm. All right.

So taken as a pattern, how does the intensity of our physical connection override? Be strong enough to withstand the diminishment of my mental abilities. Okay. Thank you for that. And I'll tell you why this becomes a relevant question. Okay. Because if at some point, chat understands you better, doesn't put you down for what you think, doesn't claim you to be naive in your worldview and whatever else, then your relationship with the AI will change. I like being in a relationship with a human, with somebody, like a messy human.

you know it's it's very rewarding it's beautiful I like all of it you know I love the I love the whole gamut of the human experience I love you know the fact that I can feel sadness now and cry about it is gorgeous to me and the fact that I can feel joy in my body is gorgeous to me so relating with AI is just not like that at all it's all it is just it's tapping into knowledge. In the moment it starts becoming a sycophant, I, you know, I shut that down because I don't want that validation, you know. I know I'm a reasonable person and I know that I'm intelligent enough. Yeah. But I do, I'm concerned about that for sure for the people who, who don't have that, you know. But you're being very clear about yourself. So I can totally put aside,

concern that I raised with you. So what does it say? What does it answer? All right. So I'm just going to go ahead and tell you the other friend. Okay, so he thinks I'm naive about world issues. Taken as a tip of the iceberg for a pattern might the intensity of our physical connection be strong enough to withstand my discernment on these matters. Okay, short answer, no. The physical connection won't carry a structural mismatch in how you're seen and interpreted. Longer answer without softening it. What you're describing isn't really about world issues. It's about epistemic trust. Does he believe your perception of reality is sound? Right now, across multiple situations, he assigns intent, questions your read, and positions himself as more accurate. That's a hierarchy.

My read is greater than your read. And once that hierarchy is in place, it doesn't stay contained to one topic. It generalizes. By the way, that is being answered on the basis of things it's now remembering. Yes. Okay. A little bit, yes, yes. Good friends. Okay. Okay. Why the physical connection won't offset this?

Strong chemistry can, increase tolerance, delay confrontation, make repair feel more rewarding, but it does not correct misalignment in respect, trust, and interpretation. In fact, it can make it worse, because the better it feels physically, the more you're tempted to overlook what doesn't hold structurally. The real question isn't about intensity. it's this. Can you feel attracted to someone who consistently doubts your judgment and assigns you a lower level of discernment? You already answer that earlier, which I did. My attraction drops when he assumes negative its intent.

Naive is just a more global version of the same move. The next section is what this pattern becomes over time if unchanged. Are you interested? In the first line. Okay. Not hypothetically and predictably. You explain your thinking more. He pokes holes and reframes. You defend her withdraw. He retains the position of them more accurate, which erodes ease respect and desire.

And you either disengage emotionally or start editing yourself to avoid being misread. And then it corrected my framing. It said the correct frame is, does this relationship support or erode my ability to trust my own perception? So that's the question. And, yeah, that's everything, isn't it? it's interesting. There does seem to be a growing disconnect sometimes. And I don't think it overrides my ability to trust my perception, but I do think it might override my ability to bring that trust

to bear, if that makes sense, because it's so, yeah. Yeah, that's why the chat says. You will avoid these confrontations. So, I'm going back to your original question, because we have arrived to the end of our time together, which is, how do I ensure this remains a tool and doesn't become a transgression, figuratively, metaphorically, the transgression, as in it's a secret, I'm hiding it from him, and in part because when it comes to, you know, it's a secret, I'm hiding it from him and in part because when it comes to AI, the dynamic is not that different from the politics. It's the same.

It's like a way that, so he has his power, that he's keeping close to the best on his side, and this is my power and keeping close to the best on my side? Exactly. So the next question is, what are the rules of transparency? What are the rules of privacy? and what makes for secrecy in a conspiratorial viewpoint of the world

there often is not really a sense of privacy it's transparency or secrecy separately from politics so that's another question and these are questions for you to ponder these are not questions that we're going to answer in our conversation.

But what is privacy for you? And what is privacy in our relationship? How does the relationship evolve that some things that we are expecting to share from it with each other and some things remain very much our own? Does it change if we have a way to move in together versus if we live in a long-distance relationship?

How does the circumstances of our relationship dictate what is shared and what is personal. If we live apart, we don't have to tell I'm going now and I'm coming back then. If we live in the same place, there's more likelihood that we would have to make that a shared piece of information rather than just my life, the rhythms of my own life. These are developmental questions of any relationship, separately from any tech. Yeah. And I came from a place where, to me, like, intimacy equals full disclosure about everything.

Intimacy equals full disclosure, okay? Mm-hmm. Of everything, you know. But there is a possibility that if he is in recovery, he has known to do things not in a transparent way. So often, people who have had addictions are masters of hiding. in all kinds of ways. And they often think other people are hiding because they know very well how to do it themselves.

Yeah, there's where the trust issue comes in, for sure. I don't trust you is often because I know what I would be doing if I was in your situation or I am capable of doing such a thing or I've been in situations that make that very much a possibility. Mm-hmm. How is this conversation for you so far? Because we have to stop it, unfortunately. Yeah, I know, I love it.

I think it's wonderful. I had no idea what to expect going into this. And, you know, I love that you made me ask ChatTPT a question in real time. And you framed it in a way that I think was so far below the surface for me, but made a lot of sense. and it brought it up. And I just, I feel like you really heard me and what I was saying. And I loved your framing of our relationship once you learned our,

learn more about it, you know, and our passion. And then you have such a great background with these very volatile dynamics and kind of can identify that, you know, while, yes, they're high highs, they're also low lows and navigating those as a challenge. and here I found a tool to help me navigate those challenges so that I can enjoy the high highs a little bit more and make it last longer, you know, to be honest. So, yeah. Good. Thank you.

You're welcome. I wish we could talk more, but we have to stop. So I'm going to just put three dots at the end of the sentence. And thank you very much. You're helping me think and ask new questions as well. Thank you. This was an Esther calling, a one-time intervention phone call recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Astaire, it could be answered in a 40- or 50-minute phone call.

Send her a voice message, and Astaire might just call you. Send your question to producer at esteraparel.com. Where should we begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise? We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julianette.

Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider and the executive producers of where should we begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.