Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - Long Distance and Lost

Episode Date: July 24, 2023

They knew each other as kids. He grew up in a house where love was never a guarantee. She had the seemingly perfect family and all the love in the world. They've recently begun a romantic relationship as adults, but still can't seem to find their footing and separate themselves from their vastly different histories. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

I thought for a lot of my life that unconditional love between partners doesn't exist. I always said that you can only get unconditional love from a pet or a mother before puberty. Those are the only two times in my life where I've ever experienced unconditional love. None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real. This is a new couple that is having a long-distance relationship.

We get into these loops where I don't feel emotionally safe, and he clearly is triggered by something I may be doing, but he refuses to talk about it, and we can't get out of it. I've never been comfortable in relationships. It's always been kind of an uphill battle. But there is one connective tissue that is very important, which is that they've actually known each other for many, many years because he was a friend of her brother. Her family became a family for him as well. And she was the younger

sister. So they've known each other, but they don't know each other. He attended my dad's in-rule. I had friends who saw us together and were like, you guys look so happy together when you're together. Both of them are from Nigerian families that grew up primarily in the United States, but they also within that have a lot of differences. She grew up in a stable and very loving family. I feel very strongly that I was showed what love looks like, what to expect, what it takes to navigate. Whereas he grew up with a lot of early childhood trauma. There was only mom, but mom wasn't always there either. And the way that I acted towards my mother

was how I acted towards a woman in my relationship. And it's funny because I got the same reaction from some of the women in my relationship that I got from my mother. He was telling me that I was one of the few women or one of the first that he's dated that is not like his mom. There's a lot of other aspects of his family

that are fractured and marked by scarcity and that have shaped his upbringing and his history. How do I fit with someone who's grown up, you know, a plant that's been watered? How does this like desert cactus fit into your garden? I'm imagining that each of them has spent a lot of time with their own thoughts alone, trying to interpret and make sense the behavior of the other. There's been a lot of times where we have conflict and he just shuts down the conversation.

You know, it's like we're playing chess, but I feel like I'm playing chess with somebody who doesn't really know that she's playing chess. And that's what led me to then say, maybe we should start a session separately so I could enter the emotional universe of each of them to understand how they interpreted and how they understood what the other one is saying or doing. You know, I had a thought, which was to actually start me alone with each one of you. I love that idea. Okay. Oh!

Touch me, I'm totally... Okay. Okay. So you want to just toss a coin and see which one starts? I'll step up. I'll step up. Okay, good. That way when we come together you'll be more...

Chill? Okay. Okay. Sound good? Okay, I'll start. Where are they? If your dad knew that you are here today, what do you think he would say? I don't know. It still makes me tear up. He just passed. Yes, yes, I understood that. And very recently, right? I mean, you were close to him. He was close to you. And he seemed to care deeply

about you. What do you think he would, or what would you tell me if I said, sir, what should I know before I start to have a session with your daughter? How would he present? I think he would present me as someone who's really loving and caring, but also can be exacting. And I'm very sensitive. And I think sometimes it's hard for me to say I've been hurt. What do you say instead? I'm pissed?

No, I usually withdraw. And so sometimes what happens is when I'm upset about something, I kind of stew on it for a while. And then it takes me time to kind of be like, hey, you upset me. Like with my dad, we'd become comfortable enough. And my dad was really emotionally intelligent. So even though he would upset me and I'd be like, dad, that upset me. And he'd be like, okay, I'm sorry. Like, let's talk about it. And I feel like he always opened the door to repair with me. And I think for me, that's really important to feel like I have a safe space to do that. I think it's really tough because I feel like there's never that opening, that safe space. What would he say instead?

Nothing. And then when I even sometimes get the courage to say something, he shuts down the conversation. How? He'll say, I don't want to talk about it. Like, I'm not talking about it. You can't force me. He tends to get really, I think it's hostile, like, when he gets upset. And so that makes me kind of, like, withdraw into myself. So it's hostile, like when he gets upset. And so that makes me

kind of like withdraw into myself. So it's just tough. And he shuts it down, you think, why? What does he experience from you? So. Or not from you, but with you. With me. I don't know. I've asked and I feel like I don't get an answer. And I feel like whenever I try and probe, it just never ends well. I feel like I can name my emotions, be more precise about them, talk about them. But when I try to have that conversation with him, I feel like I don't get anything.

And it's so, it makes me just feel like he's not in this. The question that I often ask when I hear such a description is, do you see this as who he is, or at least parts of who he is, or do you see this primarily as this is what he does to me? So by intentional, I mean he does this to me and therefore I personalize it. By descriptive, it's this is the person I'm dealing with and he is this way, not just with me for that matter one puts the focus on her as the recipient of his responses and his reactions or lack thereof and one puts the focus on her ability to understand him to see his struggles his vulnerabilities his limitations even. Do you see his ins and outs as intentional?

Or do you see it as this is what he learned? So I think conceptually, I know it's what he learned. But it's hard emotionally to believe it's not intentional. I think the slights sometimes are just so painful that I'm just like, is it me? And sometimes he'll say, even when he gets upset at me, like, I don't, this doesn't happen with anyone else. I feel like he's blaming me and it just makes it feel so personal. Everybody can see that what they experience with their partner

doesn't happen with anyone else except for the people who raised them. Because there's only two relationships that often mirror each other. And it's the one with the people who raised us

and then with the people we fall in love with. Yeah. I think this is where I struggle because he said, I'm one of the first women he's dated that's not like his mom. Yeah, that think this is where I struggle because he said, I'm one of the first women he's dated that's like not like his mom. Yeah. That means that you are different, but that doesn't mean that he changed. Fair. That's fair. It's good that he tried to change

the subject of his desires, but that doesn't mean that. That's fair. That's fair. I know. It immediately says he became magically different different he may have hoped he would be different if he chooses a different woman yeah that's a beautiful hope yeah it helps but that's not the whole story yeah yeah how western are you in the way you conceptualize coupledom marriage family or how much you You are Yoruba? Yes, Yoruba. So I would actually say I am more Nigerian in that sense. Is marriage for you between two individuals or between two families?

It is between two individuals, but families are intertwined. So that's Yoruba plus. Yes. Yoruba plus. It's Yoruba plus living in America. That is it. That's my adaptation. And are there things between the two of you that are because you live between these two cultures? Yes. I feel that there's a lot of shared experience that I think we both like. And, you know, how we were raised and certain things about Nigerian culture that are very important to us. So one, I feel like I think we both believe in the family, the unit. Also making sure that like culture is important and knowing where you come from.

I think being like respectful of elders so for example like i take i took care of my parents right like i visited my dad's grave for the first time on sunday with my mom and she was like we were the last two people that saw him and we were the first people are seeing him now right like i was there every day it was it was a lot you know um and and it just felt like I was on my own. I feel like he just did not support me during that time. And I was just so angry. And I just couldn't deal with someone who couldn't be there for me.

Like I, but it was like he couldn't step up. He couldn't support me. And he acknowledges that? No. He thinks what he had to offer, I should have taken. I remember we got into an argument somehow on the phone. And then he was like, you can't lean on me. And then you get times where then like a week later, he'll say, hey, I'll be here to support you in any way.

I'm like, did you forget what you told me a couple weeks ago? Right. But I'm going to, if you allow me yeah i don't know him i haven't met him yet but i do understand that he grew up with major precarity okay in a situation where um love was not shown very generously, to put it mildly. And basically, when you say, I want to rely on you or I want to lean on you to someone who has never had anybody to lean on, that's sometimes complicated. You think he understands what you're talking about because you're using words, but that doesn't mean that he can understand them

because emotions are embodied experiences that he has not sometimes had the opportunity to learn. That's part of why I'm asking you if you think there's things that are intentional or there are things that are simply for lack of knowing. And then the goal would be for him to see the opportunity that he has. That's fair. With you to learn a different vocabulary. So it's a tricky thing because you're both from the same culture. You both have the culture plus the American influence.

But you have very different family cultures. Very. So this theme of can I rely on you, can I lean on you, is the central theme for both of you, but with very different ingredients. Does that resonate? It does. I think that is the theme. And there's, like, affection is really hard.

And I feel like I love to be really affectionate. And he was a lot in the beginning. And now there's a lot of, like, withdrawing that I feel like sometimes feels like punishment. So even when we were walking here, I grabbed his hand. We were walking together. He then started to, like, film something and then, like, took his hand away. And then it never came back. And then in my head it was like.

So you interpreted right away. Yeah. You're not there for me. Or you don't want to be here with me, or you don't feel close to me. Yeah. You personalize it. Yes, I do. Why?

I don't know. I do. But I do personalize it. You are used to being a straight-A student or something? Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. I would definitely say that. You know what it was? I think our beginning started off so well, and then our first trip together, I think that's when the first violations started to happen.

And ever since then, I've kind of been on alert. And he has a habit of not apologizing and never saying sorry. So I feel like there's no repair. Like there's no intention of repair. And your dad did that so beautifully. And you lost your dad at the moment you met him. Yeah. And there's a part of you that wants to experience with him what you had with your dad.

Yeah. Yeah, because that's my baseline. And he might be different, and I'm open to that. But it just feels so hard when it's like nothing. Yeah. When it comes to her father, the relationship was so tight that I'm not sure she actually understands how special it was. Partly because she actually says that was the baseline.

So she thinks that is the norm. And from there, she ends up experiencing what comes from her boyfriend as akin to nothing. So now I want to meet him. Sir. Madame. So this is an interesting situation, right? You know her because you know her family, because you're friends with her brother. Her mother's were friends. Her mother's were friends. You're kind of a son of the house. The parents stopped being friends, but you continue to have these families a

little bit as one of the families that you... For sure. One of the homes, right? They were my Cosby family. They were like the... But when you say in the intake interview that this is the first woman who does not resemble your mom, what do you mean? Like a domineering personality or somebody who I have to fight against. One of the last situations that came to mind

was I had been living outside of the house. And, you know, we were arguing about something. And I remember I was like, I told my friends, I was like, look, just take me to the house. Let me go pick up some things. And my mother ended up calling the police on me. And I was telling the police remember I was like, I told my friends, I was like, look, just take me to the house. Let me go pick up some things. And my mother ended up calling the police on me. And I was telling the police, I was like, look, there's a room up there. It's a room. I described the room, described the boxes. And she was like, no, no, no, that stuff is not his. The police officers were like, hey, we just want to go see if this checks out, you know, what he says. And it ended up being

exactly what I described it as. Officer, let me get get my things and the last thing he said to me he was like hey i've seen a lot of like domestic violence and things like that he was like if you stay around her a long time she's going to get you in trouble like if your mother can call the cops on you in rural georgia she was like be careful with her because this isn't somebody that like that seems to have your best interest at heart. At that point, it was like, oh, I really can't have you in my life because you are a threat to my freedom. You say that and you kind of smile, but it's not funny at all. It isn't funny, but coming to that realization, it almost brings clarity. Because you try, I mean, I didn't grow up with a father. I didn't grow up with male in my life.

I read this book from Eric Fromm recently called The Art of Loving. Just reading that book made me cry so many times. I came to a realization recently that my mother was my source of unconditional love. And then she turned and became my source of conditional love. In what ways do you think that your experience with your mom is still with you today? How does it enter into your relationship? I always expect kind of an ulterior motive.

Or even if it's unconscious, like there's something that she wants, that, okay, I'll give you this, but on the back end, there's something that I'm going to have to do because you gave me that. For me, like trust, you know, doesn't really start out with 100%.

It starts out with like 12, and then time and experiences build that. So you are constantly doubting her. For sure. And you own that. For sure. You've said so much to her?

I'll say no. I'll say no that I haven't said plainly. I have doubt in your motives. But not because of you. I definitely didn said plainly. I have doubt in your motives. But not because of you. I definitely didn't say that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I definitely didn't say that part. It's the second part of the sentence

that will make all the difference. You know, it's like we're playing chess, but I feel like I'm playing chess with somebody who doesn't really know that she's playing chess. I desperately wanna be loved, but when someone acts lovingly toward me, I don't know how to receive it. Because I don't trust it.

Because I think that there's going to come a demand attached to it. For sure. Or what you call the condition. For sure. Because I've learned with my mom that nothing came for free. That resonates, which I don't have an issue with. Like I know, but she does and you should too. And you should too, because you deserve to receive.

I think about how transactional I am and how I guess comfortable I am with being transactional it's like hey I did this for you you do that for me where did you learn that? I just you know with a logical mind

I'm just like this is this we learn no that's what I'm saying like because of the experiences I've learned, it's easiest if like, one of my favorite experiences in a relationship, period. But you confuse intimacy with an accounting system. You're reading books about unconditional love and you're giving me an accounting system. Something's off.

Yeah. This is one of those situations where someone tells me a rather sad story. I don't believe anyone is loving toward me. It's just a prelude to using me. And while he says it, I feel it. But I can totally see how hard he has worked at protecting himself from the deep pain and wound that actually

lives inside this belief so I'm experiencing the tension in my gut and the chest oh god well he has learned to put a smile to cover up such deep pain at the same time he knows that it's something he brings that this is his it's a beautiful line

of self-awareness when he says i'm playing chess with someone who doesn't even know so i think it's time to meet with both of them now. So here's what I want you to have a conversation with her. It's a conversation where you talk with her about how you learn to hold back. Because, you see, you can say, I'm no longer with women that remind me of my mother. But that doesn't mean that you are different. If you find someone who is different, then it's in order for you to have the opportunity. To be different. Yes. Definitely. someone who's different then it's in order for you to have the opportunity yes and you find someone who comes from a loving family whose was adored by her

dad who loves to give who shows up for people and now it's your turn it's your turn to take advantage of this to see the opportunity in here for you. I said that I thought the theme of today for her was the conversation I wish she had with you is, can I lean on you? Are you there for me? And I think the theme for her is, can I lean on you and are you there for me?

Because she had someone she could lean on that she just lost. And the theme for you is because you've never had someone. She's asked me that a lot. Like, can I lean on you? That's definitely been a topic of conversation. So I'm going to ask you, if you said something that I struggle with, something I grapple with,

that I bring to this relationship is my challenge. Being there for someone who seems to have it all. What do I have to offer? Yeah. Or how do I fit? Somebody who's checked off so many things on their bucket list or someone who's grown up with, you know, a plant that's been watered. How does this like desert cactus or this,

how does this cactus fit into your garden kind of thing? Should we ask that question? All right, I'm gonna go fetch. Okay. If I had continued my conversation with him alone as an individual session, we would be going deeper and deeper in the beautiful question that he asked. What does this cactus, him, offer to this watered plant, her? Or how does this cactus, him, fit in her garden, her lush garden? And we would be talking about shame, and we would be talking about self-worth, and we would be talking about rejection and we would be talking about

the challenge that he experiences as a Nigerian black man in America. In this case, because we're going to switch to a couple's conversation, I have to pick one theme or one primary theme and one that they can both come together to have a conversation so I have a moment to decide while I go to fetch her hello hi

okay ask her the question about the plants. Yeah, it feels like you have been watered. It feels like you and your associates, your friends, have all really enjoyed, you know, fertile soil and proper watering. And I feel like a succulent or even a cactus. And I wonder where that cactus fits in your garden. It's the only plant I think about in the garden. Truly.

If you want fertile soil, I want to be that. It's the only plan I think about in the garden. Truly. If you want fertile soil, I want it to be that. I just want you to stay. It just hurts so much when you leave, and it just feels like you... I don't leave because of you. I guess belonging isn't something that I've had or know how to have. I know I need help communicating these things.

And I don't mean to make you feel like it's on you or like it's personal. But I think I have such a visceral reaction sometimes because of how close you feel. To you? Yeah. And it feels bad? No.

It just feels really sensitive. You have like a window, you have an insight into how I came to be that no one else that I've dated does. You understand my upbringing and I've wanted the acceptance or the validation from my mother. I really live knowing that that might never happen. And it's made love really, really conditional. Do you think my love's conditional? I think all love is conditional. Say that again, but take the word conditional out of it.

Speak from how you feel rather than with the big words. My love for my mother was very... If I gain her disapproval, then she withdraws love. And so that's how I learned that transactional love is much easier. So I don't feel that again. I guess that's not really sustainable. It's not. I'm sorry for not telling you that it's not personal. I should have said that a while ago.

Why don't you ever say sorry? I feel like when I want to talk about it, you never want to talk about it. I almost feel like you think I deserve the treatment I'm getting from you, and that means I also don't deserve an apology. I missed this moment. As I'm listening to it now, it's like when he comes to her with a beautiful level of accountability and self-awareness and ownership over what he does,

and he tells her, it's not you, it's me. And it's at that moment that she struggles to receive this. And basically just to say, it's good to hear you say this. But she says, why don't you ever come and apologize to me? It's like, I want you to kiss me, I want you to kiss me. And then the person goes and kisses you. And then instead of saying, that feels good, I've been waiting for so long. I'm so glad this is happening.

I say, why don't you ever kiss me? And so she didn't let it land on her. And I didn't catch it fast enough. What treatment do you feel like you don't deserve? I feel like when we've had arguments and you yell at me and you tell me, you know, I can't do this with you or that I shouldn't ever call you again, I should never talk to you again. And these very big emotional reactions. And I even try to say, hey, I'm willing to take a break. Can we talk about it later? And you say, no, I never want to talk about it again. I don't want to talk to you. And

that's incredibly hurtful. I reel from those moments for days, for weeks. And then I see you again for some reason and and you act like nothing has happened and I I I'm still hurt I feel like you're just gonna hurt me again all the time because all the other hurts you you've never said anything about and then and and you've never said anything about. And you've told me before that, like... Let him tell you now. You've said a lot. Okay. I'm going to double you a little bit,

which means that I'm just going to be a voice inside your head, and sometimes I may say something, and if it feels right, you can repeat it in your own words. And if it doesn't, then you just change it. Okay? Okay. But you can start. Of course, we can talk about previous conversations.

But please understand that these aren't just sudden blow-ups. There are things that I feel that you want that if I'm not able to give them to you at that time, there's a pushing that happens.

What do you mean by pushing? I mean, if we're going back to the conversation right before your dad went back to the hospital. Do you remember how long our conversation took that night? Do you remember how I told you, I really want to end this conversation, but I understand that you haven't been satisfied with what I've said, so I'll continue conversing with you? And then two hours later, and then three hours later,

and there was a time where I said, I really have to end this conversation now with you being unfulfilled. And I feel that that visceral reaction comes when I am asked to do something that I clearly don't want to do at that time. And I think that there are ways and I can communicate that better for sure. At the end of the conversation, you said, I do not want to take this conversation inside. Then our conversation now transitioned to when can we have the conversation so we can finish it?

And you wouldn't answer that question. I feel like what happens a lot with us is that I don't get the direct communication. And I'm not getting it unless it's like a direct thing. So here is one thing I would like for you to understand about me. I don't have much experience asking for what I need in the context of a loving relationship. My experience is knowing what is expected of me in the hope that the love will follow. I have not had the practice of trusting that I can say I need this and the other person just to say, of course. Because I don't always know what is best for me

until I reach a point of no return. I don't know what is best for me until I reach a point where I know what is not good for me. And that's when the reaction and the shutting down happens. In that moment in time where I am frustrated and I do not want to talk anymore, the last thing that I'll probably answer truthfully is when can we have a follow-up conversation? So for me, I'm okay with reading time, but what I'm not okay with is it just being amorphous. What's really hard for me is just I don't know if I'm ever going to hear from him again or not. What's so interesting is how we both are basically expressing our fears.

I'm afraid that if I say I can't now, you're going to be upset. So I push myself to accommodate you till I can't do it anymore. And you're afraid that if I say, at that moment, of course, when I say I can't do it anymore, I say it with such urgency that I create the fear in you that I'm going to take a break that will never end.

Yeah. And so we both kind of scare each other. Is that it? Yeah, that's accurate for me. So here's the rule of disengagement. Yeah. You actually just have a real very personal code you can take her hand

you can place it here and you can say agitation 7 agitation 9 you know and it basically says I do want to but it's not going to be a good conversation yours is to say not now and yours is to accept it.

Yeah, I think what's been happening is I get never. But then you know what? If he ever says that to you, then I'm going to ask you to know, to interpret, that the part of him that says never is the part of him that is in control at that moment. Sometimes it takes a few days. So for you, when that part that says never has taken over, then there needs to be a voice inside of you that says, oh, the control tower has kicked in.

But I know my guy. It may take a few days sometimes. It's annoying. You don't have to like it. But I know how it works. I can do that. So what happens when he comes back? I just want to have the conversation.

Until now, it was presented that she had an idyllic relationship with the father that was very close, in which there was a very good repair system. But something about the way in which she experiences his shutdown, or his, I don't want to talk about this now, with a level of fear that he may never come back, tells me that there is more to explore about the nature of her attachment.

Here is one other thing that needs to happen. Her sentences are longer than yours. Her paragraphs are longer than yours. But if you say nothing, they become longer. That's the bizarre thing, is that you think, I'm going to stay quiet and wait until she's

done. But she will be done sooner if you let her know, I hear you. You don't have to sit and take it. And try not to explode and try to manage your breathing. It's getting shallower and shallower because you're waiting for the paragraph to end. The paragraph has a way of getting longer

the less it knows if it's being heard. It's the opposite. So the best thing you can say is, let me tell you what I hear, or I got it. But edit. Edit because that shows presence. You want to know the most important function of the cactus? Containing.

Containing. Your strength is in being a container. He was my container. You're the only person I actually cried to when my dad died. I didn't cry with anyone else. I didn't even cry on my own. But when you were with me, I felt like like I could I want you to be my container and I want you to hear me and I feel I feel like sometimes you don't hear me and hold on one sec you're doing something that's very... You say the beautiful thing, and then you say the opposite. In the same sentence. That's confusing.

When you say you were the only one, it felt so good. Period. Period. Don't put it in the same sentence. But when you're not... You were the only person I cried with. Not even by myself. I want you to be my container.

Just you. But we need to check if he likes the job description. I think I would love to be that. I think that's something that I'm very, that's a role that I'm very interested in. And I just want to know, I want to have the confidence that I can figure out the role that I need, that I would like for you to play in my life as well. And it is up to me to ask more so than for you to say,

okay, hey, this is what I want. What do you want? I'm not going to expect you to ask that, but I do. Hmm? You know what what go for it ask her to ask you she just said what means a lot to me is when you are that back and that you just offered me those hands hands that held me so that I could lean on you. It's actually a very beautiful request. And then you say, you know what would be an amazing exercise for me is if you ask me that question because I don't know that anybody's ever asked me that

and neither have I ever asked anyone to ask me. Yeah, please ask me about how you can fit into my life or how you can support me as well. That would mean a lot because I've been doing this on my own for so long. I think one thing that's made me so resistant is because it feels one-sided sometimes. Not so much that it is, it just feels that way. And I think I'm understanding now it's because you've been able to articulate what you want

or even better, you've had an example of what you want. And I haven't. So when you do come back, would you be able to say sorry? I don't know. If I feel it, I'll say it. But I want you to know that if I do leave, that I will come back. But what happens to the hurt that if I do leave, that I will come back.

But what happens to the hurt that's still there for me? How do we prepare that? I don't know. I'm telling you a way that it could. What I struggle with is you telling me how to fix your hurt. That's a real struggle for me. But tell me, when you say, if I am responsible for your hurt, then you're telling me that I'm the one who hurt you,

as if I deliberately hurt you, and I don't think I did. So there's a blame piece here that gets involved. I don't want to have to apologize because then it means I was the one who was wrong. Or malicious. Or malicious, yes. Intentionally hurtful. In my version of things, there's a way to just say, it's like if I step on your foot, I can say, oh, sorry, I hope I didn't hurt you. But I know that I didn't on purpose step on your foot. And I can hold both. I can understand that it was painful. And I also know it wasn't what I meant to do. So when I say I'm sorry, I'm not saying I'm bad, I'm wrong, I'm responsible. I'm just saying I hope you're okay.

Because of the conditional love system that you grew up in, that nuance wasn't a part of it. You say, I'm sorry because you're wrong. You don't say, I'm sorry because you care about the other person's feelings without being wrong about anything. Aren't those very different I'm sorries? That's right. By the way, I don't think that's the only way to repair.

But that's the one she learned with her father, and it was easy on her. But that meant she may have to learn a different system. And in your book, there is only one. So it may not be that you say, I'm sorry. You may find other words that just say, come back. Or I'm here. Or how you doing?

It could even be, I didn't mean to hurt you. Anything. But just moving past it as if it never happened. I need... But that's your interpretation. He doesn't think he's passing as if it never happened. That is, you have decided that if that ritual of I'm sorry isn't a part of it, then it's as if everything that preceded was okay.

No. It's true. If you asked me to acknowledge, I think I would have acknowledged way before you're asking me to be sorry. I think Esther said, well, I don't say I'm sorry. I am sorry. Like, I feel sorry. And sorry from you goes with the intentionality of hurting.

Truly. So the sorry piece isn't going to go well for him at this moment. But there's a bunch of other ways too. Yeah, yeah. You literally just said you just want me to acknowledge the fact that I stepped on your foot. That's absolutely something. Three hours have just passed in full speed to me it feels like we're just beginning but we need to find a way to bring this together as the session is ending I'm listening to both of you. And you're a new couple that brings tremendous resources and joy and also a lot of loss.

You have a lot of layers to uncover between the two of you. I think that everybody has things they need to work out when it comes to relationships. Everybody. She too, even though she comes from a very good background. And for me, it's not, will you be dealing with these things at some point? It's with whom. And if you want to know when conflict occurs,

is when you experience what he says as criticism and he experiences what you say as demands and expectations and pressure. And then it's those having a conversation with each other. Correct. So if I can work on feeling like it's not critical, can you work on what I say feeling like it's not a demand? If I want to. Yes, yes. When she says that, you receive it as an invitation or it's one more job on my plate?

It's not even a job. It feels like I don't have the space to come up with my own thing to work on. Okay, I'm going to work on this. Are you going to work on that? I'm like, okay, you can just say what you're going to work on and I'll come up with what I want to work on. Then say that. Like you just did. Then say that.

Like you just did. It's okay. You know, when she says it to you, I know how you hear it. But the way she really says it is, I want to give it my best. Will you? It's not that she wants to tell you what you should do. It's the same as when she wants you to say I'm sorry. It's not because she thinks you did it. It's because she wants to know that you

care about the fact that she was upset. Say it in any way you want. Buy her a flower. It doesn't matter. She doesn't want you to come on your knees. She wants to know you care. And that's the place where you meet. You both hear criticism.

You both hear, you know. So this is practice. It's about being direct and kind. And hold your ground. Without disconnecting and shutting down. Because she wants to do it right. It's not like she wants to just impose on you. But he's not your dad and she's not your mom. Thank you. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Eva Walchover, Destry Sibley, Huwete Gatana, Sabrina Farhi, Eleanor Kagan, Kristen Muller, and Julianne Atten.

Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, Jen Marler, and Jack Saul.