Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - My Hero Complex

Episode Date: June 29, 2026

When his ex calls in the middle of a crisis, he finds himself pulled back into a familiar role: the rescuer. He's always been the one women confide in, the one who steps up, the one who proves he's a good man by making sure no one falls apart on his watch. It’s a hero complex he wears easily. If he’s needed, he feels powerful. If he’s not, he feels invisible. He’s the strong one, the reliable one, and yet he rarely asks for help himself. Can he be loved not just for what he gives, but for who he is? Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [e-mail]. Producer’s Note: When our anonymous guests do a session with Esther for the podcast, it is an act of generosity for everyone who listens. These sessions are meant not only to support the people in the room with Esther, but all of us who learn from their stories. Our stories have many chapters, and what you hear is just one moment in someone’s journey. So even though the sessions are anonymous, please remember that real people are behind them and they may be reading your comments. Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello. Hello, Esther. Hi, hi, hi. What were you thinking just now before I came on camera? You were very pensive. This is my first therapy session ever, so I was kind of wondering what to expect. So this is an initiation. Yes, and I'm apparently doing it with the best or the best.

Where are you calling from? I'm calling from Nairobi, Kenya. Uh-huh. And what was your question? It was about maybe understanding the concept of a hero complex. Quite recently, a next girlfriend of mine called me out of the blue. We hadn't talked in two years. and she calls me and the first words she uttered as were

her life is falling apart and that she's having suicidal thoughts and that she had just gone through a breakup and she was going through an abortion and the reason why she says she called me is because in her own words the pain she was experiencing the only time she can remember experiencing that kind of pain was when we broke up, and we broke up around two years, three years ago now.

And the reason why I ask about the hero complex is because, I guess maybe some history between us, we met each other in college. I guess you could call it with trauma-bonded when we were only talking and we hadn't started dating yet. She would tell me about how she had come from a broken childhood. Essentially, how her parents did not have a good dynamic. Her father was abusive to her mother. Her mother was an alcoholic. And I think a month or two months before that,

I had just found out my father was having an affair. And that was crushing for me because my father was a hero to me. And the reason why I say maybe with trauma pointed, she's the only person I've ever told that, not even my closest male friends not my siblings not anyone close to me not even my mom

she's the only one I told about the situation going on so you each opened up to each other yes and confided in each other things you hadn't shared with anyone else yes

and then and then I guess we developed a connection a bond. And then as we continued talking, she will tell me about how her ex-boyfriends did not treat her rights. She would tell me about how her previous ex-boyfriends were either maybe abusive or just not good to her. And so I think combining the two stories, the stories she had told me from her childhood and the stories she was telling me about her current life. I want to say I felt sorry for her. There's this emotion I felt.

Yes, the best way to explain it is I felt sorry for her. And I guess a part of me wanted to prove to her that the wild is not all doom and gloom. I wanted to rescue her. I guess. That's the hero. I wanted to rescue her. I wanted to show her that they are good men. I wanted to show her that it's not one man who mistreats you,

who should be the representative of the whole species. I wanted to make her feel good and loved and precious. Yes. Actually, looking back, the entire mission in that relationship was to make her happy. Nothing else. We have to take a brief break. So, stay with us. and let's see where this goes.

And is that the first woman I've been wanting to do that with? In a relationship, yes. And at home? She was actually also my first relationship. Right. But you have wanted to make another woman happier? Yes. I guess I also have friends around me that I keep around me

because especially female friends that I know their situations, or their ex-boyfriends and maybe I have an idea of what went wrong and I kind of want the best of my ability to protect them. Yes, I want them to be happy. So I keep them around

even after they have broken up with my friends and, yeah. Have you wanted, I mean, especially because of what you told about your dad, Have you been invested in making your mom happy? Not actively, I would say. Just the normal dynamic between mother and son. I can't pinpoint any instances where I was maybe out to make her happy.

So I wouldn't say that now. But inside? Yes. You've been watching her for many years and you wish you could. Yes. My father travels a lot for work. So growing up, it was really just me, my brothers and my mother. So I guess I knew at the time he always had to be at work.

And so when he would come home, maybe once a week or months every two weeks, we will be okay with it because we know he's out working, he's out providing for the family. And that was okay with us. So we essentially grew up with my mom. He was there when he could be. But growing up, I thought they had a good relationship. I looked up to him.

It was my hero. Are you close to her? To who? To mom? No. Not really. I would say we have a lack of a better at a professional relationship. We are not close.

And part of your question is. to me is I wish I could understand more this need of mine to save women, to rescue them, to capture these broken birds, these broken wings, and to show them, what did you say? The world is not just doom and gloom. and I don't fully understand why I have that feeling, but I know it's very strong inside of me. Yes. Is that your question?

Yes, especially right now, I am not sure how to do because I guess, yes, I want to make her happy, especially right now. She's going through something. But I do not want to fall back into the habit of, making the entire relationship with the dynamic between us about making her happy. I want to be friends. I really want to be friends with her.

But I guess I want to be real friends, not just friends where she calls me when she's in pain. I want to experience a true friendship with her, now that the relationship fell apart. Yes, and I don't know what to do. I don't know whether to contact her. I don't know whether to stay away because some part of me feels like I'm being mused just emotionally. I want the perfect optimum outcome, which will be, I want us to be real friends where she's healthy, I am healthy and we can both be healthy. But considering our past, especially how we met, it was a time of pain for her. and I can't help think this is a habit

now that she's also in another period of pain for herself that is the only person she could reach out instinctively was me if she was not going through her pain, maybe not. Are you left wondering, is there something about me that makes people come when they are in trouble or in crisis and they need me? And somehow I often feel that they reach out when they need me, me, but that's not the same as when they love me.

Yes. I would like to say it's a gift. People open up to me when we talk for the very first time. I've met people, and within 15 minutes of meeting them, they were opening about situations in their lives. So they come to me, though, when they have a crisis. They come to me when things are not well, but then when things are fine. that's not when they stay with me.

That's what becomes challenging to me. I'm more than happy to be available when people go through a rough time, but it seems that people will come to me because I'm a good nurse. And I wish that they would come to me because I'm a good playmate, and I'm a good boyfriend, and I'm a good lover,

and I'm a good person to have fun with, not just to afloat on. Yes. I'd like for them to come to me when they're happy as well. I would like to share in the happiness. Yes. Yes. And because when they don't, then what, how am I left feeling?

When they only come or when they predominantly come, when there's a crisis or a problem, then I feel what? Used. I feel like I'm being used. And the moment maybe they are happy or not going through, depending they are going through anymore, they will not call me or contact me again. And then I feel what?

I feel sad and used. I think the word is used. I'm happy to be there. I'm happy to be there. But you're with me for what I can give to you and not for who I am. Yes. You're taking advantage of what I can offer you and what I can do for you. But I don't feel that you really are with me for who I am.

Yes, I guess my question is whether, for example, if she was happy and maybe having a kid, I don't know, maybe, would she have called me, would she have told me the good news that she's having a child? Would she have, would I have never heard from her again? I guess is the question I'm asking. All right. But the question is also, how do I change that? How do I not participate in inviting and encouraging women that come to me to share their crisis or their hardships? Yes.

Because I don't say no. No, most much. So with her, I appreciate that you called me, that you feel that you can talk to me and that I am a reliable friend. I find it slightly difficult that you seem to really think of me and call me only when things are bad, when things go sour. I somehow don't appear in your life to share the good stuff only. when the wind blows in the wrong direction. I thought about putting it that way, but when she mentioned that she was in a suicidal state,

I thought maybe the best cause of action is just to calm the waters for now, make sure she's okay, make sure she's happy, make sure she's laughing, make sure she's not in a state when she leaves the phone call where she goes through with maybe her darker thoughts. So that's something I would love to talk to her about. What makes it compelling for you when people come to share their suffering? I think of it as a gift. I like the fact that people can tell me anything,

not just maybe when they're in pain, even their secrets and people just talk to me. I guess that's how it put it. People talk to me. and I like it. Problem is when they tell me about how maybe the pain they're going through. A lot of times because of how maybe I embrace them, it quickly devolves into a romantic attachment on their part

and maybe not necessarily the same on my part. So I kind of have to also wiggle out of that situation as well, but oftentimes ends up badly. Say that again. It devolves into a romantic situation on their part. Yes. Sometimes when they open up to me and we continue talking, they quickly delve into maybe an attachment

because maybe I was there, I embraced them. And because I'm not there with them, it kind of falls apart because I guess they're expecting something from me. Maybe they caught an idea that because of how embracing I was, that maybe I'd be someone they'd like to be with, but I just don't understand it. That's why I wanted to understand the concept of a hero complex to maybe put these pieces together.

But there's two parts. There is, in fact, there's more than two. There is the part of you that says, I feel privileged when women and men, male, friends to open up to me. I feel honored, I feel privileged. But it turns. From feeling privileged, it turns of feeling used. It's as if they come when I can give them something. But when they don't need anything, they go have fun with others. So they get romantically attached when I'm taking care of them. They come to be taken care of. But it's as if

they want me in the role of the nurse, in the role of the counselor, in the role of the coach. But they don't really see me as the boyfriend, as the person they can develop a relationship with. The moment they are better, they go back to others, others who are way less nice than me. why is it that a nice guy doesn't get to experience the full relationship and they go back to all these people I know my friends included

who don't always treat them that nicely yeah we have to take a brief break stay with us support for where should we begin comes from Shopify starting a business can feel overwhelming

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not gravitate to someone that I feel like meets me. Because I should say maybe when we started dating, I mean, with my ex-girlfriend, there was also another person in my life at the time. She was happy and healthy, as I would put it. And I said no. I actively said no, two healthy ones. And went to the one I felt attached to when we shared about our past. And how do you understand it?

I like being needed, maybe. I like how I made her happy when we were together. I like how I could see a change. I could really see a change when she was with me. And that really gave me a dopamine hit. I would feel so happy. And the reason why I said that was, my mission was to make her happy is because sometimes even when I was going through something,

I would actively not share it with her because I did not want to burden her. So her happiness especially for me was my soul mentioned I had so much joy in it for feeling but it wasn't sustainable For whom? For me I wanted to move on But why?

It's not sustainable because what? I start to resent it I start to wonder will there ever be space for me I start to feel like it's a lot of responsibility to be in a caretaking role like that I start to wonder if I wasn't there helping you

would you still be with me any of the above if I wasn't helping would you still be there sometimes we have a hero complex or a rescue fantasy because we were

able to rescue someone in an other part of our life, often in our childhood. Sometimes because we were not able to rescue, often a parent in our childhood. And sometimes we have a rescue fantasy because it has to do with our sense of self-worth. I feel that people come to me when they need me because I can do something for them. But I don't know if they would come to me just because they fancy me. There may be others, but these are two main ones. Is it possible for me to fall out of the habit of wanting to save people? Which one of the two resonated most?

That is the first one. That I didn't get to rescue someone? Or I rescued someone and I liked it. And that's this girl? Yes. Or there was somebody before? This, especially this. So, when?

When I see how much I can help someone and how I can lift them and how I can switch their spirit, it gives me a tremendous sense of joy, a tremendous sense of power, a tremendous sense of confidence, and it makes me think that they of course would want to be with me because I'm doing these wonderful things for them. But then when things get better and they move on, then it completely turns on itself. And from feeling joyful in my generosity, I start to feel used and taken advantage of and bereft and extracted.

Does that describe it? Yes. I would find so much joy in making a happy. And I felt like I was doing something. But then when everyone is happy, I guess I wonder where are my place is. So I want to be good. I want to share the happiness. Do you have the same split with your friends?

My friends, I would say we have a good dynamic, especially my male friends. I will say it's a good relationship. How would they describe you? smart good advice a good friend a good friend when they need me up there

and do you ever need them I would say need no I like being self-sufficient like being my own person so maybe need no

want yes but need no and say that's a touch too far. Yeah, attached too far. I make sure to be in relationships where other people need me, so I never need to need them. Yes, I guess.

I will be self-sufficient. I will rely on myself. I will not allow myself to depend on anyone. I'm not sure I trust anybody would be as available as I can be for them. And so I turned the whole thing on its head. My friends call me I really call them

it's not anything malicious but I guess that's just how it is but if you want to feel less used you're going to have to dare turn this around and you can start with your friends when the stakes are lower

meaning you're going to call them you're going to practice calling your friends you're going to practice you do the reverse. You just go to them when you're happy and when you're struggling you keep it to yourself.

Yes, essentially, yeah. It's the opposite of what you say the women do with you. But you have good friends, right? You have long-standing friends. Yes. Okay. You can tell them you call this strange woman

in New York and she put you on to an assignment You know, she said, if you want to stop feeling used, you have to dare be vulnerable to others. Okay. Doesn't mean they have to go because you're suicidal or because you just have the biggest crisis in your life. You just go when the sky is cloudy.

I think it would transform your friendships too. How do I allow myself to trust them? Ah. A bit of this is a trial and error. A bit of this is you start with the friends that you think are the most trustworthy. A bit of this is you start with something that is not of mega proportions, just something small. And a bit of this is that you don't expect not to feel any vulnerability or any fear, because you will

and because you have zero practice, you've not done it. Your father is gone much of the time and you see him as a hero because you think he takes care of everything himself. With your mom, you have a professional relationship,

as you call, which is an amazing choice of words. And then you crave a certain kind of intimacy. Yes. But your friends don't know that. Your male friends in particular don't know that. Do you have female friends too or mostly male friends?

Mostly male friends. Right. And that's a reflection on you or on your culture? Just me. I have some family friends, some very close friends. Uh-huh. But I'd say my best friends, male friends. From childhood, from early on, of old.

or from college? From college. Some of my friends from childhood moved away. I don't get to see them that much, but from college, yes. My friends are here, some have moved away, some have moved to the UK abroad elsewhere. But yeah, I'm still here. So how does one start to let other people be there for you?

Here are five things, right? You pick wise, you pick the people who you think you really are more trustworthy and you can, you know they're not going to use it. You pick something that isn't the most big and significant, but you use something that you know you don't typically share. You practice, which means you don't expect it to feel good and fantastic on the first time. You do a trial and error and you tweak it every time. You let them take care of you and you let yourself live.

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Try Quo for free plus get 20% off your first six months when you go to Quo.com slash begin. That's QUO.com slash begin. In relationships, I often think that there are a few key verbs. one is to ask how do you feel about asking do you know to ask do you trust that when you ask people will respond

do you know what to ask or are you so busy knowing what other people feel and need that you don't really know what you want asking giving how do you feel about giving do you enjoy giving

yeah I don't do you Some people enjoy giving, some people give sometimes in order not to owe, in order to acquit themselves of a debt, in order not to feel guilty about taking. There's a lot of different feelings around the experience of giving. And then there is receiving, which is often the most vulnerable of them all. Can you let others give to you? Can you experience the vulnerability of receiving the fear,

of losing people, the surrender that goes into receiving, the trust that is required to receive. And then there is taking. When you feel used, you feel other people are taking from you. You don't feel they're giving to you. And you don't even feel giving to them anymore. Like when you enjoy seeing them uplifted and you feel the joy of making them happy. once you start to feel used, that is gone. And then there is the verb to refuse, to say no. Just part of what you're asking vis-à-vis this girl. What's my yes and what's my no?

You can't really say yes if you can't really say no. And then there is imagining and sharing and wanting. There's a few other verbs, but those are the main ones. Is it as easy as asking you to give me directions, I guess, for lack of a bit of a lot. Should I contact her or not? Should you contact her or not? You can contact her and at the same time say

more than one thing. I care deeply and I also need you to know there's something about when you choose to reach out to me that doesn't feel really good. I sometimes end. I also did this a lot when we were dating. I would spare the truth. in order not to hurt her feelings.

So even now, while I know what I should say to are, I do not want to do it because I might hurt her. Right. But you know what that means? It means that I don't truly believe that my feelings actually matter. I feel like I need to cater. I need to placate. I need to accommodate.

I need to please to assure that people will be with me. And I certainly don't need to impose with any of my own issues. But underneath lies the belief that my feelings, needs, wishes, fears don't really have a place to go. So if you did something very different with this situation, what would it be? What's the thing you would actually want to do, but you're afraid to do? I would call her and tell her I want to be friends I want us to be friends

but I also want to experience a healthy you I want to experience happy you you when everything is going okay when everything is going right when you are happy I am jealous of whoever you call

when you have good news because it's not me yes and I would call her and tell her I hope in future we can't be friends, but in a healthy dynamic. Do you think she'll be open to that, or do you think she'll say thank you

and you won't hear from her again? I don't think I would hear from her again. And that's okay with you? At this point, yes. I am okay with however it pans out. I am putting myself first. I am okay with however it pans out. Yes.

Is that the first? Yeah, because it actually feels so cool, doing it. Uh-huh, uh-huh. Right, okay. So you've got your first step? Should I call her first or should I reach until she reaches out? Doesn't matter. She called you, right?

Yes. Okay, so you call her back? It doesn't matter. That's the kind of questions that keep people ruminating but not doing anything. You call her back, you say it was very nice. nice to hear from you. I'm so sorry, da-da-da-da-da. And I wanted to tell you something that's been on my mind.

I have a habit of waiting for people to call me. So I guess that might also be another hurdle, I guess. But I also think that you want to practice it with some of your close friends. It's safer, too. Okay. I almost want to say culturally it's not quite common but I'm a grown-up and I can make such decisions from opening up to my friends.

But your friends come to you? Yes, they do. So then there's culturally nothing, we're not doing culturally anything transgressive here. It's not like you're going for therapy to your friends. You're just telling them when it's available. You don't have to manufacture something. But you practice asking others, relying on others, needing others.

Part of why you taught yourself not to need anything is because your dad was gone all the time. Yes, I have a negative reaction to the word need, but I think rely. I think RELAI another's. You prefer Rely. Okay. All right. I'll happily change the word for you.

Need brings up too much abandonment and unavailability, whereas Relyi feels a little gentler. We can switch. You welcome. Yes. Thank you. How is this conversation? I like it.

it's helping me put some things into perspective. It's helping reinforce some of the decisions that I was maybe second-guessing or doubting. So, yeah, like I said, standing up for myself, feels new, feels awkward, and because it's something I have to learn to do. Standing up for yourself and at the same time being kind. It's both hand, you know.

Sometimes my friend Terry Reel often says, men are often caught between either being powerful or connected, but they can't be both at the same time. Which are you choose? Both. I think you go to the contrary. My invitation is for you to experience both at the same time. You can be kind and connected and you can be powerful

and make your point. Will you let me know what happened? Yes, I will. Thank you. You're welcome. This was an Astaire calling, a one-time intervention phone call, recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Astaire, could be answered in a 40- or 50-minute phone call.

Send her a voice message, and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producer at esteraparelle.com. Where should we begin with Estre? Esther Perel is produced by magnificent noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network, in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi,

Kristen Muller, and Julian Hat. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of where should we begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.