Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - Questions You Aren't Allowed to Ask

Episode Date: October 28, 2024

This is a classic session of Where Should We Begin?, but might still be new to many of you. What began as an eight-year affair between two women has stretched into a 19-year partnership. But despite their private commitment to one another, they’ve never quite managed to move beyond the shame of their origin story. Esther takes a novel approach to revealing a long-held secret. If you have an individual question you would like to talk through with Esther, please send a voice memo to [e-mail]. If you would like to apply for a couples session with Esther, please click here: https://bit.ly/40fGHIU. Esther’s two new courses on desire are now available inside The Desire Bundle. Go to https://www.estherperel.com/course-bundles/the-desire-bundle to learn more about Bringing Desire Back and Playing with Desire. Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter" Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

19 years ago, it's not like today. It's cool now to be gay or curious or whatever it is you are. But back then it was really shameful. What you are about to hear is a classic session of Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel. None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel's. And each episode is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed,

but their voices and their stories are real. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Autograph Collection Hotels. Autograph Collection Hotels offer over 300 independent hotels around the world, each exactly like nothing else. Hand-selected for their inherent craft, each hotel tells its own unique story through distinctive design and immersive experiences, from medieval falconry to volcanic wine tasting. Autograph Collection is part of the Marriott Bonvoy portfolio of over 30 hotel brands around the world. Find the unforgettable at autographcollection.com.

On Criminal, we bring you true crime stories told by the people who know them best. Like the story of a man who tried to hunt down a ghost in 1803. He fired his gun at it. And at that point, you saw the ghost collapse in a heap. A couple that bought a haunted house. I closed my eyes, pulled the covers up. And the next thing I know, somebody's sitting on my feet. And a woman who has tried for witchcraft in the 1940s.

And I said, I doubt that my grandmother is a threat to national security. She's been dead for so many years. I'm Phoebe Judge. Listen to Criminal on Amazon Music. We've been now 19 years together, and I still struggle with saying I'm gay. Holding hands in public, like, it still bothers me. It's always kind of felt like she's been ashamed of me or our relationship. This is a couple that is organized around a secret. You know, my thought was not to get divorced and then the next day have her, like, move into the house.

She said, I don't want him going out the front door and you coming in the back. A secret means I can't talk about this thing. But then I can't talk about the next thing because it could lead back to this thing. And so it starts to grow inside a family and it becomes a code of conduct. I walk on eggshells around her because she has a lot of frustration with me.

We have no sexual relationship at all and haven't for a long time. And there's just a lot of resentment and guilt. Shame and secrecy are among the more corrosive elements of a relationship and of a family. And it is time for some of the secrecy and some of the silencing to be removed. This is Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel. I was married and I have two kids and we met 10 plus years into my marriage and then we

were friends for probably almost a year and you that way for a long time, for seven, eight years. I kind of was a soccer mom, you know, living in the suburbs with kids. Can I plead cultural ignorance for one moment? Sure. What's a soccer mom? Oh, so my kids both played soccer. So like every Saturday I'd be at the soccer fields and I'd be involved just in all their activities and be with all the other moms. A soccer mom is a woman who has forgotten that she's a woman and she's only a mother? I think just that kids are a huge part, right?

So, like, all their activities in school. So she's a mom? Yeah. Okay. And then our relationship was kind of like the download kind of thing. Like, it was like two lives. I was living for a really long time, balancing wanting to make everybody happy. So, like, keeping my ex-husband and kids happy

and then keeping her happy and feeling very guilty because of what I was doing. Still you are. Yeah, no, there's a lot of guilt. He never knew, but he probably knew. And eventually he said that he was ready to separate and get a divorce. And as soon as he gave me that out, I took it. You know, my thought was not to get divorced and then the next day have her, like, move into the house.

Like, I wanted to be able to. She said, I don't want him going out the front door and her move into the house. I wanted to be able to... She said, I don't want him going out the front door and you coming in the back. Yeah. But you had already come through the front door. And the back. For eight years. Yeah.

And every other window. You were inhabiting this house in every place. Yes. Why suddenly the pretense? I think I was just trying to justify in my head that I wasn't getting divorced for her. I was getting divorced because I wasn't in love with him anymore. Explain the difference for me.

What would it represent to say, I don't love my husband anymore? And what would it represent to say, I love this woman? I just had a lot of guilt and a lot of shame and I think I still do to this day. Would it be different if this was a man? Um yeah probably a little bit. More shame, less shame, different shame? Probably, well, probably about the same. I mean, hindsight's kind of 20-20 that I did realize that I was attracted to women. You know, I got married very young.

When you look back, do you think there was a part of you that sought to seal, to conceal even from yourself, a part of you that was very scary. And that if you went with all the accoutrements of the sanctioned official life that you were meant to have, then somehow you'd forget about yourself as a woman and your sexuality and your attractions? Probably, yes.

Like, I didn't ever question, even in college or anything, I just... Some questions are not allowed. It wasn't anything I thought about. I just, I kind of did what I was supposed to do, kind of thing. There may have been personal and familial reasons for why she had to hide, but clearly there was also a very strong message in society that set her up for the shame and for the hiding about her sexuality. And so our survival strategies are adaptations to a reality. It's just that when we continue doing the same 20 years later,

when our reality has completely shifted, then our strategy is no longer adaptive. She stuck around and waited for me until I was ready. Eight years, that's a long time waiting. I know. And I just, I still have such a hard time with that. It just was a long time of lying.

So a part of you still experiences a lot of conflicts about your origins together. Mm-hmm. Yes. And until the origin story can be retold, you will always feel compromised when you think about the future.

Yes, probably, yes. I should finish with a question mark. It's not a statement, it's a question. But you talk about the origin story as if it was yesterday. It still bothers me. I have a hard time even, we've been now 19 years together and I still struggle with saying I'm gay, saying, you know, holding hands in public.

Like I just, and it's all me i know it's it's me it's just i don't know i just and then i tell people like i have two great girls and they're happy and successful and they have no problem saying my mom is gay um we never you know i've had i had initial conversations with them way back when you moved in and and that just never really came up again it was like you know the older one was surprised she thought I was just best friend for her long eight years until she yes but now now they know I mean now they oh yeah but we just it's just not something we talked about but I mean they, now they know. I mean, now they, but we just, it's just not something we talk about, but I mean, they know and they know that. But the younger one, she was okay because she went to school with triplets that had two moms.

But she, I think they don't consider, I mean, I guess they do like a, like a mom. I don't know okay so so far she says I me my my house my kids there's not a lot of plurality in any of it you noticed oh well yeah so for the whole eight years that he waited he was at work or he was at school or he was doing whatever, and I would be over doing homework. We'd eat dinner. I'd read books. I'd tuck him in. I did all that stuff.

The younger one will say to me now, for example, happy other mother's day. And I'm like, yes, I have a title. I'm another mother. I love them like they're mine. And they have never known how to call you because you have actually never been named by you. Right. What's happening is there's a part of you that is conflicted. And so you don't talk about certain things. And you think that if you don't talk about them, they don't exist. So you've never talked about who you are with your ex-husband.

You've never talked to your daughters. And I could imagine if I speak with them, they'll tell me, you know, my mom lives with her girlfriend, she's a lesbian couple, it's a non-issue for them. But since you've never given them the authorization, things remain unnamed. And then you create this interesting question of what makes a mother?

The person who gives birth or the person who parents them? At what point do you actually become a parent, a mother? And the name is one thing, the meaning is something else. And the meaning is what conveys the legitimacy of the relationship. And in a way, your partner has been in a crisis of legitimacy from the moment she met you. You've never really officialized her. Yes. And I think the one who needs officializing is you. It's like you need a coming out ceremony at 50. You know, it's your bat mitzvah. I feel like, though, I would have to tell the full story to my girls very

few people know about the eight years you know and everybody's in a good place like he's happy think now that everybody's in a good place you've got a woman is sitting right next to you who is not in enough of a good place neither are you for that matter I think about the girls. And I feel like if I was to tell them... You think they haven't answered the question, what was this woman doing in their house all the years before?

I don't know. I mean, yes... No, no, it's because you are in such denial that you attribute the same denial to them. Yeah. I'm not saying you attribute the same denial to them. Yeah. I'm not saying you should go and tell them anything yet. But you have a story in your head that anything that moves would lead you to the big revelation of your debauchery of eight years to your daughters. And then you get into a panic attack,

and then you choke, as you're doing right now, and then the story and the conversation is over. And so this is clogged. Yes. I've always been so concerned about what other people think about me that I want everybody to just be happy happy and I feel like if I don't may I interject you ask her may I interject sure are you the expert on her history no I just wanted to throw a little so for example when her father's been in the hospital, he doesn't tell her until he's home.

Like nothing bad ever happens until it's fixed already. I had breast cancer at age 40 and has still never told my father. I even didn't tell my girls until after I kind of knew what was going to happen. I feel like why worry him or anybody because I have I have her and she was there and took amazing care of me. That is the way you talk to yourself day in day out. Yeah. And in the course of not talking about that you talk about nothing and you've never even been able to say I had a love story. Your thought is I cheated on my husband for eight years and I feel terrible. But there's also I had this woman who I

loved dearly and who waited for me and I couldn't believe that she stuck around and it's been the biggest gift in my life. So that gets banned too. Yeah. It's hard to tell a story that doesn't make you feel good, that I feel shameful for. Pieces of it. Pieces of it. So you need to learn to incorporate in your story pieces for which you have deep regret, pieces for which you apologize, pieces for which you ever go to your ex and you tell him what I did back then was terrible.

And you own your shit. Yeah. You own the pieces for which you feel remorse, regret, shame, so that you can turn the shame into responsibility and then free yourself. And then you can also claim the other parts of the story that are beautiful. Mm-hmm.

I know. That makes a lot of sense. We're going to practice a couple. Your story is a rich, multi-layered story. And we never get to see its full colors because you take the few things for which you feel bad about, and then it bans everything. So your daughters live with secrets, your ex-husband has never been spoken to,

you can't touch in public, you can't say what you are. She never gets a proper name. The affair may be over, but it's a kind of a clandestine living. What I decide to do is to have the therapy room become the safe space to have the conversations that she has never had, to hear herself say out loud that which she has never dared to say. The mere thought of having to talk about any of this brings up tremendous anxiety and panic for her. It is so painful. But the fact is that her panic creates

a rejection of her partner. I am working on the couple and I am working on how her internal feelings affect the relationship, not just how they affect her. That's the difference. We'll be back with a session right after this. And while we love our sponsors, if you want to listen to this session ad-free, click the try free button to subscribe to Astaire's Office Hours on Apple Podcasts. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Masterclass. These days, you can find the answer to pretty much any question you have by searching the internet. But information is not the same as wisdom. If you really want to learn from some of the greatest minds of our time, look no further than Masterclass.

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healthfully, and sustainably. Right now, you can get an additional 15% off any annual membership at masterclass.com slash begin. That's 15% off at masterclass.com slash begin. Masterclass.com slash begin. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Quince. It's officially the season of Hercule Durkling. That's a Scottish term for lounging in bed well into the morning. It's a wonderful and luxurious way to start the day, but it won't feel that way if your sheets are scratchy, worn out or irritating. Queen's makes soft, high-quality sheets ready for your lounging.

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their team of seasoned cyber experts is ready 24 hours a day, 365 days a year for support. Now you can bring enterprise-level expertise without needing a massive IT department. Huntress can empower your business as they have done for over 125,000 other businesses. Let them handle the hackers so you can focus on what you do best. Visit huntress.com to start a free trial or learn more. You with me? I am. You breathing? I am. Yes. So, your ex-husband. Okay. Name him. Call him John. It's just a simple name. Simple guy. I'm going to put John in this chair. Okay. Name him. Just call him John. It's just a simple name. Simple guy. I want to put John in this chair.

Okay. I want you to see him. Sit there. Okay. So, my dear John, this is so uncomfortable to be talking to you but you cannot imagine how many conversations I've had in my head with you. I'm going to say this.

In your own words, yes. This is very uncomfortable for me and I've had this conversation with you in my head numerous times because you deserve to know the truth but the truth is about what I did or the truth is about how sorry I am that I

hurt you or that I neglected you or that I stopped being your wife or yeah I mean that the truth is all that it's that you deserve better than what I was giving you, and I was very selfish, and I didn't want to hurt him. But I know I did. But I definitely know I did. And I really want to own that one so that I can set you free and me. I just need to apologize for letting it go so long

and for not being honest. I owe you that. I owe you that for you and for the sake of the girls. I don't know if I could apologize enough. I don't know if that would make him happy, I think. You're not apologizing to make him happy. You are apologizing to do the right thing

he knew long before you and he stayed friends with you and he stayed friends with your partner you can tell him about how much you appreciate that he didn't send you to the wolves yes absolutely yeah you're feeling bad isn't going to make him happy one iota. You're telling him how much you appreciate what he has done over these decades that May. Do you know the difference? Yeah, I do know the difference. And I agree that he needs to know that I do appreciate.

You want to say it to him one more time? I appreciate your being patient with me and you've been a friend to me even after all of this. And I also appreciate that you never judged my love for my woman. That you never judged my love. my woman. He never judged my love. I don't know. I'm sorry and I hope you're happy because I want,

that's really what I want, is for you to be happy. Thank you for everything and being yourself. And never shaming me for being gay. you for everything and being yourself and... And never shaming me for being gay. Yeah, and never shaming me for being who I am.

Gonna name it. For being gay. You never made me feel bad for that. One of the consequences of dissociation over many many years is to be detected in the affect that people bring to what they feel and to what they say. Whether she says I'm sorry, whether she says I fell in love, whether she says I want you to be happy. It all is said with the same affect. And that similarity of unitonal voice is quite telling as the long-term consequence of dissociation. And how are you doing right now?

I mean, I'm glad I can say that to him because he deserves that. I need to be pushed because... I hope it's okay because that's what I'm doing. Yes. From one to ten, how much of your comfort zone are we now? I was pretty up there, eight or nine. I would love to ask you what it was like to hear, and I'm going to first tell you how admiring I am of your patients, and then I will ask you. But we're going to keep her in her stretch zone for a bit longer. Okay? Yeah. Are you enjoying this?

Maybe that's not the right way. I don't know how to answer that because if I'm enjoying it, I am. No, I think it's very important. Good. The girls. Yes, the girls. Who you've been thinking are ensnared in your secret and who are probably waiting to receive the permission to finally talk to you but they can't talk to you because you've given them the message that you can't talk about

any of this and so this is about undoing the legacy of a secret but also about who you are and yeah how they could get to know you better and then hopefully you would get to know them better here they are I mean I would just tell them that I they right here. I want to tell you the story. I mean I want to tell you the story of us and what really happened and you know I met her when you guys were little and she was part of your life as a friend and as a surrogate parent and was there to help to raise you really and then it it became more than a friendship and what does that mean it became more than a friendship what did it become well I fell in love and and it was more intimate it was more there's a connection that I really never had with anybody else and a freedom that I never had before and I felt more myself than I I had but I but I still

struggled with you know no no before you go to the struggle if you describe only your inner tumult. It doesn't explain enough why you did all of what you did. One dismantles the whole family because there is something more powerful and more compelling that demands it. That is a legacy with which they can do something. A level of truth to yourself, a level of truth to your feelings, A level of truth to yourself, a level of truth to your feelings,

a level of truth to your heart. Part of why you are resentful all the time, not all the reasons, but part of it, is because you are angry with her as if she represents the secret that you cannot unveil. Yeah, that's probably very true. Every time you look at her, you feel guilty and ashamed, and she's become the representation

of that dark, abjected part of you. And the story of a love story, story of I felt more free, more true, more turned on, has disappeared. Yeah. So you can't be sexual either, you can't touch her either, everything becomes stifled. Keep going.

During the time of us being together, I realized about myself that although I still love your father, it was just a completely, it was a different type of love. And that my love with her was allowing me to be who I was, my true self. And my world revolves around you guys, and I never wanted to hurt you at all. And I put you first, and what I wanted or needed second. Secrets have legacies. Secrets travel across generations.

And they amputate. And they amputate. They actually amputate. It's not that everything must be said. I think we understand the difference. She doesn't have to give all the details. But there is something about the irony of thinking that this would actually protect her daughters. It doesn't. I should have been honest at a much earlier point. I just didn't know how.

Can't kind of help who you fall in love with, and certainly falling in love with her hit me like, I had no idea. It was never even in my head. So I'm sorry for hurting you. I mean, there's one more thing. What's the one more thing? I actually want to talk to you,

not just because I want to apologize for that time, but also because by creating this silence, I have probably blocked so many avenues for connection, for conversation, for showing you the challenges of a woman being true to herself. Yes, that's true. I want to be able to have open conversations

about your lives and my life and our good and bad times. And I got to stop protecting you to the point that you can't. I have to give you, I guess, more credit. And I'm sorry for all that. And I just I hope you can find forgiveness and we can move forward to be in a better place than we are now. Good. We are in the midst of our session and there is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break.

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Squarespace has all the tools you need to create a home on the web. You can create a polished, professional place that connects people with whatever you are excited about. Squarespace also supports all forms of connecting with those people. Whether you're selling products online or in person, or offering memberships, you can make your website look exactly how you want it to be. They even have tools that help you create a custom logo. And they make it easy to create a place where people can schedule an appointment with you,

browse your services, or learn more about why you do what you do. Visit squarespace.com slash Esther for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code Esther to save 10% of your first purchase of a website or domain. What's it like to listen to all this? It felt good to hear you say that. And I heard a couple things about me in there too, which was nice. I know the hardest one for you to talk to was John.

And I know how freeing that is because to your horror at the younger one's college graduation I went over and gave him a hug but the girl's anxiousness disappeared and they're like okay this is good're all going to have a good weekend together as a whole intermingled extended family. Yeah. They need the permission and the freedom, and they need to know that they can call her mom without it upsetting you.

Right. Or other mom or any other word that refers to the relationship that they have which is a maternal relationship. I love that. I want that. I want… How would they know? I think just part of my struggle has been that I felt like over the years that you've

been a mom when it was convenient and not on a steady basis. We'd go to like school performances and things like that. Every single one. There is the past and how it impacts the present. And then there is the present, the everyday life of these two women and their bickering, their ability and inability to resolve conflict, their power dynamic. And now we need to address some of those. What if she's a different parent from you? Well, she definitely is. I just... It's also been a very slippery slope because when they were younger, and it's like meet the teacher day, and I'm like, let's go, let's meet the teacher.

No, no, no, you can't do that. I pick and choose. Right. If I may use the same word, you do at your convenience. Yes, you're right. But the two of you can do an inventory of each time when the other one didn't show up or the other one did not get included. Or you can do an inventory of each time that the other person did show up and was included. And given that the outcome has been really wonderful and the girls are doing really well, I don't see the point of a negative inventory,

or at least of the exclusivity of a negative inventory, when there is just as much of the other. That's very true. So, do you have big garbage bins near your houses? Yeah. There's a bunch of stuff that needs to be thrown in there. Yeah. I need to just let that stuff go and...

Would it help you if you took this whole pad and you wrote the various things that you've been holding on to. Yeah, I feel like that's something that we could do, make it an actual, like, throwing away of stuff. Rattle down quickly a few. Go ahead. Yeah, that you just don't let go of anything and that you will pick and choose what's important. And there's not a lot of accountability or responsibility.

Like, clean out your life and not make excuses and blame other people for... This, by the way, it's all been said a thousand times. Yes, it has. It's produced absolutely nothing. It's narrow, it's rigid, and it's fundamentally boring and deadening. Yes, that is very true. That doesn't mean it's not true. No, I understand. But it's useless. I feel like I almost have to, though, keep reminding her of it. Has it been useful? No. Okay. I feel like I'm a parent, you know, and she's a child and I don't want to be the parent. And you do understand that

when there is a parent and a child there is never any sex. Yes. Because if your head is screwed up right on your shoulders there should not be sex between a parent and a child yeah so if this remains the emotional organization of your relationship sex will be out of the relationship yes and i'm not just talking about sex i'm talking about physicality affection touch the entire adult erotic dimension of your relationship. And I think that it's that resentment about not being that equal partner that has caused a lot of this.

We will need to find out a better way to ask. What you ask may be totally legit, but you're going about it in a way that hasn't given you what you want. I feel like I've asked. I feel like at times over the years i've actually begged and was really truly honest and and open with what i needed from her and then there was never any follow-up action to that oh look kind of like came to the point where we sold the house because i could i was drowning financially and

i mean she took care of things around the house and did could I was drowning financially and I mean she took care of things around the house and did the laundry and all that but at the end of the day like bills weren't getting paid or things were you know and I couldn't I begged and I pleaded and I got a lot of pushback you know I don't want to sell the house I don't want to do this and I'm like so let's figure out a way to keep it but it never happened so you make certain decisions oh yeah I did I do I have to because that is actually the way I imagine it working the best yeah I did I said you know what we're doing we're selling the house and it ended up working out she's just there there needs to be consequences, and there's no consequences.

No, that's parental talk. I know it is parental talk. Thank you. Still, I feel like... But let me meet out equal justice for a moment. Anytime there is a person who takes on the parental role, there is somebody on the other side who draws it out. Doesn't like it, but knows exactly what to do.

And then you can be a petulant teenager. Yes. That asserts her autonomy in rebellion and in defiance and in reaction too. So if you want to be treated as an adult and as a lover, then you also need to act as such. I challenge the woman who has taken on the parental role, and I see the glee on the face of the other, as if I'm scolding, and yes, yes, but it is equally important for her to know

that if there is a parent, it's because there is a child or a teenager, and that teenager draws out of the other person the parental response, the same way that the parent draws out of the other a childlike response. One of the golden rules of couples is that we actually make the other. She doesn't fight with anyone in the world. She's the nicest person you'll ever meet. She loves to fight with me. I could never grasp why something that she said earlier turned on a light in my head. Which one? And it was about the resentment.

It was a representation of secret and shameful. And that made a lot of sense because I never understood why I was a punching bag. Like, why me? I get frustrated because I want you and I need you to step up so we're equal. And not this parent-child. And then I get frustrated because I want you and I need you to step up so we're equal and not this parent-child and then I get... But the stepping up is not just in the management of everyday life. No. The stepping up would also be her being able

to be an adult with you and that means she touches you, she kisses you, she makes love to you, she holds you, she shows up in that capacity too. So it's a collusion on both sides. Yes, that's true. I mean it is, it's, it's, yeah. And so each one says to the other, I can't change until you do yours first. In French, it's a very polite version. It's après vous. You first. But in French, it's after you. You are in touch with her resentments of you, but she is in touch with your defiance of her.

I feel like there's so many excuses that she is super smart and she gets frustrated because she's not, she can do so much. Look, she has to go figure herself out. I agree 100%. You're saying that to her in the way you do. The only power she gets is the power of no. Yeah. The more you say you can, the more the only autonomy she has is to say no.

Now, that is not a good dynamic. I try to be supportive, but I guess I'm not being supportive. For a while, you drop the topic altogether. The cheerleading side of it and the critical side of it. Okay. For a while, you have to bite your tongue. Because instead of going and taking action about the things that she needs to take action on, she spends her time reacting. There is a power dynamic

in this relationship. There is one woman who is definitely economically much more well-off. She has the resources. She had the marriage. She has the resources. She had the marriage. She has the children. She had the status that comes from being in a heterosexual relationship. So there is a clear power imbalance between the two women. But, you know, the person who manages to say no,

everybody who has had teenagers know that the true power doesn't lie with the parent at that moment. I think one of the things that drew her to me and that now just horrifies her, it does both at the same time. Um, the guy got on the subway playing the guitar and I was interacting with him and she's like nudging me. I was thoroughly enjoying him. So things like that that I do, she's like, I enjoy the fact that with

the girls, although I was in a role that was much stricter than I ever wanted to be, I think that I still gave them permission to be as fun and as... Can I interrupt you? Please. I think that what I'm trying to suggest to you, the subway scene is another example of the parental role. Mommy is telling you that you are not behaving properly in the subway, that you are embarrassing. Well, maybe I'm embarrassing her, but I'm just being me and enjoying this.

True, but that's the same as what any teenager would answer. It's another scene of the same. You're right. And my brain is stuck at 14 i know that okay yeah so anything from you at this point it really has to be about your own agency about your place in the world you spend so much time reacting to her that you actually don't take action about you. Correct. That is sad but true. This has to stop you in the position of a child. Right.

And for all I know, part of what drew you in the beginning when you met was to see her in the role of a mother and to like the mother you were seeing and to have another relationship where you could be. When we met, I was much more fun, much more exciting. I traveled more. I made more money. I think that I don't know how to make more money. I'm apparently not a very good businesswoman. No, you don't have to be a businesswoman, but you're very skilled and you can earn more by virtue of the things you know to do and do well.

I know what I'm good at. I know I'm a very good caretaker. That has value. The issue is not just what you do or how much you make. It's the story that you tell about I'm not good at this, I don't do that. So I should have been a doctor. It's probably true but you could be an amazing caregiver of all sorts and people need caregivers that are not doctors quite a bit. Yeah, but that's the part I can't do. Okay.

See, this is a perfect example. This is it. We just did it. We just did it. I just got inducted into exactly your role with your reaction. Here we are. This is the dynamic. She will come up with one idea after another,

and you'll poo-poo one idea after another, and your strength comes from the poo-poo. From now on, every time she says, I don't know what to do, you say, me neither. Okay. And you don't take it on, because the next minute you're going to come up with an advice, she instantly has you involved

and now she can say no and that'll keep you in this non-adult position and then you'll complain that she's not intimate with you and on and on it will go I know that I don't believe in myself

and my abilities and that's a huge stumbling block for me. So that may have been true for the first 50 years and that may not remain the truth of the future and that requires some risk taking and trying things and instead of defying her defy your own limiting beliefs okay and that's the only thing at this moment is to bring yourself up to date from 14 to 50. and to not be disappointed with how things went along the way. Because I can't change it. It is where it is. You are both vigorous, healthy, engaged.

Life is ahead of you. You are in a major life cycle transition. It's filled with possibilities. It won't be what you imagined. You enjoy each other's company. That goes a long way. Yes. You want that energy in your life.

That's what brings the vitality. From that place will come you owning your life and redressing the origin. The origin is I lied and I cheated and I did this, but I also fell in love and I was... It's a double story. And they coexist. You have only focused on one side.

Yes. And it's not the same to say, this is who I am, versus saying, I'm gay. That's not all of what you are, but it's been a part of you that has been hard to claim. Yes. I never looked at it as the two sides of a story. For as much bad there was good, you know? And that part of the reason I fell in love with you is just, like, I've never really met anyone that's just as genuine. And it's just, it doesn't want anything from anybody.

Just wants to love and give, and that's so rare. You do this, you'll get the smile that you have on your face now. You'll hold hands the way you do now. You look at her with tenderness the way you just did. For every day that I'm so frustrated and done, an hour later, I remember why, like, you know. Oh, that's welcome to marriage.

I know. You just heard a classic session of Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. To apply with your partner for a session on the podcast, for the transcripts or show notes on each episode, or to sign up for Esther's monthly newsletter, go to estherperel.com. Esther Perel is the author of Mating in Captivity in the State of Affairs. She also created a game of stories called Where Should We Begin?

For details, go to her website, estherperel.com. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Klaviyo. Klaviyo powers smarter digital relationships between your story and your customers. And sometimes the difference between a product and an obsession is simply a good story. But how do you ensure your brand story is actually shared? Tell your customers these stories, the one about how you made your first product in your childhood bedroom, or the idea for your brilliant new product that came to you on a subway platform.

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