Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - Say More - Ira Glass on Is This It?

Episode Date: February 26, 2024

Ira Glass has created over 800 episodes of the genre-defining radio show and podcast This American Life. Each week on the show he weaves together stories around a central narrative theme and he never shies away from the big hard questions. But after almost 30 years of producing the show- he's asking himself and Esther, is this it? For the first time on the U.S. stage, Esther invites you to an evening unlike any other. Join her as she shines a light on the cultural shifts transforming relationships and helps us rethink how we connect, how we desire – and even how we love. To find a city near you, go to https://www.estherperel.com/tour2024 Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Life is a succession of stages. And sometimes we end the stage to move into another. Sometimes there's a clash of stages. And the questions that accompany is, you know, when do we move on? Do we need to end something before we can start a new one? What does it mean when we say, I want to quit? And what actually propels us for change, for doing new things in our lives, for changing our focus, for seeking novelty, or for staying put? So a lot of people bring these types of questions to me,

especially when it pertains to their personal relationships. But in this case, our focus was very clearly work. And this was a very special conversation that I had with Ira Glass, my next guest. I've been doing the radio show I do since the 90s. And, you know, it's 800 episodes. And I'm'm aware of like what am I spending my time on this earth doing I probably should try something new like I don't even know what what that would be I'd really have to like take time and figure out how often have you done what you're doing today today here with me now is this is this being interviewed or is this a therapy session? No, no, no. It's a multitude

of things. But like, how often have you done that? Gone on somebody else's show without any idea of what you're going to talk about, with some ideas of what it could be, and just kind of showed up because you're curious. That's the main reason why you came, no? Yes, yes. When I tried to speak with Ira Glass, the creator and the host of the radio show This American Life, it became immediately clear to me that the way I go about having a conversation, because it's really more a conversation than an interview, is very different from his. I think he understood before he came that I work with a very different training and type of engagement, but I don't think that he knew in advance what it would feel like to him once he sat across from me. So before we met, Ira and my producer, Jesse, had had a few

conversations to discuss the topics that we could engage around. And when we actually started the conversation, Jesse stayed with us in the room. And I did wonder to what extent her presence Her presence offered a type of container, of boundary, of reminder that this is actually a podcast conversation and not a therapy session. You said you came in with three ideas. I have three theories on what we could talk about. The thing that Jesse and I had talked about was possibly talking about being a therapist kid. And I definitely, I'm sure you have things to say about that and thoughts about it, and I do too. Or the mother of two kids as a therapist.

Yeah, I'm saying, yeah, yeah. Then the second thing is actually this thing that I've been thinking about a lot and have a lot of current feelings about. And that is my dad is in a kind of turning point stage in his dementia. He's 90. And so, in fact, literally this week, I think we made the decision that we're going to move him out of his apartment and just watching. It's like I'm watching him kind of dissolve in the way that a person does. And then I'm very close to somebody who's going through this with her mom and um and she talked to me recently about how she feels like it's infected

her life in a way that i feel like it's infected my life too it's infected the way i'm seeing my days and how i'm spending my time so there's that infected that's an interesting word yeah well the best way to say it is like the way that she said it to me. Like, so my friend is managing her mom's care and her mom is on the other side of the country. And her mom is in better shape than my dad and has activities during the day. And so my friend, you know, on her phone, on her calendar, she has the things that she's scheduled for her mom. And she checks in with the caregiver and she checks in with her mom during the day. And those activities are things just to kind of keep her mom busy and give her something to do.

But then my friend then has her activities during the day. And she's a choreographer and runs a dance company and is a dancer. And like at some point she started to feel like, well, what am I doing all day? What are these activities that I'm doing that are filling my time? And is it any different than my mom? And she's in the situation that I'm in where she's run this dance company for decades and has made many, many shows. And I've been doing the radio show I do since the 90s. And, you know, it's 800 episodes. And although there's always something in every episode we do, honestly, that I get excited about. And I was like,

oh my God, we get to do this one. And there'll be some part of the process that I enjoy. It's very different making something for the 806th time than it is making it for the first few hundred times. And I'm aware of the repetitiveness and monotony of it. You know, like today at some point, I'm going to spend five hours probably tonight doing mix notes on this story that I'm producing that I'm very excited about. That's for this week's show. It's with this writer, Masha Gessen from the New Yorker who it's been incredible. But at some point

there's like, okay, so Masha read this paragraph four times. And do I want this sentence from this paragraph for this one, for this one? And do I agree with the choices that the tape cutter made and then like wait the music's coming in here should it come in here is this the right music should we use the other music and I feel like I don't mind doing that but I also it's exhausting and I've done it you know 800 sometimes you know for like all these different shows and um and I'm aware of like, what am I spending my time on this earth doing? And aware in a way that I certainly wasn't 10 years ago of my age. You and I are the same age, I think. I'm 64.

I have my birthday next week. Oh, happy birthday. 65. Really? I mean, and I would expect that you might have some version of this, like where you see these patients and these couples. But I changed. I mean, I came to that place where I just thought, I'm beginning to wake up in the morning and I'm not looking forward.

Once I'm in the office, I'm in it and I'm immersed and I'm completely focused. But I'm not going with the same energy that I used to go. I need a change. And I kept saying, I need to do something creative. And I need to get out of my office. When was this? When I did my first TED Talk in 2013, 10 years ago. And I came back and I said, I am not just,

I had always spoken to the general audience and not just to clinicians and medical people. But I came back and I said, my practice is great, but there's just a few people who can enter here. And what I have to say is bigger than this. And mating was already written with that idea, but I had not taken it further. And I said, A, I'm going to open the door to my office

and I'm going to lower the walls and I'm going to go and speak outside. And then the podcast was the reverse. It was bringing the people inside the office in a way that I had never been able to do because I wouldn't do it with patience. Right. Because those people sign up knowing I'm going to be on a podcast and it's not going to be real therapy. They have never been my patients. And that freedom I had been looking for. I had been asked many times to do TV shows

and didn't want to do therapy on TV. And I knew that listening is the power, but I also needed it not to be my patience. I couldn't mix the metaphors. And that I have, you know, I worked alone for 34 years as a practitioner and a teacher and a lecturer and a trainer. But it was just me. I never had an assistant. I booked.

I invoiced. I scheduled. I wrote the notes, like the old school therapist. You sent into the insurance. Yes. All of it. All of it.

I mean, I have six people doing what I used to do alone before. And I still took two months off. It's not like I just work. But I remember I would hear people talk about meetings and they don't like meeting. I love meetings. I love being with other people in my work. I love thinking with others. Not that I didn't have peer supervision groups and places where I came

together, but there is something about collaborating. Yeah. That I did a lot of, more than most therapists probably, because I bring therapist colleagues in my sessions. I collaborate a lot, but it's not the same as creating with others like we're doing here on this podcast. It's so interesting because you had a feeling doing it before you were doing it in front of people.

Oh, something very unusual or special is happening here, and it might be helpful if people would see it, or you're just proud that it was working. No, I had different thoughts. So when I say people never saw, it's also, I couldn't speak about it. You don't talk about your patients. Whereas I can talk about a podcast episode. I knew that what's happening in my room, especially with couples is sometimes the, as I also often say, the best theater in town. There is a level of intensity, of transformation, of drama, of hell and heaven, both. That is just unmatched.

And most people have no idea what goes on. And I knew that most couples actually never know what goes on truthfully in the lives of other couples. And that everybody's going at it in more and more isolating ways. And when we met, that I had in my head already. I had never listened to a podcast. I didn't know how this would work. And all I said to Jesse is, come, find me a couple and come and listen in. So that you have a, you tell me if there is something here or not. Right. I had, I didn't know how one takes this into that listening experience.

So they sat in, we had three offices. They sat in one of the offices. I was in the front office and they listened. They never saw anybody. And at the end of the first session, I think she, I mean, you can actually, you're not mic'd. I could move the mic over. Do you want to speak, Jessie? No, but you could be. Hold on. Well, Jessie, you are a witness to this part of it. We cried. Hold on, hold on, hold on. Get a mic, get a mic. So yeah. Well, Jessie, you are a witness to this part of it. We cried. Paul and I sat outside. Hold on, hold on, hold on. Get a mic, get a mic.

So yeah, so the first time you heard it was like what? I sat outside with the sound engineer and we literally cried, texted our partners. And this was a couple who was dealing with erectile dysfunction, which wasn't my issue. But it still resonated with the both of us. We were both so captivated by the couple and heard ourselves in the story. We were like, this is magic. This is what the world needs to be listening to. We have to take a brief break. Stay with us. you're at that place that I'm describing where you wake up in the morning and you say again. Yeah, kind of. Yeah. But once you're in, you're in it, but you're aware that there is something that is being lost. And there's a sense of the monotony and the repetition. And on the one hand, you can rationalize and say, God, I have the most incredible thing to repeat. What am I complaining

about? And on the other end, there is a real longing for novelty, for fresh energy. And there is an awareness through your father and your friend's mother that the mortality is hitting and you realize time, the need to, you know, if I'm going to do something else, is it now? Can I still do something? And that incredible question that we sit with that is called, is this it? Yeah, which is a question, honestly, I never had in my life. No. No, because I just feel like, oh, this will be fun.

Like, really, it's completely driven by like, oh, this seems fun. Let's do this next. Let's do this next. But it's a very normal question to have. So you have it now, but it is your question. Is this it? Am I going to do this for another 10 years or whatever years? Yeah.

Is there something else I can do? And if so, what would it be? And do I have ideas? Do I continue to do this, but I create variety and diversity and novelty in other parts of my life so that it, because it doesn't necessarily have to take place in my work or is work, which has been the central organizing factor of my life, going to become a place where I can invest with new energy. And that means do something completely different. And that's also scary. I mean, when I say, you know. That's not scary. Huh? That doesn't seem scary. It's not scary?

No. Then, you know, and you have an idea even? You have ideas of what it would be? Well, that's the problem. I feel like actually weirdly the radio show gives such latitude. Like we've made movies. We've done TV. We did a TV show.

Like I just finished writing a book with somebody. Do you know what I mean like and so I feel like I like I don't know when you say like yeah I probably should try something new like I don't even know what what what that would be I'd really have to like take time and figure out what would that be done what you're doing today today here with me now you mean how often have you done that is this is this being interviewed or is this being is this a therapy session what is this it's a multitude of things but like i've been twice on your show yes and i was clearly in a role of the interviewee yes you know you this beautiful thing it's like we're meeting we're talking we don't even know yet what we're going to talk about. But how often have you done that?

Gone on somebody else's show without any idea of what you're going to talk about, with some ideas of what it could be, and just kind of showed up because you're curious, probably. That's the main reason why you came, no? Yes. Yes, actually. I mean, curious about us, a conversation,

something outside of the typical frame. But how often have you done that with other? I mean, I've been interviewed a lot. Yeah, but it's great. But it's always about, like, you know, some show we're presenting or something we've done, some project, to go into an interview and not have that

kind of sense of like oh what will this be like even going on television they completely tell you they pre-interview you and they're like say this part don't say this part you know so this kind of thing that you're saying to get into an interview situation where where it's a conversation it's not a therapy session and it's not an interview but it's a conversation yeah yeah and you came you know and it's it's unframed and we don't know what the subject will be and i i think that's exciting actually it's fun it's like whoa let's see where this goes but i do that a lot i don't know how often you do that. And that in itself is something new too, is all I'm saying. I mean, you saying this reminds me of this thing that I was talking about doing about a month and half ago.

And that is that there was a kind of interview that I used to do all the time when I was in my 20s. And in fact, when I was trying to invent how do you do a radio story about something that isn't in the news, that is just about a regular person in their life? How do you do it compellingly? Like, how can you make something that is documenting our lives? But if you hear the first minute of it, you can't help yourself but listen to the next minute. And so I was doing these interviews, and I really had no sense of where they were going.

Like, it would just be somebody would come into town who was a friend of a friend. And he's like, oh, he's a good talker. And I'd sit him down and I would just have him tell me stories. And then I would kind of try to drive the stories to like, I realized pretty early on, they have to go to some sort of thought or point or something. And I pitched the radio staff on, let's do a show that's entirely that. And the conceit that we had was that we would just walk up to people

waiting for the subway and start conversations with them. And then if it was any good, we would just ride with them to their destination until we found a story. And there's something very pure about that. Like when that goes well, it has the same thing that I think you're experiencing in these sessions or these conversations, which is like you have no idea where it's going to go, but then you actually do connect with the person in a way that's real. Like you see something in them that's real and connect to them. And like there's something really very emotional in that, to go through that, like as the interviewer too.

And when you interview today, you don't have that feeling of discovery? Generally. As much? No, because I'm going into the interview with much more of an agenda. The kind of interview that I'm going into, I'm going into it with a map of a narrative in my head. And I want to hear what touched them and what affected them. And I want to hear how they changed.

So I'm going in, mapping out a narrative and in my head. And so then the interview process is just, is it going to work? You know, are they going to be honest and is it going to be interesting and try it with a few people, which is very different than just walking up to a stranger on the subway and saying like, let's let lightning strike or not today.

Do you always know the ending? Of a story? Yes. You mean when I go in to do the interview? Yes. Jesse just asked, do I always know the ending of a story when I go in to do the interview? Yes. Jesse just asked, do I always know the ending of a story when I go in to do the interview? I mean, no, but I have a theory about the possible endings that might happen.

Always. Is there an Ira Glass without This American Life and vice versa? Well, there's definitely a radio show without me. And there's definitely a radio show with me cut way back. That's not the question. What? The question is, is there you without this radio show? Well, I was going to get to that.

I mean, I think so, yeah. I mean, it's funny. You know, there are times when I'm working all the time that I get to have time off. And then when I reach time off, I'm like, what do I do now? What do I do with this? Do you get that? One thing that Jessie said to me earlier, she said, you work very hard, but you play a lot.

You do? Yes. Which means what? Which means I have a very active social life. I am at the theater a lot. I play music. I travel. You're 10 years in? How many years into being, doing the podcast? Seven.

Seven. Where it still feels like you haven't gotten to a point where it feels like you're repeating and it still feels new. Partly because I see less patients. I think of my podcast sessions as, you know, they're clinical hours, so to speak. They're not exactly the same. They're consultations. They're one time. But they have that. That is the part of me that gets put into action is the clinical part of me. Also, there's something so pure about them, like hearing you do them, where like, like

you are jumping into a situation where you don't know what's going to happen and then you have to react. And I had this today. I had it today where, where the, I mean, we did one episode and then, and then I was presented and I said, I don't know what to say about this topic. I mean, it's like, I was really like, how do I enter into this? But then I enter and then I hear one sentence. And then I know that this is the thing.

And then I got energy. I mean, I didn't have energy when I started. It was more like, ah, dating. What am I going to talk about dating that I haven't said? So Jesse said, but you haven't said it on the podcast. Because the problem is I say the same things on various platforms, in various outlets. So now I start to feel like, ah, I've said this.

Oh, see, there you go. There was the problem. Right, I've said this. Oh, that's it. There you go. There's the problem. Right. I've said this. And so why am I saying it again? Yes. Yeah. Because you didn't say it here.

Just like. And how many insights? Also, you get into the problem of how many insights can one person actually have? So, of course, like you're saying it in like different locations. But it's interesting to me that like, right, it comes alive to you when suddenly like you realize like, oh, I see, I see. Like it's like you find the diagnosis, you found the thread, and then it's like, okay, then it's very exciting because it's like you solved a puzzle almost.

Yeah, I feel that in interviews where I feel like, oh, I see that. I see how this goes. I see how this goes. I see how this goes. I see where we can take this. And then if it works, I can, like, it's very exciting. But what's confusing is I actually feel like the last year of episodes is maybe our, honestly, like, our best year we've ever made.

Like, the most consistently, like, weird variety of stuff where we're trying weird things and very emotional. So you're not busy saying the quality has degraded. We have no stories left to tell so no it feels like that's actually that that's that's another thing that's confusing is i feel like i feel like restless but i also feel like oh my god i finally got it so we're making our very best work but they coexist if you had done bad work you would have a different experience about and it's 800 and the last hundred are like i know but if this were like a marriage and i was

came in here and i said to you like have this partner the sex is amazing we still have a lot to talk about um but like we've done it like so for so it's been 30 years like you'd say like you're not going to do any better like stay there right that's one answer but you can have other answers 30 is a long time i mean this is what this is what people you know in marriage in marriage if you have agreed to the idea that it is lifelong yes then you answer you know what are you complaining about it's incredible yeah if you have agreed if you live with the you know there is a shelf life and this is as long as love lasts and 30 years is an incredible thing and you can leave a relationship even when it is a really good relationship then

you have answered differently but we're not as accustomed to using that theory or philosophy when it comes to marriage as we do to work i I mean, look, this notion of if it's good, what are you complaining about? You're not complaining. You are aware that it's good and that you've done it for a long time. Yes. And that there is something that is shifting inside of you,

even though it is really good and that however good it is, it is not enough to actually temper the restlessness that is inside it's interesting because i feel like i realize as we're talking about this as i'm actually like taking on what you're saying for me to do it i would have to make a structural change where i would just tell the staff like okay every other week i'm not here so we're remaking everything to you know or i or I'm here one month on, one month off. And I mean, honestly, like now,

like people guest host the show so much, they're all so good. Two of them are better than me. That like, like it would be fine for the show, I think. I have a, do you and your mother talk about her therapeutic work? I mean, no, not like that. Not in that way.

Like, that's not a thing. Like, we would talk about, like, I mean, she would talk in a very indiscreet way with members of her family about things that happened with her patients, which I know you're not supposed to do. But things would come up that she couldn't help but talk about. She just couldn't not talk about it. It was too meaningful or too powerful or too whatever. And did you learn a lot from listening to her? Yes. Yeah, but I don't remember those specific stories so much as...

The kinds of questions you ask. Yeah, exactly. Like a whole approach to seeing people. Yes, yes. In a way that, like she went back to grad school when I was in middle school and then was very eager to talk about what she was learning with somebody. So I remember her explaining reaction formation and like, you know, cognitive dissonance.

And like when you're 14, that actually is kind of useful information to understand. And, and then that just became so much of a part of me. I don't think of it as something I learned from her, which is so sad, like not giving her credit, but like, I don't, I just think like, well, this is, this is how I see things. And, and I think my sisters are the same way. Like they really, you know, just the way that she would think about people and take them apart, which I think like was in her before she became trained. But then when she became trained, obviously that became more focused.

She very much, when I started doing this american life 100 took credit for for all of it like she was like this is very much she felt very much like the way i am in an interview on the radio the way i'm listening to people and reacting and pushing them to, not for their own good like you do, but for my good. As the person trying to make an entertainment. She very much felt like all the credit was to her. And I learned it all from her. And at the time, I just laughed it off. But I think she was more right than wrong

with years of reflection I don't know yeah because I think it's osmosis I mean I know my kids have a way of thinking about people, social situations, relationships we are two therapists in the house they're the confidants of everyone situations, relationships. We are two therapists in the house. They're the confidants of everyone.

People come to them because they just absorbed it. Right, right, right. And people would come to my mom and ask her for advice, and I would hear the advice she would give. I would hear how she would look at the problem. And yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, I had a situation recently where somebody called me, and I was on the sofa, and one of my boys was sitting next to me and and basically it wasn't it was a friend it was not a and he heard me and he says

well mama you're the fort you're you're good at this like I would never have thought that this was about that was and it's like i showed him the ping pong right and and he literally you know it's like i said it's like when you do you know yeah when you the various different things he's into where i can't can't i said you go so fast how do you do this tech stuff you know your fingers move and and and he said you know said, your mind was moving at the speed that my fingers move at. So I know that 30 years of this. Yeah. No, you don't have to say thank you.

It just is the culture of the house. When somebody told a story, there was a certain way of answering to the story. Right. That is different from another way. And did you grow up with that in your house were your parents like that? no, not by professional education but it was a reflective house we talked politics

we yelled at each other about politics we disagreed vehemently with each other everybody read the paper we watched the news in three to four languages every night. Oh, wow. That's very different. So that we could compare.

Wow, really? Yes. Wow. Yes. French, Flemish, German, for sure. You know, to see how do the Germans talk about what's happening there and how do the French talk about it. So you had this notion that the world is in your

living room you know that whatever happens in the geopolitics of the world is going to determine how you're going to handle and at that point you were living where in Belgium right in Belgium in the 70s but yes the and um and I'm'm sure you could predict what the Germans would say. Sometimes, sometimes, you know. And so who did they interview? Who did they bring on for... You know, Vietnam was happening at the time. 68 was happening at the time.

I mean, there was plenty of stuff happening in the world. You know, the Six-Day War was happening at the time. I mean, it's just on and on. But basically, it was a reflective place. We discussed topics. We talked about people. I lived above the store of my parents, and so I worked in the store since I could speak, basically.

What kind of store? Clothing store. And, you know, we were a family shop, and we talked about the shop all the time. A family business, you know, where my mother would go from serving a client to serving her family members. That's so interesting. Now, my house, like, it didn't have that kind of, like, active sort of political and intellectual life. And, like, my parents, yeah, they weren't like that. And there were books in the

house, but we didn't talk about books. And my dad was an accountant and then would come home kind of exhausted. And then was a kind of like sort of a vaguely dark, but quiet presence. And so there wasn't that kind of interchange. And if anything, I feel like there's money Jews and book Jews, and I feel like my parents would hate it when I would say this, but I think they were very much more money Jews. And one measure of that is when I was trying to figure out, when I was figuring out what to do with my life, the thought that I would go into public broadcasting was,

they were just completely against it because of the money. They're like, which is and I think like a well booked you family they'd be so pleased you know what I mean it was working at NPR and like my parents couldn't stand NPR and you know they never listened which I think is actually one of the things that made me go there like it's just because I knew that they would it was like I was uh I was on a I was on a stage that they would never see they were American born yes yeah yeah yeah but like, I was, I was on a, I was on a stage that they would never see. They were American born? Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like they, but they, like I was invisible, so I could just do whatever I wanted. I didn't have any of their surveillance because they couldn't stand it. And, which then gave me an immense freedom to just invent who I was going to be. But for my whole, you know,

twenties, they were completely against everything I was doing. And they're just like, get a job where you can make money. You can still go back to med school. And yeah, which my mom stopped saying to me. This American life had been on the air for five years. I was 41. And she said it on the occasion of it was that I was on television for the first time. I was on Letterman. And she called me a vector.

She said, okay, you win. You don't have to go to medical school. You don't have to go to medical school. And she said it like knowing it was a joke, but also like, yeah, it was sweet. You made it. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

You've proven your point. It's fine. This worked out fine. Yeah. We are in the midst of our session, and there is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us. So my dad didn't read.

My father barely could read. Wow. And write. He was rather illiterate. But he taught himself to read magazines and newspapers. Were they Holocaust survivors? Yes, both my parents. Okay.

From Poland? From Poland, who arrived to Belgium from the camps after the war. But my mother was a reader. But a reader who finished high school, and my dad went three years to school. But nevertheless, there was respect for this because my brother, I have an older brother and he's 12 years older than me. And he was a reader. And I saw that they valued it, you know, even though he didn't know to do it, he valued it. But there were magazines like like Time magazine type,

French versions of that, and the newspaper every day. And they would read those. Yes. Yeah, right. We got Spiegel. We got Stern. Right. I mean, all the magazines, Paris Match.

And, you know, that's where you got your education of the world. But my professional exhortations, like you say, you can go to medical school. It's good for you to go to school and maybe to have something that you know to do in case he can't do it and provide for you and he needs your help. Of course. So in case your husband gets incapacitated, that'll be fine. He'll stay with the children, and then you can take over. Yes, but there was nothing. And did that make you angry? Or did you laugh at all?

What made me angry is that my mother wanted to marry me off at 18 because she came from an ultra-Orthodox family in which this was what you did. Even though she worked her whole life. If I wanted to see my mother, I had to be in the store. The store was open from 9 a.m. to 8 p.m. and 9 p.m. on Friday and Saturday. So I lived in the store.

But there was no encouragement to have a career. But she worked. Yes, but working because she had to, not because it was a career. Right. Because they came to Belgium, they had absolutely nothing. They were the sole survivors.

They had lost everything and everybody. But even when I got the master's, you know, my mother would come to visit. She would say, why don't you cook him dinner? Make sure his stomach is full or he will find someone else to cook for him. I mean, I had the 21st century and the 19th century in my kitchen at the same time. Oh, my goodness.

You know, so they were proud. Again, did it make you angry or did you just laugh at it? I had so many other reasons to be angry with my mother. So that was not. They didn't even make the list. You know, they didn't even block me either. When I decided I wanted to come and do my master's in the States, they supported me. It's not like they didn't value it.

But that was not where it's at. Right. This is a good thing to do in the meantime. Right. But the real thing is your family life. Right. You know, your children, your husband, your standing in the community and things like that.

No, no, this didn't really anger me necessarily. What angered me more is if she came to listen to a talk and I was on a panel and she would say, for being the youngest, you did not too bad. That was a compliment. That was as best as she could say it. So, but they were proud. I mean, you know, the books came out after.

So after my mother, my father, my father would often say like, what exactly do you do? Do you help these people? Wow. And how is it that you can help them you barely know them you know did you ever go to their homes do you see how they live how would you explain it i just would say you know we would have these conversations and I would say, well, it's true. And sometimes I have gone to their homes and sometimes, you know, if you had days when you don't feel like getting up in the morning or you feel like life is meaningless,

which was a very important conversation with my father who would never allow himself to feel this. Right. And he didn't survive for nothing so he couldn't really understand people you know yeah who were down like this not that he didn't understand you can be depressed or you know or if you have loss or if you have you know and what would happen is i would say talk to me about your experiences because I can learn so much about how you both did it and all your friends for the people I work with. What I'm saying is I had trauma training for my entire life before I got a trauma course.

My entire community was Holocaust survivors. So I knew among the Jewish people. I lived in a totally Belgian neighborhood, knew among the Jewish people. I lived in a totally Belgian neighborhood, but among the Jewish people. So I watched how people recover or don't. You know, what I always describe as those who didn't die and those who came back to life. Yeah, the people who stay stuck in it,

the people who decide, like, we're moving on. I know, it's so interesting. Or decide, at least could do it. Many people wanted to, but didn't know how to just didn't have it in them anymore had been too broken. So I didn't so much explain to my dad as I would ask him. And then I would say, it's those kinds of conversations that I have with people. And then he would say, but couples,

they need to want and they need to make compromises. That's what helps a relationship. You know, for the love of the day, it's a compromise. I remember those sentences. In a general way, that's true. Like those are the general topics. There was something very practical about it.

You know, it was über-analyzed. it. You know, it was analyzed. Yeah. You know, but they knew the couples who didn't get along and they would say this couple

they just don't get along and she doesn't have a good word to say about him and he just can't wait not to be in her presence and they commented about,

so, you know. I mean, having a clothing store is a little bit like having a radio show because at the time when people came to buy a suit and they came with their whole family they told you the whole story right it wasn't like you enter a place today and you don't you know you sold the clothes i sold clothes sold clothes. You spoke with the people.

They stayed for hours. You gave him a beer. You gave her a tea. It's like a him and a her. And it was very, and the children, you know, I remember the first time when the kids stopped wearing suits with short pants but began wearing Shetland sweaters. Like the first time young people didn't dress like little adults, but created their own fashion.

So it's very anthropological of a clothing store, that kind of clothing store. Yeah. Yeah, I see that. Yeah, that's good training. You know? Yeah. I have one more question.

After many decades of people listening to you on a very intimate medium, do you feel like people know you? I asked her that question before. You asked her that question about you? About me. Do I feel like people know me? Yes. I think people have a sense of what I'm interested in,

which is a part of me you know like you can tell from the radio show um what I get excited about and what interests me and the kinds of things that I react to and how I react so I think that's a whole part of me that's very real that's there and present on the radio um and then there's a whole part of me which which isn't on the show at all in a way that seems entirely appropriate, you know? So I feel like people know a part of me. Is that an incomplete answer? Is that okay? It'll do.

It'll do. Yeah. Yeah. Do you guys have an ending? I feel like we've talked about a bunch of things. I have one more question. Okay. Can you find happiness washing the dishes or having a salad? Or is that something that you are seeking? I feel very aware lately of this thing that I think about is like eating without tasting.

You know what I mean? Of like going through experiences, but not letting them get to me. And no, I'm having trouble connecting to feeling, you know? And that's new? No. No. No.

No. Because that is something that is more palpable about you. Is more what? Palpable. Really? Yes. And you work with people who are feeling things intensely. You have conversations. This is not lost on me.

I know. Yeah. Yeah. Like, no. And also, I'm somebody who has trouble getting close in an intimate relationship. Like, with friends it's fine, but, like, in an intimate relationship, have trouble trusting and, you know, and getting close. And so it's not lost on me that I, like, invented a radio format

that is entirely based around, like, these moments of intimacy with strangers, you know but they feel intimate and they are intimate they are intimate yeah yeah it's generally intimate but yeah but like like yeah and if you think about it like only somebody who would have trouble doing it in their personal life would go to the trouble to invent a radio format like that you know like why else would you do that? Ira came with three questions to our conversation and we never really addressed the third one. So be it.

But I would love to extend another invitation so that we could actually address that question. And maybe, Ira, you will come with many others and so we can continue our conversations together. Thank you for joining us. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Eva Walchover, Destry Sibley, Hyweta Gatana, Sabrina Farhi,

Eleanor Kagan, Kristen Muller, and Julianne Hatt. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, Jen Marler, and Jack Saul.