Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - Sex, Comedy and Context: A Live Conversation with Trevor Noah

Episode Date: March 19, 2024

Not all conversations with Esther have to happen behind closed doors. Last week, Esther sat down with Trevor Noah, live from the Vox Media Podcast Stage at SXSW in Austin, for a candid look at the state of comedy in the world we live in. The two of them uncovered some surprising similarities between being a comic and being a therapist. Esther showed Trevor a few ways to become a better listener and Trevor in return helped Esther prep for her new live tour. If you want to be part of that show too- Esther invites you to an evening unlike any other. Join her as she shines a light on the cultural shifts transforming relationships and helps us rethink how we connect, how we desire – and even how we love. To find a city near you, go to https://www.estherperel.com/tour2024 For Trevor Noah's Off the Record tour visit https://www.trevornoah.com/shows To hear more from Trevor Noah head over to his podcast, What Now? With Trevor Noah: spotify.link/trevornoah Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What you're about to hear is a conversation between Esther Perel and Trevor Noah. It was recorded in front of a live audience at South by Southwest on the Vox Media podcast stage. Good morning, everyone. Hello. Hi, Trevor. Hi, Esther. How are you? We're going to be talking about stage fright later, but I have a lot of stage fright right now. I think they're going to come adjust your microphone in a second.

Yep. See, I'm sitting with a pro. You hear how I sound. I do. I mean, this is what I do all the time. So I have an intimate relationship with microphones and speakers. Okay, I help people have intimate relationships with people. You should try it out. This episode of Where Should We Begin is very different for me because you are a guest,

we are going to be in conversation. And I thought, why talk with a comedian? And I often think that comedians are prophets who speak the unspoken, secure the prejudices, highlight the hypocrisies. And particularly at this moment in time, to talk about the use of humor, the role of humor, is a conversation that I was very much looking forward to. Why did you accept to talk to me? Because I wanted a free therapy session. And I wanted to do it in front of strangers.

That's hot. I've always loved learning from you. You always have wonderful conversations whenever we speak. And I always feel that every discipline, whether it's an art or otherwise, can contribute or touches other disciplines in some way, shape or form. So when I speak to an art historian, you know, to our conversation earlier, I learn something about comedy from it. If I speak to, you know, a linguist, I learn something about comedy from it. If I speak to a linguist, I learn something about comedy from it. And it doesn't even have to apply to comedy, but I just find anyone who spends a lot of time in their field has learned certain things that are applicable to almost any field and any space. And so, you know, I don't think you can talk about comedy without talking about psychology. I don't think you can talk about comedy without talking about psychology. I don't think you can talk about comedy or the relationship comedians have with an audience

without thinking like a therapist. And so I thought, what better conversation to have than with somebody who I think is, you know, at the top of their field about comedy and then everything that's not comedy and then where do the two overlap? And, you know, know I thought why not so you know comedy laughter humor have always been a part of the cultural and political landscape right the gladiators in Rome before they went to their last fight they did graffitis with funny stories that that blows my mind but there is another one like did they do this on the walls? Yes,

on the walls. So they would etch? They would etch. They would etch imagery and statements that basically highlighted what I think is one of the things that we don't often think about when we talk about humor, which is that it is our ultimate freedom. We decide the perspective that we will take on something. It's the French philosopher Bergson, who really wrote a lot about humor, spoke about it as the ultimate freedom. And Boccaccio wrote the Decameron during the Black Plague, and he has all these storytellers.

It's like in the midst of darkness, in the midst of hell, there is laughter. Yes. So I wanted to ask you, how does that sentence speak to you? And what do you see is the role of humor? We have wars right now. We have Israel, Palestine. We have Ukraine. We have Sudan. We have the climate crisis. I mean, we have a lot of things to cry about. And you make us laugh about them. Well, I think, you know, it's interesting that you say you can create your reality. Because I think laughter is strange in that if we think of all the emotions that we're able to express or feel, one of the things about laughter that's particularly interesting to me is it's one of the few emotions that robs your pain of its power yes do you know what I mean yes so if somebody's doing something

terrible to you and you cry in many ways it gives them power if you get angry in many ways it gives them power if you get whatever it is a wide range of reactions and emotions it gives them power but if you laugh that is strange i remember watching you know movies when i was a child and i would see like a you know the villain in a in a movie get caught and then getting punched or something and then there would always be that scene you know it would be joker or someone they'd start laughing at batman while batman's punching them and the jokers they're like and this ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. And this person's getting punched. And all of a sudden, the punching almost seems meaningless.

Why bother? If this person can laugh while you're doing that to them, then… Then you don't have to be afraid. It's… Then you have the power. Yeah. Then you're doing to them rather versus them doing to you. You know, it reminds me. Years back, I worked on a theater project, and we were doing witnessing

theater, theater arts against political violence. We were working with a group of Chileans who had been in solitary confinement, tortured, resisting the Pinochet regime. And we were trying to be very solemn and sanctimonious and humble and really make sure that we captured what they went through and the horrors of their captivity. Then they came to watch the play, and they looked at us and said, but you missed the most important thing. And we were like, what have you done?

Humor! Humor! You think we survived in solitary confinement by being solemn? You know, we were scratching on the walls, we were having more, we were laughing with the torturers and we had the last word. Huh. I'm noticing a trend of people scratching on walls when things are really bad. This is something I need to try. Yeah, I need to try it in my home. I will say I've never been to a truck stop where there aren't etchings on the wall.

So maybe this is an ancient wisdom we have. Like, it's interesting that you say that. Yes, it's from the cavemen. Now, when they said that to you, how did you process it? When somebody says, we're in solitary confinement, we were struggling, we went through a lot of pain, and then you reenact their experience and they say you didn't remember the humor or you didn't include the humor. How did you process that and how did it change how you saw stories? Well, I thought we missed it.

We thought we were being respectful by being very serious, but that didn't capture the experience and that there is tragic optimism. And that means that you get to decide your reaction to the events which you cannot control. And that's what humor often does. It helps you confront the uncontrollable yes i think you know to your previous question i've often found that human when you know when people say what is human's purpose i go it's like saying what is water's purpose

humor is as broad as water is you know it's like, you can use it to cook or dilute. You can use it to wet something. You can use it to, I think that's what humor is. To destroy something. Yeah, you can, to destroy something. There are some parts, there are some times and some moments where humor is used as a tool to, you know, like in the case of Charlie Chaplin, for instance. I think what was amazing about what Charlie Chaplin did

is he used humor to bring Hitler down to the size that he deserved to be. He used humor to remind people that this person wasn't a god and this person wasn't impenetrable. That's what he used humor to do because what Hitler wanted was for everyone to look at him seriously and go, look at me, this is who I am. And Charlie Chaplin was like, no, let's look at him as how we wish to see him. That was one use of humor. Another type of humor is, you know, there's the gallows humor.

People laughing at the end and in a weird way controlling their own destiny and their own feeling. That's right. The ultimate freedom. Exactly. Yes. Sometimes you use humor to connect people. You use humor to laugh together.

Some of the best laughs I've experienced have been at funerals and at wakes and in moments where everybody is sharing a collective grief and someone will punctuate that. You know, one of my favorite moments was one of my best friends in South Africa. His uncle was diagnosed with cancer and was stage four. And he was in the hospital bed and his whole family had come in. And essentially the doctor said there's nothing they can do. And the guy had a few months to live. And the whole family is gathered there with him. And his brother leaves the room, comes back after 15 minutes with an animated face. And he says, guys, guys, I just spoke to the doctor.

He says, there's something we can do. He said, there's something we can do. And everyone's like, what? And he turns to his brother who's in the bed. I mean, this man is dying. And he looks at him and he says, the doctor says, you have to see how far you can bend. Can you still bend your rib cage?

Can you bend your head? How far forward can you bend? And he says, I don't know, I can try. He says, if you bend bend far forward go all the way down and kiss your ass goodbye and everyone laughed everyone if the man in the bed the family that everyone people had been crying the whole time until this day it is one of the biggest laughs that is shared in and amongst the family and I always found that magical that the story of this man dying, and he did die, unfortunately. It's a happy story.

But that story, when you ask them, your uncle had cancer or your father had cancer or your brother had cancer, they go, oh man. And he died kissing his ass. Exactly, exactly. I think that's what makes humor magical is that it serves many purposes. So I thought of another one because when you look online,

often what you see is all the physiological benefits of laughter. Yes. That it distresses you, it reduces cortisol levels, it increases endorphins, it resets. But I thought, and this is linked to my work as well, that humor is the closest you can get to a person without touching them. Hmm. How does that sound to you?

Wow. As I would say in session, sit with this for a moment. That's profound i think it's profound because touch depending on how you hear it can be positive or negative and so i agree with you because in many ways humor is a form a way that you can touch somebody else. I mean look at the scenario around the dying man. Yeah. You have unity, you have solidarity, you are puncturing vanity, you know, can you still bend? It really was a way to getting very very close to each other. The reason I think you are so right as well is because humor relies on sharing a reality. Yes.

Even if it is for a moment in time, even if it is just for a sentence, that's what humor is. One of my favorite things about humor is you can often tell a joke and people will laugh before they can think about the joke. And then sometimes they'll go, no, I don't find that funny. And I go, you've laughed. You've laughed already. It's too late. You can't, they go, look, no, I shouldn't have, I don't think that that's funny. It's like, no, no, you laughed. It's finished. It's gone already. And I find that that's what I you know to that point of touching somebody without you know getting close to them without touching them is that's what humor is is you're finding a moment where you connect with someone in a shared moment of truth and humor

by the way requires truth that's maybe that's maybe why I find it so intimate it always requires truth I don't know if you experienced that because you use humor in therapy as well. But like, do you find, would you agree if I was to say that humor always has truth connected to it, whereas maybe facts do not? You know, when someone just tells you a story, you often find they can fabricate, they can move this, they can put it the way they, but humor, especially when other people join in, it means that people have actually agreed. I mean, you can only laugh together at something that you relate to together. Yes. So, and when it's true, it's on top of it more powerful because it is subversive, especially

when it's something you shouldn't be laughing at. Yes yes right so i had actually written it like this this is an american we called it american multiple choice okay you know comedy exposes hypocrisy builds bridges tells the truth like no other, speaks the unmentionable, punctures vanity, challenges falsehoods, and skewers prejudices, creates unity and solidarity. What does your comedy do? I think my comedy does as many of those things as possible. But when I was performing comedy, you know, before I was on The Daily Show or before people really knew me, one of my favorite moments when stepping on stage was the fact that the audience had no concept or perspective of who I was. I was a stranger stepping up in front of an audience about to engage in a really intimate experience with them.

And a comedy club is oftentimes 100, 150 people, and that's it. And I remember one day, because I would, you know, I would always have this awkward feeling at the beginning of a comedy show. In many ways, you know, you will talk about that with therapy. You know, where should we begin? Where do we begin?

And I remember one day I said to the audience, and it stuck with me for a few shows, I said, comedy is a lot like sex. It's a seduction exercise. It really is. Because as the performer, I'm playing the role of one person where my role, my job in this moment is to satisfy you as the performer I'm playing the role of one person where my role, my job in this moment is to satisfy you as the audience and then you know the

audience essentially is telling me how well I'm doing or not by how much noise they make and this becomes... This is a double entendre. It really is and it becomes a real back and forth and a relationship. And there are times when the audience might get uncomfortable. And my job, I think, as a good comedian, is to try and provide the context for them to understand why they should be comfortable with me, but also understand why they aren't comfortable

and be able to move and play in that dance. And that's why I think it's exactly like sex, in that sometimes you think the audience might come to the show going, we want you to do what you do. And then midwayway through go I don't know if I'm comfortable with that change my mind change my mind I don't know if I'm comfortable with that let's let's go back to missionary jokes and that's fine that's fine and and and it's interesting because then sometimes an audience becomes more comfortable and then you do engage and it's a constant dance. When you go back to missionary jokes, do you ever lose interest? I don't. I don't. Because what I've learned over time is all comedy,

the entire relationship, just like sex, is all all about context and context is about communicating with somebody else where you are in relation to them and then hopefully them understanding where they are in relation to you right you know there's a very interesting distinction in latin in french in French too about context. Rire is to laugh. Derire is to deride, i.e. to humiliate. It's just two letters that make the whole difference. It changes it. It changes it because it says that you can't laugh with somebody who is feeling vulnerable

about the thing you're trying to poke fun at, which is a little different from your uncle's story. Yeah. So my question is, do you find that it's harder these days to make fun of certain things? Are we more vulnerable today? Are we more prickly? So, honestly, I don't think we are.

I might be the outlier in this feeling, but I don't think that people have become more sensitive. I don't think that people have become more easily offended. I honestly don't think that. the way we share content or the way we connect with people has lost the context that is necessary for people to feel comfortable when telling or not telling a joke. You know, to use the same analogy of sex, when you have sex with somebody, it is an intimate moment where you get to know them, you both become more and more comfortable with each other, and as the layers of clothes are being removed, you're both consenting to each moment that then leads to another and then you are engulfed in each other and then you go where you wish to go to together. But now what the internet and social media has done is it has teleported us to sex with people that we weren't even having sex with.

You know so of course you'd be offended you know if if if some random person was teleported into your bedroom and then said let's have sex I think you'd be offended because there's no backstory there's no journey who are they how are they do you know their story everything we do in sex is a terrible disgusting thing if you don't have the context for the other person. I call it the plot. Yes, thank you. The plot. Yes, the plot. And so I think comedy itself is that. You have social media, which has been amazing for many things. But now I can have a conversation with Esther online. We can be laughing. We can be tweeting at each other. We can be sending TikToks, whatever it might be. But somebody who has no context for the plot or the conversation can step in and find a fence in that because they were not part of the conversation to the sidewalk. Because with you walking by, you would be offended at every comedy club if you walked in. There are people in comedy clubs who are in wheelchairs,

people who have loved ones who are deceased, people who are dying, people who are, you know, you name it, you name it. People in comedy clubs are living life, they're human. And comedians are exploring this with them. And in the comedy club, in that confine, you will find magic and connection like you've never experienced before. But if you open the windows, people would walk past and say,

how could you say that? How did that person, how could you do that? We have to take a brief break. Stay with us. So in my office, when the doors are closed, I often help people cry. You help people laugh. I help people cry. I laugh with them as they're crying, but I also... You laugh with them or at them? Derride or... With...

But I don't get to decide what they're crying about. With. But I don't get to decide what they're crying about. Whereas you do get to decide what you want them to laugh at or with. Yes, but you don't decide what they will laugh about or with. And that's where comedy is magical. Sometimes you can say something that you think is funny. No response. You may say something afterwards or before it that to you was nothing and the audience goes, that is what we find funny. Correct. You know, so again, going back to sex, forgive me. In sex, it's like there is what you

think is going to pleasure the person and there is what pleasures the person. And so you might think this is what I'm doing. This is going to be great. And then all of a sudden they go, actually, no, no, no, I like that. And I think if you are in concert with them and you wish for that to be their pleasure as a comedian, I'm not saying this because I want you to laugh at this. I wish to come. I wish I wish to bring you on a journey with me. So it is an exercise in seduction it's come over completely and you know so when I asked you what is something that you would like to learn from me actually we asked each other what would we like to learn from each other

I am about to go on tour and I have a ton to learn from the pro and you said that you wanted to learn from me how to be a better listener. Yes. Why? I think there are a few tools, two parts. One, there are a few tools that are more important in our society than learning how to listen. Not learning how to hear. I think we all hear, but we don't know how to listen.

And the reason I wanted to learn it from you and to understand, you know, if you can give us a few tips on how to listen is because I think a fantastic therapist, especially in couples therapy, has to listen. The partner says, she always does this. The other partner says, oh, that's because he always wants that. And an amazing therapist goes, what I'm hearing her say is, and what he might be expressing is, but neither party has said that. You've listened to something that was never said. You've listened to something that may not have come out of their mouths. It might have been a body gesture. I'm constantly fascinated by that for life, for comedy, for everything.

Because I think it's one of the most priceless tools that we oftentimes forget about in society. It's listening, not just hearing. So I thought of two things. So first of all, there is where should we begin, which for me, I always imagined if you listen carefully to the stories of others, the more you listen to them and the more you will see yourself. And I hope that when people listen to where should we begin, they also listen to how I listen but one thing that you can't know from listening on a podcast one you do and one you don't the one that you can't know is that you

don't just listen with your ears you listen with your voice you listen with your eyes you listen with your smile you listen with the hand, you listen as you walk closer to the person, hence in therapy, in person, and not just online. There is the whole body listens. And the more you listen like that, the quality of your listening is what will shape what the speaker will tell how much, how open, how deep. Meaning, listening is not just the passive recipient. Listening shapes the speaker. So that's one thing I taught for you in listening.

And you do that because you are constantly attuned to how people are listening to you and changing what you're doing in the moment in response to how they listen. And then listening, real listening, is curiosity. If you listen with expectations in advance of what you should hear, you're not listening. If you're listening with a confirmation bias to get evidence for that which you've already made up your mind about, you're not really listening. Listening is a certain kind of engagement

with the unknown. It's curiosity. It's being completely available to what the other person is telling you. And I think that that also happens in your shows. Yeah, it happens in my shows, but I realize why an ex of mine hated that I would look at my phone when she was speaking no I just had a realization now I'm like huh

I never thought about that genuinely and because in my head are you serious no yeah because no because in my head in my head I thought you're supposed to have empathy as a therapist, Esther. You should be like, wow, and how does that make you feel? Not, are you serious? No. No, because in my head. You just realized this now. No, I'll tell you why.

I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why. Because, you see, funny enough, because of the way you articulated it, I'll tell you why. I would always be hearing what she would say but what you just said was so so detailed the idea of shaping the speaker or the communication by your full listening is something that I don't think I fully I would interpret that on stage I may fully understand but when speaking to people sometimes I think I'll take that for granted. Because I think of it as information sometimes. So I go like, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh. Information, download, download,

download, download. Okay, thank you. Done. So this, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, what we call today ambiguous loss. Ambiguous loss? Yes. It's the sensation that you are with somebody who is there but not present. Ambiguous loss is a concept that we borrow from Pauline Boss, who talks about grief. When a person is having Alzheimer's and they are still physically present, but psychologically or emotionally gone, which is what happens when you're doing this. Or on the other side, when they are deployed or when they disappeared or when they're hostage or when they're at war and you know that they are physically gone, but psychologically and emotionally very present.

And so you can't resolve the dilemma. Right. Ambiguous loss. And today, many people in their interactions experience ambiguous loss i'm talking to you about something super important and you're just like ticking away and it makes me feel like anything i'm telling you has no value no importance yeah no i i mean i can understand it you know in comedy clubs we would always say the the moment every comedian hates is when they're collecting the check. So you never want to be on stage during that moment where the waiters will walk through the

room and they'll start giving people their check. And then you're trying to tell jokes and people are trying to calculate the tip on their bill. It's the worst moment to be in a comedy club. You can literally feel the audience disappear from you. essentially they're going uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh uh-huh yeah yeah no I'm listening I'm listening what's 20% of it? We have to take a brief break. Stay with us. So this just reminded me. So I'm going on tour, right? I want to know why, by the way. Why I'm going on tour?

Yeah. For the very reason that you talked about why in-person sex is better. Yes, yes. But I think more specifically for me as I'm going, like you already do therapy with people one on one. I'm saying why the group sex? That's what I'm trying to get to. I thought of it as a first date with 3,000 people, but not yet there. Because I do think that breeding together, sitting together, talking about love, sex, desire, breakups in a collective actually is the most important way

to take us out of the loneliness that we often feel in those experiences. I think that we've become quite socially atrophied after this time. And I think that we're living more and more in a contactless world. When this conversation, I mean, this is what's happened here. People, I wouldn't, you know, like you, we talked for two years by looking at a green dot on the screen. We never heard a person laugh. We had no idea how they responded to us. We spoke and we had no notion of who was listening and how. We feel everything here. And that experience is not just for me the experience, it's the experience of the people in the room.

You are aware of the other people's the experience of the people in the room you are aware of the other people's responses to what's happening you identify with others who are sharing the same experience even if they don't say a word because you see the tears the whole thing and for that I am going back in the world I want to have that experience and I want people to have that experience with each other do you ever get nervous get nervous when you're doing those shows? So this is exactly, you know, here I laughed and you talk about the bill in the comedy club. I actually need light when I talk. I need to see the people. If I have a dark pit in front of me, that really, I have a lot of fear. I stage fright I need to see I need to see the

eyes of the people who are looking at me because otherwise who am I talking to um I have fears about you know yeah but you know what's interesting about about comedy is where where comedy some comedians have that as well but oftentimes I find audiences are less likely to laugh if they're too well lit yes because there's a there's a um there's a freedom in knowing that other people can't see you laugh and then you forget that other people… And I think it's important sometimes to not feel like we're watched in order to give our most honest response. So that's interesting that from your side, you need to see them…

No, but I do light on and off now. I turn them on for certain things and I turn them off for other things. Oh, wow. Like, when do you turn them on? Like, just like after someone has said something very awkward. Who has strange fantasies? Lights on! You come to the show, you watch.

What do you do for stage fright? What... I have that. What do you do for stage fright? i have that what you do for stage fright what do you do when you joke wait wait okay are you saying stage fright or are you saying nerves because i think the two are different oh tell me so in in the way i interpret it stage fright means an inability to perform because you are you might forget what you want to say you might you're a deer in the headlights. That's stage fright to me. Nerves is different. Nerves is having a fear.

It's the fear of the uncertain. It's the moment a, you know, a base jumper breathes and you see them, you know, closing their eyes and pumping their chest just before they jump off a high bridge. It's the moment before, you know, a soccer player walks out of the tunnel onto a field and you see them look up and they say a little prayer and that's nerves. I think the two are very different. That's why I'm asking which one you actually have.

Is it nerves or is it stage fright? I have both. Wow. I can't imagine you having stage fright. I have stage fright and I feel like I... Oh, your throat closes. Yes, yes. And then at moments I think I see blank, like I can't remember a thing.

And the minute I talk to someone, like we came on, I had stage fright before, but the moment... Even here? Yes. But the minute I'm in conversation, I get grounded by the presence of the other. It's when I'm talking, you know yes the part that is more kind of that i think i have a few things i would like to say before that i need yeah and nerves i'm fine because nerves turn into humor yes yes like for you probably so and once people have laughed with me and i feel like they're with me, you know.

It's true. The first laugh is always the most important, I find. Yes. But with stage fright, I... I feel like I'm outside of myself. Like I'm looking at myself from the outside in sometimes and thinking, I'm going to see blank. But I know people don't see it, but I feel it. No, I understand that.

I understand that. I understand that. What I'm trying to understand is, so whenever I'm thinking of nerves or stage fright, I try to understand what the underlying feeling actually is. I can't think in those moments. Yes. Yes, but I'm saying, I try to get to why. Is that rational? Yes, but I'm trying to get to why can't you think. By the way, it is very rational.

Sometimes it's overstimulation. You know, there's too many faces, too many eyes, too many things. It could be you're a perfectionist, which I know you are, by the way. It could be you in that moment thinking about all the things that you've prepared up until that point. I often find people who have stage fright are often the people who also over-prepare. I am an over-preparer. Yeah. Yeah, because when you over-prepare, you have so many things that you've inundated your brain with

that when the moment comes, you go, wait, do I remember all of it? It's almost too much pressure in a strange way. And it's why I remember when I was in school, there's a teacher who taught us, said, hey, the last thing you should do is study the day of the exam. The last thing you should do is talk about the exam before the exam. Everything up until that point, she used to say to us, she'd go, if you don't know it by the day, you don't know it. Trust me. She'd be like, just move on with your life.

And I think that there's... And maybe that's where small talk comes in, which is another thing I don't think you're great at, is small talk. Neither are you. Neither am I? No. I'm fantastic with... I'm better than you at small talk. I'll say this. I can create the veneer of enjoying small talk.

You do not have small talk at all. That is true. But you pretend it's small talk, but it's anything but. No, but I'm engaging in small talk you do not have small talk at all that is true but you pretended small talk but it's anything but yeah no but i'm engaging in small talk but i'm getting something deeper from it there's a difference you you are not even into small talk land at all at all at all why you've listened to where should we when was the last time you said to somebody, ah, this weather, huh? So I will tell you where I do my best small talk. I've made some of my best friends on airplanes.

I met so many people on the plane, exchanging newspapers. You know, I was reading Le Monde, they were reading Libération. You know, we know exactly our political affiliations. And I think when you sit up suspended in the air, like in the movie, you start these incredible conversations. And they can start with small talk like, do you travel this airline frequently?

Or where are you flying to? Or is it work or pleasure? Or any of this. And then it's amazing what people tell me. When I wrote The State of Affairs, it's about infidelity. Do you know what people told me on airplanes? It's just unbelievable. It's a living confessional.

I think there's two reasons. That's why there is no small talk, because people come to me and start telling me very important, secretive, deep things very quickly. No, but I think it's… And I respect it. No, but I think… Okay, I think it's two things.

So, one, I'll actually get to that part second. But the first part is the thing about airplanes. Number one, I think there is something that we have learned and that is if you have a little less oxygen, you're a little more free. No, I'm serious. That's why people breathe into paper bags before they go on stage. No, really, it is that sometimes. It's just like letting your body's stress response go down a little. Do you do any breathing before you walk on stage?

Yes. Yeah, so if you get the right breathing, that might help. But the other thing about planes might be to your small talk is you have inherently agreed with somebody that you are going through or doing the same thing. The fact that you are in a plane with somebody means that you have both made the same decision to head to the same place in life, even if it is just for that moment in time. And so now you can say to somebody, huh, do you often fly this airline? Huh, and which is one of the most important things that people are afraid of. You don't seem like a crazy person, you know?

If you walk down the street and you say to somebody, do you walk down the street often? You could look like a psychopath. But on a plane, because we've made this decision. We have a shared reality. Exactly. There it is. And so I think, I find that that is the key to good small talk.

The key to good small talk is to acknowledge the environment that both of you are sharing. That's why weather is the most widely used small talk possible. Because it's the one thing that we all have to experience, whether we like it or not. I don't care what newspaper you've read. I don't care where you're from in the world. I don't care how you see the world. It's raining. It's raining. Wow, this rain. Yeah, man, this rain. Oh, this rain. And now we're in. And now we're in an elevator and we don't even do this kind of small talk anymore. Because that small talk

would have been accompanied with the second line is so where do you get lunch when it rains and then where do you get lunch when it rains could have become oh let me take you and show you a place right around the corner that you don't know and we would have begun a whole relationship with this one little line of small talk and we don't have it why why do you think that that's gone away because exactly what you know i agree i agree i agree i think it's i think it's the the fact that we have a means to contact the people who we already contact all the time means we are less inclined to contact new people to share experiences in life with them so if you eat an amazing that is extremely well said you know if you if you

enjoy an amazing meal the thing you can do now is tell someone you know immediately about it you can text your friends and go oh my god guys i just ate at this phenomenal restaurant in a picture of the whole there you go whereas before there was a time when you literally just had to talk to somebody on the train the bus bus, wherever you are, and just turn and say, yeah, have you eaten at this place? Oh, that was amazing. Because there's a wonderful feeling in your body when you have to share something.

That's the second place where I've met people. Is restaurants. Yes, yes. You start talking with the people next to you at the table. Next thing, you're in a bar together. Next thing, you're walking down. Oh, yeah. You see?

So there. So I have a question for for you because you know me a little bit what advice do you have for me as i go out on this tour you're touring all the time off the record you're going out in the world right now that's the name of your tour yeah mine is just called an evening with esther perel which i think is beautiful i like that a lot but what do you do i mean one thing i thought of with you what does he do when he bombs like i say a sentence people laugh the next day i come i say the same sentence nobody reacts and i don't know how one recovers from this thing so fast but that's just one piece like what should one know i've never done 10 in a row like this. So, okay. Knowing you, this is what I would say. So it's interesting. Every time I go out and

do shows or anything that I do in the world, I try and think about what I'm going to give. And then I try and think about what I would hope to get and the get always changes the give varies but not that much but the get always changes for me on this tour I think you have a wonderful opportunity to delve into the stage fright understand it tame it or even use it to your advantage I think that's a wonderful thing to learn to do um I'll bring a little Trevor Noah you should you should you can do but you see that's the amazing thing the second thing I think to remember is it's all about expectation

so you know when you say something as a comedian and it doesn't land the crowd doesn't laugh the only reason you can feel bad about it is because you expected them to laugh. And if you do not expect them to laugh, all of a sudden, everything changes. It completely changes.

Going back to what you said, if you are curious, you don't have a preconceived notion. Instead of going out and saying to an audience, this is funny, you're saying to an audience, do you think this is funny? All of a sudden, it changes. Because when they go, audience, do you think this is funny? All of a sudden it changes because when they go, no, you don't take it as a personal affront anymore. Now you're like, huh, why don't you think this is funny? And now you go down that rabbit hole. Would it be funny if I said it this way? Would it be funny if I said it that way? Huh, this is really interesting to me. And all of a sudden you find yourself winding down a road that you never would have otherwise because you

had assumed something that was supposed to happen and then didn't and now you're in your head going why didn't they laugh are they going to laugh at the things that come next oh where am I what am I doing what's going on here oh this is terrible I don't know what's gonna and and then it's over for you so I think that's that's something that you can let go of also when people are coming to to Esther Perel I think the primary reason they're coming is because they want to grow they want to learn they want to explore conversations that they maybe aren't able to have by themselves they want to be in community in these intimate spaces so the the one thing for you that you should always also take with you is no one's expecting you to be funny so

that's a bonus do you get what I'm saying? Like if you if you are of the profession and you do not deliver it people are disappointed You know, so if I'm a stripper and I do not turn you on I have failed But if I'm a bus driver and I start taking my clothes off and you get turned on, that's a bonus. Mr. Trevor, I'm going to thank you because I want us to actually bring this community that is here with us. So first of all, your tour is called... Off the Record.

And the reason I call that funny enough, that is because, you know, it's funny, you and I often are in the similar zeitgeist or we're experiencing a similar zeitgeist in time I call it that because I wish for more of those moments I wish for more moments where we are off the record I wish for more moments where we exist from here to here nowhere else just in that moment I think that's how we build communication that's how we build understanding that's how we build communication. That's how we build understanding. That's how we build context. But now even in politics, we live in a world where

one politician will not even engage with another politician because they're afraid that the outside world sees them and then questions their validity within their political sphere. And then that means no talks can ever happen. And I think we need to do more things off the record. You know, love can be off the record. Your relationship can be off the record. A conversation, a room like this, let's do it off the record sometimes, you know, where it's like there's no phones

and you have to just remember everything. And then you have to go and recount it to somebody else and you have to go and try and share it with them. I genuinely want to get back to that. I want to be in a place and a space in time where I say, this happened there. oh you you had to be there and if you weren't you won't fully understand it and that's fine privacy intimacy that is also other words for what happens off the record but your podcast is called now what what now what now yes no and it's No, it's funny because it goes, it took us a long time to decide that.

It is because they are very different. Yes, tell me. So What Now is because I wanted to have conversations about the conversations that invade our lives. And I love that thing. I would always say that to friends. You know, we'd be having a conversation. Someone would go, oh, did you see what's happening with TikTok? And then I would say, oh, What Now?

You know, and it's just like everything in life life i always feel that there's a what now and i think the double entendre of it is what now where do we go from here yes okay this has happened there are many things in the world that are going to happen but what now i don't think we spend enough time in society asking the what now. We've gotten really good at reacting, but we haven't gotten good at saying, okay, it has happened. What now? As in a session that starts with where should we begin? Exactly. So, listen to his podcast, go to his tour, and let's… Listen to her podcast, go to his tour and let's listen to her podcast go to her tour if you want to hear more

from Trevor and myself we asked the audience to share some questions with us as a second part

of our conversation and if you're curious, just join us on My Office Hours on Apple subscription later this week. This is my favorite part of watching your shows, by the way. I've watched the videos and then I'll always, I love this part, really. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel

is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julian Hatt. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, Jen Marler, and Jack Saul.