Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - She's Out, He's Still In.

Episode Date: November 13, 2023

After 20 years together, they wonder if their marriage has run its course? She is too unhappy to stay together and doubts if she ever felt true passion for him. He is holding onto the relationship for the both of them and refusing to truly hear her. Esther explores his desire for hope and her desire for change. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Just say it. I don't care. The last time? Yeah. Yeah, the last time we had sex. He was so happy. I told her I loved her and I said, you know, let's just try again. Apparently she closed the bathroom door and then sat in there and cried.

None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real. My wife of 15 years recently revealed to me that she doesn't feel the same way that she once did about me. I've never felt romantic feelings towards him in a grand way. And there hasn't been much effort over the years. I know that I have loved her immensely since I met her but I didn't ever really feel a lot from her. Some of the most challenging and sometimes really painful or sad sessions for me are the ones

where I accompany a couple in their dissolution, in the end of a relationship, where one person is out and the other person is holding on for their life. I might be wrong that I would do anything to make this work. It might be too late, but I'm willing to try. And the session often is about helping that person really hear it. But it is also about helping the other person not shut themselves down. As if the shutting down is what's going to give you the strength to act. I just don't think it's fair for either of us to be like stuck in this relationship. I'm never going to be able to deliver what he needs or wants. I just, I can't do it anymore.

So you actually work with both people and it's quite common for me to cry with them and to just sit in the flats of the end. Here you are today and you say, I'm sitting with this terrible, painful realization that we are at a crossroads and that my wife and I are feeling very differently about each other. How did we get there? Where did you start? What's the story of this relationship? So as far back as I can remember knowing her, she lived across the street from me

when I was a teenager. She's a few years older than me. And she was living with a friend of hers. Fast forward a few years later, I got a job for a relative while I was in college. She worked for him. So I would see her at this office. And then one day, I see her outside the building smoking a cigarette. And she had said that she had a rough weekend. She broke up with someone. And I think a bell went off in my head. And I was like, ooh, this is my in, and we went on one date, and I mean, I was positive that I was in love with her pretty much immediately. She was just so pretty and dressed well, and she was living on her own. She had her own apartment. I was still living with my parents, so I felt like I was getting like a real woman.

And I think at that time I was like 23, 24. I was, I wanted to start like an adult life. And she was like, you know, perfect. And then we dated for a few months, maybe a year. And then she moved in with me. A few years went by, we bought a co-op, got married, had our son. And a few years after that, we moved to the suburbs and bought a house. And I think in the last five years, I think has kind of been a struggle for us relationship-wise. From my perspective, I just thought it was a lot of just typical marriage things of boredom. She's working a lot. I'm working. I come home. She's tired. I'm tired.

We have a son. And we had decided to go to therapy about six to eight months ago. And then at some point, she made it clear that she just, I think her exact words, I just don't feel the same way that I used to. And that she's not happy and that she doesn't know what she wants. And the more I would push her on it and ask her for clarity on the situation, it seemed like she didn't have the way to put into words that she just didn't really love being married anymore. She's never been very communicative with her emotions. I don't know how she stands on a lot of things. She just shuts down.

You can talk to her. She's right here. I'm sorry. It's okay. I feel like you, you know, I've made this clear to you that you had experienced stuff in your childhood that shut something down inside of your heart. And when the person who promised to be with you for the rest of his and

her life needed you, you just shut down and said, that's too much for me. Can I ask you when you say the one person that when you needed her? There was a time a few years ago where I was going through depression. I had felt horrible about myself. I was going through anxiety. I was a little hesitant to just be open about it with my friends. I think that I'm, I put up like a brave face sometimes when, when I'm by myself,

I don't feel the same way. You know, I definitely do that with guys I work with. I walk in and I'm usually very chatty, making jokes and stuff. But when I'm on my way home, I'm the opposite, when it's just me. She's the one who I think I'm the most open with. And I felt like the more I would go to her and needed her to just be there, I mean, literally just sit next to me, the further she went. And it hurt. And I just feel like there's something wrong that a person who just can't give. I mean,

I feel like when I was at my most vulnerable, instead of her helping me, it actually made her look at me in a lesser way. And you have felt that there is one person who is your emotional rock, but who doesn't always nurture you emotionally the way that you would want. And so one of the reasons that there are things she doesn't tell you is because she's acutely aware of how much it would hurt you. That's exactly what's been the crux. So let's bring you into the conversation. This was the perfect moment to come in. The perfect segue. Yes. We have barely started, but I instantly get a sense that he's bereft. He doesn't want to end this relationship. And he is holding on to the idea that it's her childhood trauma that has caused her to be broken.

And that brokenness is causing her to want to leave this marriage. And if only I can put the pieces back together with her, hopefully she will want to stay. Then I look at her and I see someone sitting stoic, numb, rather affectless. And a little bit with the sense that the person who is left is the broken one and the person who wants to leave has their act together. And these are the various characters in front of me. The broken one, the stoic one, the one who's leaving and the one who's left. So put this in your own words and you can talk to him. I will listen. I think that if I

understand my role today, it's actually about creating a frame so that the two of you can have a conversation that you've been having half the time, but not really. That's true. conversation or every argument we've been getting into it it's always leads to you saying you're fucked up your trauma from your childhood okay how about this i stand by that yes it does go to that i would like you to tell her what it is that i think is your issue from my childhood? Yes. Where should I start? Why?

She can decide if she wants to. No, absolutely, you're right. She can. I mean, I may ask, but you have pasts, you have histories, but it's not a given that those histories are the reasons for why you feel the way you do. It's shattering, but I think I just carry myself differently. I handle things differently. But if he saw your tears, it would mean a lot to him.

It's the fact that you do your stoic pose and what he calls the shutdown. So then he thinks you're fine and he's crushed. I do have an issue with communicating. I do. And I'm sure that is part of the upbringing and things that I've had to deal with. So tell me a little bit about... The upbringing?

Yeah. Well, and here's the thing. You tell the story that you want to tell me. You don't tell the story that he wants you to tell me. It's like he owns your past at this moment. He's the one who attributes the importance to it, the meaning of it, the legacy of it. It may be accurate factually, but that still robs you of the story. Right.

Well, I can tell it. I mean, we lived in California. My dad was from New York and my mom grew up in Arizona. And they split when I was six and my little baby brother was three. And my mom was having an affair with the next door neighbor. My father was also a struggling drug addict on and off his whole life. And my mom ended up moving back to Arizona with my brother. And somehow I stayed with my dad. And my dad brought me back to New York. And at that point, my dad was an active heroin addict. About a year or two after that, my dad got clean, but he also contracted hepatitis at that point. He was HIV positive.

And then I think it was junior year of high school, I went to go visit my mom and I found that she's been drinking. She started drinking at 40. And then by the time she was 44, she was gone. She committed suicide. And my dad passed away three years after she did. So I was in my early 20s, no parents, you know, so I was, I guess, in survival mode since I was a young kid. But I never looked at it like poor me or like I was a victim. I feel like my parents were like amazing human beings, but they were full of their own demons. You know, like my dad was a wonderful man. He was smart and he was funny and he was an artist. He used to take me on the subway every weekend and we would go to museums and

run around the city. And it was just like my mom too. She was a lovely woman. So even though they both had like these horrible sides to them, like I feel like I got a lot from them, you know. Yeah, no child should have had to live through that. But I did. And kind of just moved on. I don't want to sit in it. You know, I don't walk around depressed or feel like this traumatized person. I don't feel like it's affected me so negatively.

I mean, I'm sure, obviously obviously it's had an effect on me. In what way, you think? I mean, I couldn't even tell you. Like, I don't hold on to it. He would like to say, you know, I'm loving and I'm cold-hearted and I don't feel that. I hear you, which is why I asked you to tell me your story and not the story he wants you to tell. Right. At this moment, it seems like you no longer know how to think about your life separately from his editorial comments. Yeah. Because I don't sit in it until he says, you're like this because. Unless I'll share one thought that came through me as I was listening to you.

Is that okay? Yeah, of course. Both your parents had a wide emotional range. Mm-hmm. had a wide emotional range. And it's really beautiful that you're able to see the complexity of them, the fullness of them, and not just her alcoholism, his addiction, but the whole rainbow

and the intensity of them. And you chose a life where there was going to be none of them. And you chose a life where there was going to be none of that. Safe. Yeah. No ruffles, no highs and lows, to the point that when he has highs and lows,

you want to be as far away from it as possible. It's like a visceral reaction when you have people who take up all the room you don't need much emotions it's very interesting your face remains totally flat but your chest is totally red of course you don't express much who even noticed it back then right i you. You were noticing every little thing about them. And you chose a life that mirrored that. You're kind and you're loving, but as long as he's steady,

because he was chosen for steady. I do remember when he was struggling with the depression. He's here. You don't have to talk to him in the third person. Yeah. When you were struggling, I know I shut down. I've apologized for it because I know when he was depressed and had anxiety, he was also drinking. And I think because of my past and seeing my mother depressed and start drinking and how it escalated, it was my way of trying to help you wasn't to lay with him and hug him.

It was get out of bed. Get up. Let's get moving. Let's find a doctor. Let's, yeah, I was probably trying to protect myself at the same time because I didn't want to live through that again. I don't want my husband to be an alcoholic. I mean, he was drinking heavily. I don't want my son to be around that. I hated it. And it went on for years. And I just remember every time he got the ice like I had anxiety like just horrible feeling and I told him and I

remember him looking at me going you're crazy those are your words you're crazy you have a problem and then I shut down don't say anything I I know you think it's an excuse but you're feeling that of feeling that just kind of like drained me from anything I had left. I feel like, I mean, I know we've always had like, I don't know how to. We always had what? Like a mundane marriage i know that's hard to hear but it's just like yeah maybe in the very beginning because there was like look at what we created and it was exciting and we were taking care of a baby and but i feel like once that settled we got right back into this. But you hold him responsible for that?

No. Not fully, no. But I feel like the past five years have just chipped away like anything I was still able to hold on to. The more distant, the more... He wants. Yeah, but I also say the more he suits himself with his own means. I know. the more he soothes himself with his own means. I know.

And the more he soothes himself with his own means, and the more turned off you are, you remove yourself, and the more you remove yourself, and the more he brings you back to your own childhood, so to speak. And it's not even the childhood, just like i wanted better for him as a person i feel that he doesn't love himself and i've said this for years i understand like and i take full responsibility with the drinking and my negative aspects it was a problem and it definitely triggered a lot of emotions what i struggle with is that she could sit here and easily tell you the negative things. But in our 20-year relationship, I don't know why she can't ever see anything positive that I did in the past, that I've done for our family literally she doesn't ever express anything positive really about me it's always what I'm doing kind of wrong when you look at your 20 years or when you talk about the mundane, he hears it as, I never made you happy.

What was I? You talk about the happiness of your son. You talk about the beginning. But it's very hard to leave or to be left and to feel that we failed in the entire endeavor. So if you're going to go, it will be better if he knows that he meant something. He's not so much fighting against you leaving. He's fighting against the disillusionment. He thinks that I've lied for 20 years,

that I've never wanted this. But it is somewhat what you are communicating. I don't think you'd want to say that, but that is... How it's coming across. Yes. Now that makes sense. Even the origin story. He saw you. He fantasized about you.

He has vivid images. Do you have any? Do you have an origin story? I do love him. He's a good person. I just think that from early on, it just wasn't like this whirlwind romantic in love feeling. It was love and it was security and it was friendship. It's not a bad premise?

No, not a bad premise. To think I made a mistake is also not fair and maybe not even true because in the moment when she met him he was what she needed or what she was looking for and what she wanted maybe she would have wanted something else but in the moment having him devoted family-oriented, and adoring of her was probably what she wanted. So hindsight to go and say that was a mistake is also not being real in terms of where one was at, at the time when one made the decision. Maybe the decision doesn't suit her today today and she wants something else, but that doesn't mean that the decision she made back then was a mistake. People often have a revisionist

attitude by which they reinterpret everything with the data of today. I want to tell you about another couples therapy show I've been enjoying, a truly hilarious comedy podcast called Say More with Dr. Sheila. Oh, I'm so glad you're enjoying it, Esther. But for legal reasons, I need you to say doctor in the form of a question. Oh, a question. Okay. Are you not an actual doctor, Dr. Sheila? Is anyone really a doctor?

Yes, many people. Well, who's to say who is and who isn't? But let's get back to you saying more about why you enjoy my podcast. Of course. Well, where should we begin? Say more. Well, you, Dr. Sheila, offer fun, unconventional advice, I should say. Say more? Well, for example, you allowed the mother of one of your clients to hide under a blanket during a session so she could eavesdrop. Oh, you call it unconventional. I call it radical healing. And I call it very funny. Say more with Dr. Sheila, played by the always hilarious Amy Poehler, is now available wherever you get your podcasts.

And I'm so sorry, but I think that's our time. To be continued. Breaking up is very painful, but feeling that the story that accompanied your relationship turns into a failure brings another level of disillusionment that makes it hard to breathe. I do feel like I've failed. Definitely. And I think that partly it's because when you're trying to prove to him that you have to go,

you don't include much of the positive because you're trying to make a case. And I think that that's not fair to the relationship. Good relationships end too. They don't have to be bad or a failure to justify their ending. And my question to you is not, why do you want to go? My question to you would start with, tell me everything you would miss. You're going to go. But I think you need to be in touch with what you're going to miss.

And he needs to know that there is something you will miss. When you work with the end of a relationship, I listen to know if there is still hidden hope. Something a person is fighting or angry at that actually says that they still care. When they come in and they are shut down, as if they care about nothing, like in her case, she won't show him that there is any sadness for her or any tenderness she still holds for him. Because the idea is that if I show you any warmth, affection, care, love, you're going to think that there is hope. And I don't want to give you any hope. So I make it look like I have nothing to lose.

And I have zero feeling for you which crushes the other person even more because it's like only I am upset only I experience pain and hurt and sadness and loss and you don't feel any of this how is that possible after so many years together then the work is about you're going to go showing remorse regret longing loss none of that are going to prevent you from going you're going to go but you are allowed to go with things that you cared about and things that you will miss for yourself and more importantly also for your partner to know so that they're not leaving this marriage of two decades thinking she never loved me. That's a terrible legacy and probably not the whole story. I feel like we built a good friendship and we loved each other and we respected each other and we had fun with each other.

We created a family. Like, that was a big deal for me. And I wish that was enough. Don't go to the other side. Okay. It's what I take with me from you. I'm going to miss family. I'm going to miss family. I'm going to miss being that unit.

Again, nothing has to do with me though. Of course, you're my family. I'm talking about on a personal level. There's nothing about me that you've ever been in love with. Nothing. And I'm trying to show her that. Like, you're not, I don't think that she's right. I think that she's going to regret this,

and I'm going to be the one who's hurt by it. So should I stay and not feel in love with you and not want to be intimate with you? Of course not. I mean, of course not. Of course not. But I think that the only logical explanation, the only logical... Can she feel?

Oh, I'm sorry. It's okay. So what do I do? So I go through the motions, and that doesn't feel good to me, and it's not fair to you. When he interrupts her, it's one of those moments when he's fighting for the relationship. He's in the grip of the experience of loss and he's trying to convince her. He's trying to see if she still is in the field fighting for the relationship with him. And the reason I do what I do is because I knew from before we met that she really wanted out.

And that part of why she was coming is to make sure that he can hear that. She was not coming to see if she would like to re-engage, if there still is some hope for her. She actually made it very clear that that was not what she wanted from this session. And he was coming, knowing that this is what he was going to hear, but somehow perhaps hoping that I could turn her around when he could not. Are you still sexual? No. Not for a long time.

Years? No. Maybe close to a year now. And I remember that... Just say it. I don't care. The last time? Yeah.

Yeah, the last time we had sex. He was so happy. I told her I loved her and I said you know let's just try again and apparently she closed the bathroom door and then sat in there and cried and then she told me that and that's why I say things like you know you just hurt me like instead you say that you love me and that I'm a good person and all this stuff. But it's like, you just find ways to just kill me. It's killing me. Like, you know, and then I'm just always, I always go back to this line that it's like, I didn't do anything. Like, I didn't do anything wrong.

I don't deserve this. And I know that that's just my ego. I know it's just my I didn't do anything. I didn't do anything wrong. I don't deserve this. And I know that that's just my ego. I know it's just my, you know, that. You don't. Well, I know that. You don't deserve this. Neither of you. You don't deserve this.

And you are both in a bind. If she tells you nothing, she's in a bind. If she tells you how she feels, she's crushing you. And when she does tell you how she feels, she gets confirmed in that it's better not to tell you because it hurts you so badly that she has to take care of you for making you feel so bad for her feeling bad. And you feel like your whole life is unraveling in front of you. And so will hers. But it doesn't have to be a complete unraveling and you can be there for each other. This story doesn't end when you separate. You have a child, you have years to be together, you will be in a sheltered life forever. So the story is at a transition. A divorce is not the end of a family,

it's the reorganization of the family. And there's a part of you that wants him to agree with your decision. And he may not. You may have to act out of your own conviction, so to speak, but he does not have to agree with you, nor give you his blessing, nor think it's the best thing that could happen for both of you. I know. I struggle with these feelings. it hurts me that I can't just feel what I should feel or what you want me to feel or what I wish I felt. And I know I've finally been honest about it, but the idea of blowing up the family, I don't know how to move forward.

There's so much pain in this couple. The fact that she appears more numb and stoic and closed off doesn't mean she's not feeling. It just means that she's made sure that she can go, but she's just terrified because she has nowhere to go. All she knows is she doesn't want to be here. She doesn't really know what is the life outside of her relationship. And so he deals with sadness, she deals with fear. Did you ever try to change this after it all came out? Or did you see this as a linear denouement? Well, yeah, I had said, let's go away. Come on, we'll pick a weekend and we'll fly to somewhere. Who cares? Put her on the

credit card. Because I know that that was something that she had brought up in the past. Like, we don't go anywhere. And in my defense, we both were lazy about it. She never, ever said, I need this from you to make me happy. And I don't think I ever really needed any, I never said like, hey, I need this from you to make me happy other than the obvious things of sex. I wanted him to make an effort. That's what I used to ask for. Yeah, an effort. Make an effort with yourself. That always bothered me too. It was like, she always would blame the way that I am for myself. She discovered the gym several years ago, goes to the gym, works out, very health conscious.

I don't like going to the gym. And I think that she doesn't understand how I don't care as much as she does about it. But what you're telling me is that your whole relationship, neither of you felt that you could express any wishes, needs, expectations? I never really had any expectations from her. That's not true. Actually, you do, but they're not in the, this is what i would like you to do your expectations is that she be your emotional yes harbor that she be the person who makes your life worth living yes that's a big expectation yes that's a very good point that I was ultimately trying to get to.

And there's nothing negative about that, by the way. No, no, what I meant, what I think I was trying to say. It's just a big burden for her to carry. Yes, you know. You have basically spent your relationship telling him what he's doing wrong rather than telling him what you want. Well, I mean, we were in therapy years ago, briefly. And I remember that back then, which is probably almost 10 years ago, it was, what do you want?

And I was like, I want him to make an effort. I can't stand living with somebody who doesn't take care of himself. But it was also with an effort with me. It was also an effort with you. But I still, to this day, don't even know what effort you're talking about. Okay, ask that and then let's listen. I cut her off. Like, yeah, I'm sorry.

No, me too. No, it's two of us. Like effort to do what with us? I remember in therapy specifically saying, I know he wants to have sex with me. But I don't feel like he really wants to hang out with me. Like there's never a date night. There's never like, let's... All I've ever wanted to do is just hang out with you.

You really think that... Hold on, hold on. Here's what you're going to try. I'm sorry. No, there's no need to apologize. It's very hard. You ask the question, what would the effort be about? She's answering you.

She's thinking out loud with you. See if you can hear it. Okay. Because I have a sense here that this thing has gone on wheels on its own and that actually nothing was tried in this relationship. And that's a pity too. But I feel like if I, it's like too late for me.

That's my honest response. The thought of us going on vacation is like, it's, I feel like it would just. Is what? I don't know the right word. Just, I don't want to. And it's horrible to say that.

When you say it's too late, it's too late because he did not make an effort sooner or it's too late because you were not truthful with yourself sooner? Both. It's not the same. Because in the complacency department, you're rather equal. In the laziness department, you know, neither of us made much effort of anything. And then it becomes, you know,

you didn't seduce me, you didn't court me, we didn't have date nights, and to which he then says, but, you know, you didn't seduce me, you didn't court me, we didn't have date nights, and to which she then says, but, you know, you never told me you even wanted a date night. You just said do something, and I don't know what to do because I probably learned about a ton of other things for the 20 years we've been together, but I've never really gone to read much about how to seduce a woman. That's correct. You know, I have read about whatever, real estate and economy and politics and sports

and everything else, but never how to be a better lover to my woman. Can't deny it. You're right. There's a lot of ignorance here. When I say it, I say it in a kind, compassionate way. This is not a criticism. When she says make an effort, I hear her say, take me to the museums like my dad used to do.

Take me out. You feel like you starved and you feel that if I let us re-engage in any way, I'm going back to that state of deadness that I'm finally getting out of. Yeah. It's like I don't want to go backwards. I struggle with it. Of course you do. There has to be more.

You're not... I feel like I'm never going to be able to love him the way he desires or he needs because I don't feel that intimate part that like I feel like the friendship part I feel like the partner part I feel bonded to him in that way I don't feel the sexual part and I know that you have to have that like I feel like you have to have that and I know you need that and I can't deliver that and that's where I feel like torn like do you stay and then just be unsatisfied to keep this unit together or are you selfish and and blow everything up and there's collateral damage and and I don't know. The sexual aspect of our relationship from early on till now,

I probably have put a lot of emphasis on that to her. I think that it put pressure on her because I would tell you in the past how many times it just drove me nuts that I had to always ask you to have sex or you never made me feel like you actually were into it. You can't have a marriage without that. My experience with her is that she's just not sexual. It's just not something that she thinks about, that she enjoys. And I just always found it strange. And I, of course, internalized that.

And it made me feel extremely insecure, like what's wrong with me? But then there's like, I have to be realistic with myself. It's like, well, it can't always just be me. So I'm like, why wouldn't a grown woman just want to just have sex sometimes. It's something that I thought we could just share and do once a month and that would have been fine. And that at times seemed like that wasn't even an option. Can I ask you something? Yes.

You have a way of personalizing her feelings in a very interesting way it instantly becomes what's wrong with me so that you actually

never have to ask her what would you like what would please you what do you enjoy what is there something I could do for you? Oh, I've asked many times. But not from a place of what am I doing wrong. Yeah.

From a place of curiosity about this particular woman. Sometimes when women don't want sex, it's not because they don't want sex, but they don't want the sex they're going to have. Okay. And that's not just on you. That's also on you. But in order to want sex,

it needs to be sex that is worth wanting. And one thing she has said to you over the years is that your ability to take care of you or to be physically more aware is actually a turn on for her and a draw. As she is trying to do for herself and for you. But you say, this doesn't matter to me. You should want me because I'm a good guy. for herself and for you. But you say, this doesn't matter to me. You should want me because I'm a good guy. You should want me because which woman doesn't want on occasion just to get laid a little bit? I do everything else right.

I work hard for us. Why should I have to, on top of it, be burdened by seduction? Why should foreplay be more than two minutes? And because you don't communicate much, neither of you has ever really said this out loud. So this became just worse and worse and worse. She talks from the place of sex,

that thing I have to give him, I have to deliver to him. You know, you met at 20, but you're not 20, and you still sometimes think like you were in that very early stage of life. And on your end, you create a story in your head that in some way prevents you from taking action, from being proactive, from listening to what she's telling you. Because she has said a lot of things over time everybody has said things over time even the quiet people say things i just don't think they've ever really been heard and i think that you took it as an insult like you were always so insulted and then defensive yeah i mean yeah and then nothing changed but you don't necessarily

go to him and say i want us to have a better sex life and you understand it's like neither of you have approached this i feel sorry for you because you're far down the road but there's so many entry points that have just never been. There's a way of saying, I don't like it. I want something better, different. You know, I want you to make love to me. I don't want to just have sex once a month because we need to get it out of our system. But what you tell him is that he's inept, that you don't like it, but he doesn't have much on which to go. And here we are in this sexual desert that neither of you want. You're both sexual people. How can you say that?

She doesn't. If she keeps telling you, I don't love you the way I think I want to, I don't feel for you what I know I want to feel. Then you know that she's a sexual woman. Listen to her. Who is thinking, I'm 48 years old. Am I ever going to feel like this again? What is going to happen to me? When she says there was such a long list of ways where he didn't meet me and things that I thought would bring energy

into our relationship. Do you recognize that? Do you recognize the story? Absolutely. And I think it's only natural that I try to defend myself from it and I say, we had fun times. We went out. We went to concerts. I was in a band. So when I hear you say that we didn't do these things, you've always only focused on the things that we're not doing.

Yeah, I haven't given you praise. I mean... But you know how I also feel? No. Before you defend yourself, a little acknowledgement will go a long way. We're going back and forth. I get it. For both of you, I think that the places where you recognize,

where you can kind of validate a little bit what the other one is saying, will make a big difference rather than just defending yourself and strengthening your position. But I think he may have a point. I mean, there's something about him saying this over and over again, because those observations say things about you that are a part, the product of your relationship and a part, an expression of who you are. So this goes with you.

When he says there is a focus on the negative and on what's missing and it's skewed, do you recognize it? And that is important to let him know that you know that. So he's not off in his own reality. Right, I do. I recognize this part of me that I'm like, you don't need a pat on the back for doing things that like you should be doing. I know it's terrible, but I'm like, I don't get a pat on the back for cleaning the house. But I do. I mean, the perception is skewed.

Like what you think you're giving off is not what I'm receiving. You know what is so sad? You really let this relationship starve in so many ways. Both of you. I mean, this is not inevitable where you landed. But it is inevitable when you do what you did right the attitude of you know i don't have to say good things for the things that you're expected to do that are obvious you don't raise your kid like that no i don't everybody wants to be encouraged and wants to

be recognized in the efforts they put up at the same time you have the idea that you've been the giver yeah which there's probably something about that but you may not have been as much the giver as you think of yourself having been i'm sure yeah you're right i do recognize that part of me that it's just like you get up you do what you need to do i know that's i know part of who i am. I know that's part of who I am. That's how I function. That's who I am. That's how you were brought up. She's an extremely hard worker.

I'm definitely a little bit more lax on that front. And I'm more of a talker about our feelings. And she's more of a... What feelings? Yeah, like why feel right now? Like let just just go to work why have a feeling stop complaining just get out of bed but you know in good relationship that becomes part of the complementarity and this is where your lens was a little narrow. You put him in the frame of he's safe and reliable and kind, but you didn't put him in the category of,

with this man, I actually can learn that feelings are not just in the department of others. You live with people who have a lot of feelings and you keep yours in check so he's not the version of your mother and your dad but he is a version of the emoting guy he has moods you are deprived of all of that and a part of you is proud of it a part of you says this is who i am and a part of you is proud of it. A part of you says, this is who I am. And a part of you longs for it, but doesn't know how to access it. Because you also experience it as chaotic. And people who live like that, they don't get up in the morning and you need to get up so you don't have time to deal with any of these things. And that part of her, I love. And I had said to you recently, I said,

I fell in love with how strong you are, that you went through all this stuff and you were living on your own and you were paying your own bills. And I met you. And then I had said something that might've been mean where I said, I don't know if it was strength that more of it was just you shutting down and having fear and letting that just take over. But no, it is, it's a combination of both. You're strong, but at the same time, you're afraid of being vulnerable. And I think the vulnerability part is what I've always just maybe strived for. And every time she has been today, you stop it. When she was vulnerable?

Oh, God. I'm sorry. You don't have to apologize. You just can recognize it. It's like, it's scary for you. You would like it, but it's scary for you. You want her to be that, but on the other hand, then who are you going to lean on?

And I think me sometimes being vulnerable is him hearing things he doesn't want to hear. How did you experience her today? Oh, I'm proud of her that she's sitting here and that's what I wanted. I wanted her to open up a little bit and I think she did. She had asked me a week ago, are you going to be okay if when we leave there you're not getting what you maybe want i don't know if that's the way i didn't know what his expectations were i didn't want him to think we were going to come in here and we were going to walk out and be happy happily married again

and i absolutely did not that wasn't my expectation at all and it wasn't about that. And I mean, it's I really care for her. I love her. So if I really, truly believe that I care that you're not getting what you need. I'm not getting what I need out of this. You know, it's still my worst fear that I'm going to like destroy everything, you know. But like I also think like I want you to be happy. I want you to be fulfilled and loved. And I've said this, like I want you to be happy. I want you to be fulfilled and loved. And I've said this, like, I want you to feel all the things that you want to feel.

I just, if I'm being honest with you and myself, I just don't know if it's ever going to be from me. I know. I knew that coming in. I don't want to settle. I don't want to settle. I don't want you to settle. I can't help loving you. I can't. I don't know what it is.

I just don't. Just everything. The stupidest things. So it's hard. It is terribly hard. I wish I could tell you it's not excruciatingly painful, and I can't because it is. That's why we have poetry.

That's why we have love songs. That's why we have the blues. That's why, you know, you were in a band. I don't know what kind of music you played but the type of sad music that would you have sang that song i like those types of songs that i'll probably listen to on the way home which one which one will you listen to give give me one oh gosh remember that song from adele years ago that song makes you want to meet somebody, fall in love with them, and then have them break your heart.

So I'll listen to that one, all right? I'll listen to Adele. In the middle of the session, Astaire got up and came into the producer's room, and she was visibly upset. And she said to us, it just didn't have to be this way. After the couple had left,

I called her, and we talked through why she felt that way. If you're interested in that conversation, and you're an Apple subscriber, you can look for it on Esther's office hours later this week. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. In partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut, our production staff includes Eric Newsom,

Eva Walchover, Destry Sibley, Hyweta Gatana, Sabrina Farhi, Eleanor Kagan, Kristen Muller, and Julian Hatton. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse

Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, Jen Marler, and Jack Saul.