Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - Should I Have Another Baby?

Episode Date: April 6, 2026

When we become parents, many of us quietly promise ourselves that we won't be like our parents. We're going to do it differently. This week’s caller finds herself wrestling with a deeper question: Is her longing for another child born from genuine desire or from defiance? After a traumatic start to motherhood, she's now yearning for another child. But beneath that yearning lies the doubt: Am I doing this for me, or to prove that I’m not like her? Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [e-mail]. Producer’s Note: When our anonymous guests do a session with Esther for the podcast, it is an act of generosity for everyone who listens. These sessions are meant not only to support the people in the room with Esther, but all of us who learn from their stories. Our stories have many chapters, and what you hear is just one moment in someone’s journey. So even though the sessions are anonymous, please remember that real people are behind them and they may be reading your comments. Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In this following session, we discuss assault, and I want you to know this before you listen. Hi, Esther. I am coming to you with a question at an interesting time in my life. I am mother of two beautiful children, three and a half-year-old twins, and I am finding myself and have been finding myself for a long time, longing for another child. This longing is complicated by the fact that I had a very scary and intense and dangerous pregnancy with the twins, a very traumatic birth that has left real scars behind and a period immediately in postpartum where my children were born with health problems that thankfully have been resolved, but there were a few months in the beginning where we did

know if one of my children in particular, if it would have an impact on their length of life. And there were a lot of doctor's appointments and things to figure out related to these health issues that the two of them had. And my question is about how can I move forward with another pregnancy without bringing in a wish that is not fair to a new child that I would have a different experience this time that I would have a more positive experience, an experience that would be in any way joyful, because there was really no joy. Or all of the joy was clouded out by fear in my pregnancy, birth, and postpartum period. And not putting that wish too much on a new life because I don't want to have a child just to try and have a redemptive experience, because

that's not a reason enough to bring a soul into this world. And it's not fair. to that child. So how do I tease out that I think natural hope and wish to have a joyful pregnancy birth or postpartum period without making the wish so big that if it doesn't happen, it will crush me, particularly as I am somebody who experienced abuse and neglect in my childhood and youth. And I've always wanted to be a mother and in some ways, always always. wanted to create the family I never had, and I feel so grateful that I get to do that in so many ways, but my process of becoming a mother was just horrible. It was a nightmare. How can I reconcile all of these things together and move forward because I do want another baby? I would love any help

that you have or any thoughts about this question. Thank you so much. When Westcham first took flight in 1996, the vibes were a bit different. People thought denim on denim was peak fashion, inline skates were everywhere, and two out of three women rocked, the Rachel. While those things stayed in the 90s, one thing that hasn't is that fuzzy feeling you get when WestJet welcomes you on board. Here's to Westjetting since 96. Travel back in time with us and actually travel with us at westjet.com slash 30 years. You're relieving it, huh? Yes. Sure. I don't often talk about it, So it's a new experience in some ways to hear all three things put together. I speak with certain friends about certain snippets of it,

but I don't really ever talk about the whole journey that way. And when you say the three parts for you, they are... Pregnancy, the birth, and postpartum. I had in my head childhood. motherhood and redemptive experience. That's very interesting. That's where I went. It's not any more right than yours, but we can...

It's interesting that it parallels. Because those are the three things you don't often put together either. Right. That's true. Are you making this decision alone, is there a partner in your life? I have a wonderful husband. And he's the father of my twins. And we are hoping we're a third, but we're both very scared. And he is part of the decision, or he says you decide? Or you say I decide. No, it's a decision we make together because it's important to me. We make all our decisions together and especially one like this.

Is it purely an emotional and an existential decision or is there a medical element involved there too? There's a medical element. So you're taking a risk? Is that what? It's hard to say. I was given some bad advice during my pregnancy because the condition I had is not very well understood. And later on in the pregnancy, I got better advice. And that helped. And if we choose to have another baby, then we would be using that advice moving forward. A doctor I saw, said I should refuse the medication.

They were prescribing me. And I was very scared. And so I listened to the doctor. and I kept landing in the hospital and till a doctor asked me, why are you not taking the medication? And I told her and she said, you have to take this medication.

It will save your life. And when I started to take the medication, things got better. So, and it's also hard to say if the medical issue I had was related to the twin pregnancy or if it's something I would experience again. I had a condition called hyperamysis gravidarum.

It's when you can, cannot stop vomiting. It's not morning sickness, it's important to say, but it's very dangerous because some people are vomiting up to 100 times a day. You lose massive amounts of weight. It's very, very serious and it's very horrible because it's not just the vomiting, but the 24-7 nausea. I couldn't eat, I couldn't drink water. I was bedridden. for months, couldn't work. It's really a devastating condition. And there's not a lot of information and people think you're pregnant, so you know, you're vomiting. That's just part for the course. And part of the concern is that this may reoccur? Yes. No, no, it's very serious.

And then what happened after that? What was the postpartum piece about it, or the birth piece, all connected or different things? a bit different. The birth was tricky. I was alone when my water broke. My husband was traveling for business. My sister was here, but it was during COVID, so she wasn't allowed to come to the hospital. When I was admitted, they put me in a room on a hospital gurney, and there was just a water basin and a window with bars on it. And they left me alone for about six hours. Oh, my God. And the only time Sorry.

No, no, no, no. There's nothing to be sorry about. The only time somebody came in was when a midwife came and said that the woman next door was actively pushing and she wasn't even being as loud as I was and I needed to be more quiet. Then she left. And then they came back after about an hour and told me I was getting an epidural and that the anesthesiologist was here. And I needed to get this epidural right now. And after I got the epidural, my husband was allowed to come in.

And things were going well. And then all of a sudden, things changed. And they said that I had a fever, and they drew blood and said I had an infection. And the baby's heart rates weren't good. And they needed to perform a C-section, which I thought, do whatever you need to do. I mean, take them, it's okay, v. Z-section. And when they came out, I was overjoyed. But when I saw one of my children, I really just thought something's not right.

She was so small. She was more of a fetus than a baby. And they took us to the room and they looked at her and they said she's very small. But because of a few grams, she doesn't have to go to the NICU. And I was shocked. I was so happy that she could stay with me. they could both stay with me. And when we went to leave the hospital,

they performed some tests to make sure the babies were okay. And they found that my son had a heart condition. And they told us the name of it, and I obviously never heard of it before. And I just asked, is it fatal? It's all I wanted to know, is it fatal? And the doctor very flippantly said, I mean, not at the moment,

but we'll have to see. how it develops. And I really thought it was going to pass out. And they told us we could leave the hospital, but we had to come back in a few days to see a cardiologist for him. And they didn't give us any information. They told us not to Google it. But they said, here are some things to look out for that would be indications that your son is having a heart attack if he cries a lot or if he sweats when he nurses and we're first time parents to twins we were already so overwhelmed and I I never knew because to top it all off he had colics so whenever he would cry I never knew is he crying because he's hungry or because he's tired or because he's dying he's dying

yeah oh la la and we were at different cardiologists, we were getting referred to different specialists every week, I think, and everyone was giving us different information. So we'd get some good news, and then we'd get some bad news a few days later, and then some good news. And it wasn't until about three and a half months after the birth that a cardiologist said, we can pretty much definitively say that yes, he has this defect that needs to be monitored every few months, but there's no reason. to think that he won't live a full and happy life. That really was one of the best days of my life.

But it was also after three and a half months of terror. As you're telling me, this medical trauma, I kept thinking this is part of what you mean when you say, I don't want to put all of this on another child and say, redeem me from this terrible experience. Exactly. Can I ask you, have you done any EMDR? I haven't, but I'm very interested in it.

You have to go. Okay. I will. You really do, because it's so visceral on you. It's three and a half years later, and it's like breeding and oozing out of you. It's vivid. And you can soften this.

Okay. And no talking, just as talking, will be sufficient. Basically, there are experiences that are almost impossible to put into words. They are visceral, they are physical. Your whole body is reliving this as you're telling it to me. And something in the switching of the laterality, between the two brain hemispheres unlocks this

that is trapped in the amygdala and basically you speak while you're being stimulated in this bilateral way and it unlocks something that's about as mysterious and unarticulate a way I can be about it but

I sometimes know of things that I use useful even when I don't fully understand how it works. But whoever is the practitioner will be able to give you this to in much more articulate way than me. Okay. But don't stay like this. This is kind of the start because for so long I just had to... I tend to them, yes, yes, yes.

And it's really now starting to come up. Because you were in doing, fixing and saving mode. And so you didn't think much about you and what's happening to you and all energy geared onto them, you know. But this wish of having another child is a form of thinking about you. If you spend three and a half years thinking what do they need, what do they need, when you say, I want another child, you basically are allowing yourself for the first time to say, what do I need?

Oh, that's interesting. You know, what do we need you and your husband? But basically it's like for the first time, you're switching the arrow from caring for them and attending to all their needs to saying, and now me. Right. But then you're looking at this and now me and you're saying, what does it represent? Am I putting myself at risk? am I putting my kids at risk?

Am I putting a tremendous amount of weight and tacit expectations onto this other child to give me the experience that I feel was robbed from me? Exactly, yeah, and I don't want to do that. Am I being ungrateful for what I have? Why do I need more? We finally are coming to a place of some equilibrium.

What the hell am I doing? What is it about me that suddenly, you know, at the moment peace can balance and equilibrium can begin to settle, I suddenly want to create a whole other upheaval. Is this wishful thinking? Is this actually realistic? Some people will tell me every pregnancy is different. You know, it's not because it went totally south one way, time that the next time is the same. But I'm going to hear advice in every direction possible.

every person in their experience is going to tell me something different but these are my questions but these are also I think your questions of yourself yeah absolutely we have to take a brief break so stay with us and let's see where this goes support for where should we begin comes from Shopify

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a-l-o-h-a-com. Aloha, taste that grows. And I say, in between is also a period of your saying, okay, I can focus on myself a little bit again and are there other ways I can do so? To start so that I loosen the burden on this unborn child. I don't just feel like the only thing I can ask

is the family I never had. I can have more wishes. This is not a bad one, but I can have other wishes. Right. And the only way to repair isn't just in this way. I may still end up in the same conclusion and say, I'm going for this. And we will decide and we will consult and do all the things we need to do. But there needs to be, from what I'm imagining, a little bit of a space in between.

Right. Yes. Maybe space for you and your husband? Yes, yeah. Maybe space just for you. Maybe space for you and the people who are important in your life that are not your children so that you recreate a more diversified focus. And you will find some of the answers to this question.

You may also say we want a third child, but it doesn't have to come through me. There's many, many ways to have another child in the family. Right. But right now it's tight. Right. It's, I had a shitty family. I dreamt about having the repair family. I thought I was on my way.

It totally derailed. I feel robbed and pissed. But I couldn't even think about that because I had to show up. I'm totally spent. And now that I'm completely spent, I finally can think about having the child that was going to give me the story that I didn't have at the beginning.

Yeah, but I don't want it to feel that way and it feels like a real betrayal of the two children I have and the experience that we had. I don't want that to be... But when you tell me the story as you do, it has that element. I felt it too, you feel it too. We're both hearing the same thing.

Yeah. They're wonderful, they're wonderful, but they didn't give me X. Not they didn't give me, the experience didn't give me. I think I would, it's interesting. When you said that I thought, no, I didn't give me X. It feels like a failure on the part. Okay, okay, good correction, important correction. But it's not almost, it almost feels like it's not clear is she giving herself something or is she punishing herself.

for not having succeeded at this thing. Something is harsh in there. Yes. Yes. You know? That's true. Yes. You have post-traumatic stress.

Okay. You know, you have PTSD from this thing. It's not a word I throw lightly. Okay. You know? You know? You're interesting. Yeah.

Because when you tell me this thing, you're not telling me because you remember it. You're reliving it. You can't even tell it to me in big brush strokes. You give it to me. blow by blow, and you're going from one room to another, and from one image that is carved in your memory and in your body to another. That wasn't intentional. No, that's what PTSD does.

No, no, absolutely not. I know that. It's like every detail matters in the story. That is, to me, one feature. the many features to PDSD, but this is one where you say, wow, it's like, that's it, you're in for the ride, and you're going to get the story as it unfolded, because she's reliving it moment by moment. And that tells me, we need some help here first.

Right. I should say that this idea of having another child is not something we would do for at least another two years. I mean, this is something that's really, but I want to start now. I can feel that it's coming now, and I've noticed it that I want, I don't want to walk around with all of this pain. And I want to give myself, to give my husband in either room without a ticking clock on this to work through it. And how can we work through that when it just feels like it, I just, I feel a lot of, so a lot of guilt and a lot of shame about it. Because I do feel ungrateful. I have two healthy children, and we made it through.

I had a doctor say to me at one point during the pregnancy, other women would kill for your problems. And that's made it really hard to start to work through it because whatever anything would come up while I was going through it. Other than having to, for the reasons of just having to function and get through, I just had that refrain in my head. Other women would kill for your problems. Other women would kill for your problems. Wow. And where is your husband at with this? He lives, because he lived it with you, you know? Yes. He's a lot better at setting boundaries that I am. And he is, he is scared for me, I think primarily what it could do to my health. I think he, well, I don't think I know he's worried that I have a tendency when I want something

and I've decided I really want something not to stop. And that concerns him, understandably, concerns me too. And I think he has said that he could absolutely imagine a third and before we, we had the twins. We had talked about three children, four children. We wanted a big family. So I think the wish is there, but he also has real fear about what it could meet. And I think we would have to have a really very honest conversation about what are our boundaries.

At what point do we make certain choices? What choices are they? What can we live with? What can we not live with? I wouldn't say that I was cavalier at the pregnancy with my life, but I was certainly convinced that I could get through this if I just buckled down and got through it. But now we have two children, and they need their mother.

And that's a different situation. It probably shouldn't be because my life is valuable whether we have kids or not. You know, if you allow me, I would like to change something in how you're... described him. Okay. When you say he's better with boundaries than me, I would say he seems to be better at protecting you than you know to protect yourself.

Oh, Esther. Yeah, that's accurate. Yeah, it's correct. Yeah. You think, because you had to fight through some pretty bad stuff, that you can muscle through anything. Yes. And not just from the pregnancy, but from my life before. Yes, I was talking about you life before. Okay. Yeah. I don't know anything about it, but it doesn't look like it was charming. And so there are two stances in your life. You're either strong and victorious or you're

weak and you get trampled on. Yes. Yes. That's great. What do I need to know about this for our conversation? I'm aware that we're only meeting once and not everything needs and can be told. But I have a feeling that that stuff is part of why the wish to have another child, while the wish to show that you really can to defy, there's a defiance in this. Yeah, for sure. There's a desire and there's a defiance. Yeah, I hadn't even thought about that, but it's absolutely true. Yeah. Yeah. I think the best example of that would be at some point in my life. There was somebody, my life who was hitting me pretty viciously, pretty regularly. And it came to a point where I thought my life is really in danger here because this person is using me as a stress release valve. It's not based on any behavior. There's no rivalry.

reason. It's, it's, there's an enjoyment to it. And I thought, I have to, I have to stand up for myself and I have to think of something to say, because I'm not going to be able to do it in the moment. And I'm going to say it the next time it starts and I went to this person and when they started and I said, the next time you hit me, I will hit you back. And this person never hit me again. How old? 16. And that was really pivotal in my life because I thought

sometimes you have to gather a crazy amount of resources and strength and courage and just bust through the wall and do the thing and say the thing that you don't think you can do. And you have to

get the other person to back off. And you can do it, but you have to believe you can do it, and you have to do it with a resolve, or you're going to be in danger. Do you see her? Yeah.

You just saw her as you were talking. Yeah. Yeah. I'm proud of her. Yes. Absolutely. And I remember I thought, make yourself as big as you can before we don't make yourself get up on your toes. And it just breaks my heart to think about.

child thinking about how do I make myself physically intimidating enough to get somebody to stop hitting me. Who was it? But I'm proud of her. Who was it? Who was it? It was my mother. And maybe there's a part of me that wants to prove that I'm a better mother than she was.

That's why I asked you who it was. Yeah. But I can not only will not hurt my children, but I won't hurt my children, but I won't. a dear hurt for my children, the opposite of her in that way. Even though I know that she's a complex person, she wasn't all horrible. She had her own trauma, and I've done a lot of work, and she's done a lot of work in the meantime. But in this way, you know, some people say they understand their parents more. Once they become parents, I understand my parents less.

And I told her one time I don't even... Honestly, I don't blame you even for hitting me once. I blame you for hitting me more than once. I blame you for not realizing I need help and this could never happen again or something, anything. I don't have her life and I don't have her limitations. And at the same time, I can't imagine harming one of my children intentionally. I can't imagine saying the things or doing the things that were done to me. said to me, I know that she carries her own trauma that's unresolved and I know how that cycle

perpetuates. It's what I mean years before I even got pregnant I went to therapy and worked with a therapist for two and a half years on my childhood and this trauma because I did not want to leave this unresolved before I had children of my own. We are in the midst of our session. there is still so much to talk about. So stay with us. Support for where should we begin comes from Masterclass.

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Get 10% off your first order sitewide with code ester at Oseaamalibu.com. We started this track because I said, it's not that your husband is more boundary, is that he is more protective of you than you sometimes know to be. And you said, when my mother would hit me and not just because she was stressed, but because it felt sadistic.

That's what I understood. It was inside your sentence. I, one day, pumped up my chest, made myself bigger than I ever was, more fearless than I ever was, and basically stood up to her and said, you hit me once more, I hit you back. And this illusion of power saved me.

But I carry this illusion of power inside of me. Oh, yes. And I live with this sense that I can handle anything. And I can defy the giants or the forces of evil or whatever. therefore I need really to ground myself in reality when I say I want another child because I can't make that decision from a position of illusion of power I can talk my way into terrible situations and save my skin yes this is a different story and I have two little smirfs who I need to protect.

Yes. And I may be protecting them because I don't hit and all of that, but I also need to protect them by not embarking on something. Yes. Very true, yeah. So it's this criteria. You have time, you're not in a rush, but it's on your mind, and when something is on your mind, you dig.

You dig in. Yes. It's like it becomes this idea fix. And now you're going to by hook on by crook, you're going to find a way to make this possible.

You're going to hear what you want. You're going to filter what you don't want. You're going to create the narrative that sustains it. You're going to take your power and convince your husband. You're going to stand up to all the people who say nay.

You're going to reinforce all the people who say yay. It's a whole mise en sen, you know, it's an entire elaboration of how we get ourselves to a place like this. This is what, when people say, how did you think? Because it's a slow process of putting all the pieces. Yeah. And what would happen if you lay flat for almost a year? Can you do that with you two little ones?

It's not just the problems of birth, huh? It's the whole thing. So you're right. What are the creative ways we can think about having many children? I mean, how do we, it may not be the story we originally imagined. But if we want more children, more children we can have. But I do, as you said, you know, so much of, at the heart of this whole conversation is outdoing my mom. proving to myself that I'm really different, that I'm really better.

Yeah. So there is an act of defiance. And that's also not, I don't want to have a child from a place of defiance. It's not a good thing. But I feel a lot of frustration that it's yet another thing that I feel that I feel that I want for myself that I have to question because I don't know how long shadow is that she's cast. Do I do what I do because I want to do it or do I want to do it because I want to prove to her, prove to myself?

But you have that with other things too, I imagine, right? Or is that primary? Oh, yes. And how do you deal with it in other situations? It's a great question. Do I do what I do because I really want it, or do I want it because I need to prove to myself that I'm not like her? The core of differentiation lies in that question. It's tricky.

The way that I approach things is if I have a decision to make, because we are in contact. I don't tell her about it until I've made the decision because I don't want her input and I don't want to be thinking about what her input might be. And I make a decision and then I tell her what the decision is. And I try and think about, I'm trying more and more because I do have a wonderful husband who asks me these questions. There's a saying in our language, not everything that you can. can do you must do. And it's okay to know that you could do something, but still not do it. And what language is that? That's German. Okay. My husband, we talk sometimes about the way we make decisions and how they're different.

And we'll be at the starting line and I'll look to the castle and he'll look to the castle and then he'll look at what's between him and the castle and he'll make the decision based on that whether he wants to get to the castle. And I look at the castle and I don't care about what's in between the castle and me. I just get there and he tries to encourage me to think about what it entail. Is that something you really want

or is it something you're trying to prove? And I've walked away from things more recently in my life, like work things. And I've been listening to that voice more saying, it's just too much. It's okay. It's not a failing. It's just too much.

And not all of us can most. I think I've just also been worried about, I want to make sure that other people know that I'm not my mother as well. And maybe in some ways I'm trying to prove that her influence is not something that I suffer under. It's another piece of defiance of, you know, I can live this life that I have and do these things. And I'm not going to let that hold me back. One of the ways that we express our difference from our parents, in this case from your mom, is not in huge decisions. It's in the every day.

Yeah. it's actually in the details but as you were talking because we're arriving to the end of our conversation I thought it would be very interesting for your husband to listen to this conversation

yes and then for us to have a conversation together yes I agree that would be very interesting if he's open to it and if you're open to it of course

of course of course It's incredibly amazing. But there's a sequence here, right? One, pieces, you go and you do some EMDR. And two is you actually take some time to explore the space between you and the castle. Okay. I will.

And three is you separate between desire and defiance. That's your question. Do I want it because it's me, or do I want it because I'm proving something? As in how much influence does she have over my life that she doesn't even know she has? Right. I may not call her when I have to make a decision, but that's not because of her. That's because of what she represents inside of me. Right.

And I spend a lot of time, as you say, working on this in therapy. But things come back, and you're right, things come back when you become a parent, and you start to see yourself in the age of your children. Right. Because it's one thing when you say I was four years old, it's another thing when you see the four-year-old or the three-and-a-half-year-old. Yes. And I say, oh, wow, I was so young, I was so little.

And this is what happened, and that is what happened. Right. I think about that a lot. I feel such love for my child. children at this age that I just, it helps me feel love for myself at that age, to be honest. And I think it's a good sign that I'm asking this question and that I'm thinking about it and not just doing it and running straight ahead. And the next thing is this idea that your pregnancy and your birth was somehow a failure.

Right. I wish we had more time together, but that too is like, oh, If we start from there, it gets very complicated to really know whether you want it, whether it's possible, and whether it should. Right. Not everything that is possible must be. Thank you for allowing me to meet you. Oh my goodness. It's a great privilege for me.

Okay. Thank you. Thank you so much for the session of Esther. Thank you. This was an Esther calling, a one-time intervention phone call, recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Esther, could be answered in a 40 or 50-minute phone call,

send her a voice message, and Esther might just call you. Send your question to, producer at esteraparell.com. Where should we begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise? We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julianette. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider.

And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.