Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - Speak to Me in French

Episode Date: October 8, 2017

[Contains mature themes] A husband and wife met while deeply committed to the evangelical faith and didn’t kiss until their wedding day; for her, that kiss felt like “kissing her brother.” Esther gets creative in an effort to help them create a new sexual relationship. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What you're about to hear is an unscripted, one-time couples counseling session. It contains mature themes and listener discretion is advised. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real. We met each other in college, in opera scenes workshop, actually. Our director kept putting us in scenes together, and by the end of the term, we finally figured out that, oh, that romantic thing that you were doing, well, that was actually real.

That wasn't just acting. Desire and attraction, that has never been there for us. And we were part of what was called the evangelical purity culture movement of the late 90s. We have changed our views since then. We're both spiritual sort of people. I guess I tend more toward the atheistic side now. But it was really important to us to remain pure until marriage. My husband and I didn't kiss until we got engaged. And the night that I got engaged,

I kicked him. And even though my heart and my head knew I was totally in love with this man, my body was screaming, no, this is not right. We're two survivors of childhood sexual abuse who managed to find one another, get married, and then find out that we were sexually mismatched. But not only that, we were sort of, you know, each of us within our own cauldron of sexual confusion and dysfunction. Anytime I try to have sex with him, I feel like I'm forcing myself. It feels incestuous. Two years ago, my adult sexuality came bursting out. I ended up realizing that I really loved sex. I just did not love sex with my husband.

She would like sex to be much more energetic. I'd like it to come out of a place where I feel safe. I'm not willing to walk away from my marriage. But what I need to know is, can we learn to be attracted to one another? So when I listen to this couple I am imagining that sex for these two people at this point has become a subject that is so fraught, that is mired in pain,

in trauma, and that is very serious. And that from that place, not much change can come. So I'm thinking, how do I guide them to at least one experience where sexuality for them

can be experienced with lightness, with fun, with joy. People come in with a story. At the end of the first session, I want them to live with a different story. Because a different story is what breeds hope, is what gives them the sense of possibility. And this is Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel. You need a new perspective. Otherwise, it's going to be one more interesting chat, but with no movement.

And then you start to feel more hopeless each time. So I want a tiny bit more info, just so I have a sense of what you've done, because I understand I'm not the first person you're speaking with. But I also had this idea that maybe you would do the entire session as two options. One is you change names. And I thought since you sing, right?

Yeah. You could speak with different accents. But you need to become different people in play. Or I blindfold you. Or I ask you to close your eyes, basically. And you do the entire session without looking at each other. Which one do we? You can say no to all the above, of course.

I will change names, but I would also kind of curious to blindfold because I am so, I people please a lot by getting people's facial reactions. So I'm like looking at you for every single reaction, trying to judge it all. And if I was blindfolded, maybe I would be able to hear things in a different way. That's exactly the way I thought of it. I thought, how do I change your perspective? And if it gets uncomfortable or inane, we stop. Just the first thing I think about when I see stuckness is, where do I introduce something

completely new? Since she always sees him in a certain way. She sees him as this man that is like this. I thought, what if I close her eyes? She'll see something else. And in fact, she'll have to listen more. She'll have to sense more.

She'll have to experience touch more. So that was really that. How do I change the perception? Oh, it'd be so interesting. What would happen if I closed her eyes for an entire session? So she had the scarf on her until almost till the end. Close your eyes. Put that thing on. I'll help you. Thank you. Well, I can certainly do the first option. The changing names?

Yeah, because I have a character. This actually happened spontaneously. There's one night he just started speaking to me in French, and we called this character Jean-Claude, and it's everything that I wanted from a partner. He's very arrogant and sexy, and we've been playing with this for a couple of months now, and it's really helped a lot. But it's to the point where I'm just like can Jean-Claude

come home? Can Scott stay outside? And I think you've gotten a little, is it fair to say you're a little jealous of Jean-Claude? I don't often bring him out spontaneously or without an invitation because it's not the person that I inhabit but it's a person that I would like to inhabit more and in my individual therapy my therapist tries to encourage me to inhabit that character more but that character has no sexual hang-ups that character has no none of the problems that that I face. That is fantastic. But half of the problem with it is that she

doesn't understand anything that I'm saying. Which means... On s'en fout. As they say, who cares? I know, right? It doesn't matter. She doesn't have to understand. She energetically gets you.

It is actually wonderful. D'accord. And I will do the translation. Thank you. But in a way, she doesn't need the words because she's going to sense you differently. She's going to see you differently. By not understanding the words, she's going to understand you. She's going to understand you.

She's going to understand you. She's going to understand you. She's going to understand you. She's going to understand you. She's going to understand you. She's going to understand you. She's going to understand you. She's going to understand you. She's translation. Thank you. But in a way, she doesn't need the words because she's going to sense you differently. She's going to see you differently. By not understanding you, she will actually see you differently.

She has already. She will feel you differently. And all of that is equivalent to communication. So, bonjour Jean-Claude. equivalent to communication. So... Bonjour Jean-Claude! Bonjour, Esther. It's like the French lesson, you know? Il est un peu nerveux. Bien sûr, bien sûr.

Le plus important, the most important thing, is that Jean-Claude is as real to you as God. But Jean-Claude, one cooks, one makes love. One speaks one way, one speaks the other way. One holds himself in a certain tightness, the other one, as you say, has no hang-ups. And he lives inside of you. And if you can play him, then you are him. And you get to experience him.

And you bifurcate the entire stuckness. Do you have another name too? Oh, sometimes he calls me Jacqueline when we're in the French. Oh, super. When he is different, he calls you by a different name too. That's it.

We're done. You can go. And then I feel that people have given me the permission. They trust me. They trust me and they say, take us out of this mess. Help us.

And I feel that that permission emboldens me. It allows me to then say, we're going to be and I want safe familial Scott to hold my hand during this right now. And this is our problem. Too much cozy. Not enough. Not enough difference. You're welcome to go reach out for his hand, but you may find the hand of Jean-Claude. They're not so separate. One dangerous, one safe.

Maybe Jean-Claude is safe too. You've got it completely divided. Totally. So, it's right. You know, when you are touching a Jean-Claude, it's a different grip. Scott usually has this lethargic, limp, kind of no support. But with a Jean-Claude, I feel you gripping my hand differently. I feel like my hand can relax in yours. It's very different from the way you normally hold my hand. You make me feel very strong. And as soon as I hear your accent, I get all giddy and I shiver a little bit.

He feels powerful and strong. I love that. That's what I've always wanted for you. I've always wanted to be the one where you could be the one in charge and I didn't have to be. It's a bit difficult for Scott to relinquish. De lâcher prise. Relâcher prise du pouvoir. Scott struggles to let go. Et Jean-Claude?

Il est sûr de soi-même. He's confident, Jean-Claude. Jean-Claude sait toujours ce qu'il veut, ce qu'il va faire. Et c'est tellement pas Scott, c le... The basement. Dans la cave. Dans la cave. Yep. Oui, fait-moi accueillir dans la cave.

He has been locked up in a basement with a key. And explain to me who had the key. Who locked him up, or why did he lock himself up? Ma mère. My mother. Ma mère et mon père mother and my father. And my father. Now you're talking as Scott, so you can say it in English.

My mom shut down my sexuality when I was just coming into it and made it clear that I was not to be like my father, who enjoyed sex. I was not to be like other men, who I think must have demanded sex of her. I was to be the good boy. I was to be the perfect husband. And she made me into something of a surrogate husband,

oversharing. And I, in response to that, shamed myself whenever I felt sexual and tried to be only intellectual. In fact, I shut down all of my emotions. So you became part of the purity movement? Yes. The church, it gave you... The church gave me a place of safety where other people were supporting me in not being sexually active, where it was sacred to be non-sexual before marriage.

I mean, I became part of the religion mainly because it was a source of friends. It was a source of people who were like-minded who wanted to be good and who sanctified goodness above all else. So here's one thing I want to challenge. Scott good, Jean-Claude bad. Because that's more of the same. It is.

I want you to imagine good and sexual. Because if you're going to use this very interesting line of sex is bad and dirty, but save it for the one you love. How do you make Jean-Claude sexual, adult, responsible, and good? Scott wants to be a good boy. And Jean-Claude is a bad boy. Jean-Claude is a bad boy. Well, that's good because I like bad boys. Scott doesn't like bad boys.

Scott doesn't like bad boys and Jacqueline loves the bad boys and a part of why sometimes a woman likes the bad boy is not because she likes to be very very clear it's not because she likes the man to be a predator, but it's because the bad boy, as you described, knows to take care of himself perfectly well. Thank you. And so he frees her from having to feel responsible for him, for having to worry about him, from having to experience his anxiety. And so since he can let go and is in his pleasure, it frees her up to be in her pleasure. Yes. You want to put this in your own words, Madame Jacqueline?

So often I feel like I'm editing myself around you sexually. I feel like if I breathe wrong, if I move wrong, if I'm too playful, if I'm too strong, that I will turn Scott off because that is what has happened. And I feel like when you are Jean-Claude, when you are connected to your passion and your badness, I feel like I am free to bring all of who I am. Jean-Claude, would you say you believe me? Jean-Claude, would you say you believe me? Jean-Claude wants you to trust him? Jean-Claude wants you to know that he is holding your hand.

Can you handle all of me? Jean-Claude can hold you. Jean-Claude can hold you. Jean-Claude can withstand the force of your desire. Jean-Claude doesn't feel threatened by it. You don't have to worry with Jean-Claude that you've held back for so many years. He's got you. I would love to believe that that is true. But wait, I need to check if that fits him.

I think so. Yes? Yes, I think so. It's a small part of all of my being. It's a small part, or it's a part of who I am, and yes, it fits. But the fear that I'm too much is not about him. That's an old script from childhood

because I was too much for my entire family. So your fear that you are too much and therefore you have to hold back, which you have now transferred onto he can't handle me and then made it his issue because he's too fragile which you have now transferred onto, he can't handle me, and then made it his issue because he's too fragile and I have to protect him and therefore I have to mother him and I have to hold back. You're putting on him a fear that is yours.

And the fantasy is if I felt and if I was with somebody hugely powerful, then I won't be too much. It's like the bigger they are, the more they can take me on versus maybe not too much. You have no idea on some level. So tell me about the I was too much at home. As a child? Oh, I was the black sheep of the family. I was too much at home. As a child? Oh, I was the black sheep of the family.

I was too loud. I was too outspoken. And any time I did voice my opinions, I was verbally and emotionally abused to the point where I was just terrified to feel what I feel, to express what I feel, because it would just come with such a big smackdown. And it's been great being with Scott because he's been the first person

who has made it safe for me to talk about these truths with the exception of sexuality. In sexuality, I feel like I have tried to bring more of my wild side to you. And Scott... To him. Sorry? Scott isn't here right now. Oh, sorry.

Jean-Claude. I love that you can... You brought your wild side to Scott and things didn't go well. But right now in this room, you're talking with Jean-Claude. Jean-Claude. Working with role play in therapy

has a long tradition that comes from psychodrama that was started by Moreno. We have a tendency to get stuck in our role, in our own view of things, in the way I see us. A couple that has been together for a long time can often recite the other person's lines by heart. By now, they know exactly what the other one's going to say. And so you use role

play to increase empathy. You use role play to step outside of the narrowness of one's own perspective. You use role play to give people the option to actually tell the other person what they would like to hear from them. Jean-Claude, I so want to open myself up to you. I want to bring everything of who I am to you and have you meet it with your energy. But can you, can your spirit dance with mine? Can you not care if you look silly when you dance? Will you just dance with me anyway? Can you not care how droopy we get as we get older? Can you still look at me with lust for the spirit that's inside of me? Can you not shame me for the fact that I have wild fantasies and want to act them all out and

that I'm not even remotely conservative like my family would like me to be. Can you not shame me for that? Can you say, these are the things I love about you, as opposed to the things I want to punish you for? Thank you. Monsieur. Monsieur. Madame. Madame, je voudrais faire tout ça avec toi, comme tu es. I want to do all of this with you, the way you are.

Are you sure? Comme Jean-Claude, oui. Comme Jean-Claude? Yes. Like Jean-Claude. Jean-Claude. Yes. What Jacqueline needs to hear, what Jacqueline, I think, needs to hear from you, is that it is okay for her

to bring out the full spectrum of her sexuality and that it won't be shamed or vilified or used or abused as it was. There is no greater vengeance than to be the most happy one can be. There is no greater vengeance against sexual abuse than to reclaim one's full sexuality and celebrate it. And this woman would like to celebrate with you. But when you have created together the family

that you both didn't have, it feels like you can't bring that lustfulness home. So how do you bring lust home and how do you put the ex back in sex? Jean-Claude brings the ex and Jacqueline brings the ex. So imagine Jacqueline reaching out to this Frenchman of yours. Il est grand, il est beau. He's tall, he's gorgeous. He knows what he wants. He's quite confident. He knows what he wants and what he wants is you.

When he strokes your hand, he's not making sure if he's doing it right. He's doing what he enjoys. if he's doing it right. He's doing what he enjoys. As he's doing right now. So breathe this in, Jacqueline. It's very different from the way Scott touches me. There's nothing tentative about Jean-Claude's touch. Jean-Claude touches with tenderness but intention. There's a certain pressure without force.

There's no clumsiness. It's beautiful. It's what I've always wanted. Merci. C'est différent parce que je te touche pour mon plaisir. Super. It's different because when I touch you as Jean-Claude, I touch you for my pleasure.

And yet I feel more pleasure because of it. Yes. It's so different. You are listening to Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel. We'll be back in a minute. Now, back to Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel. What they don't know is how to make the transition from not hurting to enjoying. That's the work.

And a lot of the work on sexual trauma is often very good at healing the break and at putting on the cast and even at removing the cast. But it doesn't do the re-education afterwards. The re-education afterwards is the joy, the openness, the play, the freedom, the pleasure. de plaisir. Je te touche comme je veux être touché de toi. Je te touche comme je veux être touché

de toi. Je te touche sans peur de être selfish. Oui? Oui, c'est ça. Et sans la peur de de la critique. Et je te touche sans peur de... de critiquer. Et je te touche sans avoir peur de être critiqué.

Je te touche comme j'aime te toucher, c'est-à-dire que je reste à l'intérieur de moi-même et je me connecte avec toi. Il a juste tourné les yeux en disant oui, oui, oui. Il y a un gars nautique là-bas. just rolled his eyes as saying, yes, yes, yes. There's a naughty guy in there. Way more mischief than the world has ever met. Ah, bien sûr. Ah!

Bien sûr. I saw the way you stroked her as Jean-Claude. It's all inside of you. You are not incompatible, mismatched in everything you wrote on the paper. I don't know where you got that story, but it's not. You don't know what stuff goes into this guy's head, but it may not be nearly that different from yours. And now all my stuff is coming up. while i desire closeness there's another part of me that's like get the hell away from me like there's there's there's protective walls that are like

okay this was nice too much closest you go over there she has that moment of crosswire between come come on to me take me be strong but then the moment he actually does this because of who he is and the transference she has it then switches into i'm subjugated and i just have to take it and now we're in the trauma mode so he becomes the man she wants him to be and he has the power she wants him to have but then it becomes he's having power over her so So at any second, the story can jinx with the overlays of their respective childhood stories. Every second, it is a miracle these people manage to have sex on occasion. I hate needing you because I just want to feel independent.

I don't want to need anyone. I feel like I have to apologize for everything that I am. That I'm never enough. That I'm never beautiful enough. I'm never thin enough. I'm never talented enough. I don't say the right things. I'm too sexual.

I'm too opinionated. I hurt you all the time. Then stop speaking. Stop speaking. That was Scott. That was not a Jean-Claude kiss. Alright, let's do it again. Okay.

In French, it will be easier. And don't speak anymore. Just be yourself. What does that mean? Don't speak and just allow yourself to be you. I felt like I was kissing a different person. That's a different kiss than what I normally get. I liked it. Shut the fuck up. Hmm.

Ella. Do you feel better? Better? You feel okay? But why is this different? I have been begging you for this for years. You can't do that. Can't do what? You know, it's like kiss me, kiss me, kiss me. I'm dying for you to kiss me.

And when he finally kisses you, you say, what took you so long to kiss me? Yep. And this is the place where you need to challenge and just say, you're not invited here in this moment. And yet Jacqueline wants to be an adult. Jacqueline wants to find her sexuality and express it. And there's this war. Then I also understood that the struggle is actually, at that moment, the struggle is more with her. It goes back and forth. You know, one minute one of them manages,

but then the other one. And she was extremely honest and saying I'm not there I am I'm in this war I'm in this battle inside my head I want I don't want can I trust is this the first time you own this besides instead of all putting it on him no no I've noticed this for the past what year or so I feel like I've owned this but I think that it's I'm realizing now that I can bring Jacqueline outside to other people

but to Jean-Claude to Scott no there's these huge walls of fear. Right. But if you can bring

that part of you to other men that's not because he doesn't have it. It But if you can bring that part of you to other men, that's not because he doesn't have it. It's because you can't do it with him. Are we clear on that? Mmm.

Jean-Claude has only recently come into the picture. That is true. And the other things I've experienced for the majority of our relationship has been different.

It has been where I have exposed myself and more my true self and it was met with condemnation and shame and anger and shut down. So I have very good reasons for why I feel the way I do. It's not all my fault. Not at all. Thank you. Thank you. He's nodding his head. So he's in agreement with you. Do you need

Scott to acknowledge something? Do you need Scott to make amends? Yeah. That was said without a doubt. So, have you ever? I guess not to the extent that she needs i think i've acknowledged that i have my own problems no be actually much more specific when i said or did this when i tell you sometimes when we're making love or trying to that you're too much or that I can't handle what you're asking me for,

you must feel so unseen and so unwanted. And I'm sorry for that. Thank you. I've not felt safe or welcome to bring my false self to you. Well, Scott's a pretty emasculated person. What happens to him? What happens when she makes even a simple request? He feels obligated to fulfill it to the detriment of his own pleasure. He doesn't take care of himself. And then he loses interest in sex because he's not taking care of his own needs.

So fulfilling the needs of a strong woman has been a big theme. Strong or needy? Is there a difference? Telling the needs of a strong woman has been a big theme. Strong or needy? Is there a difference? My mother. Yeah, my mother was both strong and needy. That's true. So for me there has not been a difference.

So when I see strength I also impute need or neediness. You with somebody else at those moments. Sure. Yeah. No, there's definitely a different version of her inside of my head at those moments. Right. You're her father and she's your mother. Uh-huh.

Yeah. Who wants to have sex in the family? Exactly, right? It feels incestuous. I've always complained about that. I sometimes want to hit you because I just can't stand what I feel. It feels icky. Icky? Yes, it feels icky.

And it doesn't feel icky to me. The closeness and the cuddling and the things that to her feel like family, to me, that's where my sexuality begins. It comes out of a feeling of closeness and intimacy and then, oh, now let's be sexual. And then we're cuddling on the couch and you try to make it sexual. And I'm like, oh, don't do this. Don't do it. Don't. Don't make it, don't fall, I just, I get so resentful that you've taken this moment that felt safe and nurturing

and turned it sexual. Whereas I want to be sexual from a place of anger and mystery and separateness. You went on sex with Jean-Claude. Yes. Right. And he? Who rides a motorcycle and, you know, has a lot of different women and a few men and is very independent and is not tied down to anyone and simply uses people for his pleasure. I'm going to challenge that. That's a caricature of Jean-Claude.

Okay. And that's why I want you to think good and sexual. When you hold her hand before, when you hold her face before, it is utterly caring. But also very present and also very pleasure-focused. I prefer to be Jean-Claude. I prefer to be Jean-Claude. But Jean-Claude can give too. Can he?

Jean-Claude can also give. Yes, yes. Are you flirting with her? No. No, only with you. Only with you. And all I feel bubbling up are all these excuses of why I can't be Jacqueline and why it's wrong and why you can't let that out.

Okay. Is there music Jacqueline likes? She loves French music. Edith Piaf. Any particular song? Je ne regrette rien. Yes, yeah. Does she sing it? I don't sing it in French, so I don't know it. And as they told me that it was a song by Piaf and it was Non, Je Ne Regrette Rien,

I knew the song for one. And so I had my moment of recognition. And then I did something that I never do, I sang. qu'on m'a fait ni le bien tous l'âme est bien égale It's actually very apt for what you've experienced. Do you know what she's saying? No regrets, right? I regret not the bad, the evil that was done to me. The pain that was caused to me. That's why I'm singing it for you.

So here's gonna be your challenge. When she gets upset, which is totally normal, you will learn to comfort each other as adults and not as one child and one adult. Jean-Claude can comfort, he can tell her a few things, and we don't have to go and spend the entire evening there. And then we need a different song. I'm sorry could be piaf but it could be

this way because we're not gonna sing trauma it's almost like there's a switch inside of me that I allow the child to feel the pain, but I don't always allow the adult to feel pleasure. So what you want is to help each other stay. Stay with these other parts of you that are, they're there. They just don't, they have not been given much permission. So don't make a long speech. Just basically say, I'm having unwanted guests. given much permission. So don't make a long speech. Just basically say, I'm having unwanted guests.

Or something very short that just cues, help me stay. Help me be in the present. Go put some lipstick. If you start to wander away and I feel you, I can call you back. I would like that. And you can call me out. You can call me out of the forest. So when the wires get crossed, you simply tell him, speak to me in French.

Speak to me in French. This was an adult version of imaginary play. The therapy itself is a new experience, closer to the one that the people want to have. It mirrors it. Of course, it's not a one session only. I know they can go home and lose it, which is why I said, you know, you're going to slip. It's how you teach people to stay in the story.

Another story, because they're in the story. They're just in a stuck story of their life about to divorce. This couple doesn't need to divorce at all. At all. This is a couple that has everything in them to claim this part of them. They deserve it. They're entitled to it. Esther Perel is the author of Mating in Captivity, Unlocking Erotic Intelligence,

and her new book, The State of Affairs, Rethinking Infidelity. Both are available on Audible. For more episodes of Where Should We Begin, go to audible.com slash Esther. And if you're interested in being a part of the series, or to sign up for Esther's newsletter, go to estherperel.com. Where Should We Begin is an Audible Original Production. Produced by Olivia Natt and Eva Wolchover. Produced and sound designed by Paul Schneider.

Recorded by Noriko Okabe. Our executive producers are Esther Perel and me, Jessie Baker. Eric Newsom is our big boss, and we couldn't do this without Lindsay Rutowski and June Cohen. This is Audible.