Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - Terms & Conditions May Apply: What We All Need to Know About Modern Dating

Episode Date: June 2, 2025

Dating often comes with a lot of questions. Who gets to say what they want? Who gets to be chosen? Who gets to choose? Should I stay on/off the apps? How much do I share, when, and how? This week, Esther gets set up on a blind date of sorts with three people, all deeply invested in the world of modern dating, to talk through what it's like out there and how she can help them navigate IRL dates. Topic: Dating & Romantic Consumerism Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Dating is a phase in the life of relationships and in the life of people that is crucial. How do we date? Where do we date? What are the protocols, the rituals of dating in different cultures? Who gets to say what they want? Who gets to be chosen? Who gets to choose? How do we swipe? It's like a portal when you say the word dating and some of you are currently dating and some of you are just so fatigued that you want to go cold turkey and others are wondering maybe I should go back and start dating again and some of you are in a relationship wondering what would it be like? What's it like out there if I was to leave?

So dating puts us directly in touch with a host of questions about our relationships, what we seek there, how we see ourselves, how we connect to each other. And I'm here on a blind date with three people who are currently dating. Each with a completely different story, each at a different stage of their life. Some looking for partnership and lifelong relationships, hopefully, and some looking to have a good time. Some enjoy it, some dread it, and everything in between. And part of app dating, digital dating,

allows us to meet an enormous amount of people that we would never have had a chance to meet. And at the same time, the excess choice, the enormous amount of possibilities, the paradox of choice, the inability to just see one person emerge from this whole lot of people, brings fatigue, brings numbness, and brings a certain kind of desocializing, you know, where we begin to treat each other in ways that are very unkind,

make us feel not really respected, esteemed, treated as a human being. And sometimes we are on the receiving end of this, and sometimes we are on the doing end of this, as you can hear from some of the people in the conversation. So let's talk about dating. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Ferragamo. Fatherhood can express enduring love and ongoing support, marking the important milestones as well as creating small moments to cherish. This year, you can celebrate your bond with the father in your life with a pair of Ferragamo shoes.

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Free your team from expense reports today. Switch your business to ramp.com. Hi, hi. Hello. Hello, welcome everyone. Thank you. Yes, yes. You haven't had a chance to meet, right? No, not yet. So we're all on a blind date. Yes, ma'am. Can you just introduce yourselves? Where are you from? How old you are? if you've had long-term relationships,

but just to have a sense of what have been your experiences with relationships as a whole, rather than just our focus today on dating. Should I go first? Go ahead. So my name is Louis. I'm in my late twenties. I work in accounting.

And when it comes to dating, I was originally born in Africa, I work in accounting. And when it comes to dating, I was originally born in Africa in Cameroon. I moved to the US when I was in my early twenties. And that's when I first came out as gay, obviously, and started dating. I have been in one long relationship about a year and a half. I have had several dates that last for about three to six months on average. So that's pretty much my experience so far.

I'm Allie. I live just outside of Boston. I'm 47 years old. I grew up in Saudi Arabia and I moved to the US when I was 15. And I met my now very much ex-husband when I was 23. We were together for a long time. We were married for about 10 years before that came to sort of a screeching halt.

And I've been divorced for maybe five years now-ish, and I've had one longer term relationship in that time. Yes, Douglas. Yes. Hello. My name is actually not Douglas. It's a very difficult Korean name that most people can't say and Douglas is my alias. I'm from Korea, obviously.

I moved a bit more than a year ago to Los Angeles because I got a job out here. And since then, I have been looking for a long-term partner or a romantic relationship because before then, I'd always known that I was gonna move away at some point. So I didn't really pursue that actively. And since getting here, I've been really at it. Since then, I have met one person who I went out with for a few months before she broke it off. It's been interesting. I've learned a lot. Do you meet people in person? How do you go about it? This is a verb, suddenly, you know,

dating. And by the way, does the word exist in Korean? No, that's a good point, Tess. Does the word exist in French? Louis? Yes, I would say. Rendez-vous, sortir. Yeah, but that's not a verb. And does the verb exist in Arabic? Not as a verb. Right. Because there is something, of course everybody now does it in the same way,

but as a verb it doesn't translate in many other languages. There is no such a thing as dating. You meet people, you go out, you see someone, you've met someone, you're interested in someone, but you're not on a mission. Dating is an active verb that seeks an outcome. So I mean, there's a lot of things to say about how this has become an activity rather than a rendez-vous, rather than an encounter.

So if I asked you one thing about your last date that stood out for you, or datings, doesn't have to be one, but what has kind of carried you, or stayed with you in your recent dating? stayed with you in your recent dating? Hmm. I've noticed that it's very difficult to stay in touch with someone, even if they're very nice and potentially very compatible with me, if there's no some kind of attraction in the earlier stages. And I've been finding it difficult to feel attracted to other people on my dates. Yeah, so I'm noticing that about myself and seeing what I can do about it.

Louis? Okay, so for my most recent date, so to me, dating is a bit of a pattern, if you ask me, and I also had experience to ask most of my friends. So it always goes from the really, really high, like high emotions, high attractions. And then it just fades out or drops suddenly. So that's kind of how it usually goes most of the time.

And something that stands out for me on most of the days I go to it's not necessarily connection But it's the interaction that I have with the person It's the way they they present themselves It's the way they make me want to present myself and they make me want to interact with them So I feel like every single time is it always different? so it's It's always different. So it's always different, but at the same time, it has like kind of like a vibration kind of a way

of going every single time, if it makes sense. So Douglas says, I struggle to get to feel any attraction on many of the dates I go to. And you say, I actually have splurges of attraction, but it fizzles out very quickly. Yes. And what's something that you would like to focus on today or a question that you bring to our conversation?

One thing I was expecting to get out of today's conversation, it's actually get a better understanding of where other people are standing. That's first, like where other people are and in the dating phase. So hopefully they are those previous partner that I have had before, you know, kind of understand what is the angle, how they're looking at things. And maybe that could help me kind of adjust and kind of direct or be more understandable or be more patient or being more relaxed when it comes to it, not just put everything all at first, you know, all the attraction kind of turn it down a little bit or spread it

out for the long run. Thank you. And for today, what would be something that's important for you? I think something that I'm finding is I'm very ambivalent about dating and I think a little bit more like you Douglas, like I don't find myself getting super excited to go on dates and I find the process kind of tedious. So I think my friends are kind of sick of me talking to them about this all the time. Most of them are partnered. So I think that I don't have a lot of other, you know, folks who are actively dating in my life right now.

So anything that can get me like a little bit out of that ambivalence, I think, is what I'm looking for. How do you meet Douglas? You go you're primarily on the apps? Which one? Where do you meet your people? Where do you meet your dates? I have met the majority of them of course on the dating apps I would say. Which one? I'm on Hinge. That's the only one that I'm on. And otherwise I do, I am very active, I go out a lot, I try to be social. How about you, Louis? Me, when it comes to dating, I meet people organically out usually. I'm very extroverted, I tend to go out on parties, out and drinking, and also on the app a lot. So on the app, I've used all of them.

Tinder, Bumble, Hinge, and especially one, Grindr. And yes, so that's usually how I meet them. And I tend to be more of a meeting in person type of person. I don't really do a long conversation. And usually what catches my attention is the person pictures what they do, how they present themselves, if they are very outgoing, if they are very adventurous,

if they like to travel, those are the things that kind of get my attention first. How long do you exchange before you meet them in person? How long do you write? Usually I give myself about a week. I have a window of about a week. So if we haven't initiated anything about a week, I usually tend to just dismiss it

completely and just move on to somebody else, I would say. And where would you go on a first date? And do you consider the first date when you meet them? Yes. When we meet in person, yes. So my usual first date would be usually it's a walk. I like to walk. That's something that I do a lot. So I would usually invite them. Before I used to live in Dallas, there was a specific area where I used to live by a small lake where I would just take

every single person I did, we would go on the same lake, take a walk and then if... And depending on how fast you walked you had the sense of if there was a... Depending on how fast we walk and how quick we do the loop and if the date was successful we usually stopped by, there was a little restaurant where we stopped by to have either ice cream or to have a little drink or something. If it wasn't successful, we just meet back and then just get back in our different cars and then go. So if it's not successful, successful means I'm not sure I want to see that. I know I don't want to see that person again. Right. Is that the idea? Okay. Yes. What do you say? What's your opening line and what's your closing line, if there is such a thing? Usually in person, we wouldn't say much. It's usually after via text that I would say,

it was a really nice time, but I don't really feel a connection here. So I wish you the best of luck most of the time. And I hate to say this about myself, but sometimes they just organically just fizzle out, like they don't reach out and I don't reach out. And the opening one? How do you start? The opening one when we first meet? Or even before?

The opening line? I usually tend to go with the joke, something about what their profile says or something about where they are on a specific picture. And I would ask them like, oh, is that a Grand Canyon behind you? Oh, I didn't know you could swim something when they're completely in the water, you know, something like that. And yeah, that's usually the most successful one. Like I usually go in with

a job or just a standard high. Ali? So what is the original question again? Ah, there've been so many. So, but you can start anywhere. I understood you started dating again, again after 20 years. So that's first of all, differently from Douglas and Louise that you actually have another experience. And this is a new culture. This is a new practice. How do you go about it?

What do you write on your profile? What catches your attention? What is it that you're looking for when you look? What do your eyes stop at? And then I'll continue. So I don't overwhelm you with ten questions at once. Sure. You know, even though my experience is really different from Douglas and Louis, like I'm still, I'm on the dating apps guys. I'm on Bumble and I'm on Hinge. And that is the primary, that is the only way that I've met people to go on dates with this time around.

You know, the last time I was dating was in my, you know, early twenties and, you know, the last time I was dating was in my early twenties and maybe there were Craigslist personal ads back then, but there were no dating apps. And so you really, like I met people at work, I met people who were friends of friends, or maybe you'd go out and somebody would hit on you. It was that kind of thing. So this was a totally new experience. And now I can't even imagine just like going out at night somewhere with friends and like meeting somebody organically like in the wild. I'm like do people even do that? so the things that you know, I think I'm pretty straightforward in my dating profile about What I'm looking for but I waffle sometimes like all you know for a few months

It'll say I'm looking for a long-term relationship or I'm looking for a life partner. And then when that doesn't get me anywhere, then it's like, well, maybe I just want to have fun. And so I might change the messaging on my profile. Does it change whose profile you then pay attention to? Yeah. Because I'm looking at things like what is somebody's intention on the dating apps. And so then I might change who I'm looking at or who I might consider.

When it comes to the things that catch my eye on other people's profiles, it's always the first thing I'm looking for is like, is there a smile somewhere? Is there a smile in one of the photos? Hopefully the first thing I'm looking for is like, is there a smile somewhere? Is there a smile in one of the photos? Hopefully the first one. And there's like this intangible sort of, there's something about the visual piece that is my first line. And it's not necessarily like, do I find this person extremely attractive? Is do I get the sort of, this is a kind and open person kind of coming through the photo.

And that's like my first line of sorting I guess How often have you been surprised when you meet them? Surprised in what way? That they're kinder than what the picture showed or that they're less? I feel like it's 90% of the time it's pretty spot-on and then I get surprised every once in a while Yeah, and what makes you want to go and meet them in real life or in the wild as you call it? It's like the Bonobos. I think if we can, if the communication is there, like there are so many times when I keep waiting and waiting during the texting phase for the other person to just like ask me a question or make

a comment specific to my profile. And if it's not happening, it's just, I have zero interest in continuing. But if there's a lot of times if there's like immediate sort of text, good banter, good back and forth fun, then I'm excited to meet somebody in person. So then you meet them the first time, and where do you meet? It's usually like, we'll get a drink, like at a bar, on the earlier side, so that if either of us wants it just to stay as like we met for a drink, we can do that. Or if it's going well, then we can sort of extend it and, you know, get some get some food. It's usually what it is. How do you know? And how do you communicate it?

How do I know if I want to stay? And how do you know? It's how do you know if you want to stay? It's how do you know if they want to stay? It's because a lot of these things are sensed more than known actually. They're physical, but not just physical in the attraction sense. They're physical as in they're embodied. They don't always get articulated in words, but you know when you're curious, you know when you're not in a rush, you know when you suddenly want another drink, you sense when there is a kind of a rapport between people. So describe it from what you experience. I actually think that there's like a difference between how well I can tell if I'm interested.

I have a hard time knowing if somebody is interested in me that way. I have, there's almost always, there's good conversation. I find it really easy to make conversation with people and I'm curious. I like to learn about them. Um, and for me, the way that it turns in the direction of, Oh, I'd like this to be more than just one drink is if they're curious about me. And like you said, there's like, there are things that are sensed if they're, if it feels like, um, you know, in a sort of embodied way, I'm a little bit on autopilot. If I find myself like just naturally like leaning into them, getting a little bit

closer, there's like, you know, eye contact and, um, you know, some natural kind of flirtation going on, then I can tell, okay, I'm into this. It's a little harder, and it's weird because my last few dates that I've gone on, I've sort of walked away thinking like, that was fun, that was cool, great conversation. I don't think they were into me. And then they came back and expressed interest,

and I was like, oh, that's surprising to me. So I don't know. And then what did you do? You went back? Yeah, yeah, I'll almost always go. Like if the first date is fine and if the conversation was good, I'm interested in just talking with people

and getting to know them. So I'll almost always go back for a second date. and getting to know them. So I'll almost always go back for a second date. We have to take a brief break. Stay with us. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Shopify. If you have an idea for something to sell, you won't get far without the right tools.

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at masterclass.com slash begin. Masterclass.com slash begin. Ali, you said before my friends are getting tired. I can't imagine them being tired if you tell them titillating stories of your dates. So there must be, there are the titillating stories, the fun stories, and then there are the frustrating stories, I suppose. So how much do you experience, this is to all of you too, you're dating life as kind of separate from the rest of your life. It's that thing that you go to,

you leave your life to go on a date. You hope that it becomes more than one date. If it lasts long enough, at some point, you bring this person into your life, it becomes a kind of a big reveal. I'm seeing someone, you're bringing that person in. It's a very interesting type of dating that is actually quite different from the way things used to be and the way it's done in many of your cultures, where you meet people as part

of your life with your friends. It's integrated. And I see all three of you shaking your heads. And if the day doesn't work out well, well, you had a fun time with your friends anyway, rather than you come back from a date and you say, like, well, that one was not successful. And this one was a dud, this one didn't pan out, this one was just a waste of my time. I mean, you begin to evaluate the dating, you know, in very material ways. I didn't go to do this with my friends. I went on this date, you know, it was a nothing.

And so then the dating takes on a different value. Now it needs to compete with what I could have done alternatively. And then, okay, you're all reacting to me visually. So I'm going to be quiet and let you all say what you're thinking. Oh, go ahead, Douglas. Oh, that's a lot. So I understand that what you're talking about is how dating is not integrated into our lives as our norm, but rather it's something

that we do separate from our lives. And it's not necessarily fun for that reason. It feels a bit like a chore. It could. And I completely agree with you on this point. But I also try my best to have fun on these dates, right? Even if it doesn't go well, to know that it was a good learning opportunity. Where do you meet on the first date? Where do you go? Usually, I'm in the Louis boat. I like to go on a walk. I like to, nothing too intense, something where you can leave if you need to.

Um, and the other person doesn't feel trapped, I suppose. So yeah, I try not to go for drinks because during the nighttime, I'm very tired and brings me even more tired. And I feel like that seeps my energy quite a bit. So, uh, I like to go on daytime dates, maybe grab a coffee, something like that, or an ice cream, go to the farmers market. Those are my favorite ones. Do you ever do an activity, something that you enjoy, like the farmers market, other activities, things you enjoy doing? What do you do when you're not on a date? What are your activities for example?

That's the thing. So on my hinge profile it says for our second date I like to do something active and fun because I know for the first date I would still be figuring this person out and what they like to do. I don't want to bring them straight into the things that I like just in case that they don't feel comfortable in that environment. For the second date I'd like to bring them straight into the things that I like, just in case that they don't feel comfortable in that environment. For the second date, I'd like to invite them to, depending on what comes up in conversation, I really like to climb, so I might invite them to the climbing gym.

Or sometimes if we meet during the evening, oh, let's go to trivia night or something. Or I've had a really good date where we went to watch a movie, an outdoor screening. And that was really nice. Yeah. Just depending on how that fast interaction goes. You know, the difference between a bar and a walk, there's many differences, but one of them is that you're moving.

Yes. And there's a different way to experience presence, connection, even a little bit of the anxiety of meeting a new person when you are in motion versus when you are seated. And when you move, you are side by side. When you are at the bar, you are face to face. Yeah. And side by side is a little bit like when people fish,

you know, and they say all kinds of things to each other, but they're looking ahead of them. And I'm thinking of that because you used this interesting word. I want to make sure that nobody feels trapped as we are meeting. So this is such an interesting thing. I want to just make sure that there is an exit for everybody. You know, so, and I also noticed all three of you are on the extrovert side of the continuum. So it's easy. You enjoy conversations. Is that accurate? Did I make a fair assessment?

I say no. I'm going to pretend if I need to. Okay. I retract. I am totally... Yeah. I'm more introverted. I like being one-on-one with people, but yeah. No, because I see your faces. If I saw your faces on the app, I would think outgoing, smiling, warm. That's what you exude right here on this Zoom thing. So I don't think of Extravert as a big amount of people, but more communicating, engaging with someone, showing your curiosity, keeping eye contact with what you were saying, Ali, and things that you enjoy and you know,

and they don't create such tension. At least that's how it came across, but I'm happy to tell me about the pretending Douglas. I feel like I'm a bit of an introvert and I'm not really that good at making friends quickly or acting in a way such that it would make someone else feel comfortable, essentially. So when I'm out in the world, I'm out in social settings, I look at people and I think about the way they interact with me and the

things that I appreciate about those interactions, I try to mimic as best as I can. Such as? Such as just being super enthusiastic about anything in my life. I know genuine curiosity, genuine curiosity is something that is super attractive and draws people to you. I personally am not, I'm kind of a cynical person so I find it difficult to be genuinely curious about anything or everything a person does or says. But I try, I try to think about people in their shoes and be genuinely curious about them.

That's one example. So what elicits your curiosity? How do you turn small talk into a date? How do I turn small talk into a date? Assuming that this isn't already a date and we haven't agreed that. The date in this instance is the structure. I picked someone from the app that seemed interesting enough and I'm going to go and meet them. That's the structure of the date. to see if I actually am really curious if the plot can thicken from the one-liner to a paragraph to a chapter to more than a chapter. I see. Well, I can't fake it in that case.

I actually have to be genuinely curious about this person instead of pretending. And those instances are few and far between, I'm afraid. I'm only attracted to a certain kind of person. So when I am, it's much easier and things flow and it feels good. It's much easier and things flow and it feels good, but it's difficult to find that. What kind of person or what kind of interaction? Because we are not just attracted to a person or a look, we're also attracted to an interaction. We become more curious because of the curiosity

of the other toward us, or because of the questions they ask, or because of the way they talk about themselves, or because of the way they listen. So there's a whole rapport, there's a whole interaction. In some way, the date is that. I mean, this is not science, you know, there's many ways to define this thing, but part of what you're saying is, I know how to be polite, I know how to be courteous, and I, this is back to what Ali was saying, I don't always know for sure

if they're interested, I could imagine that when you leave, because of how kind and polite you are, people could think that you're more interested than you are. Maybe. But I also think that generally people are as kind and polite as I am. And that's how I felt going on these dates. even if they didn't pan out. Everyone was equally respectful and kind and polite. Nice. Good. We are in the midst of our session.

There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us. This week on Profit to Markets, we speak with Aswath Demodri, Professor of Finance at NYU's Stern School of Business. He shares his take on the recent tariff turmoil and what he's watching as we head into second quarter earnings. This is going to be a contest between market resilience and economic resilience as to whether in fact the markets are overestimating the resilience of the economy. And that's what the actual numbers are going to deliver is maybe the economy and markets

are a lot more resilient than we gave them credit for. In which case, we'll come out of this year just like we came out of 2020 and 2022 with much less damage than we thought would be created. You can find that conversation exclusively on the ProfG Markets feed. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from OpenPhone. If you're running a business, every missed call is money left on the table. Think about the last time you had a plumbing emergency. When the first plumber didn't answer, did you wait or did you call the next one on the list?

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OpenPhone will port them over at no extra charge. OpenPhone, no missed calls, no missed customers. Do you ever stop? Do you ever say, I've had enough? I'm done with this for a while. I need to meet differently. This is tedious, to use Ali's words. I've had it. Or do you have the same energy still that you have had from way back? You're shaking your head, Ali. The first one. Yeah. I definitely like, I'll take breaks and I'll take the, I'll pause

the profiles and take the apps off my phone because it just feels really discouraging after a while. What is the thing that is discouraging? The not meeting a potential partner or the process itself? I think it's both. I think I don't know how to separate the two, because I haven't figured out how to meet a potential partner in a different way than using the dating apps. And so,

you know, I keep thinking like dating apps 2.0 have to be coming sometime soon because I don't think I'm alone in my frustration. No. And what would you change? I don't know. I feel like I could make a million dollars if I knew that. Yes. A million dollar question. Probably, I mean there's probably something about being in person with people and meeting, you know, being in the same space, like physical space as other people. You speed date?

I haven't tried it. I'm thinking about it, but I haven't tried it yet. It's hard to find speed dating events for people in my age range. It's for 20s and 30s. And I'm getting close to 50s. So it's hard. Why would you change, Louis? To set a little bit of background here, for example, to me dating is not tedious. I actually

do enjoy dating and I enjoy the act of just going out and meeting people. I think that's also something that comes from my background and the way my family is. My family, they just enjoy meeting people in general. That's like one big thing about us. So after that, the way I see dating, it's to me, I'm going into dating, not looking for a long time partner, but I'm going into dating, looking for a good interaction, a good conversation, a good moment. So that's kind of, I guess that's kind of what is hurting me sometimes in the long run, because I just go with, you know, with this big smile on my face, you know, with this, just excitement of being there, of getting to know somebody

that I haven't met before. Does the word love ever come in for you? No, actually no. To me dating is, it just feels like I'm meeting a bunch of friends. Somebody I can be friends with, somebody I can be partner with, somebody that can, you know, I have no idea. So that's kind of the idea that I set myself into when I go into these dates. And I just go and I'm just looking for that, you know, and that's why I'm not really mad

about it because, you know, sometimes I go after one night, I had a really great night, we had some fun, we had some drinks, we walked, we talked. And sometimes it could last a day, it could be a week of talking to somebody and then it feels as though, or it could be a month, or it could be two months, or it could be three months. But at the end, I'm always left kind of happy because I get to have that interaction with somebody, but at the same time, I'm just like, okay,

I still haven't find the person I'm looking for. But, and then it just repeat the cycle, and I just like, OK, I still haven't find the person I'm looking for. You know? But and then it just repeat the cycle. And I'm like, OK, you know what? Next week will be nice because I'm going to meet somebody just as exciting as that previous person was. And I'm just going to repeat that cycle again and again and again and again.

That's kind of how my dating life goes. And my friend asked me sometimes, aren't you tired of going on all these dates? Aren't tired of meeting all these guys and I'm like not really I mean it's fun it's nice you know I'm having a good time you know it's not necessarily the long-term relationship I'm looking for but it's something kind of I don't know if that makes much sense so So. I mean, you know, I'm in a moment of frustration now myself. I have a zillion questions for each of you. You know, I'm thinking it's such an interesting thing.

You're talking about dating, but we haven't used the word love once. We're talking about dating. We haven't said the word sex once. love once. We're talking about dating, we haven't said the word sex once. You did mention about the fizzling out and the people kind of not, nobody writes to each other, but we haven't talked about ghosting. What are doing the ghosting and are being ghosted. So it's doing the ghosting and are being ghosted. So it's interesting that it's the way that the conversation is framed. Part of what you say is, I don't really get to be so disappointed because I line up the next potential candidate for the week after. And so I keep myself up with the curiosity

and the anticipation of the next guy on my screen. But if I stopped the way Ali sometimes stops, I may also kind of get to the shadow side of this and begin to feel the tiredness, the disappointment, the transactional nature of it. And I think part of what has kept the word love out of it is the transactional nature. You know, all of you are emphasizing curiosity because it's the one thing that is not transactional in what we've been describing. This is, it is a different sequence here.

But what am I not including here that should be part of our conversation? Is there anything I haven't thought about that you have had on your, the front of your minds? Well, Ali? Do you want to go first, Ali? I think I've talked enough. Sure, I'll just briefly say that like,

there's something very different in my experience about dating at this stage of life than when I was dating younger, looking for a life partner, for somebody to have kids with and have a life with. Um, this is like, I don't have a rule book. You have children? I do.

I have a 10 year old and a 14 year old. So you know, I don't, I can't just, unfortunately, like when I take time to go on a date, it really feels like my time is limited. My free time, my leisure time is limited. And really like the person I'm going to meet from the dating app is competing against time that I can spend by myself, which I enjoy, or with my friends, which I love. And so, you know, for me, I feel like I have to be really discerning. I can't just keep like lining up date after date.

I don't want to, like I have a full life and people that I want to spend my time with. Um, so, you know, meeting a stranger and spending time with them, there's got to be something like that feels worthwhile for me. But like, like I was saying, like I don't have a rule book. I'm kind of making it up as I go along. And that's very freeing in a lot of ways because I don't have have my list that I had when I was 22. But at the same time, I have much less patience for dating than I did 25 years ago. And something that I keep coming back to is, I just keep wondering,

if there's something inherently incompatible between me and, you know, I date men, I'm heterosexual, like me and men of my generation, I just don't know if it's working. The one long-term relationship I had was with somebody who was 11 years younger than me, and that worked. And I don't know, there's something really odd about dating

and my generation where it feels like there's like a cultural mismatch between us. And I don't know. You don't meet anybody in your life through the kids, through your friends, through other people who are, who have transitioned out of their first relationships or family relationships? No. Like anybody that I know who has gotten divorced or transitioned out of their long-term relationships, those are women. And, you know, I'm not, they're my friends so I'm not gonna stay friends with there are now exes who are the men. I work in an elementary school it's mostly women around me and then through my kids like those are you know mostly

intact families that I interact with through my kids so I don't know what to do. So I don't know what to do. You were gonna say Douglas? Well, something that, well, you just talked about what Ali is, interacting with people who are already in your life, rather than strangers who you meet online, right? A lot of this conversation has been centered around

meeting strangers who you meet online through the apps. But I'm thinking about meeting people in real life through the friends that we know or existing friends that we have who we might be interested in. I think that's something that's not talked about too much nowadays just in general because the dating apps are so prevalent. Right. I have people in my life who I'd be very interested in figuring out more about and going out with. It's just difficult to gauge what they think as well in the moments that I spend with them.

So yeah, navigating that has been a little bit challenging for me. I'm pretty straightforward. I have asked out some people that I've been friends with. None of them panned out very well. But yeah. What am I missing, Louis? What isn't? So one thing that I've experienced is that with dating apps in general, and just like, that we're dating apps in general. And just like, you know, the world in general, like everything it's so close to reach, you know, nowadays.

You are, it's so easy to, you know, to meet somebody that's across the world and just like fly when I'm on vacation and go on a date with them. You know, it's so easy to have like, you know, this many people, you know, available, like right in your phone, you know, when you swipe, you know, if it doesn't work in, in Dallas, you in DC, if it doesn't work in DC, you in LA,

if it doesn't work in LA, you know, you're vacationing in, in Italy for the summer, you know, maybe my work there or something. That's one thing that I'm not sure maybe people are equipped to deal with because, and I have faced this issue first hands because if it doesn't work here, or if I'm not happy with the result I have here, I'm always happy to just switch. People are always moving all the time, people are always transitioning.

So that's something that I think people might wanna learn how to manage, or maybe, I don't know, diagnose what's going on underneath and why they feel the need to do that, I would say. I mean, we could definitely talk another hour together. It's such an important subject at the moment in so many people's lives, done in a way that we are just beginning to understand what it does to us. You know, like what Louis commented at the end about, you know, what does it do to our sense of self-worth,

our sense of self-esteem, of how we feel commodified, not here but there, I don't like it, I switch. To what extent do we treat people sometimes a little bit like we treat products? You know, I drop, I pick up, I examine, I decide no, not for me. And what does that do to us? Fundamentally. And as long as I stay busy, I don't have to think about it, basically. Then I keep the adrenaline going. And I get the dopamine hits. But when I stop, I may not feel as good about this.

And I can't thank you enough, really. I'm really very thankful, very appreciative. Thank you so much for taking the time. You're welcome. Thank you, Esther. Thank you so much for your advice. It's nice to meet you, Louis and Douglas. Nice to meet you too.

Good luck. Good luck to all of you. Where should we begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destrie Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julian Att. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin

are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.