Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - The One Who Stays and the One Who Goes

Episode Date: November 10, 2025

They met in vet school and married just as they reached graduation. But now his work takes him around the world, forcing them to live apart for months at a time. He’s ready to start a family, but she’s hesitant: how can they think about children when they’re often separated by distance? As they wonder about their next phase of life, Esther helps them uncover what sits beneath the surface: the loneliness of the one who stays, the guilt of the one who goes, and the challenge of learning to stay connected across miles of separation. Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real. Support for this show comes from the Audible Original, the downloaded two ghosts in the machine. Hi, my name is Madison, or you may know me as at Letters from Mads, and I have made escaping to other worlds my entire personality.

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Shop had to tow cozy from faves like Og. All Saints? Nordstrom, skims, the North Base, and more. Plus, free shipping, free returns and quick order pickup make it easy. In stores or online, it's time to go shopping at Nordstrom. They met in veterinary school, and they were five years together, where they had very much of a shared reality, both professionally and on a daily basis. I always joke that, like, if you can get through vet school together, you can pretty much do anything.

That was basically in the trenches together, trying to get through that. I mean, we have both been through just kind of very stressful, you know, veterinary school is not a walk in the park. Now he's in graduate school, and that has taken him into the field for months on end. And there have been a lot of challenges about how they are both living, different realities. He travels often for his work, usually gone for weeks to months, which leaves me working my full-time job, dealing with all of our animals and the house by myself, which can be really taxing for me. I am extremely passionate about what I do. Every time I get an opportunity to work in Kenya where I work, it feels like a life-changing experience.

really impactful personal growth and opportunity, and I have incredibly close relationships with the people who I work with. And when he comes back, he is excited to share this experience that he had, which was so positive for him, but unfortunately it was so negative for me that it can make that conversation difficult.

And it has brought up a lot of other challenges around intimacy, trust, togetherness, and separateness, and around the next developmental question, can we talk about having a child? International travel has definitely featured in the discussion that we've been having about starting a family, or rather the discussion we haven't been having. He is wanting to take that next step in his life,

wanting to start a family, and I don't feel ready for that. A few months ago, I brought. it up again, and the response that I got was, we can talk about in October. The target keeps moving. If the answer is no, that's really devastating, but what's worse than a no is just being let on, basically. Like, there's never any kind of resolution.

I feel myself constantly sane, but can you see it from my perspective? Do you understand why I feel the way that I feel? The session was on Zoom because they both. claimed challenges around their professional schedules. And there were eight pets that joined us for the session. Guinea pigs, cats, dogs. They were very present. They made noise.

They came to comfort. They had the physical experience that I did not have. So when they talk about bringing in a child into the family, it's because they already define themselves as a family. All right. Give me a sense as to why we are here today. And what would make this a helpful conversation? Well, I feel like I could start since I'm the one who did reach out.

So I was sort of feeling desperate. Like I don't know how to change the conversation we're having. Okay. because what we've been talking about in terms of having kids or starting a family. I would say we already have a family with all of our pets, but I would say non-pet family. Are any of them present in our session today? Oh, there's a lot present. Right here?

Yes. There's one there. Okay. I have four in the room. There's a couple dogs down there. I have a bunch of guinea pigs right here to my left. so it's sort of a zoo and are the important participants in the conversation about children

I would say yes I would say yes in two ways one I think we've demonstrated an ability to care for animals and be caregivers but two it really comes into play when we talk talk about me being gone for long periods of time, which has been a sticking point of this conversation. So explain just a tiny bit.

Do you travel for work? Yeah, so we both went to veterinary school together, and then she is a clinician. I fell in love with research and specifically working internationally, and now I'm the final year of my PhD and have plans to continue my international vet medicine slash research career. During the PhD, I was basically abroad for two months of the year. And it's a bit of a conflict because if I'm successful in my career, I'll continue traveling. But it feels like it's coming at the expense of starting a family due to the logistical and other difficult. So I think that's a big barrier.

And that is something that the two of you see or that's just your point of view. Because you share a lot. You went to school together so you definitely had a very much of a shared reality. And in effect, you may have had to talk about things less because you were both living some of the same things. things. And the shared reality spoke for itself. So you find yourself now needing to communicate because after five years you did graduate school together, you are now in a developmental stage that is one of differentiation in which each of you is trying to define themselves. You're in a process of needing to articulate your needs, your pursuits, your ambition.

ambitions, the whole range of things to articulate that are no longer provided by the circumstances of your life alone. Does that make sense? Yeah, definitely. So what about that rang true for you? Well, so I would 100% agree that us going to school together that it was very much of a shared experience. I personally have found that in our our professional life, things have gotten a little more difficult for us communication-wise because we're both very passionate about our professional lives. And it's basically kind of all we do. But I think that he can sometimes get quite frustrated because I don't participate in as much back and forth and true conversation about his research and stuff because I just

don't have the understanding that he does. So I try to be an active listener and engage when I can, but because I don't have the same curiosity about the subject that he does, I know that that frustrates him. Can I ask you? Sure. You say my interest is there. Does he trust it? It feels like he doesn't. Okay, so that's, you see, it's less constant. and topic related, and it's more relational. What good does it do for you to say I'm really care and I'm interested and I'm an active listener? If he doesn't believe it or if it somehow doesn't come true, what is it that we are each doing that lends the other person, that lack of trust,

Yeah, maybe I could just add something, because when you initially were saying about divergent paths post-grad school, that really resonated with me. And I think something that's very characteristic of that is the actual experience that I have working abroad. And it's really meaningful to me professionally, but also personally, living and working in a different culture and having these experiences with my collaborators and also community members who I get to work really closely with. And one thing that happens is I have a really hard time

coming back to the U.S., unlike reentry. It's almost like reverse culture shock. And you rely, this is a question, do you feel that you rely strongly on her, overtly or covertly, to help you cross the bridge and re-enter. Well, I think the issue with that is, honestly, I would like to rely on her more,

but often what happens is that I feel guilty for enjoying my time there so much because the message that I get is you're finally back. Hold on. Say to her directly. Yeah. So when I come back, it's very hard. for me to rely on you to help that process because I have a lingering sense of guilt for being

gone and also for liking what I'm doing so much while you are having a hard time. I think the hard part for me is that he enjoys his time. Talk to him. Talk to him. you came here to talk to each other differently i heard your initial statement how do we change the conversation between us it doesn't matter what we start to talk about we're certainly not going to start talking about the most challenging which is kids okay so when you come back it feels like we are not good enough. Who is we? We as in me and all of the menagerie of animals.

All the animals. That one day, if that conversation of a family is alive and present, there's going to be more than just a me in the animals. And whenever you come back, it just feels like you're so. upset about not being there, that you're not present with us. Like, the last time you came back, you didn't even want to give me a hug or a kiss. Like, it was after being alone for months, that's what makes it really hard for me, is that you come home and you're so frustrated that you're back.

But that's not how you feel. That's how you perceive him. If I understand what you're saying about how you feel, when you come back, I feel more lonely even than when you're gone. Yeah, that's true. Yeah. For like a week, for like two weeks. But it, even though it's hurt.

Hold on, hold on. What did you try to do with this? What was this comment about? Meaning to say, I don't stay in that state. It takes me a week or two. It's a transitional state. Right. But another week or two, after two months,

for you, it's just two weeks. For her, it's two, three months plus two weeks. Yeah. I think if I can respond to that, so... Oh, she was in the middle of something, so we're going to let her continue. Yes. And I'm sure you have responses.

perhaps this is more about what really goes on for her because you're very busy with what goes on for you. Can we try that? Yeah. Okay. Go ahead. It just feels like, again, we're just not exciting enough. I know you have Wonderlust, and that's okay.

I think it's hard for me because I don't get that opportunity. I don't have the flexibility to do the stuff that you do. And some of that is because I'm a major provider for our family and our lifestyle, and I feel that pressure of, well, if I'm not working, then these things can't happen. And so I think that's where maybe some of this pent-up frustration and, loneliness and everything comes from because it feels like I'm in a constant hamster wheel of my day to day and you get this exciting life where you can do whatever you want and I don't know well I think it's because you can't have your perfect career you know I get to pursue my dreams

and your dreams are put on the back burner. It's a striking moment. Someone has just said, I don't feel that we matter. And after all that, he says it's because you don't get to do what you really want to do. That is a response that doesn't really invite one to feel hurt.

It doesn't feel to me that he is truly listening to her to understand what she may be. be experiencing. I have more of a sense that he's listening in order to justify, rationalize, and that no matter what, she's trying to say about how she feels, he comes back with an explanation. And she relinquishes. And I am beginning to experience that it is not a given for her to claim her space. What she's actually talking about is how she thinks he doesn't value her.

and he seems to be disappointed at his home and he seems to be frustrated when in fact what she's really trying to say is I feel very lonely when you're gone but I feel even more lonely when you're back and that is when I'm beginning to ask is this indicative of more this doesn't feel to me like it's just a one-time thing

these begin to feel like patterns Well, my dreams want support what we want to be doing in our life right now. Right now, that's just not in the cards. So, yeah, there is a level of me being frustrated about that. I personally see a lot of our parent dynamics playing out in this scenario. Growing up, my dad was gone for four months out. of the year for work. And that was just normal for me. Can you give me a tiny bit of context for this? So my parents are wildlife biologists. They work in the field. My dad's kind of retired now,

but growing up, you know, there were four months of the year that he was in the field, quite far away, at least within the U.S. And that was just sort of a normal rhythm of life. but I know being gone for him was really difficult when I think he was very lonely and I know he really missed being at home and you me in terms of like that period no

me I decided that I was going to do this better and I wasn't going to be lonely when I travel actually his question was the one I should have stayed with were you lonely there is a story to the loneliness of the person who is gone and the loneliness of the person who stays

and the loneliness of the children who are in the center of this whole thing I do think that there is a dialogue between him and her that is happening but also between him and the boy that he was, and maybe between him and his father. We have to take a brief break.

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Learn more about the Confidence Project, empowering women entrepreneurs at Botox Cosmetic.com. slash Real Impact. This year's grant winners will be announced in October. Support for where should we begin comes from Babel. Does the idea of learning a new language intimidate you? You're not a law. According to Babel, between 70 and 90% of people who try to learn a new language, give up. Fortunately, Babel is built to make it really easy to get started. My husband is still using Babel to learn French, and when we spent a month doing a residency in Paris a while ago,

he was able to put what he learned into practice. And I can hear how much his pronunciation is improving. Here's a special limited time deal for you. Right now, get up to 55% off your Babel subscription at babel.com forward slash ester. Get up to 55% off at babel.com. forward slash esther spelled b a b b b b b e l dot com forward slash esther babel dot com forward slash esther rules and restrictions may apply do you ever miss home when you travel or you're so satiated in your assignment that it feels like it's another world.

And you don't really know how to maintain the connection. Yeah, I would say that. When I'm doing that work, I have a really good ability to focus on like a goal. I'm like singularly focused on collecting the data, making the connections. Everything is really, really intensive. So what I'm hearing from you is I have no problem being away. but I compartmentalized to such a degree that I don't know how to hold on.

You know, your challenge is the opposite of your dad. Your dad couldn't be a way. You can't stay connected. You want a kid, but it's not clear that you will know how to stay connected to the kid who stays back. So you've kind of taken out all the difficult pieces, the loss and the longing.

You've plucked out and you've kept the adventure. And when you come back, I don't know if you relate to what your wife says to you. And she says, there's this weird thing. There's something in the two-week period that leaves your wife feeling that she pales in comparison. And she understands your passion, but she doesn't like the feeling that emanates toward her from your passion. and when you respond to her you go right back to your passion and i don't know if you ever address that icky feeling that she gets yeah it's really tied up with guilt for me but the guilt is for how much you enjoy being out there or the guilt is for how little

enthusiasm you have for coming home because you always talk about I feel guilty about how much fun I'm having out there and I'm wondering where is the reflection on how little enthusiasm to the point where no kiss no hug

just kind of let down yeah I have a hard time with that example because the no kiss no hug thing was because I literally lost part of my luggage but how many days did it take you to get to the hug and the kiss after that yeah so don't well i think it happened that day just not at the airport right it was maybe hours later but after not seeing you for eight weeks there wasn't like the excitement

running to each other across the terminal i mean i'm being a little dramatic but just there wasn't that moment. Yeah. I think the guilt, so there's something I remember from two years ago that really defines it when you called me trying to get the snowblower to work. Do you remember this? So there's a big time difference, right? I think it's eight hours. So it was like six or seven in the morning for you. So it was like, no, it was four o'clock in the morning for me because I had to go to work at 6 a.m. Got it, 4 o'clock. Sorry, I shouldn't have interrupted.

And so I'm sitting on the phone with you, and you are frustratingly trying to use the snowblower to clear our very short driveway, which is something that I would do. And we, of course, learn later that the shear pins are broken. It doesn't matter. Basically, it wasn't working, and it wasn't going to work. and so I'm sort of sitting there on the phone thinking what the heck am I supposed to do in this situation if I was at home I would figure this out

and so a lot of that guilt for me is like those things that I would normally be taking care of I can't I am not there to help you and to me that's where the guilt is coming from a lot I remember that story very differently, but that's okay. No, I'm actually, I would love to hear what you remember of it because it's so clear to me. It was like on the phone like shit. Like, I don't know how to solve this.

I can't do anything. Well, as I said, I remember it being four o'clock in the morning, not seven or eight, because it was dark. I had the time on, yeah. our 300 foot long driveway, not short driveway, that was covered in about 6 plus inches of wet, heavy snow before I had to leave and be gone at work all day for 12 hours and leave our pets alone in the middle of winter. And I was on the verge of tears because I was so frustrated that I was going to be late for work. And needing your help, yes, there was a component where that you could not help me. But I didn't know what else to do. Who was I going to call at

four o'clock in the morning to help me? And that was only within the first couple of weeks of you being gone for the first time. And that for me is what kind of sealed the experience in a lot of ways that this is not fun, which is why I said you're not allowed to go in the middle of winter anymore. Although now I have a plow guy that comes and plows our driveway that I had to find. Well, that's what I was going to say is like the end of that story is you called the guy up the street who runs a plow business and now he just does it. But that didn't change that experience. Right. she has now tried three times to talk about her distress in various different forms

first by making the time accurate it was the middle of the night second by telling him that it was on a short drive but it's actually a long drive and third by telling him that the fact that she was able to find someone to help her with the snowblower didn't change her experience emotionally. So she's not giving up, but she's doing it in a very gentle and a very minor way. I'm going to wind us back a moment because you brought in this example to talk about the difference between feeling guilty about how much you enjoy your immersion on your fieldwork versus how guilty you may feel about the disconnect when you come home. And when you describe the situation and you say,

and I felt so bad that I couldn't help, I couldn't do anything, did you communicate that? Not well at the time. I don't think so. I think I was just like, you could try this. I was trying to problem solve. So you have great problem solvers, both of you.

But what you could add is a little more padding. I'm so sorry you have to deal with this. It's not the same as I don't know what to do. Yeah. I feel bad for you. for having to deal with this in the middle of the night like this. I hate to see you alone having to do all of this. That's padding.

And that is a piece to learn and to introduce in the way that you communicate. That's why she's calling. She's not calling for you to solve. She understands that you can't handle it, and especially if the machine is broken, there's not much you're going to do. She's smart. now I'm not sure that you know that that's what you're asking from him either this is a dimension that is kind of kept talked under between the two of you

because you are problem solvers and so you don't address the problem of the emotions which don't have a solution they're just paradoxes that you manage not problems that you solve that's a great way to put it maybe if I can ask a question would that experience have been different for you if I had just been supportive as opposed to

I don't know how well you remember what I was saying it doesn't matter it has happened many times and it's a beautiful question you just asked that's a relational question That's not about the snow or the blower. That's about your wife. I think it would. I do feel like in general, you tend to jump to problem solving,

which I've just grown accustomed to at this point, and I don't necessarily hold it against you. But I know you don't like to hear someone just sit and vent, but sometimes that's what I need. I need to be able to call you in the middle of feeling bad while I know that you can't help me to feel better. The issue is I'm really frustrated. And I'm not blaming you for it either.

I'm just frustrated with the situation. But because you feel guilty, you don't know how to give her the space to feel bad. You're going to say there's nothing I can do about it, and I'm going to say you can do a ton, which is simply to be there for her. would that make a difference for you i think it would a lot of the time of where he's gone it very much feels like i can't talk about the challenges that i'm experiencing because he's

going to feel guilty about it it's well why'd you bring that up now i feel guilty because i can't do anything about it and i think that If I had more of that emotional support, I think that would definitely make me at least feel more seen of just like this person that's here to care for the animals and the house so that there's not a fire. Speaking of fires, there's a lot of fires that I have to put out when you're not here. And it definitely, again, going back to that whole conversation of guilt, I feel like I can't express how I'm feeling because then you'll feel guilty. And that's never been my goal.

And I'm pretty sure I've even said that multiple times of like, I'm not saying this to make you feel guilty. We only have one session and we have three hours. And every move, they're getting closer to something that is truly important between them. This notion that I can't feel bad because if I feel bad, you feel guilty, and therefore I have to contain this. That in itself could be weeks of work together. What is actually happening to him? What is the sense of helplessness that he feels if he can't solve a problem? And what is the difference between being supportive

and fixing? And what does it take for us to be able to actually tolerate the distress of our partner without being instantly reactive and wanting it to stop. And one of the ways we wanted to stop is by telling them, don't do it or by us fixing it so that they have nothing to feel bad about it anymore. It's a ton of dynamics that are so familiar to so many of us that are just coming up here in one conversation. But still, I am not convinced that the guilt is the central issue. There is something bigger underneath that I hope we will get to.

when you're traveling we maybe talk on the phone twice a week and why would I waste that time starting an argument because I'm telling you something that's going to make you frustrated and that's partly why I close in because I look forward so much when you're gone to talking to you like i just i wouldn't want to waste that time do you know how much she's looking forward to talking to you uh no she just said it but i don't know that that's said very often i really don't wow i don't know why i feel uncomfortable on the phone especially in those circumstances just feels like there's a lot of pressure because we're maybe talking twice a week it's almost like an anticipation of something bad is going to happen and then it gets to the point where I'd rather compartmentalize it or not dwell on it so that it doesn't make me upset it's not like that every time but yeah sometimes there's a sense of dread it's really sad it's not universal

And I dread what? The guilt or stress or conflict. So unpack that one for us, please. I'm trying to figure out how much I should get into here. So I grew up in a pretty emotionally volatile household with a lot of outbursts and learned how to deal with that. in my own way, but I think the most direct way I learned how to deal with it was having a singular focus on something and not letting my emotions get out of back. So that's why avoidance is a common occurrence. But I'm going to ask you, so you said, how much shall I say?

Yeah. Enough that the sadness that she just felt is sadness for you. and not that she's the source of the sadness. So you talked about the guilt. You talked about what it was like to be the kid who saw your parents deal with these long absences. How did they handle it? What did you do with the volatility?

And how did you become a master at compartmentalizing? And when you compartmentalize to the way you do, it's hard for you to be away and to say to her, I miss you. It is. Without feeling guilty about the fact that you're gone, which then makes her feel lonely. It's like, how do I hold two feelings at the same time?

I'm glad to be in the feeling. field and I miss you. I have a very hard time with that. Okay. How do we change the conversation is going to involve your learning to do more of that? Yeah.

And I suspect that this is what he had to learn when his father was in the field. This notion of how do you feel close and connected, even when you're gone, is actually a very important concept. It starts in what babies experience called object constancy, right? It's what allows us to play hide and seek. That's the playful version of where we practice this all the time afterwards. The person is there, even when I don't see them.

It's one of the essential pieces of internalizing connection and building trust. And what he's saying is, I don't know how to do that. If I go in the field, I forget about my whole life. I don't know how to internalize it and hold it. So the guilt becomes the way with which he holds on to the connection while at the same time be gone. We are in the midst of our session, and there is still so much to talk about.

We need to take a brief break. So stay with us. Support for this show comes from the Audible Original, The Downloaded 2, Ghosts in the Machine. The Earth only has a few days left. Rosco Cudulian and the rest of the Phoenix colony have to re-upload their minds into the quantum computer, but a new threat has arisen

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as part of their commitment to invest in and support equity for women. It's a cornerstone of Delta's investment to improve the airtime. travel experience for everyone and help you get to where you need to be. From season kickoff to the championships. What's weird is that I have an easier time telling other people I'm with how important you are than I do to directly tell you when we're talking on the phone. Like that doesn't make any sense to me. Why is that? I mean, all I do is rave about you to everyone I know. And yet, when we're actually having the conversation, it's hard. And I don't understand that. I don't know how to answer that for you. Yeah, I don't get it. What is it you avoid? What's the fear in saying that the person

that's next to you? How much you care about them and how important they are to you? There shouldn't be. That's why I'm confused. But there shouldn't be in a rational logic, but there often is in an emotional logic. So you're saying, I have the hardest time saying, I love you to the person I love the most. Yeah, sorry, you're opening up a lot of feelings with that one. I think the people who you are closest with have the biggest capacity to hurt you.

and I feel like unintentionally I keep some distance from you to protect myself which I don't feel that way logically but it seems like your family has such an easy time saying I love you you almost had to teach me how to do that because I did not have that as a practice

I still feel weird saying it out loud. So I would like to learn from you how to do that better and be intentional about it, because that's actually how I feel. I can try to be better at teaching you. This was such an interesting moment, because at the moment he says, I would like you to teach me to say, I love you. the dog came immediately over to him and licked his hands and I thought maybe it's actually easier for him to say I love you to the dog

and it won't be unusual in many families that a certain kind of emotionality and expressiveness of tender feelings can be expressed to the pet or even through the caressing of the pet in ways that people cannot do with each other Something you said earlier is something that I asked myself constantly, which is I do not have to pursue a career in what I'm doing.

I was a small animal vet for a year. I didn't want to pursue it as a career. But it's a wonderful profession, and I'm qualified and capable and able to do that, and I would be right here. for however long the next, you know, 30, 40 years I could work in vet med and have a really successful career, everything. Or is it okay and easy for you to acknowledge that the way that she has set up her career is what is enabling you to do the field work that you are doing? I would say not just the fieldwork, but like our lifestyle. Our lifestyle.

So the fact that we bought a house. not even to get into my student debt situation but the fact that we're paying a mortgage and have cars and are able to travel that is two-thirds plus supported by her and can you comfortably acknowledge it without it choking you with guilt yes but the logical part of me says why are you putting so much pressure in this situation when if you just did something different everything would be a lot easier. Why am I

the way I am and want to do all these other things? But that's part of the guilt talk. So you're back

thinking about you and it makes it more difficult for you to actually say I'm such a lucky guy.

I am passionate about something. I'm quite selfish about it and I'm so lucky to have you and I

owe you so much. Yeah. I have maybe a question that would help this, so if I can ask. Of course. So how do you perceive me within the context of what I do, and if I did something different, would that change? Like, are you attracted or impressed by it, or would you just wish that I did something different? You're asking me if my attraction to you revolves around what you do for your career?

Would you respect me equally if I did something different? Yeah, like how much does it play into it? It doesn't. So it's not a benefit at all. It's just detracting. I value your confidence, your intelligence. For me, it wouldn't matter what you did. And I think what you do now is great.

But for me, I don't. care about that. That doesn't change how I view you as a person. To me, that's not important. Clear answer. I actually think that this is a question that is less from him to her and more from him to the child inside of him. And what I'm hearing now is that it alludes to how many kids idealize what their parents do to make their absence often more tolerable. Doing important things, saving humanity, being a fireman in the night. If you do something truly big and I can idealize it, then I somehow can accept your absence better. And he's asking it to her, but she's not the child.

I like you as the way you are. I like you just the way you are. So this is another moment where I think bringing in the history of his family of origin would have probably helped us understand this a little bit better. It's kind of the opposite. I was hoping it would be a benefit so I could justify doing it. Sneaky. That was my thought.

But, yeah, it didn't work out too well for me. That's very interesting. If you had said that the draw is in what I do, I could have used it for the rest of our life together to justify. And back then with that woman in 2025, you told me how much you found what I do so inspiring. So don't come now and tell me that it produces hardships on you. No. Well, that leads me to another question, which I hope is not as malicious as that one. Sneaky is that one. Stinky is a good word.

Yeah. Do you feel like what I do at home supports what you do, being the main provider? And like, am I providing you support and, trying to take care of stuff, does it allow you to do your profession better as well? Does it feel reciprocal to you? Or does it feel like a one-way street? I've already said that it does. I've said on multiple occasions that you are the primary person that's responsible for our day-to-day. And that's why when I'm alone by myself for these weeks on end, it's extremely challenging because then I'm not just doing my job, but I'm also doing your job when it comes to the home stuff. And I already have a very demanding work. And so I know that it's very helpful for me when I leave the house at 6.30 in the morning and I'm not home until 7 o'clock at

night, that I don't have to think about feeding the pets and sometimes doing the dishes and sometimes making dinner because you're home and you're able to. Yeah, thanks for saying that. It feels nice. In some way, he actually holds a lot of things that he's in charge of. And when he's gone, you know, it's one of these things where you say, one person is doing the job of a bunch. And so when he's gone, it's the bunch that is missing. Totally.

And if you're going to have kids, this has to shift. Somebody's going to have to make adaptations, meaning both of you, eight pets and one or two kids and two full careers with very little support around you he's going to crush you. I mean, it's totally fine, but you're going to have to start to be more creative. Who may need to adjust for a period?

Who gets priorities for two, three years, and then the other person gets priorities? How do we make this flexible? I think that's why I'm so hesitant in all of this, because I feel like there has never been compromise in these conversations. It's just been a, well, she's sacrificing to do this career so that I can do my PhD and I can travel. And I want a family. But he wants the rest to stay put as it is. And that's what I struggle with because I just see, once again, the only option being

that I sacrifice my career again. So that is a concrete thing that needs to change and that is totally doable but it will require you not to think just what do I need but more what does the family need not just to survive but to drive one theme of this session was about how can we have a conversation

about having a child that she's not avoiding, shutting down, and that puts us in a place where we can't talk about this. But the second subject was this is a couple that is going through developmental transitions.

When they were students together, they shared a reality on a daily basis. And choices that we make because we are students or because we are just the two of us demand different answers. than choices that we make when we try to expand and to become a family.

These are developmental questions and there is nothing inherently problematic about it. At the last moment, as we were talking about all these conversations that they wanted to have, the subject of sexuality came up. And we ended up having, in fact, a whole other session about that. And so I invite you to listen to that session, whether you are a subscriber on Substack or in Apple Podcasts. Where should we begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise? We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network,

in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julianette. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider, and the executive producers of where should we begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.

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