Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - The Permission to Be and Not Just the Pressure to Do

Episode Date: December 15, 2025

He comes to Esther with a question about how to feel worthy without constantly having to prove himself. For him, it’s not just personal, it’s also racial. Defining himself on what he calls the ��path of black excellence,” achievement has become both a burden and a measure of identity. Together, they explore what it means to experience calm and worthiness, not through doing, but simply by being. Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [e-mail]. Producer’s Note: When our anonymous guests do a session with Esther for the podcast, it is an act of generosity for everyone who listens. These sessions are meant not only to support the people in the room with Esther, but all of us who learn from their stories. Our stories have many chapters, and what you hear is just one moment in someone’s journey. So even though the sessions are anonymous, please remember that real people are behind them and they may be reading your comments. Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi Esther. Since I was a kid, so much of my validation came from titles. Being labeled, gifted, and talented, hearing I was destined for great things. I did what we were told would lead to success. Go to school, work hard, follow the rules, follow the right path, quote unquote. After college, I became a reporter on television. I thought it would be as exciting as it looked, but it wasn't, and it took me years to grieve that path that I left behind. But even, doing the right thing didn't protect me from layoffs, detours, or breakup. The realization that achievement doesn't always bring security or happiness. My ambition has even shaped my relationships in one. My constant focus on what's next sometimes created a distance I couldn't close. When I'm achieving, I feel validated. When I'm not, I sometimes feel restless and unsure of who I am without something to chase. So my question is, how do I start to separate my identity and so worth for my professional achievements? And how do I redefine success in a way that still feels meaningful without it being the only thing that defines me?

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Try O-D-U for free at O-D-O-D-com. That's O-D-O-O-O-O-com. anything you want to add change no i don't think so so then let's start from the beginning of your question right i was raised and told always that i'm gifted talented and that i'm going to do big things and I should start to work on it from day one. What's the context to this? I think the biggest context, you know, is for me, growing up in a world where I think I've equated a lot of my value to what I can achieve.

But how did you learn that connection from where? I would say probably starting at home. You know, it's like, you know, being agreeable is the thing. You know, it's like you do well, you get rewarded. You know, if you don't do well, there's always an expectation that I do well. Was the whole family high achieving or the expectation was put on you? I think the whole family, like my sister was valedictorian. And part of it, too, is I lost my older brother when I was 10.

He was seven years older than me, so he passed away. And so a lot of, I think. Oh, he was killed. He was shot. He was killed. That's not the same as he passed away. That's right. You know, that's a very different kind of loss.

Yeah. And he was killed because what? He was really an innocent bystander. He was leaving work with his co-worker. He was working at them all, and the co-worker had a stalker ex-boyfriend who was older than her by a significant margin. And, yeah, the boyfriend came and killed them both. I guess he was targeting her, but my brother was next to her. Oh, my brother was next to her.

So, achievement after that loss was... Well, I think for me, it was always... I saw academic achievement and professional pursuit as a way to sort of work through the grief as a way to sort of keep people happy

get people happy yeah keep people starting with my parents I will give them something to celebrate and it will ease the pain of the loss of my brother

were you aware of that? Was it a conscious? No, not at 10, 11, 12, now older, I can look back in hindsight and think and say that and recognize that. But then, no, it was just, you know, you get all age, you get an award, you get something for that. But it wasn't conscious at that point. It is sort of the expectation. I think, you know, part of it too in this society, you know, being black in a society, you're taught you have to do twice as much to get as much. And so that pressure as well.

Yes, I was about to ask What's the connection for you On a personal level with race? I don't want to make any assumptions No, yeah. I mean, I think it's part of it You know, there's a compensation For race You know, there's a pressure to be

You know, you see black excellence And often, and that's sort of a theme And so You want to be seen as excellent But a lot of that is external validation I'm getting to a point now Where I don't care as much

But, you know, it was about the next award, getting, you know, the job title, going to the best schools if you could in order to be seen as excellent and, I guess, acceptable in a lot of circles to a lot of people. But that is not only, by far, not only a personal pressure. That's a societal pressure. This I need to achieve. I mean, there may be a family layer and then there may be a personal layer. but there's also majorly a society layer to this message. I mean, black excellence does not exist with other names in the front like that, you know? Yeah, I mean, it's really a cultural thing. I think obviously it comes through a history of what we experience. Yes.

But there comes a certain pressure with that. And then, you know, where I live, you know, where I live... Huge pressure. Yeah, huge pressure. And there are a lot of pushback. There's a lot of pushback on what that means. But I think, you know... What do you mean?

What do you mean when you say that? A lot of pushback. So some people, you know, push back against this notion of black excellence. Like, you can be excellent and not have a master's. You know, you can be excellent and not have a college education. You be excellent and just have a normal, quote unquote, normal job. For me, I don't think I've ever had a quote unquote normal job. I've always had these roles that were seen as sort of sexy.

Then I was always disillusioned when I got them. But did you see them as sexy, or did you see them as fulfilling the requirement? Both. Is that, yeah, both, I think. I won't tell you, yes, no. You're describing your life. I'm describing my life, yeah. You know, it's like the job I should like because it looks good.

Yeah. Versus I am drawn to this as well. They may be both, but there needs to be at least the and me, Yeah. And for example, I was drawn to doing television because I thought that I was something I was good at. I was good at communicating. But there was an element of it that was a little bit. There's a little bit of, I think, ego in the best way to say that you want to be on TV every day. And so, yes, it looks sexy. But it was also something that I knew that I wanted to do. But that was also a little bit of something imposed upon me. It was like, you should do this job. People thought, you know, you should be a reporter. You should be on television. You know, coming up. I was always on the school news show or something like that. But when I got in it, I was deeply, and this is during the pandemic. So it was deep disconnection, you know, during that time. And I was just like running myself into the ground doing that job. And I was like, this is not what I signed up for what I thought it would be. Do you think it would have been different if you

had started at a different time? I did start a little bit before the pandemic a year prior. But even And then I said, this is not it. But the pandemic sort of exacerbated that. And it's not it because of the nature of what you were doing, or it's not it because it doesn't fix the chronic optimization. The chronic racial optimization, too, for that matter, that I am constantly under. So no job is ever good enough to finally make me stop.

the race it's like the race for the race yeah I think I have a chronic of a feeling of this is just not enough I need to do more

something's always I need something that was new something more than this um boredom can be a big part of it so I do think there are a couple of factors so yes the job itself is just

burn out central low pay but then also just like, okay, what's next? I have to get to the next place. Like, I'm done living where I'm at now. This is too small. This is too stressful or too whatever. And it's time for me to get to the next point of my life, to the next venture. So even when I was reporting, I was also working on a graduate degree. And mostly people would say, I know, where were you doing that? But, you know, it was like, what's new, what's next? I have to move on to the next thing.

So your question is not what do I want to do. Your question is, how do I create a situation and can I? Where, no matter which I choose, it doesn't stay trapped in the cycle of proving myself constantly, needing more because the minute I slow down, it looks like I'm no longer in the black excellence. trajectory and I have all these enormous pressures on me. Yeah, that's the better frame. Do you share this with other fellow people? All of us.

I said all of us. All of you, okay. Because this is huge, you know, this is, you're not meant to ever, I mean, not that I don't think you know that, but sometimes people have a tendency to keep this things to themselves and then it becomes even further exacerbated because now it's a it's a solitary lament and pressure versus if I come together with other people my group and other groups and we talk about these pressures and we talk about us in society then it's it's less

an issue of jobs and careers and it's really when is enough enough so tell Tell me about the solidarity that you have. I think a lot of my closest friends, we've come to the point even before 30, recognizing. I guess, again, is where disillusionment comes up around society. When we say, what we were promised, you know, coming up, you go to the right schools, get the grades, go, you get the job. But that's not the case. And I think we've realized that now more acutely, now, during the pandemic, and coming out of that with layoffs and friends I know like myself like nobody would have told

me I would have been laid off three times in three years you know in effect because I got all the things or like my friends who have been in similar situations who have been out of work for a year now but they have all the things all the degrees all the connections and just general and my friends who have not been in that situation but who have also depression had a sort of pressure and really mourn the loss of dreams that they thought they'd have, or they're not in a place where they thought they'd be. So, yeah, we have these conversations like one-to-one, but we don't have these conversations like in a group where, like,

Instagram, you know, you're doing fabulous. You're in the trip. No, but at some point, so, you know, as you're speaking, I'm thinking, what does this young black man, talented and well-supported. Expect from this middle-aged Jewish, European woman. What can she bring to him? How can she help him with this dilemma?

I'm very curious. What led you to think, you know, I want to discuss this with Perel? Well, obviously, imagine work. I don't know. You're really insightful in terms of relationships. relationships to the self, relationships to how you relate to the world. I think over the course of the year, your work has helped me tremendously, not just in a relationship

to with myself, but even like when I was in a relationship, I remember my therapist told me about your work and how you put language to a lot of the things that I was experiencing during that time. I was really young when I got in my first relationship. I was 22. and we were together for over five years and it ended and it was hard you know being same gender loving black

and all these expectations you know in my first relationship so a lot of a lot of my achievement I also had to do with that too you were same age yeah

yeah about six weeks apart really and grew up together in each other for like 20 years and so a lot of still connected no no no no no not connected

I didn't know. I haven't heard from. But a lot of your work gave a lot of language to what I was experiencing at that time, you know. And it's been a long journey on that front too, you know, navigating who I am outside of the context of relationship, especially coming up in my 20s, you know, in college, and then having moved, we moved to a whole other city together and started their life there. There's a huge developmental thing happening and then it ends, you know.

It's hard to figure who I am career. And remember, when the breakup happened the same week, the relationship ended. So I'm like, in chaos. The breakup and the relationship ended the same week as...

Around the same time. As what? Oh, I'm sorry. The same time I got laid off from my job. So I got laid off the same week, the breakup ended. So it was like...

That's a week you will remember. It's a week I'll remember. So, yeah, I, um, yeah, you just give good language, so that's why, to answer your question. But we are trying to put language on pressure. Is that how you, well, you know what? Here's what I'm going to suggest. I'm not going to put language. We are going to create language together.

Okay. Because I think it will be more useful to you if we find the right words together. And we may change them, I may suggest things. But I don't think you can talk about the desire for achievement outside of the context of the pressure on black excellence. If you try to just make it an individual conflict, it's not right. it's not correct and it's not fair to you because it's internalizing an entire system when you say

I wanted to please my parents and make them feel good to assuage some of the grief that they were feeling that's personal that could be anyone's story and anyone's desire but the pressure to make it, the constant feeling that wherever you are, instantly you need more, lest you become a non-achieving black, gay man with a lot of credentials that cannot be separated

from the societal and the cultural framework in which it exists and history. We have to take a brief break, so stay with us, and let's see where this goes. for a sign, here it is. 2026 is the year and Shopify can help. Shopify gives you everything you need to sell online and in person. Millions of entrepreneurs have already

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That's my right. I think you hit the nail on the head. I think that there is the personal and then there is the larger context, sort of the interpersonal structures that we live in. I found myself, I think, too, just trying to figure out how do I come of age in this world with all my different identities and how do I fit into the world. Are you in your 20s or in your 30s?

20s, I'll be 30 next year. Okay. Honestly, this is an iterative process. What I am more cautious about for you is that you're not translate the pressure into this is boring. This is not what I expected. I'm disillusioned by the job.

and you think that it has to do with the job rather than with an internalized system of pressure because then you're never going to actually enjoy what you do so you can go to the things you want the most or you can go to the things that you know have cachet and status doesn't really change anything if what defines them is am I holding up to the standard So I don't look like somebody who's not driven, who's lazy, who's this, who's that, whatever, all the stuff black people have had to hear and endure.

I never want to be seen as lazy, that's one thing. Yes, yes. Never want to be seen as lazy. And I remember, you know, I have had to contend with, like even when I was in a relationship, like the feeling that I was putting a lot more energy into my professional life or my personal life. or my pursuits then into the relationship. That was a sticking point, this desire not to be seen of, like, not doing anything. I have a hard time, like, resting.

And anybody who knows me knows I'm always doing something. Yes, but look, a lot of people can say, I have a hard time resting. A lot of people can say, if I don't do anything, I feel lazy. But it doesn't have the same meaning than when a black person says it. Mm-hmm. because there are not many other groups

that have had to confront this constant epithet. And so when you say, how do I sit still and be, how do I find legitimacy in just being and not in doing? How do I feel that I deserve a rest? I mean the whole world was created with a day of rest you know

how do I experience the right the legitimacy how do I experience that entitlement in the good sense of the world to just be in the world without this running

drone ruminating constantly in my head not allowing me to take a deep breath in and out and not have any expectation on me and any pressure on me and any rant in my head telling me get up, do this, that, lazy, da-da, firing constantly. And how is not something that,

I'm going to say something that's going to help you do this instantly. I don't believe that. But there will be a frame where you gradually, every time you find this pressure, you find a way to actually say, I can be. I have a right to just be. And that in itself is an act of resistance, by the way. It's not just some statement of well-being. Yeah. And I never understood it.

And people talk about just be. choose or so, what does that mean in this world? It means that you feel worthy of your existence, even when you're not proving that you deserve to exist. Is that it? That's a good friend. Put it in your own words. I'm lending you mine and then you put it in yours. The way that I think about this is I don't have to prove myself with my worthiness.

My worthiness is inherent. is a way that I would think about that and it's not something to prove. But that's also like for me, like, do you, can you believe this? Oh, God, I can make a mental assent to it. On an old level, on a mental, physical, emotional, spiritual level, can you imagine that this is not just a statement?

Because we can say things to convince ourselves. When we are convinced, we often don't need to say, it. We live it. And I think it's developmental. I don't think that you wake up one morning and you have it. So say it again. My work is inherent and I don't have to have to be worthy. Say it again. My worth is inherent and I don't have to prove myself to be worthy. That makes a lot of sense. I mean, I resonate with that.

And I think that applies just in every area. We talked about career, but that's just one symptom or one aspect of a relationship. So that's any type of relationship, whether that's friendships or romantic relationships or family. Do you feel it everywhere? Yeah. Did you feel it now when you said it or you just said that makes sense? Maybe I intellect you hearts too much. I feel, I mean, I do feel it.

So I'm like on a mental, physical, emotional, spiritual level. On a mental level, yes. on a spiritual level, I do believe that, you know, from where my, my grounding is spiritually. You know, I believe that about everybody, you know. Sometimes it's difficult for me to sometimes even, I can see that in somebody else, but not in myself all the time. And that's also something that I'm trying to also mentally work through. Like, how do I, I can see that, you know, somebody else doesn't have to prove themselves or they have inherent value. They don't have to work harder.

But for me, it's like, nope, you have to work harder. So it is for me that statement that I made I'm inherently worthy and I don't have to prove my worth Do you have close friends? I have a lot of close friends Do you ever say stuff like that to each other?

Not all the time No not all the time But do you Sometimes Because that's one way to have each other's back When you live in a shared reality is to remind each other of the things that you know

that you see in the other and that is challenging for yourself. You know, sometimes I say if your best friend was talking to you or if you were talking to your best friend either way, what would you be saying? If they say, I can't sit still,

the minute I sit still, it's as if I think in this truth of laziness and of not enough and of of what? Feeling in the blank. More tangibly, more money, not enough money.

Not enough time. And I think that's true. The money thing is something that we do talk about that all the time. You know, it's like, I went to school, I don't have enough money. I need to sell my house. I need to, you know, sell my car. I need to do all these things. So some people don't feel like they have enough love in their lives, whether that's romantic or otherwise, but it's not enough love or there's not enough support.

Those are all things that come up sometimes in conversation. And you? And for me, certainly not enough money. You can only make one more dollar. And that's that chase of capitalism, you know, that we deal with. I don't have enough time to do everything I want to do. I feel like I'm in a rush. Like I'm, I realize I'm still young and some people might listen and say, who you're talking about?

But sometimes I feel like I'm running out of time to do the next thing, whatever that thing is. I don't even know what the next thing is. If you'd ask me five years ago, would I be in the position I am now? I would have not believed you.

As in? Well, five years ago, I thought I would not be working in office job. I thought I would have been still in teaching. TV, doing that career path. Do you like what you do now? Sometimes, only because it's slower than what I'm used to.

But I do like it. I do like it. I think in the past, I was always attracted to things that kept me going, movement. We're now working at an office job. There's a sense of this. Sometimes boredom sits in, sets in. is it a step on the way to something and it's the thing

everything's a step on the way to something for me but that's okay you know this is when I say developmental that means you are in your 20s and so we can have a piece of the conversation that is very much about you race pressure

existential elements related to work but then there is the developmental arc you know what I want to do what I should do what I should do a little bit of so that I can get to what I want to do the stuff I do

because it has meaning for me versus the stuff I do because it is more remunerated the stuff that fits my identity and the stuff that I think gives me the credentials for the next thing I mean there's all these considerations and I see those

also very much in a developmental arc you know there is what you you choose to do, and then there is what life puts in front of you and chooses you. That's right, yeah. And I think I've been in that ladder camp, what chooses me. Yeah. And somehow people often struggle with that one, as if there's something wrong with the fact that I've done the stuff that kind of fell in my lap or I've done the stuff that people have sought me out for. I don't know that I necessarily think that this problem.

maybe because that happened to me too. And I mean, I came to this country and some things I could choose, but the majority of things I kind of took what I could get for a long time. And then I took things that presented themselves to me. And did I sometimes like him? No, sometimes I did them for convenience. Sometimes I did them for money. And sometimes I did them because they were a springboard.

And sometimes I thought that I would like it and then I didn't. So our conversation is on multiple tracks. A piece of it is you're out of school and now the world hits you. And now you get the reality of what working in this society and in this labor market actually looks like. And there often is a disillusionment because you also have been steeped in a society that, pumps you with the idea of following your passion and choosing things and it's your freedom and you can be what you want and all these mega statements which are filtered through a cultural lens for you too and aeration lens but they are they still you know they're in the background

of they play the bass sure we are in the midst of our session There is still so much to talk about. So stay with us. Support for where should we begin comes from Masterclass. Have you finished all your holiday shopping, made your list and checked it twice? Well, then let me ask you this. Have you given yourself a gift?

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So where we are now in our conversation, if I asked you, what's the question that you bring today? And if you fine-tuned it, what would it be? I ask the simple way is like, how do I make peace with being enough or recognizing? that isn't that I'm enough. I don't have an answer for you on that one. Let me start with that. But I would like to ask you, have there been moments when you have it?

Have not felt like I was enough? Oh, yeah, for sure. Tell me some of them. Because if you've had the experience, you know, if I answered you this, it would be some bunch of generalities. I mean, it just, I don't have that kind of presumptive knowledge. But you may have had that experience.

And so let's see what wisdom we can draw from those exceptional moments. Yeah. I mean, I would even, I mean, there are a lot of ways I can go over this. I think when I look at over the last couple of years, I mentioned layoffs, you know how challenging it is to get a jaw rejection. I must not be enough for these people. If I was truly, truly good, they would have laid of someone else. If I was truly black excellent, black and excellent, they would have chosen me, right?

So I put all the work in in school and life, I'd have all the experiences. So I was truly excellent that they would have chosen me. If I was truly, you know, in an infinite relationship, you know, they could have chosen me, they could have stayed. Are you with someone now? No. Oh, no, we're in hiatus. I'm on hiatus. You're on hiatus.

So there is someone now, but you're on hiatus? There's nobody. There's nobody. Okay. You're on a romantic hiatus. Yes. Okay. Okay.

Yes, that's best. That's another session. But, you know, if I perform. So I think part of the, you know, when I was independent therapy, like my own therapist. We talked a little bit about like at the end of my relationship, you know, like still cooking and walking the dog, you know, as a way to perform enoughness. So that's how it's come up for me, you know, between jobs. You're like if you, if I do more, then that, that will make things work. And have you had moments when you have had glimpses into that enoughness?

when a certain calm sits in, when a sudden self-acceptance, when a wordiness, being, all of that. I think that comes up most when I'm around the people I love, you know, when there is not a performance, whether that's friends or family, you know. Tell me about your parents, because you mentioned your brother, your sister, or whichever parents. Yeah, my mom primarily raised me. My dad is in the picture, but I was also raised. My grandparents played a big role in that as well. My growth and my... Your mother's parents.

My mother's parents, yeah. And your father, was he in your life at all or not? Yeah. He was. I mean, we didn't live together. He didn't do the primary date of he raising. He was my mom and my grandparents, for the most part. But somebody can be in your life and have not been the one to raise.

you. That's right. I was raised by teachers. Right. The mentors and church people and the whole community of people. But a parent can be very present by their absence. So how present was he? Weekends here and there.

You're giving me the concrete answer. The concrete. Oh, I see. You know where I'm going. Not emotionally present. But does he have a big presence in your life, in your internal life? Oh, for sure, yeah, for sure. Yeah.

The voice, you know, people tell about the voice you hear in your head, like your parents' voice, yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Now that I'm older like, now that I've come into my own belief systems, like we're like polar opposites, you know. I lean more left. He's way over here right sometimes. So there's a difference there too.

So mom was the primary parent with grandparents and teachers. Correct. Any particular teacher that became the light that... I have so many, I call my other moms. I can't even pay that point one because there's so many who I could You're blessed, beautiful and just

You still call them Oh yeah, I still taught them I'm not at school teachers And we go out And do you ask them The question that you ask me I don't I'm not

That would be my assignment to you You are surrounded by people who have asked themselves the very question that you're asking and have the benefit of time, age, and experience to give you a sense of how they zigzact through this challenge. How do I feel enough and experience a moment of deserving,

of wording, us without having to constantly have to prove myself as a black man maybe not all the teachers are black none of them are men none of them are men so we need to find other men in your circles older men I still talk to my grandfather who's like 86 we talk every day so great and have Have you ever asked him? I've not had that kind of quote. I never had that question.

You have, you know, this is an example of resilience, where you actually tap into the resources of your family and your community, and you ask them, how have they mastered these existential, societal challenges? how have they dealt with adversity, how have they dealt with racism, how have they dealt with being laid off, how have they dealt with job uncertainty, how have they dealt with job changes? I mean, all the things that you are experiencing, you have a beautiful community, you have a rich community of people, that's the first ones you turn to. And you ask them those very questions because I wouldn't.

really not be surprised to know that every single one of them has had those very same questions. How do you deal with this idea that if I was really, really excellent, I would not have been the one laid off, it would have been somebody else maybe, or they would have kept me, which many people have, but you get it with an extra. It's not an uncommon reasoning of driven people to say, you know, I should be here. But at the same time, as I say, I should be here, there is a voice that says, maybe I'm not good enough to be here. Otherwise, I would be here.

And that many of us can relate to, I can relate, been there. But within your context, it has a whole other layer. whole other historical weight. And that doesn't mean you go to do therapy sessions with your folks. It just says, I have some questions. I'm just really curious. I know, I'm sure I'm not the only one who's dealing with this. And you're 80-something.

You must have got this over and over in your life. What can you share with me? or even with your friends when they and more than one for that matter when you just say guys I met this woman with an accent

she told me she gave me a strange assignment and she said she had a question for all of you and she made me ask it because it's a relief sometimes when this finally enters into

the public square. Yeah. And that's what's helped me. I think understanding that like grief, all these heavy, even joy and grief, all these heavy emotions are the way that we experience. Like, what's helped me is realizing that I'm not alone in any of it. And so the more I share, the more sort of normalizes it. Absolutely. And the more that I've been able to like move forward. So we talk about the challenging breakup. And it will lay off in the same week to talk about the grief surrounding that. And you

And all my friends and family was like, I've dealt with the same thing. I've seen it. I've been through divorce. And people will reveal things that I'm like, I did not have any idea. Yes, yes. I have no idea. Yes. You've been married before.

Right, right. All the skeletons come out. Right. No, no, you're absolutely right. But it doesn't have to be just when you're in the midst of an acute crisis. It's easier to do it when you're in the mid because it kind of. blurts out of you. But I think actually when you calm,

more, when there's not an imminent situation, to then just say, how do you deal with this? What's helped you? What's worked for you? Who do you reach out to? And sometimes people don't have pity answers,

you know, this is how you do it. But there is something in the solidarity that is huge. Feeling I'm normal, feeling I'm not alone, feeling people learn to live with it and they turn certain things around and they surround themselves.

The most important thing is they surround themselves so that they can't personalize it and make it about themselves only. Sometimes I think these kinds of complex problems are actually not problems that we solve but paradoxes that we must. manage.

It's like living in that ambiguity or living in that gray space or that livingality. Yeah. And I think that's the discomfort from you sitting like how do you sit in that paradox? You, this is a lifetime learning. Because at first you're really angry every time you are laid off or every time you thought you wanted something and then it turned out not to be the thing you wanted. And then gradually you develop clarity, kindness, compassion, solidarity, ability to live with the complexity, the imperfections.

And slowly, what you hope to not get into is a defeat. I'll never be able to prove it. So I may just as well stop trying. versus I don't really need to prove it. And I'll continue to try because it's what I like and is who I am, but not to the degree of an imagined world outside that needs to accept me, validate me.

I'll turn to people who do validate me, black or white or any other curle, for that matter. The validation can come from everywhere. how does that sound to you it sounds and it resonates me on every level outside of career this touches every part of my life

so the recognition that I can continue life you know without validation external validation being the driving force or being the thing that is the linchpin behind

why I show up or how I show up Yes, certainly less of it. I don't think it's an all or nothing. But it becomes less, what you call it, a linchpin. Well, thank you so much. You too. Thank you very, very much. This was an Astaire calling, a one-time intervention.

phone call, recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Astaire, could be answered in a 40 or 50-minute phone call. Send her a voice message, and Astaire might just call you. Send your question to, producer at esterapurell.com. Where should we begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise? We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network, in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut.

Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julianette. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of where should we begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul. If you're tired of database limitations and architectures that break when you scale, then it's time to think outside rows and columns. MongoDB is the database built for developers, by developers. It's acid-compliant, enterprise-ready, and fluent in AI.

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