Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - There's You, There's Me, There's US

Episode Date: April 29, 2024

This is a classic session, from the first season of Where Should We Begin? A middle-aged couple, together for seventeen years, best friends and partners who, despite their loving and positive relationship, go months without connecting sexually. He transitioned 10 years ago, and they’re both experiencing the physical changes of aging. Esther guides them through body exercises, in an effort to help them find sexual spaces amidst the crush of everyday life. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What you are about to hear is a classic session of Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel. None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel's, and each episode is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real. You know, the first couple of years that we were dating and were together, we had a lot of really good sex. I consider us really sexually compatible.

It was amazing because I was like, oh my God, I've met somebody who's, you know, as into it as I am. And then, like about a year later, it started to peter off. You know, I got a really high stress job and my reaction to stress was to kind of like just lock my sex drive away and be like, I can't think about that. I don't want to deal with it. I just pick one more thing on my to-do list and I have a million things. There's some block around sex that's really hard on the day-to-day, so we'll go, you know, months. We started to get into this dynamic where I would ask and then feel kind of rejected, because I would get a no. I've put on weight in the past five years and I don't feel as good about my body, so it's harder for me to, like, think about initiating sex.

I was like, I don't want to initiate all the time. I want you to initiate. I think that was hard for her because that was a really different role that she hadn't ever occupied. And I was shifting the rules on her. And it was really, I think I was asking a lot. This is a couple that is together 17 years. They are a strong couple, deeply connected, close friends, very tied with each other, having gone through major life-changing experiences together, who also identify the lack of sexual interest and relevance at this moment in their life, and the multiple factors that have influenced it, including body changes.

I know we get seen as a straight couple. We're not a straight couple. So like one of my rare things about therapists are that they're going to think everything has to do with me being trans, which it doesn't. And it's frustrating for both of us. And at the same time, you know, it's not perfect. Like I still do have things about my body that feel uncomfortable. And so I'm sure on some level I'm not as secure, like, in me.

You know, I remember once we were sexually intimate, and I touched him, and he said, don't touch me like that, you're touching me like a girl. And it really freaked me out. And I was like and i don't know how to touch you i don't know how to have sex with you in a way that makes you feel good about your body this is where should we begin with esther perel we actually met doing theater and we got cast in a play together.

We didn't have any scenes together. I thought you were straight at the time for one. Because she kept talking about her ex-boyfriend. And I didn't know that you liked me. And so I said, I've been thinking about kissing you a lot. And then we made out for three hours. And that was the beginning of our 17 year relationship. And so I said, I've been thinking about kissing you a lot. And then we made out for three hours. Yeah.

And that was the beginning of our 17-year relationship. Yeah. You were dating across the spectrum? It was sort of my first relationship relationship with someone at the time who was a woman. If not totally a woman identified. You identified as what at that time? I was really Butch so I was a very, I guess. You identified as a Butch. As a Butch. Which is sort of its own. And it says what for you? To me it

meant like masculinity that was who I was but I knew I was in this other body but Butch also to me was the relationship that I could have with a woman who was femme. And it might look like something that looked heteronormative on the outside, but it was different. If someone pushed me, I'd push them back, and I'd play pool, and I'd wear my leather jacket.

And I was probably at the time, I can see how I overcompensated my masculinity, because I really needed to be seen a certain way, in the that after I transitioned some of that went away and I just felt like I didn't have to prove it so much anymore and I could just be myself. I didn't have to wear a leather jacket if I don't want to. I don't have to sit with my like ankle on my knee. It was just more ease to everything after I transitioned. I did not I had a reluctance to be like, oh, I found the one. I found the one person I'm going to be with for the rest of my life because

I'm 21. This is too early. Like, can I ask you something? Yeah. You say I didn't think this was going to be the one. So when he transitioned, did you have a feeling like it was the continuation of the same relationship or did you actually have the sense of, oh, I have another partner? Oh, no. I mean, it was like the one thing that did not feel like a question. I mean, I think for him, he had a lot of fear that I would leave. I never identified as a lesbian. I never identified as someone who was only going to, you know, it didn't shake me in that way.

So there was never a question in my mind that I would leave. This is the love of my life. This is, whenever I think about my future, I think about this person. And that is still the case. And that's still the case. So love didn't move. Love didn't waver. And attraction?

I thought actually that there would be things that I would miss about his body that actually didn't turn out to be like when he got top surgery. I thought I would have a really hard time does he knew any of this you do okay his breasts were I knew that he was uncomfortable with them I knew that he did not have the same relationship to them that I did but by the time he got the surgery, he had been taking hormones. He started wearing like a surgical binder every day. And it really changed the shape of his chest. It wasn't a woman's body that I was losing. It had already, it just took like a shift in my brain.

And I'm like, oh, this is now, this is a man's body. And, and there were sort of two things that helped me in terms of the way that his body was changing. And one was, um, you know, this is the person that I was going to be with for the rest of my life. My body isn't going to look the same. My body is going to change. We're going to get old together. Like his body isn't going to stay like this anyway. And then the other thing that helped was thinking about parents and when their kids hit puberty.

Is there a part of you that wishes they could stay? Very nice. Is there a part of you that wishes they could stay, you know, pre-beard and pre-different smell of their skin? Yeah, of course there's a part of you that wishes that. You want them to stay a little kid. But they're just becoming more themselves. They're becoming who they're supposed to be. We will change. We will evolve. We grow older and our bond stays steady and our appearances fluctuate. Beautiful answer. How about you?

Which part of it? You pick a person, you pick a story. We can go right back to the beginning. What drew you? Which part of it? There's so much. You pick a person, you pick a story. We can go right back to the beginning. What drew you? I had the sense right away that she saw me like the me on the inside that I never really felt like people could see. Like for the first time somebody was not kissing what they needed me be, but was genuinely seeing who I was and kissing that person. And that felt like the first time that had ever happened.

Do you still kiss? We do, but it's not always like that. It's funny because I sometimes think, God, we're starting to kiss each other like your parents kiss each other. Like pecs? Yeah. And I want to like kiss the way we used to, think, God, we're starting to kiss each other like your parents kiss each other. Like packs. Yeah. And I want to like kiss the way we used to, but it's hard to figure out how to make that kiss happen.

Let's let the birds leave the house. No packs. Yeah. With people. It happens when we've been together for two or three days and we're on vacation and work is gone and we're not home. That becomes possible again, where the kissing feels like kissing again. But it feels somehow, I don't know, it's gotten very hard in the day to day. What would happen if you took her face and you kissed it the way you want to kiss it.

She would shrug me off or say not right now. And also part of me can't feel, like it's hard for me to feel it in myself. Like I used to have a very high sex drive and I used to want to have sex all the time. This is before hormones. Yeah, before hormones. And as a butch, I think I very much understood my role in sex as the top and the initiator and all those things. And then after I transitioned, and also we had been together a number of years, there was a part of me that's like, I don't want to initiate all the time. I want her to initiate, which I think was really hard. It was a change

of rules. And I don't think that was a really comfortable place for you to be. Once he transitioned, he was allowed to no longer abide by the strict, stereotypic narratives of masculinity as to how a man should act sexually, for example. He became much freer to decide, do I want to initiate? Do I feel like initiating? I love for my partner to initiate as well. I no longer need to be the initiator as the marker of masculinity. I just am. At the same time, sexual scripts in couples change frequently. And in this couple, it's very tempting sometimes to assume when you have a very dominant identifier, trans, that everything has to be related to the fact that he is trans, rather than

to understand that there may be places where this is more central and other places when it is more context than cause. We have to take a brief break. Stay with us. He needed to feel like I was attracted to his body as it was changing. He needed to feel like I wanted, you know, to have sex with him. I was trying to figure out what does that mean if I'm the seducer, you know, and also had, you know, moments of like, why do we have to change the way that we have sex? Can I give me the reverse for a moment?

The dominant story is I liked his being the pursuer. I wasn't always comfortable being the initiator. That's the dominant story. And part of what I want us to do today is to emphasize the lesser obvious parts. Because when you travel, when you're on vacation, when you are relaxed, you can find each other. So you have it. It's in the system. What you're asking is how do we bring vacation home on occasion?

Think of one time when you were the initiator, the one that affirms him, and where you felt good about it. When was it? For your birthday, I just said, I'm going to give you a blow job tonight a regular or a special just anything any any sexual activity start with the basics um but yeah so and then I think I texted you during the day that was like looking forward to tonight. So you played with him? Yeah, I mean like flirted a little and then. And the face that you have now is a face of enjoyment. Not just a face of I owe this to him after all it's his birthday.

But really is I own my desire and I'm going to build this anticipation with him and I'm going to let him fantasize about it throughout the day look forward to it anticipate it and with that increase the tension and the intensity and then like when I think about initiating, sometimes I'll think, oh, I could go for a little sex right now. Like I could have, you know, I'm feeling a little something.

My assumption is that if I go to you and say, want to make out? He'll say, whoa, I need time to get there. Like, I'm not, I can't just jump into it, you know? And that's a deterrent for you? Yeah, it feels like a deterrent. It feels like, like, it feels like I'm putting pressure on you

to, like, get to a sexual place. A little bit. She's got the pulse. She's on the mark. Yeah, yeah. For me, I feel like I have buried my sex drive somewhere that I can't even find it sometimes. And so if there's no sexual energy whatsoever

and then all of a sudden she's like, let's make out, I feel like I can't find it. I feel shitty for not being able to just pull it out and be ready to have sex, but I can't figure out how to. But that's not unusual that one person is in the mood, one person is hungry, one person wants to take a walk, one person wants to talk, and the other person wasn't there at the same time with the same thing. And the whole communication is actually about bringing the other person into the experience.

So whatever you would want in order to get in the mood to join her can start now. Yeah, that's true. There have been so many years where there's so much sort of pressure around it that we both jump to this place of feeling guilty or feeling like I anticipate a moment of like, I'm not doing this right. I think sometimes it feels like I just have to be there. There's no easing me into the place. Why?

Probably because I'm not good at saying, can we slow down and can I have these things first? Yeah, and why not? I'm not, I'm really terrible at asking for, like, I want this or this would help. I don't know. I'm just, I'm bad at at asking for, like, I want this or this would help. I don't know. I'm just bad at it. At what?

I just want to make sure I understand this. Is it about saying, bring me there? Take me? Slowly? Turn me on? Yes. Make it happen? Yes.

Like, I don't know. Like, if it's asking too much or it's... Or you have endorsed a masculine view that you should just... I mean, on some level, I think I feel like, oh, a good partner would be ready to go. Which I mean, in my mind, I know that that is not totally logical, but it's just it used to be so the case that I was always ready to go. And so I think I get mad at myself for not being ready and I feel like you're not seeing me. And that's hard. I guess that's like the very opposite of the first time when we kissed and I felt totally seen. And now I guess I don't feel that. And what is at stake in saying, slow down?

That she will then say, never mind. And that will be it. And we won't have any sex and it won't go anywhere. And it will never happen for another three months or four months or something. Where did you learn not to ask? I don't know. I don't know. I'm bad at asking, and I think there are times when I have asked for something. I think, oh, I asked for this certain kind of play, and then she never went there again.

I think she hates it. I don't think she really likes doing it. She was just doing it for me. Do we know that she doesn't like to do it? Or you've basically asked a question and offered your own answer? Yeah, and part of me thinks, I told you I like it. But left to your own devices, you don't go there, so maybe you don't. So I think you don't like it. And you've never asked?

No, I guess. You prefer to assume and you've never asked no I guess you prefer to assume she assumes that you don't really want to you assume she doesn't like it's you actually you're making out with your assumptions yeah I don't it's so weird assumptions here somehow it feels bizarre that the person I trust the most and makes me the most happy and I would tell anything to is the one person I feel the most nervous around when it comes to sex. Yes, I'm glad we think it's bizarre. It is, but I don't know. This is the anatomy of one of the common sexual impasses. I won't initiate, she says, because if he's not instantly responding to me with the same enthusiasm, then I feel that I'm putting pressure on him and I'd rather not, so I don't bother. He won't tell her, slow down, let me get into it, let me build my own steam,

because if he tells her what he wants, she will say, I won't bother, drop it. And so both of them, experiencing the vulnerability and the embarrassment of putting themselves out there, assuming that the other person may not respond in kind, end up retreating as a way to protect themselves. And that creates one of the most entrenched logics of sexual avoidance. Would you care to check rather than assume? I mean, both of you are here. But then part of it feels like

I'm doing all the work. Like, I'm checking, I'm asking, then I'm checking. Each of you will do a small gesture. And if the other one doesn't immediately respond in kind, you pull back, you assume rejection, you assume the other one isn't interested,

I pressure him, I make her do things she doesn't like. If you really trust each other, as much as you both say you do, ask. It seems easier said than done. Yes, because the only way it becomes easier is by doing it. Not the sex. At this point, you don't need to do sex. And by the way, I never think sex is just something you do. I think it's a place you go.

And one of the places where you are both going at this moment is to rejection, lack of interest, lack of being seen, all negative thoughts. I think like when we're not together, when I travel and stuff, then like if sex is a place we go, then I imagine that when we come home, we will be in that place. Not the act of it, but just the energy of it and the flirtation of it and that stuff. But then when we come back together, immediately it's through in the day to day, this is what happened at work and this is this, and this is the chore. But that's not what blocks you. That's normal life. Yeah. What blocks you is

that when you transition from the domestic to the erotic, you transition with a bucket of negative thoughts, negative anticipation, which then acts as a confirmation bias. What you're afraid will happen will happen because you're making it happen. You will cut and curtail every step. I can feel myself doing it as you're saying this. Good. I'm like, yeah, okay, but I'll ask for what I want, but she's going to be thinking about work, or I'm going to say, oh, let's think about what we might do this weekend and have some time where we could be in bed more,

and then she's going to be like, yeah, but I have to do this email, or she's going to be checking Facebook. And then? And then I'm going to feel like, well, she didn't care about having sex with me and it doesn't... She doesn't want to and this is stupid to ask and I should just go do something in my own world or go watch some porn or just take care of it myself or... Now let's play this out. Yeah.

Do it. It feels harder to do it. You met in theater. Excuse me. I write my lines down at first and then I act them. It's not improv. I don't improv at all. This is not improv. You've been doing this for many years. This is a terrible scene you've been playing. I'm just going to try to redirect it for a moment. The research on sexuality and the work of Emily Nagoski has really put forward this idea of the dual control system. And the dual control system is that when it comes to sexuality, we all have an accelerator and we have brakes. We have that which heightens the excitement and the enthusiasm and that which heightens the inhibitions and the stifling. And we tend to think that we will be more interested, we will have more sexual energy if we heighten the accelerator. But in this couple and in most cases,

it actually is about loosening the brakes. And when he says, I feel like I'm doing it right now, he's basically showing me his brake system. We are in the midst of our session and there is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break. So stay with us. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Squarespace.

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or offering memberships, you can make your website look exactly how you want it to be. They even have tools that help you create a custom logo. And they make it easy to create a place where people can schedule an appointment with you, browse your services, or learn more about why you do what you do. Visit squarespace.com slash Esther for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code Esther to save 10% of your first purchase of a website or domain. When I was traveling, I was excited about the thought of coming back.

And I thought, I wonder if we could just have a weekend or a day where nobody was around and we didn't do anything but take showers and lay around naked and laugh and be silly and make out and... Just you and me. Yeah. I guess this feels selfish. I just want to feel like the most important thing in your mind for a while. Say that again. I just want to feel like the most important thing in your world for a while.

That sounds really wonderful. Say it again. It sounds wonderful. It sounds like the best weekend that we've had in a really long time. Is there stuff that you want? When you were just talking about, you know, when you were away and thinking about coming home and making out. And I would love it if you would tell me that.

Like, I feel like I spent a couple of years really struggling with how I was as a lover. Like, if I was making you feel good about yourself, if I was helping affirm your body. And I got really nervous about everything that I was doing. Like it was hard to feel confident. So like hearing that, it makes me feel sexy that you would like come home and say, I want you to do this to me or I want us to do this. I think it feels like selfish for me to ask for things that I want because when I was a butch it was always about what I was going to give but I never like receiving felt so uncomfortable back then that now I feel like I'm being that guy to be like this is what

I want and this is I don't know which is which obviously is not you're saying it would be a good thing to hear. I just... You're asking while you're holding your hands in between your knees and your shoulders round over. Yes, that is true. It's a body that feels shy. Open this body and ask her the same thing. And remember, what she just told you is that when you say this, her experience is not that you are being selfish. Her experience is that you're making her feel special.

Did you hear that? I did. Did you? Yes. Yes. Yes. That's a very different thing. But I like having sex.

But I'm a... Okay, right now you're squeezing your legs. Yeah, I'm squirming. I used to be so much sexier. What you used to be is what you used to be. And at this moment, it's what you want to be. Okay. Imagine, now I'm totally scrunched over yeah and i say i love you i want you do you want to be with me how does that look terrible okay now imagine i open my body and my

arms why do i say i don't love you i don't want to be with you is that believable it's impossible do it with me for a second. I just want you to imagine. And find your own words for this. Now you're totally scrunched over like... It's just an acting exercise, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I think you will know the difference.

It is a much more vulnerable thing to do to say it. But I want you to experience it in your body. Your whole life story is about this body, the changes of this body, the truth of the body, the authenticity of your body. So you need to learn to have a coherence between the way your body speaks to voice and the words you use. Okay. Really tight and small. And I'd say, I really like having sex with you So it's really tight and small and I'd say, I really like having sex with you and it's fun

and I wanna have it more often and I love you and I wish we were doing more things together and spending time together. Sounds terrible. With your arms really crossed and your body really hunched over. But I feel very safe. It sounds terrible and I feel safe.

And I feel like if she rejects me, my arms still love me and I can take them and go away. Correct. It's a body that says, I would love for you to come in to visit me inside, but I'm so sure that you won't come that I've already closed it with triple lock in the beginning. So don't bother. I'm just kind of sending this out there, but I have no intention and no belief that this would actually happen. That is very true. That is pretty spot on for what is in my head. Put it in your own words and put the body to it. I want to ask, but I think you're going to say no anyway. And so I don't see what the point is in asking. And I'm just going to be mad at you and then go somewhere else and do something else and not even care because I don't care anymore

and I don't need to have sex and who cares? Whatever. That is the best come on one has ever heard. That is quite a fabulous script of self-defeat. Try to say the same thing with the body open, with your arms open. What's the point of having sex? We're never going

to have sex. No, keep your hands. You see, it's impossible. We're never going to have sex. It's going to be terrible. It's going to be terrible. And you're just going to reject me and I'm going to crawl away into that corner over there. Look at her.

Not even care when you reject me. Why is it harder here? So what you experience here is the need for him to create a coherence, a consonance between the words, the verbal language, and the language of the body. And we speak with the language of the body for 18 months before we utter the first words. It is our mother tongue. And that language is what we are trying to match now with his words, so that he goes from this complete scrunched up position to really owning it, grounding himself, breathing, putting the weight into his pelvic floor. And from that place, if he says, I really want you, she probably can believe him. If he says it from this frightened,

totally, you know, folded over place, what she will read is, I need you to take care of me. I'm scared. I'm worried. Reassure me. That's a different message. What was it like for you to see him ask from the scrunched up position and ask from the I own it position? I think the scrunched up position made me feel more nervous to enter in. That feeling of like, am I going to do this wrong? It definitely doesn't feel sexual.

Like I'm going to now seduce you from your fetal position. So it felt like, I mean, instead of a seductive feeling, it feels like taking care of this emotional state. And from the open position, I had the urge to stand up and hug him or like there was a funny element. So if one of us like did something that the other, you know, like it wouldn't be the end of the connection.

It would just, we'd just roll with it and be able to, yeah, like communicate and have fun with it. Should we do it again? Sure. Let's get up. But this time we're asking. We're going from I don't get to ask because I'm just here to give

to I get to claim. And the biggest turn on all over the world is confidence. If you come with the insecurities, the fears, the defeating narratives, she'll want to take care of you. But she will never be desirous of you. She'll want to nurture you. That's a different feeling. That kind of caretaking is not part. No, it's not. Okay. Finish the sentence. It's not part of having sex.

Okay. Or being intimate in that way. Alright. It's beautiful, but it's different. Something else. So, let's take your claim. I want to be the only thing that's happening. Breathe. You have to breathe.

In sexuality, there is breath, movement and sound. I want to spend time with you. I want to be the most important thing going on with you. I want to laugh. I want to feel sexy. But that's my responsibility, I think. I will try to bring the sexy. Because I have it.

It just gets lost, but I will bring it. Keep going. This body of yours is beginning to own this. So keep going. I want to feel like I am a whole person and a whole sexual person. And I want to feel like you want something and I want to give it to you. And I want to figure out, I want to know what that is. Beautiful.

Ground yourself again. And now just keep going. And I just want to not talk and look at you and sometimes kiss you and have everything be kind of loose and easy. I want to spend time with you and not have to know where we're going. And you can ask him, and what else do you want? What else do you want? What else do you want? I want your hand on my chest. I know that, like, my eyesight is going,

and you're a little blurrier when you get close, but I want to have those moments where I can look into your eyes again and we're not in a hurry. And I can see things, and I can tell you what I see and you're interested. Go back to the being special. I want to feel like I am the most important thing to you and like when you're with me everything else disappears and it's just me and you and maybe us and those are the three, the three in the room.

What else? Geez. What else? I want to feel wanted. I want to feel like if I get a hard-on it's exciting and not a burden. I want to feel like my body is exciting and fun and sexy and I want it to be us first. And everything else second or third or fourth. I want it to be us first. These are tears of joy, sadness,

longing. I feel sad when... I hear you say that you don't feel like you're the most important thing. I think... my mind wants to jump from there to like guilt or I must be, you know, a terrible partner if you feel like you're not important in my life. He says how wonderful you are and how he wants to be so important and you hear the whole thing as you're not doing a good job and you're deficient and you're inadequate and once as you're not doing a good job and you're deficient

and you're inadequate and once again you fucked up who's that voice yeah there's always a part of me that's like well you could be doing more and where did you learn that sentence in kindergarten probably from watching my mom. And from being the caretaker of parts of my family dynamic. It's my job to make everyone feel better. So when he says, I want something, you hear, what am I doing wrong or not enough? You don't really listen to what he says he wants. Yeah. Because you could have a reaction that says, that's a wonderful thing he wants from me i'm so glad

that i'm the one he wants this from but you take it and instantly bang yourself with it so that voice if we put that one a bit aside what's the other one that can come out there are a bunch of them so yeah um it just all sounds like the way we're supposed to be. Like the way that we're supposed to be together. Like fun and connected and communicating with each other. So it's like, I'm not sure if you think it's an issue because you think it should be different or because you really miss it. Which is it?

I miss it. I miss it. If you miss it, it hurts. It's a void. You miss it? I miss it. Tell him what you miss. He needs to hear it. I miss my hands on your body.

I miss the way you touch me. I miss you inside me. I miss feeling sexy, like you are attracted to me I miss making you feel good about yourself it doesn't feel complete without feeling like we want each other and we just miss like it feeling fun and easy and not tied up with all these feelings of, how do we do this right? Feels so hard. If I can think about coming home and kissing you and really being present for it. That you're going to do from the moment you leave here.

You're going to create a ritual for coming home where you put your devices down and you go and you really make a connection. You don't just lift your head half and say hi or don't even lift your head anymore because you're in the middle of a text. Do we have a commitment on that? Yes.

You have to say it. Yes. I said it with my body. Yes, I saw that. I said it with my body. All of this is part of sexuality. All of this. If there's no two people acknowledging each other, who's going to have sex with whom here? And when

you are absorbed, sometimes you can ask what do you need? And sometimes you will tell her you have 10 minutes. That's okay. So said the doctor. The doctor said I could said i can say you need it on a prescription and you do it from a place of confidence that is i know what you need in those moments that

you can't give yourself and i'll help you with that i I can't put things aside and say, let's hang. It's harder for her. Help her. And she may argue a little bit, but I need to, it's important. And you just say, I know, I know. It's very important. But so is this.

You had a beautiful thing. You said, there's me, there's you, there's us. But so is this. You had a beautiful thing. You said, there's me, there's you, there's us. Us needs this now. Us needs an electricity bill that's paid. Us needs nice sheets on the bed. And us needs now some attention. So she tends to a zillion projects. You tend for the idol.

She will thank you. She's already thanking you. Much of what I do in the session is about loosening the brakes. So I send them off with an exercise in which they would write down the positive anticipation so that when they're about to put the foot on the brake and come up with all the negative cognitions about the anticipated rejection rather than the anticipated connection, they can go back and look at their own list and remember that they have an alternative right there in front of them. But the importance of the exercise is the understanding that it's a practice and you do it even when you're not really in need of it. See, we all know that when we go to the doctor and we are in pain, we are very motivated.

I'm doing all my back exercises, you know, every day now. And the minute it starts to feel a little bit better, I do them less often. So the paradox here is that we have a greater incentive for change when we are more in pain or even when there is a crisis. But we have greater latitude for creativity when we are doing fine. And you want to uphold these two. So for this couple, the idea is to shift them from a place of crisis to a place of positive maintenance. You just heard a classic session of Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. To apply with your partner for a session on the podcast, for the transcripts or show notes on each episode,

or to sign up for Esther's monthly newsletter, go to estherperel.com. Esther Perel is the author of Mating in Captivity in the State of Affairs. She also created a game of stories called Where Should We Begin? For details, go to her website, estherperel.com.