Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - To Make Room for My Brother I Learned to Disappear

Episode Date: May 18, 2026

With her wedding just weeks away, a young woman calls Esther with a question she’s been carrying for most of her life: how do you allow yourself joy when you’ve learned to make yourself small? Growing up alongside a non-speaking autistic brother taught her to be vigilant, self-effacing, and attuned to everyone else’s needs. Joy and celebration have always come with guilt. As the wedding approaches, those old patterns threaten to keep her on emotional eggshells during one of the most meaningful days of her life. Together, they explore what it means to grow up as the “easy” child, and how claiming space does not betray the people we love. Esther Callings are a one time, 45-60 minute interventional phone call with Esther. They are edited for time, clarity, and anonymity. If you have a question you would like to talk through with Esther, send a voice memo to [e-mail]. Producer’s Note: When our anonymous guests do a session with Esther for the podcast, it is an act of generosity for everyone who listens. These sessions are meant not only to support the people in the room with Esther, but all of us who learn from their stories. Our stories have many chapters, and what you hear is just one moment in someone’s journey. So even though the sessions are anonymous, please remember that real people are behind them and they may be reading your comments. Also, please join me on Entre Nous, my new home on Substack for anyone who wants to live, love, and work with more connection and imagination. I invite you to sign up and become a free or paid member at estherperel.substack.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, Esther. I'm getting married in just over a month, and while I am really excited and anticipating the event, I'm also concerned that I'll get in the way, get it my own way of experience and joy. And getting married, you know, it's, well, it's a super happy occasion. It's brought up some difficult feelings as well. Some of the contacts behind that, my older brother, it's just the two of us, is non-speaking autistic and lives with my parents at home. And I think there's always been some comparison between the two of us. I don't think done by my parents so much, but I think between him and I, where I have always been hyper aware of the things that I could do that he couldn't.

And I think the same goes for him. and in some ways I think I've been surprised how moving away from home and getting on with my life, going to college, and going on different adventures, and ultimately now being in a serious relationship and deciding together to get married, it feels like my life keeps moving. well, there's some stagnation just by the realities of his disability and those limitations. And I guess my question for you in regards to all this is, how do I give myself permission to be happy at what I want to be one of the most joyful days of my life? and how do I not get in my own way, despite being hyper aware of how my wedding might affect him? Thank you.

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What's it like to listen? It's very difficult to... tell the story, I think, and talk about it openly. My brother has been very open with the public about what he's been through, but I haven't. And I don't know, there's an aspect of it that almost feels a little bit like a betrayal, even though I don't think it actually is. That's just where it sits. And the betrayal, I assume from what you're saying, is not that. you're betraying him, but you're betraying your own silence. It feels maybe like a little bit of both.

You know, I think it's actually not something that I hadn't thought about until pretty recently, but like introducing the idea of secrecy and a secret in a family. And in some ways, like I said, we've been very open about how challenging his autism has been for him, but we all feel kind of protective. It almost feels like it's not my place, even though it's my story, too. When you say it's not my story to tell, your story is not that you have nonverbal autism. Your story is that you're growing up and have grown up with a brother who is disabled. Yes.

And what it's like to live with a sibling. in that kind of relationship. Yes. A part of it is how hard it may have been, how different, but a part of it is also what it taught you. And the perspective on the world and on our lives and on what is possible and what is not and for whom that is deeply embedded in you

because you had it on a daily basis in front of you. So it's not just the challenges. It's a whole perspective. Okay. Tell me more because we just met. I'm not going to talk for you. There's a lot that you learn from having a disabled sibling, you know, like I mentioned in my question. I think we have both been so hyper aware of our differences.

Before you go there, finish your thought. There's a lot you learn. What are some of the things that are coming to the wedding with you, that are coming to your relationship with you, and that are coming to the way you conceive of life with you? Because he touches you on many levels. Yes. To start, that I am not the center of the universe,

that I think I understood at a very young age, that there were other needs that were more demanding and pressing than mine. I learned how to set my own emotions and problems aside at a very young age, I think, to make life easier for my parents. Did you do it and came out with a good sense of humility? Or did you do it and came up with too much of a sense of a sense? of being self-effacing? I think there's a dose of humility, a lot of guilt.

I think that's what's coming. A big thing that's coming with me is, you know, in learning not to be or to be so uncomfortable with attention and I'm very used to kind of stepping into the background. And now all of a sudden a wedding is thrusting me into the limelight. Yeah, in a different way. And that makes me uncomfortable. And I think also, you know, I learned I learned to be kind of private. Like when I always had good friends growing up, but it was it was rare for me to have them over at the house. You know, like they would come, but generally I'd go to their houses. And I kind of, I kind of, whether this was intentional or not, I kind of learned

that having good things was gloating. Because he would watch me with my friends or I would succeed in something. And a lot of the time, it felt like instead of being happy for me, it made him sad. And it made you guilty. It made me feel guilty.

So that was one sequence. When good things happened to me, I look at him, I see his sadness, and it curtails my ability to enjoy the good thing. Yes. Because I feel instantly that what I have is something he doesn't have. It always sits in a comparison. Yes. And so being in a relationship, getting married, having my own life, moving on,

every single one of these major transitions in life are compromised experiences for me where the better they are the more the voice of guilt tells me what what does it say how could you like i think there's a lot of sadness in it i do feel sad for him that he can't do a lot of these things like i'm leaving him behind and it's neither one of our faults it's just what it is but it makes me very sad sad is not guilt sad is you've been next to him and often helpful to him too i try it's not always intuitive how to help but yes i i do try how do you communicate together he has a letterboard so like an alphabet board or an iPad. If it's iPad, it can dictate with a speech button at the end. But either way,

I think because there's so much sensory overwhelmint and distraction baked into the autism that he has, someone has to be there who he trusts, who kind of keeps him on task of communication. And so we do communicate occasionally, but it's arduous. And also, I've never had to be. a private conversation just him and I, my mom, because she's his primary communication partner, has always been in the room. So I've never been able to say something to him and have him say it back or say something back just the two of us. And what do you know about his experience of your upcoming wedding, marriage, leaving? Um, my fiancée. My fiancé And I have told him that we had no real expectations for him where we don't care if he needs space to go off by himself.

And we told him that we want him to feel as free to participate in the ways that he can and come engage when he wants. And then he can go and be off by himself when he needs space or feels overwhelmed or whatever's going on for him. will your mother be able to be with you or will she need to attend to him? One of his aides who comes to the house pretty often they do stuff together is going to be at the wedding the entire time. So I'm glad about that means both my parents will be able to, hopefully, I'm not sure how it will actually pan out, but hopefully it means that they can just engage in the wedding. I'm not sure how that'll go. So you say I've learned to put my needs aside.

It has made me somewhat humble, but it has also made me sometimes conflicted about putting my needs forward. Yes. It's as if I just know my place if I'm in the background and if I can handle everything myself. But I've wished sometimes to be able to be more forward, to be able to have the attention on me,

to be able to celebrate myself. But the minute I begin, I think I'm like breaking a taboo. Yes, it feels wrong. Right. And that's where we are here? Yeah. Okay.

And wrong says what? It says you're selfish. How can you think about yourself when your brother is in the condition that he is? why don't you know your place in the background all the time make yourself small make yourself invisible make yourself needless yeah I think I learned to

make myself needless at least that's what I said I felt but obviously no one's actually that way are we clear on that yes are we very clear on that at least intellectually. Let's go down from the head down.

Let's travel for a minute. Are we really clear on that? Yes, I try to sit with that. Yeah, that's a major voice as well as asking for things feels selfish. And I think I felt both these things for my whole life. Was it reinforced? by my parents? Yeah, and whoever else is around.

But yes, was it reinforced or is that a self-imposed and then well-accepted? I don't know. I mean, I think, I do think it was reinforced. I don't know that, again, I feel defensive. I think that's a big part of it, too, is like, I know how hard my parents have. worked that I don't want to add more burden on them. Yeah and so I again I feel guilty to even say that maybe they reinforced it but because I know they've been trying so hard but yeah thinking back on certain things I I do have incidents I remember where I think as a kid I learned I learned to put

my needs aside. What just came up? There's a story my cousin reminded me of several years ago when she was staying with us my nuclear family when we were kids

and I had a goldfish bowl in my room and my brother just saw the fish moving around and it looked you know, it was like a stim where he just wanted to grab the goldfish and he did. And I came back to my room with the goldfish dead on my bedroom floor. And my mom came in and, you know, I was upset. And I don't even fully remember what she said, but my cousin said it made a huge impression on her where my mom

said that I, he didn't mean to and I shouldn't be upset or angry about it. And I didn't even know that I should feel any other way, but my cousin told me how shocked she was that I wasn't allowed to be angry. And I think that's a big part of the confusion too is when things like that would happen, where do you put the blame? Because he didn't mean to. and yet things happen. And you can have both feelings.

Yeah. You can be angry and you can be sad and you can be understanding. Yeah. You can know that he doesn't know and at the same time that in itself sometimes is very upsetting. I mean, he's a smart person.

It's not that he knows in grabbing the goldfish and putting, you know, leaving it on the floor that that's going to kill him. the goldfish. It's not from a lack of comprehension. So what do you think your mom wanted to do to make sure he didn't have a reaction? What was being managed? What was she trying to manage in that?

That's a good question. I think maybe me or us upsetting him further because he does get so angry at himself. Right. That's what I thought. Yeah. Yeah. So she was managing his reaction and she said, don't make a big deal, because if you make a deal, he's going to get so upset and I'm going to have to deal with another crisis. Yes. Another tantrum.

Yes. As if, and that's actually now that you say it, that's a big thing, like as if us managing our own emotions is protecting him. And so we often end up, the household feels like we're walking on eggshells all the time. Correct. Yes. We're not protecting him. We're managing him and protecting ourselves from his assaults. Yes.

Right. Because he can be very, he can flare up and be very quickly reactive. And so we will do all kinds of things just to make sure that there is no explosion. Yes. And everybody learned to mute themselves? Yes. All of us. Mom, dad, and you.

So your dad and your mom understand something about this. Yeah, we all do it. And has that been a conversation? Like what you're talking about with me, has that come up between you and your parents? More so in the last few years. And I do think things have gotten a little bit better as far as what people, what we all can acknowledge, but we are all still walking on eggshells. So I don't know how much, even though now, maybe the difference is now we're aware of it,

but we're not actually making space for ourselves. Right. Not even when you're amongst each other. If you say to your parents, I learned to efface myself. I learned to take little space. I learned to modulate my emotions and my reactions so that my brother wouldn't have a fit. I learned to make sure that I didn't burden the two of you because I felt that you have so much on your shoulders. So I wanted to be perfect, good student, good girl, good everything.

So you wouldn't have to worry about anything. But in effect, neither my needs nor my feelings much took precedence either because I felt you have so much on your hands already. Why bother you with me? Yeah, I think to the point where for a long time I didn't even know how to recognize my own feelings. I'd ignored them for so long. And did you learn more about that? How do you mean? Did you learn to know you have them and to identify them and to name them and to meet them?

Yeah, it's the last, I think going to college and everything I've done since giving me some space has been really helpful and a good therapist. So I have, it's been a process, but I have met them. We're still getting to know each other though. Hello, hello, feelings of mine. We have to take a brief break. So stay with us. And let's see where this goes. Support for where should we begin comes from Aloha.

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And what are you feeling? I feel honestly grateful the direction that you've taken the conversation feels. I was worried or maybe just feeling anxious that I would have to talk so much about just him, but it's been nice too. I'm glad you recognized. that it's a lot more than that. I don't know, I guess I'm still practicing this. So I'm going to invite the part of you that says, is there some space for me here? The part of you that says,

I feel things, I experience things, I have needs, and it doesn't mean that I'm excluding someone else. That little voice that you've worked, in college, in therapy, that meeting with a part of you that has been kept on very low flicker and that is trying to become a little more of a flame. I'm going to meet her.

Okay. How is she feeling right now? She began by saying, I'm actually happy you invited me. Yes. But there is so much when you say, I'm happy we're talking about me and not about him. That in itself says it.

a ton. But I just met you, so I'm going to let you put words to this. About how else I'm feeling? Yeah, and what it's like to feel that we're talking about you and not just about, you know, it's like, can we talk about you, period. Meaning without having to constantly finish the sentence with him. that doesn't erase him that doesn't put him aside it just says that there is also

he's always connected and he's front center of your awareness every moment maybe too much not because you don't love him and because you don't care for him and all of that but because if he's hungry

you're not automatically hungry and if he's cold you're not automatically cold I think my whole family, we've gotten to the point where we're so anxious about his needs to try to, as you say, keep him in check. His emotions are often very volatile. And so there's definitely a bit of fear in it. It's unpleasant for all of us to watch him go through these outbursts. and, you know, it's painful to watch that, and it's also frightening.

I think sometimes I go back to when I was, almost freeze like I did when I was a kid. It's like I go back to that place. Are you aware of your own frozenness? Like right now? I got you out of it. You caught that. Because the more you talk about how he flares up, and the more your face becomes flat. Like physically, there is no affect.

I didn't know that. But then suddenly when you smile, that little one inside of you that says, me too, takes over, and it's a whole different face. Yeah. Well, I guess how do I get to a point where I'm not on eggshells, where I can... But you're on eggshells when your brother isn't around as well. See, the thing now is how do you distinguish between situations in the moment that are happening and moments when you're gone? So I have two questions, right?

The first one is I want to go back to, how am I not on eggshells? What would happen if we switch that question to? Because the X shells, what they do is they don't let you not think about him because you're afraid that if you have 10 minutes of carefreeness, when you come back, there's going to be drama. Right. So in effect, you're never gone. Yes.

You think that there's going to be drama at your wedding too. I worry about it. Yes, of course. Of course. And it's not like far-fetched. It's not fictitious. But that needs to be, how do you protect the space so that your wedding can really be about your wedding? And that means that you don't constantly are looking over your shoulder. Yes. And not in your own body, let alone in your own event. And how do you ask your parents to actually help you protect that? and that doesn't make you selfish and that doesn't make you a bad sibling beyond just bringing the person to

stay with him yes because you don't know if that's enough yes and you probably think that's actually not enough yes and just so programmed to watch for him that it's it's

you're right I don't really know how to turn it off actually even when I who's not around. He's so internalized. He's so inside that you when the weather changes

we need to know that it's time to take off the sweater. Yeah. You don't know that the weather has changed. So you keep your sweater on at all time. Yeah. It's that.

When you dare, you're there. No doubt. But when you're gone, when you leave, how do you create a situation where you can be with your husband, with your friends, with yourself? And I think it's also a bit of a feedback loop where I don't think that necessarily by not being anxious about changing the weather, as you say, will make him feel better. But I do think we reinforce it sometimes by our being anxious can make him. him anxious and so forth and so forth. So that's our little dance. We're all stressing each other

out. It's all three of you the same, mom, dad, and you? Feeling this way. Yeah, or is there differences between the three of you? There are differences, but we're all, we're all on eggshells, I think. My mom, everyone's watching for changes in his affect. And She looks for kind of external things that she can control. Are you accompanied? Do you get support as a family? No. We have, I mean, there are groups that he goes to that he really likes,

but it's actually been, this is also something that I didn't really even recognize as a kid that was unusual. I just, you know, we were just on our own doing, dealing with this. You don't have a group for parents that you are part of or a group for siblings that you are part of? I don't. My parents have... You must. They have friends. I don't know how much they talk about this, though.

No, no, I'm talking not just about their friends. It's about other parents with children who have children who have severe autism. I think they will meet with, you know, they're in like weekly groups. goes to art classes or cooking classes. And the parents come with. And so all the parents will chat amongst themselves while their kids are doing the activities. And you? No. Have you met other siblings? I've met, you know, even my, my fiance had a brother who was special needs, but not autistic. You know, it's, that's really the one. It seems like sometimes all special needs get lumped together, you know.

And so there's an understanding that comes from that, but they're about as different as night and day. So, no, I don't think I've ever had or really even known that many people my age who have had an autistic brother or sibling. Okay. I wish for you to find a group for siblings. it's remarkably relieving

to have your experienced witnessed by others and recognized by others You know, it's funny you say that I can completely imagine how helpful that would be but I don't think it ever occurred to me

in the first place because it almost would be like acknowledging that there's something that I need support with yeah yeah that in itself will be be you have a need. Yeah. And your experience is different.

You're not the mother. You're not the father. And you're not him. You're the sibling. Yeah. And the sibling that has put themselves, you know, in such a place that they don't take up too much room so that they don't become an encumbrance is a very, very common reaction. And there's something about meeting people who intuitively from very young understood something very deep before they could put words to it sometimes. He's two years older than you?

Yes. Okay. So this is before you even could speak. And it is inside your bones. It's in your nervous system. It's in the tightness of your face. It's in, it's not just small. It's in the way you breathe.

You know, it's like you don't take much space in any ways possible. And it was done originally to help him and even to help your parents. At this point, it's not sure it's that helpful. That's definitely not. So besides the fact that it's not helpful to you. So these are all things you can learn. It's not irreversible in that way. And that doesn't change your alertness to him,

your vigilance, all of that. But the reason being that you have your own marriage now that you enter and you want to be able to be in a relationship that is not a replica of the one you have with your brother or the one that you developed as a way of being in. in the world. Yeah, I think it does extend beyond my relationship with him. If anyone that I'm close to or, you know, we're having some sort of conflict.

I get very uncomfortable with people being upset in any capacity. It's like I feel like it's my fault or my job to fix it. Like there was something that I did that, set off a reaction. It's not rational, but it's, I guess, like, from a young age, you know, even going back to the fish story, the one thing I can control that will make people feel better, at least not make them feel worse,

as my own reaction to any situation. And so just shut it down. Even to talk about any of this feels like a big step. Are we very transgressive? For me, maybe. I'll take it, though. Ah, there's the flicker. I think it's a good thing.

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I'll numb myself and control myself, just stop having a reaction, just whatever, can I disappear even to make you feel better? But there is inside of you that flicker, or we wouldn't be sitting here. Yes. Because in effect, I hear you say, I want to be able to enjoy my wedding.

Yes. let alone everything that follows but i want to be able to enjoy my wedding and not feel that even on that day i made myself tiny to make sure that i don't upset him yes or that my parents don't get all busy with him yes in the middle of the ceremony all this has been here you know like you said it's in my bones but you know for better or worse the wedding has added some urgency where my partner has pointed out multiple times to me and I've been grateful for it because he's kind of helped me check this a little bit you're self-flagellating you don't you don't need to feel guilty for being happy or having joyful moments and is that

helping you I have when he says it would you welcome it you're able to let it enter and Yeah, it's been helpful, actually. I'm glad someone notices it and calls me out on it. It feels like he wants me to be able to be joyful. And so it's not out of an accusation. I think it makes him sad that I can't be there. So I am grateful for it. Yes, he wants you to be bigger, to take up more space,

so he can have more of a relationship. with someone rather than with some shadow of someone. Yeah, it would be nice for him. Nice for me too. Good, good. That's the Flickr talking again. Do you know what I mean by the Flickr, right?

The ability to snap out of the flatness. Yes, and the part of you that says me too. Yeah. I want. I claim, I need, I wish, I desire. That has a sense that the eye has some deserving that cultivates a healthy sense of entitlement. Yes.

You know, you'll be there for your brother. This is not a question of, it's kind of how do I exist next to him. rather than survive so he can exist. Yes. And I really want you to know that this is a question that many, many siblings ask themselves. You're not alone in this and you should know that there is a collective voice about some of these challenges.

And I know that not all disabilities are the same, but the reactions of people that work on X-Shel's and carry the constant anxiety is actually far more similar. Because it doesn't matter where the flare-up comes from. If people organize their entire psychic being around preventing the flare-ups. Yeah. It's a common organization. Right. You know a lot more than you think you do. About...

About... About... About how, when I say you know more, you have the ability to see yourself, to observe yourself, and to know, like when your husband says, this flagellating is a common survival mechanism. But there is a moment in your life where you can begin to look at its effectiveness.

How useful is it at this moment? Yeah. And toward him and toward you. That's something I've been thinking a lot about, actually. Right. So that's what I mean you know a lot, is you've been thinking about a lot of this. And you think the wedding has kind of made this become more to the forefront

and it's more vivid and it's a priority and it involves a few more conversations with your parents too. use the wedding as an opportunity to say, you know, maybe we need to do more than what we are used to doing. And maybe this wedding needs to be organized a little bit more around me and a little bit less around him. No, that would be selfish. How do I begin that conversation?

I've been thinking. Exactly as you said to me, I've been thinking, getting married makes people think, as you probably remember mom and dad. And I've been thinking about how scared I am that the whole thing will be robbed from me. And I notice how scared I am to enjoy myself and to actually enter into the joy itself. and then there's different pieces A because he will never have this B because

so there is the part of what I have that I feel sad that he won't have then there is the part of will there be room for me to actually be able to have something that's organized around me when in the context of our family much if not most

has been organized around him I feel terrible about asking this from you because I know how much you have poured yourself into him. And I'm afraid to ask you for anything because I'm constantly afraid to it. Any need I may have will be a burden on you. And I have a lot more to that I need to tell you.

And I'm going to ask you to just listen because I've been holding a lot of this inside for a long time. And who do you think is going to have the hardest time listening? My mom. Yeah. Why? I don't think she has. much space in it for herself.

That's right, because she has lived like that herself. Yes, that's exactly what I taught. Because she, because everybody has stopped and living, right, or experiencing emotions of their own for many years now. Yeah, everyone's a little bit stunted. Yeah. How did it feel when I was talking? Did your heart rate go up?

Yes. I think it It sounds wonderful And it frightens me The idea of saying all that Say it in your own words We're just you and I Nobody's hearing us

Okay This makes me Really nervous I'm not Exactly comfortable Sharing how I feel With Maybe in general

But especially with you you guys worried that any sort of expression might hurt you, even though, as I say it, it sounds ridiculous, but that's how it feels. But I think with the wedding coming up, I've felt a need to address some of these things in a way that I haven't in the past, because it's really important to me that, all of us can be present on my wedding day. It's not just for me. I want you both to be there too.

Beautiful. And I think it's great that we're having someone stay with, I'd rather throughout the ceremony and the reception. But I guess I wanted to talk to you both about what we do if something happened or how are we, collectively going to be able to acknowledge it and come back fully to the events. It's not just if something happens to him. It's how can we make this wedding about me, about the wedding.

Me and my partner, me, my husband, his family, us, you. How do we make this wedding about the wedding? You know, sometimes it's how do we make the wedding not about Uncle So-and-So who's going to be totally drunk. Yeah. There's a lot of hijackings taking place at weddings. So it's not just what your brother can do. It's what lives inside of you that's going to make you constantly check on him

rather than check on you. That's true. How can we be present together for this wedding? so that I feel that this is my day or our day. Yeah, I mean, I think that circles back to my original question. It's not how do I keep him from making me feel joyful, but it's how do I get out of my own way. Beautiful.

And he's the symbol. Beautiful. You got it. Yeah. And that's what you say to him. Yeah. We have done things about making sure he's okay, but what can we do for us?

and what can I do? I need your help. I'm going to focus on it myself too, but I want to not feel that my entire time I'm absorbed thinking about him rather than thinking about the day at hand. And for that, in preparation, I would like you to, with your husband, with your friends, with yourself,

let that little voice inside of you that would like to say me too i deserve some i'm entitled to i'm allowed i'm worthy of to become a little louder well wedding's probably good practice for all this so let's leave as we listen to her and what does what would she say 10 things she would like to claim. Just in general? In general and wedding. Whatever you want to put it?

Yeah, you can take another deep breath. I guess I don't even know where to start. Like, what's an example? Oh, I'm not going to give it to you. Like, what could I plan? Which is the verb that it resonates with you most? I'm allowed. I deserve.

I'm entitled. I'm worthy of. I would like. I wish for. I need. I want. I would like. Okay.

There's several. I'm gentle of them all. Yes, they're all. It's okay. They're all good, but I think it's, there's something nice about the wanting. Okay.

I would like to be able to enjoy the company of my friends and family. I would like to dance and not feel self-conscious about it. I would like to be able to emote during the ceremony and not be mad at myself. I would like to be able to dance with my brother during the reception. I would like to show off my fiancé and not feel inhibited about it. And this is intense. Yes.

And so needed and so deserve. And you've never said any of this outlawed. No? No, I know. I'd like to be able to cry and not apologize for it like I always do. I would like if my brother does have a moment or an outburst at the wedding to feel in myself that it's okay and to not worry about the judgment of those there. I would like to feel beautiful that day and not feel self-conscious about that either.

I would like to allow myself to be as, feel as joyful as possible and hope that that's what my brother can and everyone else can hang on to. And that that's an invitation for him to come join. I would like to have the strength and courage to be able to. talk about all this in front of my parents and to my parents. And I would like our family story to not be a secret because I don't think there's anything to be ashamed of. He is who he is. And by not being open about it,

I worry that we make him feel more ashamed. And us. And us. It's very cathartic. It's very moving. It's very beautiful. to see you come to life. Thank you.

And to see the tears stream down your face without apology and restraint. Thank you for inviting me here. I think I needed the invitation. To be here. I also think you may help your parents a lot, by the way. Somebody has got to shake this up. Yeah. And I'm not even asking you about how,

the secret is maintained and who knows what and all of that because we can't take everything at once. But if you say my wedding is a galvanizing moment, use it. Yes. Will you let me know? I'll let you know. Thank you so much, Esther. Thank you. Thank you so much, too.

Take care. You too. And congratulations. Thank you. And dance. Yes. And dance without self-consciousness. Yes.

Okay. Thank you so much. Bye, Esther. Bye. This was an Esther calling. A one-time intervention phone call, recorded remotely from two points somewhere in the world. If you have a question you'd like to explore with Astaire,

could be answered in a 40 or 50-minute phone call. Send her a voice message, and Esther might just call you. Send your question to producer at Esther. Pirell.com. Where Should We Begin with Estre Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destri Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julianette. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider.

And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul. Thank you.