Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - We Had Boundaries and He Crossed Them

Episode Date: September 9, 2024

They were in a consensual, non-monogamous relationship and happily growing their family. But he broke the first rule of their relationship, and it resulted in a major crisis—an unplanned pregnancy involving another woman. They are committed to each other, but this unforeseen transformation of their family has many unexpected consequences that involve their entire world—family, friends, colleagues, and neighbors. Will their relationship be able to survive all of these upheavals? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real. This is a story of a couple that loves each other dearly, decided for themselves of a relational arrangement of ethical non-monogamy. Her opening line to me talks about their love for each other and their love of freedom. I like freedom.

And he cannot be in a traditional couple. He needs an open relationship. I felt like, wow, we are building something really unique and authentic to both of us. They've been synchronized about it. They agreed on the set of us. They've been synchronized about it. They agreed on the set of rules and they looked forward to a life of polyamory,

of non-monogamy, of experimentation. But as is often the case, we make rules and we break them. And the unanticipated consequences of that breach is what they are grappling with for the past year. But then this thing happened once my partner didn't protect.

The other person got pregnant. She kept the baby without any dialogue with us. And now we have to, like, say everything to everyone. Not only that we are in an open relationship, that there is a child that is not mine. We would like to create a space to receive him at our home.

But this is not possible if we don't accept that anyone can look at us with this child. So we have to work on this way of acceptation. It's not easy for me. I don't want this child. I tell you honestly, I don't want him in my home.

I don't want him in my life. And one of my fears is to become this stepmother from all the childhood stories. I still don't want to quit this open relationship and don't want to quit Eric, but I'm still wondering which is my way. She thought that by choosing another model of relationship, she was experiencing a sense of agency.

And now it has toppled for her. So it's a relational crisis but it's also an existential crisis for her. And for him it is about what is fatherhood? How does one define it? How shall he define it? The session is in English and in French and we go back and forth. As an exception, the couple chose to call each other by their name. They did not name anybody else. So use these names as an entry door into the universality of certain experiences rather than it is just this particular couple. Let's go. We are in an open relationship and we have decided this from the very first moment we met.

We have a child. We love being parents. We have really an idealistic idea of being parents. We are devoted. That was an exclusivity that we decided, okay, we open our couple, but this is defined as it's about taking the freedom to speak if we have a desire for someone if we want to share our intimacy with other people together or separate it's about listening to the limits of the other it's mostly an open dialogue about how to be in a couple and this has been a very very open mind experience for me from the very beginning the problem is that in this open relationship so we have limits of course we have limits, of course, we have some rules. So far, we consider as a nuclear couple. So we are the priority for our family.

You are the primary relationship. Yeah. No matter who are the other relationships, our relationship is the main, is the priority. And what happened with our situation, I had a friend, let's call her L maybe. It appears that in this friendship with L, there was also a desire.

But it was clear that this desire should never lead to sexual intercourse but what helped very much is that she had a girlfriend too and i didn't realize before but this girlfriend was a kind of a protection of not going too far and then she stopped the relationship with that girlfriend. And it appears that immediately, when she was not anymore with her, it gets sexual very fast. For example, I started to have a very close intimacy,

not, sorry, I give very precise details, but it was not penetration or something like that, but it was very, very close intimacy. We were naked and it happened too fast because normally in this situation we should have speak together, Paola with me, before it happened. And we didn't. So there was a kind of transgression already there but Paola and I

dealt with this and we spoke very much together and then we decided to go forward and then I saw her again and then it happened that at one moment

I didn't protect myself with condoms and this is another infidelity if I think we can say because we agreed with Paula that I should protect and when this time came I had the condom in my hands and the stupidity from me was to say, re-protect instead of re-protect. You know, it's just a question mark, the difference. So you made it into a question mark. Yeah. With a possibility for an open-ended answer rather than a clear mandate yeah but i know because i thought very much about this moment and it could seem stupid like if i was 15 years old but i think

it was something like this is something magic and i'm afraid to break something, to break the moment, to break the magic instant. And I'm very angry about that because, well, when I think about that, I want to go back. But I know it's not possible. But, you know, I feel angry about this acting like a child. Angry at yourself? I'm angry at myself. Yeah. I'm angry at myself. And the other stupidity for me was that I was really trustful because I did practice for a long time.

How do you say? Retreat? Withdrawal. Withdrawal. I did practice this for a very long time. And I was so sure about me about that. And you know that scientifically you can't be sure, but I thought, yeah, I didn't thought actually about that. You know, I didn't even thought about the idea to have a baby.

And this flight of fantasy, this grandiosity that the rules don't apply, that science doesn't apply, that your fantasy is stronger than reality and than the facts. This was an exception for you? You usually live between the rules, even the self-imposed rules, or you tend to make rules and then one day you break them it's an interesting question thank you

i think i really trusted in my experience my my own experience. I hear you. Because for years, it happened to me that I used this solution. And it always did work. And then what happened? You get a call one day that says there is a child on the way and it's yours. But actually, the story is quite more complicated than that because there was another one. Another man.

Yeah, another man. And Elle told me, that's cool. I have a child and it's his child. That's wonderful. Yeah, I mean, it just right after this happened, the next week she started an exclusive relationship and we knew that guy and we were very happy for them

so she was pregnant like two months and she did a neckography and she had a term of conception that was close to the weekend where they had sex with Eric.

So there was a doubt and we started to live with the doubt. And that moment, the other guy left. So at the end, we did a prenatal test, paternity test. We did it in Belgium. A DNA test. We did it in Belgium. A DNA test. So we knew for three months after the announcement that it's Eric's child.

She was still in the limits of doing an abortion, but it was never, ever a conversation. She said, OK, I'm doing this child and I will have it on my own. The nightmare started at that point. In order for me to understand what she means by nightmare,

I need to do a quick recap in my head. They have an open relationship from day one. They are the primary couple. Two of their rules are about having conversations with each other when they meet someone and to use protection. Both of those essential rules were broken. He has a wild weekend where he has sex three times with this other woman. She also has another boyfriend with whom she spends the next few months.

And when she announces that she's pregnant, at first everyone is quite relieved because everything seems to be in their right place. The child was conceived with this new boyfriend and this couple almost took a massive risk but avoided it in the end and they can continue their life on the trajectory they're on. But then the doubt sits in and then people start to wonder what's the provenance of this child. One of the most archaic questions that we have asked throughout humanity and that has been at the root of how we think about monogamy and infidelity and non-monogamy. In order to clear these doubts, a DNA test is made and it is established that in fact it is the child of this man who is sitting right with me for this session. And at that moment, the whole future of this couple is momentarily in question. not in terms of will they be a couple.

What they do at night, what they do sexually with others is maybe no one's business. But to arrive suddenly on the street, at work, at a birthday party with another child, that demands explanation. So it's about breach of trust. It's about betrayal. It's about secrecy. It's about sexuality. It's about children in the midst of all of this. It's about parents who have no idea what your relationship is actually about. And that's what we're going to unpack. So I heard you say it's her child. Is it her child? Yeah.

Is it our child? She said, this is what she said before giving birth. She said, I don't need anything from you. If you want to give me something, you give me. Otherwise, don't give me anything. It's my child. I will have it alone. Eric felt the moral obligation to recognize the child, to pay a pension, to think about how to integrate it in our lives,

in his life, so in our life. And this is what we are working on for more than one year. And after giving birth, she started to be invasive. She wanted more time, regularity. Like she gave birth and like one week after, she wanted to give us the child time. But she didn't agree with our terms. We said, okay, let's go together in this story,

but it's not going to be Eric. It's going to be us and us with our child. So it's going to be our family that will accompany this baby. And she didn't want it. She wanted just Eric and that's all. But we said that, okay, in order to bring this child in our home with this regularity we need to take it step by step she didn't agree she said okay it's difficult for me this way and we should do a break until the child grows bigger and then let's talk again so now we didn't see the child since December.

So we have you, the couple, you have a child that is how old? Three and a half. Okay, you have a three and a half year old boy who has met the baby but doesn't know yet who the baby is. And then who else is in the drama that knows or doesn't know?

And then there is a little baby who does not yet know cognitively, but senses a ton. Well, where we are now is that we decided that the next time when this baby will come to our house, it will be with no secrets, like truly welcoming, which it was not the case before when he was born. I think this is something that we are a bit stuck in this stage because it's very hard to open especially from my side

I still have things to work on and especially okay especially my family that's one of the main issues for me but I get even emotional to think about it who is in the family and what is the concern? So I live in an Eastern European country. I was born just after communism. I think I was lucky to have a family

that is quite open. I always had freedom. But of course, they have their limitations. They don't know that we are in an open relationship. How religious are your parents? They are Orthodox, Christian Orthodox. When I ask about their religion, the depth of their religious feelings it's less about you having transgressed or you having betrayed or you having been unfaithful but it is about what is considered a child out of wedlock

or an adulterous child that's the language that is used it's definitely yeah I get the feeling that they will worry about me that Eric is hurting me I couldn't say to them last year because I was too hurt and I would definitely like cry and it's strange now because they are parents and you should be able to be vulnerable in front of them but since I left and I lived in different countries I had very difficult time to be vulnerable in front of my parents because why when you lived with them you could or you've always opted for only show them that I'm sure of what I do that I'm confident that I've got it all figured out they don't know the other side of me um i think at some point i didn't because i didn't necessarily felt listened and not heard and i think i started to a bit close myself

emotionally all the worries stopped when i had a child So now their attention is focused on the child. I suddenly became perfect. And of course, I suddenly became perfect because I was so suddenly checked their life principle, married with a child, with a stable job. I think also the difficulty to speak with them is that we never spoke about sex about protection this was very taboo i don't know why well you're supposed to have premarital sex you know if you're going to have sex with the person that you marry then there is not so much of a need to talk about i mean that that is not my framework, but that is a consensual framework. Okay? Because there is no sex to be had until there is sex you must have.

Yeah, so suddenly I have to talk to my parents about sex. But first I waited to not cry when I speak with them which is I'm not sure if you will you cried with me and you will cry with them because it's part of a larger story and the larger story is that for a long time you have not done what they expected but you try to do it on your own terms and you basically chose the option of I only show you everything that works so that I can prove to you that my choices are valid and I can avoid your criticism or your fears or your care and your worry and now I'm basically coming to say here is a choice i made that you don't even know about and here are the consequences that not only do you not want them

i didn't want them either and i still love this man deeply and we are committed to each other and we have all intentions of continuing to be a couple, a family, and an open relationship. So, you're going to need to select what of that they need to know. And, more importantly, you're going to have to find a way to be able to tell them, I want to be able to present myself to you with my choices and with my frustrations or mistakes or worries. That's the conversation. And if they are as loving as you say they are, then they will understand that. They'll take their time.

It may not be in the first conversation, but they'll understand it. And maybe they'll even say thank you because you will appear to them more responsible than cocky. And that's the difference rather than the narrative that you've had for the past 10 years, which is always, everything's always great. Yeah. always everything's always great yeah and accepting this child is another point I mean like some of people I want to explain and I feel that we have to go to this narrative and like you have to explain something before being accepted this is what I feel now I don't have it yet. I don't fully accept. I'm not fully happy when the child is in our home.

I think I project a lot of things on this child. And you don't want to become the mean stepmother. Exactly. But you find yourself with mean thoughts. Yeah. Okay. She owns every part of the story where she plays a part. And her level of insight into the complexities of this story and the relationships between the people

is very moving. And I'm moved by the precision with which they understand their feelings. And as I listen to the session now, I wish I had actually told her that. But they're also at all times saying, this is what I'm experiencing now. This may change. And they are continuously talking about relationships as a breathing, living organism.

We have to take a brief break. Stay with us. In this session, we are listening to a particular sexual gridlock that this couple is grappling with. But there are many others. So I've created a new course bundle on desire, where we explore together many of the other sexual impasses and blocks that we struggle with, from completely stuck and sexless to simply flat, yearning for more intensity and a more erotically charged connection. We are releasing the courses September 17, but you can join the waitlist right now. Follow the link in the show notes to join the waiting list. It will give you access to the best pricing, a chance to submit your questions about desire and

eroticism, the opportunity to attend a live virtual workshop that I will be leading and be able to have a Q&A live with me when you purchase the courses, and the opportunity to join a special seven-day foreplay challenge. I look forward to reading your questions, exploring them with you, and helping you to answer them. What's your experience of this? I hear from Paula something like, I discovered a different way of living. I was on an adventure. And this adventure has capsized. But I still want to be on this adventure. But now I need to explain to people.

And I need to have answers that I don't have. And I need to reassure people in ways that I can't reassure them because I can barely reassure people in ways that I can't reassure them because I can barely reassure myself. And this whole thing that was an agreement between you and I now becomes a confrontation with society. Am I hearing that accurately, Paola? Yes. Okay. So to me, when you were speaking, Paola, I wrote this question.

What is the story do we need to say to people? What is the story that we need to tell? Yeah. I feel that I have elements that make me strong enough to face the thinking of people around us. Say more. I'm not afraid about what they will think. And it appears very clear to me that at last,

okay, the priority to me, the place where I have to be, is taking care of Paola. And this helped me very much. It was very difficult to bring Elle and Paola at the same table. It was difficult for Paola, but she always said, but let's go, we have to.

For Elle, many times she said, yeah, but stop. I don't want that and I won't come to the table with Paola and you. I can come to speak with you alone, but please not Paola. Because? My idea is that she felt that Paola looked at her on a negative way. And I think she was not ready to face that. Of course, Paola is angry about her.

On a certain point, I can understand that. But we really needed to be the three of us in this situation. And for me, it was impossible not to come with Paola. I hated to be the translator between Elle and Paola. I always was afraid of betraying something, of not telling it in the good words and not making it really understood as it should. And for me, this situation was very, very putting me into distress. And I don't believe in God, but I went to the cathedral and I burned some candles, praying that that I don't know how but to find a way

that there is love but you know the large meaning of the word between Paola and El just I need them to find a way to connect together why?

because we are three of us in this story and so I thought we need to be able to communicate the three of us in this story. And so I thought we need to be able to communicate, the three of us, to be able to construct something that is peaceful and that allows us to take care together of those children.

I hear you. If these two women do not find a way to connect, I will lose all. My son won't have a dad. find a way to connect. I will lose all. My son won't have a dad. I don't know if there was ever a plan for the two of you to have other children, more children. Not for now.

Okay. But before? But before, yes. So I can also imagine that whenever Paula sits in front of El, she thinks, you changed the plan of my life. I had another child in mind, but not like that. And there are loads of issues of acceptance. There is wanting other people to accept you,

but there is also how you accept this boy, how much you see yourself as parental figures to this boy, how much the boy becomes a part of the family because you don't want him to continuously wonder what is my origin and to feel that it's a tainted origin and you want your older son to be able to be clear that he has a brother and that this brother has three parents or maybe they'll have four parents at some times. I don't know if I am allowed to say that he has two mothers. Because I don't know how Paola considers this second son.

Is that a question? Yeah. Yeah, I definitely don't feel a mother for that child. I first have to get rid of all the things that he came with. I mean, when I see him, I feel empathic. But I definitely don't feel a mother for this child because I have no connection with this story. I mean, if you say this is your brother to a boy, to me, it's not true. I mean, I don't feel it's part of our family yet.

Maybe one day I won't care, but let's be clear. So at this moment, I understand that you have slowed down and that you're taking some time to sit with this. And that means you don't have to go talk to anybody for that matter. Or you need to say the bare minimum just so that you can do the things you need to do. But also, I do think the piece about having another child comes into the story because a lot of things will be projected onto this child if he gets to redefine the trajectory of this family. Definitely.

And that will make it harder to accept him. Yeah. Can I say something? Yeah. To be really honest, I don't really love this second son. Actually, I don't even know him. Okay? And I don't have this kind of real father relationship with him the relationship I have with him is a Conducted by responsibility. I feel responsible

about this child. I am connected to him, but I can't say for now that I love him That would be great if one day we can love him together, Paola and I. History is filled with stories of fathers who did not assume the responsibility for the children that they brought into this world. At this moment, he hasn't had many opportunities to bond with his own child, with this second son. And therefore, he acts from a place of duty

and paternal obligation, more than from a simple open-hearted place. We today may find that there's something cold about the lack of feelings. Whereas throughout history, we haven't necessarily asked fathers to show feelings. We have asked fathers to show responsibility. But what's interesting is that even though there is a lack of feeling here, he's holding on to the archaic role of responsibility and duty that one has as a father. And from that place, he hopes that he will find a way to connect with this child. It is completely something he longs for and hopes and knows because that is what he has felt for his other child, is the combination of those two sources of connection,

love and responsibility. Do you feel allowed to love him, even if Paula... I wouldn't say doesn't love him even if paula i wouldn't say doesn't love him i would say you say parenthood can be driven by responsibility with or without love i feel parental duty i don't feel parental love yes and that's not very popular in the west these days but you're being not popular and that's not very popular in the West these days, but you're being not popular and that's not been your priority to begin with. And my question to you is, do you feel that you could love this child even if Paola continues to relate to him out of duty?

I think both of you have that distinction. It's actually a place where you meet. You both feel he should be loved, but you don't yet love him because he has been such a terrible disruptor. But it's not him. It happens to be the decision of his mother. And you can't hold this child responsible for a decision he didn't make and that's something that you also both agree on but the difference is i think i don't love him not because of the history but just because i don't have the opportunity to love him. Okay. There was one moment when I did love him for a few seconds. I found suddenly human.

When the first time I hold it in my arms, we looked each other into our eyes. And at this very moment, I thought, oh, yes, I think he could be my son. I think there is something here. Because you looked into each other's soul. But it was only a few seconds. I just think it is a person and I will build a relationship with this person. And this never started for real. But in order to build a relationship, you need the building materials.

Yes. The ingredients that you have for your newborn son are not allowing you to build much because it's in the midst of doubt and anger and recrimination and guilt and pain. And so those are not such good building materials. I mean, they will build something, but it will be a wobbly tower. And so the first thing that needs to happen is to clear some of the debris, if possible. And that takes a lot of caring conversations

and a lot of acceptance of un-noble feelings. Because the thought that you could be rejecting of a child is inconceivable to either of you. You are loving parents. How can you be with this kid and not love him, not want him there? And that's when I hear Paula say, I understood for the first time what the wicked stepmother may be experiencing. She's not just wicked,

she's deeply hurt. She's been asked to do something that nobody's asking her, how hard is this? She's just expected to deliver. And she sits there with these negative emotions towards this innocent creature. And I don't want to be that person, but I don't know how to clear myself of those feelings and those thoughts. And then I understand the mother of the child who says if you look down on me then I don't want to be in your presence because you destroy me with your looks

and therefore I'm going to go and I'm going to retreat and I'm going to isolate. I mean, I'm just going to put it out as a question because far from me to think here, do this and do that. But the decision that you would not be talking with Elle without Paula, I am not sure if that is in the long term the only avenue. Okay, but if I do that, I really, really need to be sure that is accepted fully by Paola because I can't hurt Paola anymore with that. I get it. I can't. Have you deeply apologized to her? avec ça, ok? Je ne peux pas... Tu as-tu

profondément apprécié elle? Je pense que oui. Oui, je l'ai fait. Mais tu as juste ressenti la nécessité de le faire encore. Je veux dire...

Parle-lui. Parle-lui. Dis-le-lui en français. Tu dois le dire dans ton propre langage. en fait ça me fait mal de me dire que je t'ai fait autant souffrir je trouve que je t'ai imposé une situation qui est déjà je veux dire j'ai jamais pu construire

à ce point là avec quelqu'un et je t'ai fait super mal j'ai besoin de te dire Paola je te respecte Paola je veux faire attention maintenant à toi j'ai besoin, c'est pas pour toi que je le fais en fait, tu comprends? c'est pas pour,, je veux faire attention maintenant à toi, j'ai besoin. C'est pas pour toi que je le fais, en fait. Tu comprends? C'est pas pour... Ça, je veux pas que tu culpabilises parce que je le fais pas pour toi,

je le fais pour moi. Moi, j'ai besoin de me dire, de sentir que je te respecte, en fait. Parce que je t'aime. I feel more than sorry that I hurted you because I feel more than sorry that I hurt you because I feel hurt about that. I feel hurt myself

by the idea that I hurt you because I really fucking love so much our relationship. Our relationship is to me a real treasure. I never, never was so far in a relationship in the ability to build build through the storms and for this i am so grateful to you and that's why i'm so sorry and so hurted that can't hurt you and so afraid to hurt you again

I am a little bit afraid that while hearing you I feel a lot of pressure I don't know why I'm afraid that what you are saying to me is that you're afraid to be vulnerable again in front of me because you're afraid to hurt me. I won't stop. But I hope I can control myself to build the decision with you. To build. Yeah, this is something that i would like yeah

for example about polyamorous thing before i thought okay we see what happened in a relationship oh i kissed someone okay and then we speak about that and i really feel that now i need to be strong about that and i feel strong and that's a good thing i can feel we could be about to kiss and i hope i can not kiss and first say okay we are going to speak together i think that what just happened is something different you made a beautiful declaration of love i can't bear to see how much I hurt you. I royally fucked up. And I cannot take any decision that would hurt you more.

And I was curious how you would receive this. If you would receive it as a gift, and there's nothing for you to do, just to hear it, because he probably feels bad often. But you heard this as if he was not giving you something, but as if he was demanding, as if he was putting pressure on you and in my psychological head i thought so interesting because you said that you have learned with your parents never to show yourself vulnerable. But my question to you is,

and then what happens when someone actually sees it? Can you receive it? Can I receive what? The other's look, the other's regard? His regard, his reflection. Sometimes when we learn not to show our vulnerability to the people that are close to us, it becomes hard for us when other people see it

to receive it without pressure. You don't have to reassure him. You can just say, thank you. It means a lot. I needed to hear that. And I may have to hear it many more times. The problem with this is that I've heard many times, I would never do that.

I mean, I trust Eric, but like he said at the beginning i would never sleep with that woman he often says this like he's very sure about something and that there is the surprise yes yes yes i see that yeah so he's building something yes he takes time to build it and then he destroys his ladies and this is the summit it was a real explosion when we had the news that this is eric's baby i felt like my life is melting i felt really like my body will enter into the earth i have a lot of anxieties nowadays about there is something and in a second I lose everything. So now when Eric is speaking to me like this, I think I know this system.

Maybe you have to prove it to me. Like, okay, these are words and words I know they can be just destroyed, melted. And I feel we build it a little bit so my trust for Eric is rebuilding so I don't know I take the words so powerful as they are I think they have a charge yep I hear you. Her answer was really powerful because while I was emphasizing his ability to envelop her with the breath of his emotions,

she highlighted a piece that I had not yet seen, which is that he starts from that place of engaging her with his feelings and then gives her a sense that she can rely on it, that the frame is solid. And then he actually overthrows it, which brought me back to the question that I asked him in the beginning when he transgressed and infringed on all the rules

that he had himself created, if this was unusual for him or if this was actually something that he had been known to do. And she answered it for him. We have to take a brief break. Stay with us. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Greenlight. It's September, which means pumpkin spice lattes, if that's your thing, nice sleek jackets, and school buses lining up to take your kids to school. But with all the changes that September brings, giving children the best opportunity to succeed stays the same.

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I hear you and I connected to something you said before. I arrived, I had very little knowledge about any of this and I allowed him to take me by the hand and enter with me into a whole world. And I was fascinated. And we decided to create what we thought was a more elevated relationship. And my co-creator stepped out of the creative process. And I learned something very important about him. He has a capacity to convince himself and others that is very persuasive in the moment, that disconnects him from reality.

Now, on occasion, that's an amazing thing to do. That is part of the creative process, is to disconnect from reality so you can enter rich, imaginative, generative worlds. But in this case, it came with a big price. So if you want to apologize to me you can apologize to me but if you become convincing i become suspicious yes it's just that in which part i would like to be convincing of something because i don't feel i try to convince Paola about something because really for me I just described what I feel.

Maybe it's about when you feel too sure about yourself or you know when you say I would never do that it's like you feel very sure. I corrected and I said I hope I will never do that. Eric, you corrected yourself today, but she's been with you for a few years. So what you do in the moment is not the only thing she registers. Our internal memory, our nervous system, we remember and we interpret a behavior in the moment on the basis of what has

proceeded yeah but i'm not feeling in a way that i try to convince i think i try to i really try honestly to describe how i feel i get it maybe i'm wrong maybe i'm wrong i think let's change the word you're not trying to pull her over and to convince her but you're making statements that resonate with assurance even though it's it's a desire it's a wish but it's emphatic and it's absolute and that is what got broken for her paula do you want to say this in your own words for me there is a level of taking things for granted maybe sometimes you're too sure about yourself to see me for real, for how I feel for real. Maybe the last year I missed a few times saying a real question of how do you and less about you saying your thoughts. And maybe I need more space.

Yeah, I think I have the point. You need me to open voluntarily the space for you to express yourself. Is it that? Did I understood? Yes, yes, maybe. Maybe you need me more to mark, okay, no, it's not about what I'm about to say, but please tell me you i you need me to say that and not to wait that you take the initiative to express yourself about something or maybe i don't even let you space sorry that can be a good opening and see where it takes us. One of the dilemmas is that, if I understood well,

there was a desire at some point to begin to think about having a second child. And this boy, in your mind, has kind of eclipsed that other project. And so it's like, which child cancels out which? It's a terrible way of thinking, but if you start to think about another child now, it softens the reality of this boy that entered your life, but that wasn't part of the script. But on the other end, if you integrate this boy

and you put all your attention on him, then it also redirects the whole trajectory of your relationship. It's an impossible triangle. Which child will win, so to speak? I didn't give up the idea of having a second biological child. I'm fantasizing about it and it's really a real desire for me uh yeah i i really want this child and i'm not really like biological child or not i even thought about adoption at some point but the adoption is a common project you know it's a project that

two people decide or one or i don't know the The fact and maybe the other point was about this, that the whole last year I had no word to say. I had only like, do you want to keep and save this marriage, to fight for this? But I have no words to say in keeping the baby, in recognizing the baby, in the pension, in the time, like nothing. Things were imposed to me it's not my project there is a dialogue with eric of course but it's like a fake

you don't really make decisions you can express your feelings but you don't have power exactly that's what you're saying yeah yeah are you surprised yeah i'm watching his face too Yeah, yeah. Are you surprised? Yeah, I'm watching his face too. So here's the thing. Don't say yay or nay. Just take it in.

You wanted to know how she feels? She just told you. Don't argue with it. Or try to convince her that that's not it. She tells you, that's exactly this. This is the dynamic. This is about power and influence, not just about feelings or expressing oneself. This is about decision-making.

But there is another thing that I'm a little bit sad to say this now because I think it's not very positive. I'm afraid that I will leave this discussion with a fear because of the idea of a second child, because there is no connection for me with the son that I have and that I didn't want to have before this I really was sure that I want to have a song that we have and I really don't feel ready to have another one I'm very sorry to express

because I see that there is a deep desire for you, which is to have another child. But I can't give you this child because I love you. If we make this child together, it's because I also feel ready to have this child. And it's not that I should convince you not to do this child. I don't want that. So I wonder where we are going. I have a fear that to one point, you will need to,

I don't know if you need to leave me, but there is a need to do something so that you have this second child because you need it. It's possible that I'm not the father of this child. There is a question mark here. I'm afraid that I can't give you what you really need. I'm afraid about that. I hear and I understand.

It opens a whole new conversation. I agree that you should not make a child only because you love me. I have no solution, but I hear and I agree with what you say. And it's a conversation that you will have. Yeah. Even if we don't have it together, you will continue this. This is not about ending something with a nice bow. Sometimes you end in the middle

because it's dot, dot, dot. In the middle of a thought. And here we are. This is a complicated situation and there's no easy answers and pity solutions. You're trying to live a very conscious, examined life, and this will be part of the examination.

Thank you. Throughout the session, where they express their ambivalence about this other child. A feeling kept growing inside of me that her attachment with this boy will ultimately be determined if she has another child of her own. And the loss is less about this other boy as about the fact that he now no longer wants to have another child with her, a child she chooses to have, another child she chooses to accept.

So he says in all honesty, and honesty hurts in this moment, I don't want it. I'm going to rob you of one of your biggest dreams. I can't impose on you not to fulfill it. So I'm inviting you, in effect, to go and create a similar situation to me, to have a child with someone else, which is what the other woman woman chose to do it's an awkward place to end the session but as I often say at the end of a session when I do ongoing work to be continued it's very important for me to hear what of this session stayed with the couple.

And I received two rather detailed voice notes. And if you're interested in actually going further into this relationship, I reflect on these notes and I play them for you on my office hours this week on Apple Subscriptions. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destry Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julian Hatt.

Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.