Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - What Would It Take For You to Come Out?

Episode Date: July 9, 2020

Four years in, she can't admit she's attracted to her girlfriend, and her family still doesn't know. Programming note: This conversation was recorded before the COVID-19 lockdown. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real. We can't publicly say we're a couple. We haven't intertwined, integrated our lives. 98% of the people in her life know of me as her friend. For three and a half years, the two women have had a secret relationship.

One is out, one is not. I feel like we come from two different worlds. She lived with people and marriage even. I've never lived with anyone. One has constantly wanted more, more openness, more living together, more of a sense of future. And the other has been more withholding and more protective. It is not really clear of what. I think it's twofold. I think one, she just has a problem with commitment. And I also think it's because I'm a woman.

I have a child, and I have chosen to raise my child without any competing agendas. So that meant a relationship. They're stuck, and they've asked my help to get out of the rut, and also to see and to know if this relationship is worth fighting for. I feel the love, but we can't still build in the way I'm used to. We just can't stay here. So what's to come for us?

If the relationship was public, if you were a couple in the world, if the people that are close to you knew that you are together... Her people know. I'm talking about if your people knew that you are together, then you're not moving in would mean something very different. Correct? Yeah. Some of the struggles I'm dealing with is not only because I'm a woman, but they have been emphasized and prolonged and greater because I'm a woman. She's always, to me, had like a weekend boyfriend or if he does something wrong, she breaks up with him for no reason.

She's never gone deep. And now she has gone deep with me. And I think it's just, she's afraid of it because her first priority is always just to keep herself safe. She'd rather be safe than happy. And your first priority? Is to be happy, even if that means

I'm gonna be hurt at some point. If I'm with you, I'm with you. That's a commitment to me. I don't sway. Well, not like that. I'm talking about committing in that person, getting to know them on a deeper level, growing with them, like deeply committed to them when you open your heart. I feel like that's your definition. And you try to put me in the box of your definition of what moving forward looks like or what commitment looks like or how it's supposed to look, you know, whether it's moving in

or commit. Because I do feel like you have been able to pull back some layers. Those other individuals were not able to. And you did. You have. That's my point. That's what I'm saying. But it wasn't because I didn't want to or I was scared to be committed.

They did not require that of me. Well, all I'm saying is it seems like it was really superficial like your relationship for her. Why were they superficial? Because they weren't deep. You didn't go deep. But that's because that maybe that wasn't the person that I was supposed to go deep with because I was choosing to raise my son and I didn't want those competing pulls. If I wait a little longer, I will probably get the synopsis of the conversation that runs between the two of you like a loop. Right?

She's never gone deep. Implication, implication. She can't commit. And you pretty much see why you're locked. Some of it has to do with gender, some of it has to do with intimacy, some of which has to do with history, and they all intersect with each other. But the bigger piece is how you have set ideas about each other and you don't move from them. You've decided that she has never been close to anybody before and you've decided that the kind of closeness

that she wants with you is going to suffocate you. That's on the head for me. That's where it suffocates because I've said that before. Yeah. And you are really right when you say some of these things have nothing to do with the fact that I'm a woman. But it does have to do with who you are.

Every time you want to be closer, a part of her wants to come close and another part of her wants to hold back. And you say that that's because she has never really known closeness. But from where she moves, as I'm watching her body here, she wants to hold back because the kind of closeness that you want to invite her in is more than she's comfortable with or wants, regardless of what she's had or not had. It's not a response to her history as much as it's a response to you. You tap into her biggest fear. What is she telling you all the time? I wanted to make sure that I am available for my kid. And so when you ask for the kind of closeness that you want, which is totally legit,

it's almost like you are pressing the panic button without knowing that you do and without meaning to, but you press the panic button. And you also press her panic button. Because every time you then say, this is more than I want, you make her feel like you're never going to come, which is not necessarily true either,

because obviously you've been there. So you kind of hold back with the words what the body and the actions translate differently. And then when she experiences you as really not coming, then she will do what she has done at other times, which is she'll find somebody else since she's always been in relationships. And then you can say, well, that pushes my button to go back behind my wall. See, there was a good reason for me not to open up more. Yeah. I mean, I tell her all the time, I'm like, listen, I'm with her because I like her independence.

So three and a half years ago, that was a reasonable story. I need to be there for my child. He's still in high school. We have these last years. He's going to be going to college. And I step back. What's your story now? He has his own life. Now you have to find the next chapter of your life. When you become an empty nester, instead of transitioning with me, the person that you've been with all this time, you decide that you're going to move back in with your mom. That's not, in my mind, that's not a normal transition. And so after three and a half years, she makes me feel like I'm crazy for wanting to know what any normal person want to know. What are we doing? Where are we going with

this? Because right now it feels like you're still trying to figure out whether you want to pursue being with a man. But I also tell her, if you want to be with a man, why are you with me? Because you're wasting precious years on finding whoever you think you're going to be with. As I've just listened to you, this is panic button talk. I'm not saying this is real, but this is the language. You're moving away from me rather than toward me. No sentence is neutral. Everything is heightened with a lot of assumptions, right, that are thrown into,

so every sentence is loaded. So what happens then? So, yes, my child did go off to college, and that was very, very devastating for me. We're super close, and I really, really struggled with that more than I thought I was going to. And I didn't like to use the word grieving or loss, but that's what I felt like. I'll get you together. And then...

What was that? I'm trying to not cry when I talk about... You know, in this room, if something is funny, we laugh. And if something is funny, we laugh. And if something is sad, we cry. So my plan has always been when my child leaves, I'm leaving my state too because I don't want to be there anymore. Moving back with my mom was to save money so that I can leave. So as I listened to her, I listened for the words, I listened for the tone and the affect, and I watch the body. And I see the transition very, very quickly between her attempts at being very composed,

and then as she speaks about her son leaving home and the grief that she felt, she's overcome with emotion, which she then tries to slap down with this kind of nervous laughter, just to say, I wasn't going to, I didn't want to cry. And you see the disconnect, and you see the intense attempt from her to kind of maintain, in a way, she's the gate and her partner is the flood. But when you talk with her about leaving, it's very hard for her. Because it's not just leaving the state, it's leaving her. Or would you leave together?

Well, when I've asked her that, that is also rejected. She won't commit to that either. She won't commit to anything but I'm with you today. When I first met her her the way I kind of she'll probably call it manipulation but the way I told her not to like worry about if you're with a woman or not it's a different experience just live in the moment just live in the moment just live in the moment by your word and she took me by my word and now she only can focus on today today I'm with you and so it's just backfired. But it's an interesting paradox,

right? You come with a vision for the future. You come with skills that allow her to disentangle. And that's what she needs. And she brings you also a way of experiencing a form of separateness. And on some level, that's what you need. What drew you to each other is quite clear. So many of their interactions involve one woman wanting more and one woman wanting less. One being the pursuer, one being more of the distancer or the person who withholds. And of course, as is often the case, each one is actually exacerbating the behavior of the other. Every time one speaks about needing more distance, it frightens the

other who then comes back with wanting more. And every time she comes wanting more, she ends up being more suffocating in the way that they're using that word, which makes the other one take a step back. And this is the loop where one person triggers the vulnerability of the other, and each one actually intensifies in the other the very behavior that they don't want. Pursuer, distancer. A classic couples dance. Let me ask you something, just to step back a second. Give me a bit of a context of your life.

Family background, social background, like what's the context? So close-knit family as far as mom, dad, and brothers. Lost my dad in 2012. That was very devastating. Church, church, church. Well, for sure you don't come home with the same sex. What do you think your dad would say if he saw the two of you? If you like it or love it. He's open to just happiness. Just be happy.

And do you hear him often? Mm-hmm. I do. And do you hear him often? Mm-hmm. I do. And what does mom say? Don't confuse loneliness with feelings or vulnerability. And this is because she tried to tell her mom, and her mom just was in denial about it. Yeah, like, oh, you're just, you know, lonely

because you haven't had a boyfriend in a long time, or you're just vulnerable right now, and so that attention feels good, that type of stuff. And who else in the family has an important opinion? Child. What does child say? Child doesn't know. I think her child does know, but out of respect.

Just like, well, if you're not saying anything, in my mind, there's no way people can't know. That's not my world. So why would they think otherwise? It's not, like, when we use certain words, like, she questions me. Like, when I say my girlfriend, she's like, what do you mean your girlfriend? I'm like, my girlfriend. Like, as a straight woman, that's what she is.

She's my girlfriend, you know. But it means something else. And, you know, so it's like, that's not my world.'s my girlfriend you know but it means something else and you know so it's like that's not my world so why would they think that and then my response is well when's the last time you had a girlfriend that you're spending a night with that you're you're you're acting like no I'm acting like I spend the night with you have a big house and so i'm staying in one of the interesting thing is that both of you are completely plausible in the world of out this seems completely weird in the world of not out the power of denial is also immense.

You would think that this is obvious, but it's not. And both of these things coexist. But I also think, and you tell me if this makes sense to you, because far from me to impose, you know, a whole other reality. But the division that you create between I'm a straight woman and I'm a gay woman, I'm not sure in your situation Because you polarize. You can be a woman. Period. A woman. And as a woman, you have a fluidity to your attractions. And it often accompanies the desire, the attraction,

or the willingness to engage sexually, even if it is not your primary frame of reference, because of the connection that you have with her. The intimacy, the emotional closeness is what leads to the sexual engagement with that person. If one asks you what are you originally attracted to, you probably would say men. But if one asks you in this instance, you say, because of the feelings I have for this girlfriend, my girlfriend, I actually find myself in an intimate sexual relationship with her. What? Because I told her that from the beginning, that I'm attracted to you as a person,

and she just could not comprehend that. But it actually is. It is completely a model. It's different from you because for you, there is a complete unity between person and gender. But that's where you differ. And that's, in my mind, okay. But at the same time, that doesn't mean that it makes you more at ease with what you think your community and your people, supposedly, will think because that's not how they will think. In a way, they'll think much more the way that you do.

There's straight people, there's gay people. Right. We've talked about that. And she actually finally, because she won't,'t I'd like okay, you're not a lesbian You're you're not bisexual. So she actually in the last six months. Maybe I use a term fluidity. It's just like okay Maybe that's it even though I'll never ever ever so we landed in the same spot Yeah, so she said fine. I know that I accept that But she

Still struggles with saying that she enjoys having sex with me like no i don't i'm not attracted to you i don't enjoy having sex with you and i'm like well you you're faking really good then like she like she won't give me that difficult for you to say because you put her constantly in a position of having to squeeze things out of you, and she hates it. And I don't blame her. But from the place of fluidity, why is it difficult to say, and I enjoy myself with you. I like it. To my great surprise, actually.

I recently said, I do enjoy it. I do. Come to think of it. Who knew? You knew. That's very convincing. Yeah. I think because she puts them in the same

sentence where she says are you attracted to me? And I don't feel physically attracted to her like body wise. I don't feel physically attracted to her, like body-wise. I don't feel like if you're walking past a room butt naked, I'm not like, woo, that doesn't do anything for me. When we're being intimate, I'm feeling that connection with you.

And so, yes, I enjoy that. Mm-hmm. And I've also told you, you have, again, peeled back layers and helped me understand like my body. Remember you told me like, I'm so green and she's more sexually fluent. She's just, you know, and the things that she's what she, she's, she knows a lot more than I do. I can be honest. I didn't know that there was different ways to come.

She teaches me in that area. Can I ask you something? Do you tell her you're a wonderful lover? No. Or you tell her you're a wonderful lover? No. Or you should? Yeah. You're wonderful. Because you don't voluntarily say things like that to her,

she's constantly fishing for it. And when she's fishing for it, you go into this, I'm going to be truthful. And when you become truthful, you often become hurtful. You know, one thing she prides herself on is, I never lie to you. And I'm thinking, yes, but you hurt me every day by telling me you don't want to be with a woman. You're not physically attracted to me. You like the connection, but you don't not physically attracted to me you you like the connection but you don't enjoy having sex with me you only like the way it makes you feel but you don't necessarily like

like the person who's making you feel so good exactly so she's never lied to me she's 100% truthful but she's also very hurtful too but she's not 100% truthful. She only gives you half the story. She gives you the nay story. She tells you everything she doesn't feel. That's why I said, do you ever tell her that she's a wonderful lover? A lover is how she makes you feel. It's the place she takes you. You know, sex isn't just something you do. It's a place you go.

Yeah. And you're going to places, what you call peeling of layers, that you've never gone before. Right. And that feels wonderful. And that needs to be said sometimes unequivocally, without a whole explanation. Mm-hmm. So, I'm going to ask you, do you like this? Why are you so withholding?

I think it's, well no, I think self-preservation. I think I hold back because I don't want to be, I don't know, I feel like I don't want to be hurt. I feel like I don't want to be hurt. I feel like I... Who hurt you? My child's father. I love hard. I love really hard. When you have me, you have me.

I'm very loyal. You love hard and I love really heart. When you have me, you have me. I'm very loyal. You love heart and he broke your heart? Yeah. I tolerated some stuff that I said I would never tolerate again. Meaning, you know, different partners. Like, I knew. I'd never seen anything, but I knew he was doing something. But then I tried to chalk it off as, oh, we were kids, 17, 23.

My dad told me, don't make every other man pay for his mistakes. Yeah, I didn't let other people get close enough to do anything else. As soon as I felt like, yeah, this isn't going to work. And I just let him go. I wondered if there was more than questions about her sexual attractions or about the ambivalence of her orientation and if there was also a part of her that had experienced something that made her stay so closed.

And she told us. And she told it also to her girlfriend. And at that moment, the session began to turn. Where is your family? They're back home. My mom passed about a year and a half ago. But my dad's there, grew up opposite of her family, where my mom and dad were just always like,

hey, do whatever you're doing. If you're happy, that's fine. Like, they never interfered, never thought they had an opinion about how I live my life or who I decided to live it with. They just want to make sure I wasn't hurting anybody. Nobody was hurting me and I was happy. There's never ever like a coming out story for me or anything because it wasn't, who cares? It wasn't a big deal. So it's hard for me to wrap my mind around why somebody thinks they have an opinion about how you choose to live your life. I mean, she has friends that are homophobic and that that's just like especially all the other layers of oppression that we deal with on the on a daily basis.

I just I don't understand. And've never experienced that in my own family. And she's not that type of person. She's the kind of person that'd be like, I don't care what people think. When I make my decision, I make my decision, except for with this. She's very independent. So it's out of character for her. But some of the things you wonder, is it homophobia? And some of the things you wonder, is it fear of being hurt and therefore reluctance to get closer? And anybody in my place would be

going through the same thing. Is that correct? You go back and forth? Yeah. I mean, sometimes I think it's, she will say she's ashamed of our relationship. She's embarrassed of it. She wants a relationship that she can live out loud. She wants this trophy boyfriend she can take to couples party. She doesn't know how I'm going to fit into her life.

She's putting a lot of weight on just my friends and it's not just my friends. And family. And family. I walked away. In May I walked away because she stepped out. And so I walked away. In May, I walked away because she stepped out. And so I walked away. And we deal with that in our space now. I don't want her to touch me. I don't trust her. And I felt like, at least for those three years, even though I wasn't out or you still knew,

I was committed to you against my struggles with religion and preference. Friends, I was still fighting for us. I was still here. And I felt like she gave up when she stepped out. I still felt like I was trying to show her that I was here, that I was, you know, climbing. But... Like what?

Like, physically, things that I said I would not do... got done. It, um... She wanted to tell, like, her best friend. And I was okay with that. And I was trying to, you know, just give, you know, give her things that she said she needed. That I felt like, felt okay with doing. when you speak the way you just did you're very aware of all the efforts that you were making i said yes to her friends i began to behave sexually with her in ways i've never behaved before i but the emphasis is on all the stretching and the effort that you made.

But when I think about you, you know, I think that it's one thing when people have secrets, like you have secrets. But for her, she is the secret. And when you are someone's secret, it's humiliating. And sometimes I'm wondering if you're so busy with your side of the experience that you don't necessarily see how hard it is for her to be hidden especially as a woman, as a black woman, as a lesbian

woman, hidden. The focus is on how hard it is for you vis-a-vis your community, your family, your church. But she also has, she may not have church, but she has a family and a community and a large world around that looks at her every day. What? No, I mean, it's true. And I do face that, you know, being a woman, being black, being a lesbian. And I can take it, like, from the rest of the world because I'm immune to it.

I don't know those people. It's more on a macro level. But now it's, like, really up close and personal level of rejection. And I feel like I'm being overly dramatic when I'm like, I got to face rejection every single day. Like it's hard to wake up and be rejected every single day by the person you want to be with the most. I've never wanted to be with anybody as much as I want to be with her. Never. I've never wanted to be faithful to anybody except for her.

And so I feel like it's... And how do you understand what the straying that happened? I resorted to what I know. It's my coping mechanism. I don't need to have a real, real structured relationship, but it needs to be well-defined. When stuff is not well-defined, people step out of bounds because there's no boundaries.

And so I said, can we be together? And she's like, no. Can we be together? No. And so I said, can we be together? And she's like, no. Can we be together? No. Even though she's acting like we're together. And so I just got sick of it. So I told her, I'm done. You're never going to understand what I'm going through. I'm done with you. So then of course, because the way we have done things is when we say we're done, we're not really done. So then when I start having sex with somebody else, then she calls it me cheating on her. So now that's her reason for not wanting to be with me. But what about the first three years?

What was your reason then? I totally hear you. And I also hear that each of you often gets locked into the place of you don't understand. And then we go right back to mine is worse. And to me, you have this investment into creating this choreography here of you don't get me. And each of you talks about the sacrifices that you make, the stretches that you make,

and you leave out the other person. Of course then the other person says you don't understand me. What if you started the sentence not with talking about you, but with talking about your acknowledgement of the other? I promise you something interesting will happen. I just, for me, how can I,

how can I do what needs to be done if I'm, that's like you moving across the state for a job that says you still got to, we don't know

if you got the job or not yet, but we need you to move here, relocate your life, change everything, and then on your first day of work, we might tell you if you have the job or not. No one's going to do that. She hasn't even given me the job yet. Yes, but you can spend your time asking that question or waiting for her,

but you can also ask yourself, what about me made me cross the state without knowing if I had a job but that's what I've done and not in a blaming fashion just simply for some reason I've been willing to do this this is not what I've typically done I've never done this with anybody else there's so many interesting things here about me that are completely what you would consider out of character for both of you so that's interesting you know you each are acting out of script yeah and that may open up new possibilities rather than she has not it's what can I learn about me in this relationship? Yeah, yeah, because I told you everybody else, I mean, even I meet them and I don't have to earn anything.

I don't have to fight for anything. I don't have to be patient for anything. And so this is, I think, what I needed, even though if I didn't always want it, but it has made me sit back, be patient, and think about something. I tell you that. That's why I don't understand why you think. Stay. Stay where you were. You were good.

Yeah. I mean, I tell you all the time that you're what I want. Why did I need to learn patience? Why did I need to learn that the things that are just given to me like that may not be... Well, because I won't tend to throw it away so easy because I really had to work at it. Relationships just weren't things I had to work at. They were just there, they were easy. And if they wasn't easy, I just checked out, got another one, had multiple ones. So I think with you, it's just been like teaching me

just to slow down and look at things differently. And like I always say, I'm like, no, I won't cheat on you cause you're not gonna take me back if I cheat on you. I mean, this is a turning point. Until now, it was all about I've had much experience. I've been with women. You know nothing about relationships. You just avoid intimacy.

And it's a one up, one down position. At this moment, it finally is clear that I may have had many relationships, but they were not that great. In fact, I tossed them out like tissues. And you are actually teaching me to be patient, to hang in there, to not just, you know, huff and puff and be frustrated and quit. And now we have a more equal relationship. When each person starts to look inside and gains insight, the story changes.

I've never had somebody who was willing to hold me accountable and willing to help me see that there's just more to life than what I was doing. And I appreciate that about you. I still want you to take me back, but I still appreciate that about you. And I feel like I never felt hurt about cheating on anybody, ever. And I felt really, really hurt about what I did. It was like my heart was hurting. Like, I felt sick.

I never felt sick over nobody. I never physically felt sick over any woman, ever. It still was wrong. It's still something that I shouldn't have done. But I know that in my heart it didn't feel like the other hundreds of times it has happened. Hundreds? You're a pro.

I've had girlfriends, sister girls, that have hurt me once and our relationship has never been the same. I don't go back to get hurt again. I just don't. So she's never felt bad when she cheated and you've never gone back when someone hurt you and each of you is doing something new. She did the good old thing but felt terrible about it

and you are sitting right next to her right now on this couch. So both of you are doing things that are not in the old script. Yes. You know, you totally changed my outlook on things. And you've stretched me places I never knew I even had. I didn't even know that I could feel what I feel for anybody. You showed me what a partner is.

You've helped me to feel comfortable with myself. You've taught me how to to love and want to love. So why wouldn't you want more of that, though? Why is that something to be ashamed of?

It's scary. It's scary. Can I suggest something? We have different parts inside of us. We have one part that says exactly this, I should go to the place where I feel adept in an authenticity of love that I have never known before. And then there's another part that says this is sinful, you will burn in hell, you are going to be scorned and rejected by all.

What would be another one? You're gonna get bored? You only want me because you can't have me? Yeah, I've told her that, like, after the chase is over. Mm-hmm. So, this is the voice that says, follow your heart. And this is the voice that says,

how dare you do such shameful things. And this is the voice that says, how dare you do such shameful things? And this is the voice that says, anyway, you only find me so desirable because you can't have me. And the day the chase is over, you will be bored and you won't be interested. Are there other voices? Let's make a chorus. My child will reject me. My child will reject me. My child will reject me.

My mom. My mom. Don't confuse loneliness with love. But then we need one for your dad who says do what makes you happy. Should we put him on her side or on the other side? On the other side. On the other side. Anybody else?

I have lots of little sculptures. I have five more for the inner voices. Did we already say God? No, we haven't said God. I mean, we've said the voice of shame, but is the voice of shame God? I think, and we've talked about this too, where we overlook some sins, but this one is like, you raised this one so high. That is the worst sin. Oh, it doesn't have to be people.

What I'm saying is you have different voices inside of you, different parts of you. And what you think is a contradiction is actually a chorus of voices that sometimes fit nicely together and sometimes not. Do you want to make your little chorus too? You must have one too yeah all right we're gonna put yours here all right what's this one what makes you stay with somebody who after three and a half years doesn't want to doesn't know what they want to be with you why do you want to be with somebody who's continuously ambivalent about you she clearly wants to be with you because she shows you love every day. So just stop, just stop obsessing over her not committing completely to you. That's this one answers directly this one. And I would even add another sentence. And since when

did you become such a master of commitment? Right. Where does that arrogance come from? You know, you present yourself like you are coming out of the commitment school. In fact, you know, your resume, your relationship resume lives somewhat to be desired when it comes to commitment. So these two are having quite a chat with each other. All right, do we have another one? Yeah. This relationship is too hard and is it really all worth it? Yeah. It shouldn't have to be so much work. Can you believe that's the conversations you're having? It's all of these talking at the same time. And when you have

your conversations, you have to highlight this is that part of me talking now rather than this is me. The very things that you're each complaining about

in the other is actually why you're here. And that has nothing to do with gay street or anything. That's couple. When they came in, they were stuck. Deadly serious, without an ounce of movement or humor. Caught in the loop in which each person was pointing finger at the other.

Where they are now is owning things, able to bring the light on them. And as we have created with the sculptures the multiple voices inside of them, we also have brought complexity to the fact that there are all kinds of contradictory feelings here who are trying to sort themselves out. Esther Perel is the author of Mating in Captivity and the State of Affairs, and also the host of the podcast, How's Work?

To reply with your partner for a session for the podcast, or for show notes on each episode, go to whereshouldwebegin.esterperel.com. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise for Gimlet and Esther Perel Productions. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Eva Walchover,

Destry Sibley, Hywote Gatana, and Olivia Natt. Recorded by Noriko Akabe. Kristen Mueller is our engineer. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We would also like to thank Nazanin Rafsanjani, Courtney Hamilton, Lisa Schnall, Nick Oxenhorn, Dr. Guy Winch, and Jack Saul.