Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - When the Turn On Becomes a Turn Off

Episode Date: February 10, 2025

Sexual preferences demand a lot of trust, intimacy, and vulnerability in relationships. This week, Esther talks with a couple who are refreshingly open and honest about their fantasies. But after 15 years of marriage, his fetish is no longer her pleasure. Esther helps them uncover the underlying emotional needs driving their fantasies and encourages them to seek a broader and more emotionally connected sexual repertoire. Want to learn more? Receive monthly insights, musings, and recommendations to improve your relational intelligence via email from Esther: https://www.estherperel.com/newsletter Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel. Each episode of Where Should We Begin is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real. Indeed. And listeners of this show will get a $100 sponsored job credit to get your job's more visibility at indeed.com slash Vox CA. Just go to indeed.com slash Vox CA right now and support the show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash Vox CA. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring Indeed is all you need. Thumbtack presents the ins and outs of caring for your home. Out.

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Start caring for your home with confidence. Download Thumbtack today. The biggest thing in our relationship has been my strong fascination with her having sex with other people. For me it's been a constant struggle. I have this one side of me that's like, yes I want her to have sex with another man, but then there's this same part of me that's like, wait, wait, wait, hold up, like, you really want to drop a nuclear bomb in the middle of your relationship? At first, it was kind of exciting, fun.

And then we start having kids, things get much more serious. Yet he still wanted to talk about this. And for me, it just seemed too risky. 25 years I've been dealing with this. It's on my mind whenever I'm thinking sexual things, it's like, it always comes back to that every time. In my mind, while we're having sex, I'm not turned on by this, I'm not thinking about it,

I'm in my old world. I wanna explore something else. This is not fun for me anymore. In the screening that we did with this couple that preceded the session, the theme for him was the tenacity of a sexual fetish that he struggles with, and for her, the increasing boredom with the centrality of this fetish in their sexual lives.

But the session proved way more layered and complex than that. So what's important for me to know about your world and who you are in that world? Well, I guess just to start, I feel like I'm really happy to have her in my life. She's really open and thoughtful and honest, and we talk very openly, and I don't think we've ever lied to each other, you know? This is what I remember from the first date, is that she was really true, you know?

Looking into her eyes, you could tell she was how she acted. And I mean, other reasons, I mean, she's beautiful, she's smart and funny and fun. And you? What about him? Why him? I just thought he was really interesting. So the second date is when I really started to like him

and the two main things that I remember about that second date was like him just looking me deep in the eye and saying, you're beautiful. Like, there was something about it that felt special. And then just his story that he was living in New York and he let a homeless guy spend the night in his house. It just like took him in, which, you know, looking back, like if he said that now,

or if he ever did something like that now, I would be like, what are you doing? But like at the time I was like, ooh, that's cool. So those are the two main things that I remember about that, but there must have been other things and just like our connection in general that I can't really describe in words. Yeah.

So tell me, what do you want to talk about and why now? Well, we have a very interesting sex life because of his fantasies and it has been in the last year I guess in the last six months or so it's become more annoying for me well I want to spell it out, just so. So he always brings up either during sex or before we have sex or when he's talking about the next time we're having sex, he'll always just say he wants me to have sex with other men or be excited about it or he wants me to be turned on by another man and he wants me to like look forward to it. You want her to get turned on by the thought of being with another man or other man plural. You want to watch her be sexual with other men. You want to join them in the sex, you want to be a voyeur that they know is there,

you want to be a voyeur that is invisible, that they do not know is there. A fantasy is usually extremely specific and detailed. It's never vague. Yeah. So like the normal rational me, who you're talking to now, you know, doesn't want that at all.

Doesn't want my wife to be with another man. But when I start getting into that fantasy, when I get excited about it, I would like her to go out on a date and date some guy and have a love affair. I don't want to participate in it. I guess ideally I would like to see her while she's having sex. I want to see her enjoy it or just know she's loving it,

but I don't really want it to happen. No, but that is the definition of fantasy. There are many fantasies. We would never want them to happen in reality. That's the whole point of it. Do you actually meet other men? Not for a long time. In the beginning, before we had kids,

we played with the idea. So one time I visited a friend, and then I was grinding up on some guy at a dance club or something. And then I was sending pictures to him of me dancing with the guy. And he was like, oh, I really, yeah, keep doing that, this is perfect. Like, good girl. He might not have said good girl, but

that was a really intense weekend for him because I sent that picture. And then maybe a couple years later, I was sexting his friend. So we would talk about what we would do to each other and everything, and it was really sexy. I was really into it, and he was really into it, and the other guy was really into it. And I was getting excited, like, all this is really going to happen. This will be fun.

And then he all of a sudden was like, nope, you're not doing it. This is going too far. Well, I mean, yeah, I didn't say it like that, but yes, I put the brakes on. It was me that put the brakes on. Yeah. Yeah. So then I was upset then. I mean, I don't know if upset's the right word. I was mad. I was frustrated because I, the right word. I was mad, I was frustrated, because he had me believing this was okay, and I was allowing myself to be excited for it, but I didn't get to do it, and I was upset.

So then, I feel like after that, I was kind of less excited to do it, because I was like, what was the point in getting all excited about it if I'm just not gonna be able to do it anyway? I was like, what was the point in getting all excited about it if I'm just not going to be able to do it anyway? Maybe that's when things started getting a little bit less fun for me when he brought it up. In a lot of the cases, I'm just so bored with it and everything, and I just don't want to

hear it anymore. But the other part is I know deep down he doesn't want me to do this kind of stuff. And deep down it's hurting him and it's not what he truly wants. I think when it's all over he feels bad. It might get him excited and we might have good sex over it or something, but then the next, maybe when he has an orgasm or whatever, it'll just start to feel low. He feels regretful. And this might be like a sex addiction type thing a little bit because I, it's kind of

obsessive a little bit with it. It's a strong feeling, super strong feeling of like really wanting it to happen, but then you know once I have an orgasm or whatever like to write after it's like, what am I doing? Like what part of me is sabotaging this thing I value so much? And like I'll try during some of the sex times

to go along with it a little bit. Like he'll say, do you want it? Do you want to have sex with another man? I'll be like, yeah. Yeah. Sometimes that's enough for him. But it's like, well, there was a time where I wasn't even saying it. Like, no, it's not a good thing to even say yeah, because that's just going to take you off to the races and you need to be brought back to reality. I think that what needs to be highlighted here is that the level of frankness, the sexual candor

that exists between these two people is its own unique intimacy. There's nothing puritanical in the way they address each other about this. There's also nothing judgmental. They're getting a little annoyed, a little bored, but essentially there is no what's wrong with you, you're sick, this is pathological. Yes, they highlight the essential quality of the addiction because of its compulsive, obsessive nature, but so is a fetish in some way. The fetish often includes that element of

obsessiveness. We tried a lot of different strategies. You tried various strategies for what? What are you trying to do? To like get at this fantasy and to make him satisfied. That's the goal? Is that why we're here? To make him satisfied? I mean, yeah, I feel like he's the driving force with the sexual desire. I mean, I have a sexual desire, but I kind of feel like masturbating is enough for me

a lot of times. Like, I don't know, it's subtle when I actually want to have sex. Like it doesn't feel like I need it. Usually it's just like I could go for an orgasm right now and I'll just take care of myself. You know, so in our relationship, his sexual desire is basically what I'm working on for him. Yeah. That's why we're here. Really? Well, this is what we wanna talk about too.

Is my best self who I should be working toward, is my sexuality part of that? Maybe, but maybe not. Like I kind of feel like in my top values in life, embracing my sexuality doesn't necessarily need to be part of my best self, but maybe it can be. Is having a good sex life really all that important in life, in our relationship in general?

in life, in our relationship in general. Yeah. Yeah, so I have this thing where it's really strong. It's all channeled into this fantasy pretty much, this really strong sex drive. Then it's almost like needing a drug and- When did you discover it? This fantasy. It's a fantasy, it's a fetish, it's a kink, you can call it anything you want.

And what is the word you use? We used to say addiction. Or fetish, yeah. You're describing the hot wife cock-holed fantasy. Yeah, the cock-holed fantasy. Yeah, the cock-holed thing. I mean, I hate that one actually, just because it seems so, like, demasculating or whatever. There are many terms out there, so you can pick the one.

Okay. Because what will matter is the meaning that you make of it. And even this emasculating logic is only one of the many different ways that men experience it. It's one of the most common fantasies of men, and it's even more common among gay men. So we're not in a very obscure territory. But I'm curious, how did you discover it? Because we stumble upon our turn-ons. It's not like we planned them.

Well yeah, so I, in high school, I never dated. I was overweight and girls were not interested. Well, yeah, so I, in high school, I never dated. I was overweight and girls were not interested much to my sexual frustration. And then in college, I lost weight. Did you feel like in high school you were often watching how other people were having fun? Yeah. Yeah.

So you started watching early. Yeah. Yeah, so it probably goes back to that. But then, yeah, my first relationship, it was like she flirted a little with other guys and stuff. And one time, I just remember we were having sex. And I was like, think about somebody, think about another man. And she was shocked and was like, no.

And so then I never brought it up again. But it was a surprise to me bringing that up. So then with my second serious relationship, it was just something that was throughout the thing. I would bring it up and it was always a struggle. I hated that part of myself. I hated it because I didn't have control over it. I felt like everything else inside of me,

I could pretty much control even like my weight. I felt like I could control a lot of things, but that thing I could not control and I hated it. It was really something that I really did not like and wanted it out of It was really something that I really did not like and wanted out of me. I hated that part because it was basically sabotaging the things that I valued a lot, you know.

And the more you would try to get it out of your system and the more it would actually manifest itself. Yeah. And that's where you began to think about it being addictive. system and the more it would actually manifest itself. And that's where you began to think about it being addictive. May I invite you to think about it in terms of it speaks, it says something. It has a meaning. Sometimes it's important to listen to what meaning it has. What is it doing not

just to you, but also for you? When you take a situation that you used to not control, like high school, like all those adolescent years, and now you own it, you initiate it, you introduce it, and you get to control the very thing that you once could not control. Yeah. That was the problem. And then you turned it into a solution because you can play her going to someone else,

but ultimately she's with you. Yeah. I think it was painful that you can't control other person's sexuality. Like they are going to have sexual desires that are outside of you with other people and stuff. And I think it's my mind's unconsciously, it's turned it into control and it turns it into something pleasurable for some reason. What I'm hearing you say, you tell me, is that there were many painful years of rejection

and of basically being put in the position of watching. Watching with a sense that maybe this will never be you. So you turn it around. Yeah. What happens in the erotic mind is that we often create situations that tap into our deepest fears, wounds, but also dreams and aspirations. Because the fantasy allows you to control it.

It takes that situation that used to be so painful and turns it into excitement and anticipation, which is ingenious, because it's experienced sometimes as repair rather than repetition. Why am I putting myself back in the same situation? Because I'm actually not in the same situation. It has all the elements of the same situations, but I've turned it around, and now it becomes a source of pleasure. My question is, do you have sex without it? Is this part of you, the silent or the non-so-silent third party in your sex life at all times so that there is a kind of a restriction

That doesn't enable you to just broaden the repertoire together It does feel like a restriction and it's always a barrier with us and it's always there No matter what we're talking about sexually or like we both know that it's always there. So there's not really much going around it. I mean if I was like, oh this would really turn me on. I would like it if you did this or something. I don't know. Do you ever ask for anything?

I mean I have certain like porn scenarios in my head that turn me on. I'm kind of in that world, in my own head. I don't really want to talk about it. I just want to believe that's what's going on. Some porn-related thing that I saw. Again, something I wouldn't want in real life, but some man being really demeaning to me, that kind of thing. Or like several men being demeaning to me. So that's what's going on in my head

and I don't really want him to be a part of all that. And what is the fantasy for you? Well, so it's not really like as specific as his, but like it's, like I've watched porn before and like, cream pie gang bang might be something I type in. Well, and just like these little comments that these men make while they're having sex, like when one guy is like ordering the other guys around,

I like that. And then the girls who would be me, I guess, in my fantasy, just like taking it. You know, just like being talked down to, and I'm just like a sex object, and they can care less about me, that kind of thing. That's what turns me on. And what is the turn on for you? What is it that turns you on in the demeaning, in the gangbang, in the rapey, in the being the object? And when I say what is it, it's because I tend to think that our sexual fantasies are a coded language for some of our deepest emotional needs. What What he experiences may be translated into a high sexual rush,

but what it satisfies is a deep emotional need. I am attractive, I am wanted, I'm desirable, I get to tell this woman how far and how, and she comes back. And yours? What's to turn in? What gets liberated? What gets opened up? Mm-hmm. Well, I think the man in my fantasy

is just like doing exactly what he wants, and he's feeling really good. It's like, I guess, my body is giving him that need, filling that need for him, and I guess I feel like I'm doing my job or something. Does that make sense? As in, can I understand what you're saying? Of course I do, but I want, see, I think that you've spent

so much more time in his head and in his erotic mind than he has spent in yours. Yeah, definitely. And there is a certain lack of curiosity on his part vis-a-vis you, and in effect, you have over time developed a lack of curiosity vis-a-vis yourself too. You spend more time managing

his wishes than actually remaining an active participant. And so that will bring more resentment. Yeah. I mean, I guess, I mean, I want to say in his defense or whatever, but it's not. Please do. But, I mean, I don't say that it's important to me and like I don't feel like I need it. I think I satisfy myself enough with my own thoughts on it. And like while we're together too, I thought I was like understanding myself and not like I because I understand the ideas that turn me on and everything and it I mean, I'd say it's good enough.

I just want him to understand it more. Yeah. I know you do. Yeah. But I don't know if he. Okay, yeah. And why am I asking this? Because it's an important dimension of your relationship.

It's also one of the few places where you actually meet the two of you. And I understood that you said, I've got my thing, I'm set, I have my toys, I have myself, I have my fantasies, I don't really need to engage. But in the same breath, you're telling me, I'm getting bored, I'm getting resentful, I start to feel like his fantasy controls our sexuality.

And all I do is try to skirt around one way. And that, in the long term, is not particularly the best place to land. While she's asking how important is sex in my life. I begin to also notice that it is not maybe for her sexuality that needs to be questioned but intimacy. A fetish is in itself often rigid and so it looks like all the rigidity lies with him but there is a kind of a collusion between them around a structure of rigidity lies with him. But there is a kind of a collusion between them around a structure of rigidity whereby she too is very focused on a particular line of excitement. But more importantly what she says to him is, I can only take you at a certain distance. I don't want to get too close to you.

I like the distance that we have between us. That structure suits me. There's a tremendous amount of candor and intimacy and closeness in the way that they can freely talk about both of their predilections. It's mature, there's no hangup about it. It's astoundingly refreshing. Where they get more challenged is when they talk about levels of closeness and qualities of

connection. And that's probably what has been hidden because there's been so much talk about sex and fetishes and desires. in fact there's a different conversation that needs to take place between them and so this is where we're gonna go. We have to take a brief break. Stay with us. Support for Where Should We Begin comes from Shopify. Every business is looking to build a lasting relationship with its customers. That means cultivating reliability and trust. And that might sound simple, but if you're a small business owner, you know that it's easier said than done. If you want to build your business on a rock-solid foundation that your customers can rely on, you might want to check out Shopify.

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You can make all of Hungry Root's recipes in just 15 minutes or less, and the meals get more personalized as they learn more about what you liked. I immediately thought of some friends who could really improve their eating habits so I sent them a package from Hungry Root. Let's see what they come back with. You too can take advantage of this exclusive offer. For a limited time, get 40% off your first box plus get a free item in every box for life. Go to hungryroot.com slash begin and use code begin. I guess, I mean, we've talked about this a lot and I think it's like, what is the ideal situation, you know, after you've been married for 15 years, what's the ideal sex life with two people?

Is it you just think of your own things in your head and you have sex and you know, it's good, it's fine. Is it you make love where you're like, I love you so much, so it's not so much sex, it's just like, I just love you and I'm expressing it this way. Or is it where my fantasy was where like she was very excited about somebody else, I was very excited. Do you push that limit further and is that worth it?

The risk, is it worth the risk for the excitement? What's the ideal thing after being married for 15 years? What's ideal sex life? That's what we've been wondering about. And you think I have the answer to this? That's why we're here. Because there's one ideal and it's a set answer and it's a one size fits all? No. But it seems to me, I mean, I could be wrong, but it seems like I look around at all the other couples in our neighborhood and stuff. Or I know my wrong, but it seems like I look around at all the other people, you

know, couples in our neighborhood and stuff. And I know my friends, the friends I've talked with, and it's all mediocre at best kind of sex life, like if they've been married this long. Honestly, I think our sex life right now is above average. And it gets frustrating sometimes. I know I annoy her with that. And you harbor shame. I do harbor shame when I feel like I pushed it too far.

Right. So those are the pieces. Yeah. And what makes you have more what you call a more than average sex life is not just the sex that you are having, but the amount of conversations and explorations that you are having about your sex life. Meaning it's an important part of your life. It has a lot of value and sexuality became the place where you experienced a lot of wounding

and also where you experienced a lot of healing. For someone else it could have been art or fishing or cooking or something. And so then the question is, do you ever watch the porn with him? Do you ever bring him into your own erotic space? I mean we have, it's usually if we bring porn in I watch it and he doesn't. Like he'll just like go down on me or something.

Well I watch it. You're the one watching him and he is acting on you. Okay. So the ideal is all of this. It's not a set pattern. In fact, it's the flexibility. It's the fact that it changes. There's a difference between what works, what's exciting, what's at the core of my erotic schema, and then there is how do I feel about it? Do I accept it? Do I understand it? do I make sense of it, do I just integrate it into a part of me?

A very special, unique, convoluted, irrational part of me. Or is it conflictual? Every time I think about it, I would like to eject it. The part of me that doesn't like it, that rejects it and feels shame, is the part that realizes that it's so strong and that it's willing to risk my family, everything, to get it. Give me an example.

Well, I mean, good examples with my friend. I orchestrated it and I really wanted it to happen, and it would have happened if I didn't put the brakes on. If it would have happened, who knows where that would have led to. She might have fallen in love or it might have led to her going out with other guys and falling in love eventually and get divorced or something. I don't know, but that's an example.

And you stopped it. I did. I did. But I feel like it was close. It's barely, I mean, I would like to not take it as seriously. I think, oh, yeah, this is just my adolescence who's hurt and it's a playful thing, but it takes me over in the strong thing that's willing to risk everything. Do you ever talk to it?

I don't know if I talk to it. What would you say? If I talk to it. If I talk to it? Mm-hmm. Ah. Help me to help you. Like, let's figure out a way that you don't have to be so overpowering in my life. I'd rather not my life be destroyed by you.

Let's be friends. So we don't, like, let's not be be enemies so that you don't destroy my life. Part of me is listening to his words and part of me is listening to his laughter. And especially when you have a laughter that expresses the discomfort, the anxiety, the shame. It's a nervous laughter of which I'm not even sure that he knows he's laughing. But what I know is that me and maybe you, while you listen to him, hear that there is a kind of a disconnect between the affect and the feelings that accompany the words and the laughter that is meant to bury these feelings. You know, when I laugh like this, what I actually feel?

Well, I think it's just dealing with my uncomfortableness and I guess the absurdity of it. You know, when I laugh like this, it's more than discomfort. When I tap into my hatred of you, it taps into the contempt I have for me, that you exist inside of me. Yeah.

Yeah, but I've learned that the more I hate it, it just makes it stronger. The more I focus on it, the more strong it becomes. So I think I'm learning more to try to find a way to appreciate it more or like try to not hate it. How's that going? I think it's going better. I don't know. I've tried everything else.

So I think this is the only way through. I can't fight it. I don't think trying to understand it has helped because I've thought about it so long and so much and it just seems to give it more life or something. So I think I have to find a way to appreciate it and love it in some way, like see what it means. Yeah, maybe it's a piece of my childhood, like, that needs love.

Maybe it's helping me in some way. Do you think if you brought in some more curiosity toward her, that it would change the way you come to terms with your fetish. It won't go away. You're right. But it can change meaning. It can take less space. It can be less frightening or have less contempt. Because you connect to her in multiple ways. It's about adding other things.

It's not about making this go down. I think that would be good. I think that would be helpful. There are many paths to take here. I just went with one, which is that his decades-long focus and obsessiveness about this thing inside of him. I decided in this moment, instead of helping him to go more inside, to actually become more relational, to become more curious about her. I was reminded of another man I once worked with who had erectile difficulties and he would have rapid ejaculation and he was so busy looking down at his penis and making

sure that his cock worked and stayed strong and hard and was going to deliver that in effect he was really not attentive to his partner. He was constantly making sure that he would not fail, as he would call it, but he wasn't really present with her. And then I suggested in the session that he put his hands in her hair and just slowly, slowly, slowly caress her head. And I remember the motion of her lips opening up and to tell him that what would actually make it enjoyable for her was not that he could stay harder longer, but that he could

actually be present and attentive to her. And there's something about that here that I was summoning up for myself. Instead of making sure that this thing doesn't take you over, put some of that focus on her. If you become a little more curious about her, your mind will go and put itself on the connection between the two of you, and that in itself will ground you. I think that is also a part of him on the connection between the two of you, and that in itself will ground you.

I think that there's also a part of him that still does not see himself as desirable, wanted, and attractive. There's a big part of him that continues to see himself as the chubby, rejected, excluded, invisible little boy. And that is the part that the fetish is holding a grip on. And that's where the laughter sits. We are in the midst of our session. There is still so much to talk about. We need to take a brief break, so stay with us.

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Hey, this is Peter Kafka. I'm the host of Channels, a podcast about technology and media. And maybe you've noticed that a lot of people are investing a lot of money trying to encourage you to bet on sports right now, right from your phone. That is a huge change and it's happened so fast that most of us haven't spent much time

thinking about what it means and if it's a good thing. But Michael Lewis, that's the guy who wrote Moneyball and the Big Shore and Liar's Poker, has been thinking a lot about it and he tells me that he's pretty worried. I mean, there was never a delivery mechanism for cigarettes as efficient as the phone is for delivering the gambling apps. It's like the world has created less and less friction for the behavior when what it needs is more and more. You can hear my chat with Michael Lewis right now on channels, wherever you get your podcasts. Do you experience her desire for you separately in and of itself?

Sexual desire? Yes. Yes. A little. But I do feel that, you know, when you've been with someone for 15 years, that, well, definitely the newness is not there, you know, the exciting newness. But I mean, I know when we're having sex, I can tell when she's into it. I mean, before, did I notice it more? And did you even get a sense of it?

Because you were so into the script. Yeah. There's a part of you that has not had the opportunity to actually. Yeah. Yeah, I know. And that I think has led to some, like pretty recently within the last year we had that fight where she dressed very, she looked great, she was very sexy. Talk to her, she's right here.

When is this people talk to each other in the third person? When we went out on the date and you dressed very sexy and you looked great and yeah I turned it into my thing and that was frustrating for you, I know, because I... Meaning, what happened? Well, I felt she looked very sexy and sexual and I was like, you gotta wear this when you go out with another guy or something. I said something like that

and I think it was really frustrating for her because... Talk to her. Yeah, you even said, I think, I wish I could just be attractive to you without you bringing that in. And yeah, why didn't I appreciate it just on my own? My thought that the issue

in part still resides in his not having internalized that he is an attractive, desirable man, is expressed right when he says, when you dress sexy like that, this is attractive to the other guys. It's got to go through another guy who is the attractive, desirable, real man, when I am still that unwanted teenager. And that is the deflation that he experiences after he goes through the whole enactment. It's the deflation that confirms

that he's actually still that undesirable boy. Speak up. There was a lot running through my mind this whole time. Yes, yes. But I don't, what? Well, when you're asking him, does he feel my desire for him, I felt a little guilty.

I know I don't compliment him that much. He's always complimenting me. You are. You sit around with him. You are always complimenting me and I feel bad that I... The reason I'm asking you to talk in the second person singular is because there is something in the way that you each talk about each other in the third person that is similar to the way you would enjoy if each of you could be in your own fantasy life, in your head, while your bodies are together, but each one in their own space.

There's something about the you that is direct that you can avoid when you say he. Yes. So just so you understand, not just picky for grammar. Yeah, yes. I get it. that is direct, that you can avoid when you say he. Yes. So just so you understand, I'm not just picky for grammar. Yeah, yes. I get it. So yeah, I felt guilty when she was asking you about that. Because I know I was guilty of not giving you the compliments that you deserve, and also like not being touchy

and initiating physical contact too. I'm not good at that, I'm sorry. For sitting next to each other watching TV or something, I may think, oh, it would be nice if I touched his leg right now. I don't do it because I feel uncomfortable. I don't initiate hugging you or kissing you and everything. I appreciate when you initiate hugging me and kissing me

and I'm very happy somebody's doing it. You really help us to stay connected because you do that. It's just for me, it's hard. I don't know, it's just hard. It doesn't come natural. You can't just say that. Why not? Because it's a cop-out.

I'm not good at this. After 15 years, it's a cop-out. Because it's 15 years you're saying I'm not good at this. He spends all his time trying to figure out what rolls inside of him. Are you comfy touching, kissing, hugging your kids? Yes. Or also reluctantly? I always was, when they were baby,

I feel like maybe I'm getting a little bit more uncomfortable. I enjoy hugging them, and I enjoy kissing them, and I initiate it. But I do also enjoy distance. He enjoys family couch time, where all four of us are like sitting right next to each other,

and I'm just like, okay, I'm gonna go the other couch. I enjoy having my space. I know I have a part to play in our, in the barriers of our sex life, because I'm, I put up a little distance distance and I'm not as comfortable being physical with you. So it leaves a lot of space for your fetish to come out.

And you do deserve to have me, like, being more touchy with you and hugging you and everything. I wish I could do that more. I think my ideal self would like it. I could see that being nice. Just like anytime you're uncomfortable. But you can be uncomfortable because it feels intrusive. You can be uncomfortable because it feels demanding. You can be uncomfortable because it feels extracting. You can be uncomfortable because it feels non-consensual. Uncomfortable is a code word for a bunch of other things. So it's not enough to just say I'm not good at it, because it lacks curiosity and you're too smart for that. Like, why not?

My ideal self would love to feel more expressive physically and it would actually enrich the vocabulary between us so that we don't get organized by this one aspect of his sexuality. How do you expand the repertoire? It's not even that you diminish the fact you don't, but you sometimes diminish its ambitions. You diminish the space it takes. And that happens because you enrich other parts. Because both your scripts, your erotic scripts, are high intensity, low emotion.

Your porn script is a high intensity, low emotion. Your porn script is a high intensity low emotion. Actually the whole turn on is because of the low emotion. You like the guys who are not thinking about you, you don't have to think about them. Everybody gets to do exactly what they want and that is very freeing. There's no caretaking. And that works wonders for you. So it works well because you actually are in a similar zone, high intensity, low emotion. But what you're saying is after X amount of years, it starts to feel a little rote. So how do I introduce other intensity? And now the question is, do you just find other high intensity, low emotion,

or do you bring in a little bit more emotion? Well, I don't like the sound of bringing emotion. Yeah, I got it. Well, I was thinking it might be nice to bring in some emotion, but yeah, I don't know. How would you want it? How would you want it? How would I want it? Yeah.

Well, just what I think I would like is us talking and then touching and then it leading to sex like that. Well, I would just be so surprised even if I'm like, oh yeah, I'm touching you, you know, I'm comfortable with this. And I'm like, yeah, I'm so into you, you're so sexy and everything. Still feel like the fetish is gonna come and take over no matter what.

Yeah, I think we'd have to make a conscious effort to bring in other things. Well, and when the fetish creeps in, you would have to ignore it. Yeah, you acknowledge it, but then you disinvade it. Actually, you ask it to look at the two of you. Really, you ask it to look at the two of you. Yeah.

Maybe, try. I mean, you've tried a zillion different things, but it's like you're trying to push it down, push it down, and then it just springs back up. So that rarely works. But you can subvert it. You can give it a different role. You can put it on mute for 10 minutes. I'll come back to you.

I wanna be with my wife tonight, a little bit more than with you. But there needs to be something then here of which the volume rises. If this space is too quiet, then the voice of the fetish takes over. Yeah. But in that realm, I just don't understand

how people could have an orgasm thinking of love for their husband and wife. It's not the goal. You're not doing that. I mean, isn't that kind of what we're talking about? No. No. Well, I guess I'm just wondering, like, if we're talking about making emotion a part of our sex life, I picture, the goal, doesn't that mean? Because when you talk about the sex life,

you're talking about the act of sex. Yeah. When I'm talking about your sex life, I'm talking about an energy. Okay. A presence. Yeah. The air.

I'm not talking about what you do. Talking about the quality of aliveness, of vibrancy, vitality, imagination, playfulness, curiosity, that. That makes sense, yeah. Okay. Right? What's the erotic charge between these people? Do they even notice when somebody gets dressed up?

Do they notice when they look good? Do they take a minute to look at each other? Do they remember that they are sexual beings? It's everything in between, which unfortunately people don't call sex, but of course it is, because you can do sex and feel nothing. Doing it doesn't tell you much. And part of what you both are looking at is the quality of the experience. So I often think sex isn't just something you do, it's a place you go.

With him, with yourself, in your fantasy life, in your mind, you go to a place that is free of charge, no emotional responsibility. That frees me up. That's the low emotion piece. It's not that you don't care about him or anything. You take for granted that he tells you nice things or that he comes and he hugs you and you enjoy it because you know it's important and you know that he takes care of the quota. And then you just kind of get away with it by saying, but I'm not into it, or it's not my thing.

Rather than, if I want him to talk to me slightly differently, I have to talk to him slightly differently too. Like if I want him, I mean, I don't think I need him to talk to me different ways. If he felt more seen, liked, desired, appreciated in that way, he would rely slightly less perhaps he would rely slightly less perhaps on this one script

that he has elaborated over decades to fill all those needs for him. What are you thinking? Yeah, I think that makes sense. I mean, I'm hopeful that we could explore the possibility of different ways, and I think that could help. And yeah, it doesn't have to be sex so much as touching and... We do a good job of talking openly and intimately. I think it would be also good if we could connect physically at the same time

or as an expression of that. I feel like we kind of tried this though, right? Remember that time where I was like, I'm gonna hug you every morning when I wake up. Remember that time where I was like, I'm gonna hug you every morning when I wake up? Remember that? Yeah, yeah, I remember. When I was committed to- And what happened?

I was committed to doing it, but you didn't seem to enjoy it, or like it wasn't helpful. I mean, one option is we schedule the sex instead of sex one time, we do that. At least that would be a way to experiment with it and see. Well you're saying to like massage each other or something? Well no, just like talk and look and be close in bed,

talking and looking at each other and just touching. You know what, you're skeptical. Yeah, well I don't think it would work. I guess I just don't know how that is a solution moving forward. When you decide to do more exploration, just to get less in a narrow groove, you can't constantly measure outcome on the spot. I did this, then work.

I did this, it didn't change. That is a terrible way to explore sexually or emotionally or in any form of exploration for that matter. The whole point of exploration is a different relationship with the unknown in which you tried once like that, once like that. You talk about it, you check it out or you don't, but you leave it open-ended. If you put yourself in a testing mode, pass, fail, you're gonna give up very quick.

It's utterly not motivating. But there's a part of you that says, if we want this to remain interesting, fun, rich, something we enjoy together, then yes, we need to innovate. But it doesn't mean this position, that position. It means to innovate the conversation between us, the connection between us, the time we spend alone that is not about sex. It's actually creating erotic spaces. And when I say erotic, I mean spaces for curiosity,

for exploration, for aliveness. And that may mean that maybe the couch is not the place. Maybe the street is the place, because on the street you know for a fact that there are boundaries. Maybe the club is the place because on the street you know for a fact that there are boundaries. Maybe the club is the place. It can be the comedy cellar, it can be experiences. When I say emotion, I'm not talking about just sitting and dabbling in the fragile zones

of our feelings. I'm talking about other levels of interaction. I say comedy because I think laughing together is incredible. So in my book, this is part of working on sex. I know it feels like, what does that have to do? But it does. Because sex is about energy, it's about release, it's about pleasure, it's about spontaneity. All of that is part of the broader question of what do

we do for the next 15 years? In this episode, we worked with a man who is struggling with the tenacity of a sexual fetish that has dominated much of his sexual life and his internal emotional life for that matter. I did another conversation recently with Gillian Anderson. You may remember her from the TV series Sex Education, where she played the lead character. My conversation with Gillian was about her book WAND, where she invited hundreds of women to send her anonymously their sexual fantasies. If you want to listen to it, you can go straight to the podcast and go back to November.

But more importantly, if you want to watch it, go to my YouTube channel and you can see us in conversation of one of the most fascinating aspects of human sexuality, fantasies and the erotic mind. minds. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise. We're part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Destrie Sibley, Sabrina Farhi, Kristen Muller, and Julian Att. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive

producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We'd also like to thank Courtney Hamilton, Mary Alice Miller, and Jack Saul.