Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - Where Are They Now - A Romantic Revival

Episode Date: December 2, 2021

For the first time on the podcast, Esther invites a couple back to her office for a second session. 10 years ago, his first wife took her own life. A year later he met his current wife and she became an overnight stepmother to four children. Three years after they first spoke to Esther, she asks them what has changed? Have they been able to revive and sustain their love despite all of the obstacles? Listen to the original episode from Season 2 here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What you are about to hear is the follow-up session of Where Should We Begin? None of the voices in this series are ongoing clients of Esther Perel's, but we wanted to revisit with this couple and see how their episode had impacted their story. To hear their original episode, just search for A Romantic Revival on Spotify or wherever you listen. To maintain confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed. But their voices and their stories are real. So this is the first time that I actually have a second session with a couple

that was part of a season in Where Should We Begin. I became an instant parent when I got married. I had four kids who lost their first mom to suicide. My first wife took her life on St. Patrick's Day of 2011. A year later, we met, and we've been picking up the pieces. This next couple has confronted death in their midst. For the past six years, this event has been at the center of their family life. Over these now six years that I've been in their lives, we have been in that survival

mode. It has been the most heart-wracking yet profound experience of love in my entire life. They are now ready to live again. As a New Year's resolution, the couple chose a word for themselves, an aspiration, revive. And I have a sense that they came to work with me so that together they can transition

from not dead to alive and from survival to revival. And many people have asked me, what happened to those people? What happened to those people? Why don't you follow up? So it's been on my mind many times. And of course, what's also on my mind is what stayed with them? Where did it take them?

Was it useful? Do they ever talk about it? Have they ever listened to it? You have stayed with me. I have no idea if this stayed with you, if I stayed with you, or what stayed with you. Well, you definitely stayed with us. I know that I've listened to the episode multiple times, and I'm sure she's listened to it more than that. But it's been nice to go back and have that, I guess, timestamp on our lives and where we were. I know for me, when we first listened to it, we went for a walk and we shared the earbuds. How soon after?

I think the day. The day it released. The day it released. I was so nervous. About what? the day the day it released i was so nervous and about what i think i just just to hear the story back when you're in the moment and you're you're sharing you're not thinking about what are people going to hear what they're gonna you're just sharing and then to hear it recorded to hear those truths spoken the vulnerabilities and how did it serve you in creating change? I think it made me more perceptive in moments when we would talk,

or even not to take things personal in a way that I think in the past I would. It helped me have a lot more grace in those moments. Do you know what she's referring to? No. No, because you have an eyebrow that goes up. I don't know what you're talking about. The fight or flight freeze, the freezing, that even though they're physically maybe frozen,

everything internally is going rapid. Yeah. Oh, okay. And that it's not so much that I'm going to leave, it's that I'm so afraid, but I'm paralyzed, and it's a protective mechanism. In tracking the brain's responses to trauma, we are often familiar with fight and flight. But we also have freeze.

And sometimes it seems to me that the freeze points to an even more overwhelming set of experiences that were just simply too much to absorb and left the person frozen, helpless, and in a state of terror. After you said that, when you talked about that, it helped me in those moments to even come down off of, okay, I just need to walk away right now because I'm not helping our situation. And we need to come back to this later. Not because I'm leaving, but because I'm not getting anywhere, not out of frustration, but it's not helpful. It gave me more compassion and grace. Didn't take away those moments of hurt or my own frustration, but to just have some perspective. I don't know about you.

For me, I think, you know, we touched on a lot of topics. You can actually talk to her. You can have this conversation together, and I will watch it, witness it, rather than you're actually reporting it to me. Okay. Because I'm not sure you've had that conversation. No, I don't know that we've,

I haven't really even thought about that specific question that you asked us either. So I think for us together, like to really kind of break down and simplify what it is that you need from me and it helped me a ton. I haven't necessarily been the best at following those directions over these last couple of years, but it's definitely helped streamline things in my head on how to connect with you. As far as the other two topics, just connecting the two, connecting my own childhood with what my kids went through and with the aftermath of suicide. If nothing else, it helped

me to have some more compassion for the kids and what they're going through. I think I might have said in the session that you would think I would have more compassion when people are struggling, and I ended up not having compassion. Say more. One of my children was struggling with their own suicidal ideations. And so I'm dealing with that on a personal level and thinking about what's going to happen and what do we do. And then I go to work and I have a colleague, a co-worker who's a first-time father. He's got a newborn baby and the baby had pink eye. And so my colleague was carrying on about how horrible it is to have pink eye for the baby. And I couldn't have compassion for him in that moment

because we were comparing life and death to pink eye. And I think it's been eye-opening for me to recognize that, that I need to let him be in the space that he's in, even though it's very trivial from my perspective. The voice that has no compassion, how does it speak, that voice? It's a contemptuous voice? Sometimes it would be, that's really dumb. That's stupid.

Or if it is something serious, sometimes I'll think, well, that's life. That's what happens in this world and so there's a part of me that knows that that's maybe not good to not have compassion and there's another part of me that wrestles with is what we struggle with and why we have anxiety or depression or we seek counsel is it because of unmet expectations and is the unmet expectations because we're in denial that death happens or that bad things happen? And so is that what leads to trauma? Because we expect nothing to happen, and then when it does, we don't know how to process. So I don't know. I don't know whether what is going on in my head is a good thing or a bad thing when I think those things.

I'm sure your wife has an opinion about that. Probably not. That's an understatement. Sometimes I wonder if he has a pulse. Does he feel anything? But recently, I don't know if it was a few months ago, a former colleague of his passed away to suicide. And I saw a side of him that I've never seen. The level of compassion that he had for the spouse that was left behind with four children, right?

And they were similar ages that his were when his former wife passed away. I was heartbroken for what he was experiencing, but I was also glad to see him grieving and having compassion and seeing that pulse alive in him. Because in the way he responded in that moment, he gathered his peers together to help this family. It was really incredible. And so I know he's capable of it. As he just said, when it's life and death, it all comes pouring out. And this is a very clear example of life and death. So there is no, what do you have to complain about?

You really want something to complain about? Let me show you. When we got the news of what happened, I had multiple people that reached out to me that I haven't talked to in maybe 10 years that basically called me to say, I'm really sorry, but when your wife died, I really wanted to call, but I didn't know what to say. And so I just didn't. And they were calling to ask for forgiveness, you know, that they didn't reach out to me. And, but it was after...

How was that for you? Well, I mean, it stirs up some emotions in me right now as I talk about it. Right, but if you were not cleansing your throat... Uh-huh. Do I do that? Was I doing that a lot? Yes, that instantly says, I'm feeling something here. And so I'm going to help you turn that clothes clearing into expressing what the feeling actually is.

Well. Or was. Yeah. So initially just getting those phone calls, it felt good. It felt validating that people actually were thinking about me because honestly I don't remember a whole lot of conversation from many people. So at the time I felt very alone. All right, stop for one sec.

Okay. Now breathe. Because you've just described an entire experience, an entire narrative, a whole phase of your life where your wife commits suicide, you have four kids, you don't know where to turn. Where does one begin?

And nobody calls. Yeah. And you're so used to doing everything alone that you don't even realize that maybe you shouldn't have to do it all alone. Yeah. You just feel alone. Let that sink. I think in the moment you don't even, when I was in that moment and you're dealing with the logistics after death, there's a lot that's happening.

And so I don't know that I was even really dwelling on the fact that no one was calling. It wasn't until afterwards that you start to think, where were people? My parents came, and they really helped out a lot. But I anticipated more. And again, it's not something you think about in the moment. You're getting phone calls from insurance, and you're trying to deal with bank accounts. You know, one of the, I've told my wife that one of the hardest calls I ever received was shortly afterwards, I get a phone call from the organ donation people. And it was a brutal phone call

because to be a little gruesome, you're talking about carving up your loved one. When that phone call comes, it's heavy. There's no one to take that call but you. And it's not a conversation that you talk about. But even afterwards, I almost thought, I think I want to take my name off the registry because I don't want my kids or my wife to have to deal with that phone call you know and so there's a lot of those kinds of things that happen and when all that dust settles that's when you start to think how come nobody nobody reached out? In a sense, you kind of think, did I have friends? You know? So to get those phone calls, you know, 10 years later

and find out that I really did, but in their own way, they were scared. They didn't, you know, I think we, there's throat clearing again, I'm sorry. You know, like I said earlier, that death is inevitable. Death is a part of our life. Wait, wait, one second, one second. Don't use words to just wash over everything. Yeah.

You just were right there. i even have friends where is everybody and in that moment you realize they just didn't know what to say how is all of this for you uh honestly in that moment i it was empowering for me because the light went on in my head and i thought this was my story but it doesn't have to be this other spouse's story and I so I said all right we're gonna I'll put something together and I thought if nobody knows what to talk about and what to say after a death but really after a suicide then let's have the conversation let's talk about what are the good things to say and or the helpful things to say and what are the really not helpful things to say.

What's one thing that you wished someone had told you back then? There was one guy that was a co-worker of mine. What he did for me was better than anything else that anyone could have done. And I bumped into him as we were going in, I think, to Target, and his family was coming out. We were getting ready to travel to a different state for the funeral. And I just saw him in front of the store,

and he let me just wrap my arms around him and cry. I don't think what he said. I don't think he said anything. He might have said, I'm sorry. But I think all he said was, I heard what happened. And that was it. And there was more healing in that moment to me than fumbling around with what's the proper word to say. I think he just let me be vulnerable with him.

And he wasn't embarrassed that we were in public, and then we walked away. And so, it doesn't come, it's not about words. It's about just being present. And I guess really what he did was he acknowledged what happened, and he didn't try to gloss over it. It's just not helpful. It feels very shallow sometimes when you say the typical platitudes of, well, they're in a better place or whatever. And have you been able to let your kids lean on you like that? Collapse while you hold them up, while you buttress. Yes and no. I have done that. I could have done it more,

but I have been doing that more lately than early on. I think I told you that one of my kids was struggling with suicidal ideations, and I just got angry because all I could think of was, we've already been through this. Almost like, how could you do this again? To me? Yeah. Yeah. Like, I can't go through this again. And thankfully, she was there to step into the gap for me and bring that compassion that I couldn't bring.

But then, you know, recently we had another child struggle, and, you know, I was able to get on a plane and fly back immediately and, you know, be there. That is very special. I think it was probably one of the most, now I'm going to cry. By the way, he has a pulse. Yes, he does. Him getting on that plane, well, actually it was a train.

He had to get on the train to go get to the plane. That moment was, for all that they've gone through together, the two of them for me was really powerful to me it was a healing moment for their relationship and I mean who doesn't want their dad to come rescue them but the main thing is that you didn't freeze yeah no I didn't you didn't freeze. Yeah. No, I didn't. You didn't freeze neither in terror nor in rage. You got up and you just knew exactly what to do and you did it. Yes.

You know. How do you talk about the mother of your children, with your children, both of you? Oftentimes I don't. Yeah. You don't talk about her? Mm-mm. And they have learned not to talk about her with you either? No.

The younger ones don't really remember her, and so it doesn't it doesn't come up I'm not not miss I don't believe that it's because they feel like it's an it's a taboo topic because when questions do arise I engage I'm not afraid to talk about her but but I don't ever think to initiate conversations recently I don't even remember the conversation but I was in the car with our youngest, who at the time was 22 months when her biological mom passed. And I said, do you have quite a beautiful distinction just now? Biological mom? Is that what you mean? Yes.

Oh. Yes. Because what you're saying is there is a mother here yes there is a person who is doing the role of the mother and that is me and i just said the mother of the kids as in the mother the woman who brought the children to the world and you made a distinction between that and the woman who mothers them. And that's a very crucial distinction to make. Well, I think about her all the time. And I think about her, gosh, it depends on the kid, what's going on.

But with our youngest right now, she's looking more and more like her biological mother. And I said to her, do you have questions? Do you ever want to know? I said, I can't tell you the stories, but we can always ask and find out. And she said, I do sometimes, but it never feels like the right time to ask. And I said, I could understand that, that you wouldn't know. She goes, I think about her, but I don't know what to think. It's just that somebody you know you'll always love,

you just don't know who they are. And I said, that has to be confusing sometimes, but I also understand that intrinsic feeling within you. She will always be a part of you. She gave you life. Therefore, you'll never stop thinking about this person. And so I just reminded her she could always ask. And then it just goes on.

It's nothing ever any dramatics or big deal. Even tonight you had a conversation with the older kids about her, right? Yeah. To go back to your question of do I talk, the two older kids are the ones that remember her better. They were 12 and 10 when she died. And so they have memories. And, you know, it's interesting because the two of them now live near each other

and they've actually grown a lot closer together, almost like they're discovering that they have a trauma bond. And so they get together and kind of talk about things. And I can tell by when they relay these stories to me that they're in their own mind trying to piece together the fragmented memories that they have. And they'll occasionally share that with me, and we'll talk through it. But from the very beginning, I've told the kids, I never wanted to schedule grief. I didn't want to schedule days to memorialize, because pretty soon you have an excuse just about at least once a month. So you have birthdays and the death date and Christmas and Easter and Thanksgiving, whatever it is, to remind you. And so I wasn't going to set about doing that to say, today's the day we have to do this. But I also told them, I want you guys to have the freedom that it could be a random day of the week that just suddenly the grief hits you and it overwhelms you.

I said, well, we'll stop what we're doing and we will press into that. But maybe I should have scheduled it just at random times because there is something about the ritual of... So, you know, you have four of them and it's not one size fits all it doesn't have to be about grief you know you remind me or there was a time once with your mom that this and that so that she's just a person that you can chit-chat about, actually, not just grieve. She's a presence, and that presence is not an aura or a secret or a hidden something. It just is there, and it's accessible. And she used to cook this dish, and that pot she brought me. And when I was dating your mother, dad, you know, oh, your grandfather or grandparents' dad.

It's, on the one hand, more ordinary. It's not ominous. Memories, if you don't have memories, everybody's interested in their origin story. You're right. It does not... But that doesn't mean that you did anything wrong. It just means that you can expand this.

Yes. Because what happens is that because you are silent, your very intuitive, sensitive wife here starts to do what she often does, which is she picks up the burden. And she starts to feel responsible that she needs to fill the gap. That's very true. So I don't want this to sound like I'm making excuses, but I think it gets more complicated for me in how I don't, I'll be honest, I don't really want to remember. Because it's more than the grief of suicide. Of course. It's every time you came home and you didn't know what

condition you were going to find her in. It's what it's like to live with an addict. It's what it's like to live with a person who is promiscuous and you have no idea in which bed she currently is or if it's even a bed and all of those things so it's not the fact that they don't have memories it's the fact that you don't want to go back to your memories that's true it's not only do i not want to go back i also realizing after she was gone there were so many years that was a lie that I honestly don't know what memories are real and what aren't. Again, I don't think of it in terms of I'm trying to avoid it as much as it's almost impossible to navigate. And I just don't, I guess. Just join us. You have something to say about this?

I'm just thinking about maybe the things that seem, things I can't ever answer. I don't know. What was her favorite color? What was she like as a teenager? Because that's when you started dating her. You know, have three of the, you've got almost a fourth one that as a teenager? Because that's when you started dating her. And you now have three of the, you've got almost a fourth one that's a teenager.

And so those little things of just being able to share those moments with the kids, I think is important for them to just take hold of somebody that gave them life. And even for me, because there was a life before me that created these children. It's not about so much the actions of what she did or didn't do. It's just who she was.

But I guess that's where the struggle is, is I don't know who she was. I don't know how far back the lies go. I don't know how, was it just the last couple of years or was it the whole time? And I don't know. But that is less for your young kids anyway. Right.

That's yours to sit with. For them, it's sometimes exactly as simple as her favorite color. What did she like to eat? What did you guys do when you were dating? How did you meet? Why did you pick her? Stuff like that. In a way, by answering or by being in conversation with your kids about more trivial stuff sometimes, it allows you to also not just think about the betrayals,

the duplicity, the secrets. But their reality is different from yours. What the little ones want to know, they want to know themselves. And in knowing more about her, they figure out a few more things about themselves. I had one question in my mind. I said, oh, I would love to talk with them, which was that I remember when you came, you said that the word you had written for that year was revive,

and that you felt that you had done a fair amount of suffering, of healing, of surviving, of putting the pieces together of what we ended up calling in a metaphor the ER room, and that you want to start to live and to be more greedy with life. And I just was curious, did you do that? We've definitely had the moments. Moving overseas has given us opportunities to get away, just the two of us. I think one of my favorite moments most recently was

when I had gone into London for the day and I texted him, do you want to just come meet me in the city? And he's like, sure. And it was the summertime here in London during the pandemic when we were finally able to go out. And it just felt alive and vibrant and with a pulse. And I was sitting outside this little Italian cafe and just waiting and just seeing him kind of walk through the crowd and thinking, when I would dream about who I would meet, I would always think I would meet my future spouse in a cafe in Europe or somewhere really romantic.

And the way we met wasn't necessarily romantic. But then in these moments, I feel like it is exactly what I ever dreamt of, but it's my reality. And we're just sitting there at the table across from each other with everyone else, and we're not parents. We're not – it's just, I love those moments. And you probably don't think anything of them. I don't know.

But for me, I'm very aware of how much I'm just loving it. Wait, one second, one second. You're going to let this go by? Me? Is it? Like, you don't make any of this? This means nothing to you? It's huge for me, but...

No, I definitely enjoyed that. I know that she's been thinking of those kinds of moments in ways I never did, but I still love it. I still get something out of it. I still love hopping on a train and being spontaneous. you're in London. We're not in the suburbs. We're in London. This is their life. And Anna Quinlan has this beautiful quote and talks about the glittering mica and the long stretches of gray cement. And those are those, for me, those are those moments, those pearls. And it draws us out of those roles.

And it's playful. It's delight. It's getting to know each other. It's sharing stories. It's just that connection. To me, these types of moments are among the most exquisite parts of a relationship. They are the things that truly cement people. You know, there is a view that just sometimes says sharing the vicissitudes of life together, going through the struggles of life together, mourning together, suffering together,

the things that really bind us. And they're there too. But those moments when you're able to transcend the limits of reality, when you are completely focused on each other, curious that this person who is next to you is still somewhat mysterious and elusive and there's still something to learn about them. You know, she's the poet of the house. She creates these scenes. You are in that state that you said, now we want to live. Now we want to feel not just that we are surviving, but that we are

alive. I have this memory of actually when I lived in Manhattan of going on a date and I hadn't lived there long. A date with him or I did? crazy. And I was so excited to see the city because the only way I could understand my sense of direction was by walking because I would come out of the subway and think, where am I? And I remember walking, I think we were over in the promenade in Brooklyn, seeing the Brooklyn Bridge and thinking, I don't even know this person. And I'm having this incredibly romantic moment. And I remember telling myself in that moment, I never wanted to have these experiences again with someone I didn't want to experience it with. And so years later, working as a travel guide, I've seen incredible places. I've never seen the Sistine Chapel, and I've taken so many people to Rome, to the Vatican, because I've waited to do these things with whoever that future person would be.

Have you taken him? We've checked off quite a few things on my list. Not everything. The line was way too long to get to the Sistine Chapel. So we did other things, but we will get back there. But you're not just showing him the site. You're sharing a part of you through the site. Yes.

You know that, right? Me or her? Yeah, we know that. We know that. And what are the ways that you share parts of you? I don't know why you've got to ask these kinds of questions um oh i don't know as they say in french and they feel professional a professional bias or something yeah you know as i'm i don't want to be a deadly downer um but

as i'm listening to this and i'm thinking about your initial question of, did we revive? And I'm thinking about myself and I don't know that I did for me. Throughout my life, I've always been a creative person, but I don't have any creativity anymore, it feels like. It feels like that part of my mind has kind of died which the romantic part the creative part um and it has been and in fact the last couple of years were really i wasn't in a good place i think it was a convergence of finally the kids didn't need me to support them and i and so that uh imagery of you put the mask on yourself, but then you put it on your kids. Well, I really didn't do that. I went and masked the kids.

And so now I get to the point where I'm just left with me. And it's converging on, I don't know, midlife crisis, 40s, being stuck at a job that I'm so tired of being in, and feeling like there's no escape, and I'm just trudging along. And all of that's compounding, and I'm not... She's making moves vertically. She's moving in a positive direction she is reviving and i'm kind of a a dragnet holding things down a little bit and and to her credit she's not gotten bogged down and she's continued to persevere um i mean there's a moment where you weren't sure if you wanted us even.

That, for me, was a pretty low point. But how did you get there? I don't know. I think... You're stuck. Yeah. I was thinking about this before we had this call and I think a good analogy might be like I was so I've been so stuck inward that it's almost like having

an emotional affair with yourself you know where like my mindset was not on her in ways that it should have been because I was so stuck, you know? Right. So tell me if this resonates with you. That's kind of how I'm receiving this is there were six years about where I couldn't really think about much. I had to just function and do and be responsible. And I was often enough in a panic that I didn't even have the bandwidth

to even think, do I want any of this? I have no choice. And on occasion, I just say, I can't take one more thing. But they keep coming. What kind of life is this? And she wants to be romantic and she wants to experience depth and she wants to connect. And on occasion, I'm blessed that I have somebody who wants that

because two like me would be really a basement life and i'm stuck because on some level i haven't had a chance to really think about myself you know when you don't grow when a living organism doesn't grow, it fossilizes. For a while, you had so much change that you felt chaotic because so much was happening. Then nothing's happening. So I start to go and feel slightly numb, depressed, lifeless, listless, no energy, etc. The opposite of creativity. Creativity is an active engagement with the unknown. It's risk-taking, it's curiosity, it's exploration, it's discovery, it's mystery, it's all of that he has this way of rise raising his eyebrow sometimes

it means what the hell are you talking about and sometimes it mean she got it i've heard this i never get to see it myself but yeah i've heard that i know it very well like i talk and i watch your eyebrows they tell me on track off track yeah yeah you were very much on track i think you nailed it um i think it's been all of that i've been worried about myself in the sense that what has happened i am a creative person but i'm not now what do you mean when you say that where is your spark in the past i used to be able to i would be able to come home and read and write and create. I don't know, I'm saying that word a lot. Imagine.

Yeah, imagine is a great word. Just to be imaginative again. And I can't seem to access that part of myself. First time ever? Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Do you have a social life? Do you have have friends do you have other people you talk to

and do things with well 2020 has made that hard we haven't been able to really legally do that right but i did hear that you didn't say this is a pandemic development. That's true, yeah. There's an atrophy. That's a great word. A generalized atrophy. That is a really good word, yes. How many close people do you have around you there? For me personally?

Could you bring four people? Could you bring four close people together? We could bring four people here. No, we, you. Me? No, no. The closest friends that I have are back in the States. And so we do stay in touch. I'm not talking local. I really am not talking local. Then yes, then I do have, i do have four friends that i could reach out to okay do you want to do something daring uh yes i mean i will only share it with you if you're otherwise i don't waste my precious yes yes i'll do something daring. Okay. It's not flushed out, but this is what I'm imagining.

You're going to bring four people together. If it's Zoom, it's Zoom. Or wherever online. That you like, that you think you can talk to, that get it. That are creative, problem solvers of the existential sort. And you're going to create a little council of friends. You're just going to say, I needed to bring together people I trust and respect because I have some questions. This is what's been troubling me. I used to be in high pressure, high action mode, so I didn't have much time to think or to

think. I was in crisis mode much of the time too. And now it's quiet. And it's quiet inside too. And I wanted to invite you into a conversation with me about this. I can do that. Good. Have fun. It. Have fun.

It would be fun. First of all, people love to be invited in a way like this because they suddenly realize they're important, they matter, you care about them, and they love to help. And they've been there. Variations on the same theme, each one a piece. Well, and just like you said, maybe some people didn't know how to be there for you and you didn't know how to ask for this help 10 years ago,

but here you are now. You got it. That's what I'm doing. And that may lead to all kinds of trips, visits, basketball playing, music sharing, movie watching, walks, philosophy seminars, you name it. But you have got to go back where the hinge snapped off. And the act itself of going to fetch a group of people who are important to you and surrounding yourself with them and inviting them to be there for you is the opposite of your origin story. Yes, it is. There is something about just being in the presence of others that sharpens one another.

I mean, it's almost like the collaboration that you hear about with musicians in the recording studio. And there's the songwriter who's brought in, I don't know, some piano player to play the part that he's got in his head. But the piano player comes in and he plays a line and it's different than what the original songwriter thought of. But it's better. And maybe there's a banter back and forth, and ultimately you end up with a beautiful song, with a song that's better than what you started with that was in your head. And so that's what I imagine getting these group of friends together.

That's what I hope to achieve, is that working out the parts of the song. Beautiful. Beautiful. Especially, interestingly, our first session ended with a song you know you love? Yes. Your sweet conversation That brings this sensation Let it go Oh no It's just a nearness I'm nervous in my voice. A nearness. A nearness. I'm nervous in my voice.

I love you. This was a follow-up episode of Where Should We Begin? To hear their original session, just search for A Romantic Revival on Spotify. Esther Perel is the author of Mating in Captivity and the State of Affairs, and also the host of the podcast, How's Work? To apply with your partner for a session for the podcast, or for show notes on each episode, go to whereshouldwebegin.esterperel.com. Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel is produced by Magnificent Noise,

for Gimlet and Esther Perel Productions. Our production staff includes Eric Newsom, Eva Walchover, Destry Sibley, Hyweta Gatana, and Julia Natt. Recorded by Noriko Okabe, Kristen Muller is our engineer. Original music and additional production by Paul Schneider. And the executive producers of Where Should We Begin are Esther Perel and Jesse Baker. We would also like to thank Lydia Polgreen, Colin Campbell, Clara Sankey, Ian Kerner,

Alma, Courtney Hamilton, Nick Oxenhorn, and Jack Saul.