Where Should We Begin? with Esther Perel - You Can Be Right, Or You Can Be Married.

Episode Date: December 11, 2023

This is a classic session, from the first season of Where Should We Begin?. They’ve been together for more than a decade, but this isn’t the first time they’ve separated. Stuck in a cycle of explosive escalations, a husband and wife want to make it work but can’t break their habit of going for the emotional jugular. Esther encourages them to start their conversations differently. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

The drama and the chaos was very interesting at the beginning and very intoxicating, but over the years it's just, it's become detrimental. What you are about to hear is a classic session of Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel. None of the voices in this series are ongoing patients of Esther Perel's, and each episode is a one-time counseling session. For the purposes of maintaining confidentiality, names and some identifiable characteristics have been removed, but their voices and their stories are real. At the time when I meet this couple,

they have been separated for a few months. But this is not the first time they're separating. Their relationship has probably been a back and forth between heaven and hell. We've always had a volatile, passionate relationship. I always said that we love each other as much as we can hate each other. Moments of passion, deep connection, and then followed by high conflict, negative escalations, massive crescendo.

For some reason, I'm on the defensive when I'm hurt. And then I do shitty things and I feel even worse. And I say stupid shit. Fueled by reactivity much more than by reflectiveness The person saw I had a tendency to push buttons really well. And our conversations just can't get past hurting each other. And then the only solution to lessen the intensity is to take a break. It's like he just can't be here, he can't be around the energy, he just kind of snaps. And I don't know if it's a feeling of suffocating or what, it doesn't matter. And so they are caught in this repetitive, negative escalations that are quite rigid,

quite repetitive, and from which they feel they have no exit except to leave each time. Whenever one of us wants it, we both know that we can't keep. We feel insane. And that is where I meet them. This is Where Should We Begin? We feel insane. And that is where I meet them.

This is Where Should We Begin with Astaire Perel. If I was to do a pulse check now... I'd say it's about the same in my department. Still a lot of behavioral issues between us. We both still fall into the same habits. Of? Not respecting one another. Forgetting how to manage our own emotions when we speak. Not receiving properly or empathetically.

Which manifests as? Anger, frustration, harsh words. I have a safe place to go to now so that we can separate and actually not have to go through that again. I have my own apartment. She has the house. And what is your involvement with the family?

I do my best to... You have four women there, right? Yes. Your wife, your daughter... And the other two daughters. And then your daughters that you have together. That's a lot of female... It is. There's a lot being immersed in it too. What's that like for you? I mean, how do you you manage your involvement with the family? I just do you know my duty. I do whatever cooking I can. I come, I watch the kids

while she's out of town. I try to... I'm working on trying to live a healthy lifestyle. I'm not there yet. I'm still a little distracted. I have some degrees of depression. So I always feel like I've done something wrong at all times. You have people around you? No. No, I'm pretty isolated. How come? I don't know if it's by design or just my nature.

I don't really like people. Well. Maybe a couple. You have. Yeah. You're still dating your friend? Yes, I am. In this period of separation, they are both seeing other people.

And this has only added more fuel to the fire. So that's some companionship and... Not really. It's a little less isolating. It's a little fog light in the distance at times. And you have siblings? I do. We don't really get to talk much. You have no contact? Not no contact. Very limited.

I was basically an only child because my father had two children with another mother. I was an only child with my father had two children with another mother. I was an only child with my mother. We moved around a lot. I never got a chance to build any long-term relationships with any friends. I have no old friends really. I'm used to isolation. I'm used to being on my own. You're used to it. Is that what you like? I don't know any different really. I know when I've been in crowds of people for any extended period you like? I don't know any different really.

I know when I've been in crowds of people for any extended period of time, I don't really like it. I'm not comfortable. And when we met, he had been estranged from his daughter for two years at that point. So he had left his hometown and I said, I'm going to marry that guy. You said? Mm-hmm. And then... You seem to know what you want.

I'm pretty. I do. And quickly. I know. I know. I always said that he reminded me of a beaten dog when we first met. And everything in terms of interaction and, you know, coming on too strong. You know, I felt like I had my hand out.

No sudden movements. No big noises. Because he was adamant that women were awful, that they led to hurt, that it was, I guess that we were all sort of Jezebels, for lack of a better word. And I remember saying to him, because he said, all I care about is getting my daughter back and getting back into her life. And I said, so why don't you build a life to offer her when you see her again? Instead of wandering, not putting down any roots, not letting people get close to you, why don't you build something for her? And over, you know, a couple of months, he settled into it.

And then I got pregnant. Why did you lose touch with your daughter? It was not a healthy relationship with her mother. She moved around a lot. She liked to withhold visitation if I wasn't going to be with her mother. She moved around a lot. She liked to withhold visitation if I wasn't going to be with her and I just got tired of chasing her around and following her, moving after her, trying to stay close and I just had to draw a line because it was killing me. The torment of being close and then

having her taken away and being close and having her taken away, I had to stop it. So I stopped and I just left my situation with her. It was a sad time. Pretty scarring. Really painful. Lot of drinking, lot of blackouts. It was horrible. But then my daughter reached out, so...

We're repairing the damage still and building new relationship. And she felt comfortable enough to come live with me for the first time at 22. But if I hear you well, much of what happens in your life is closeness, cut off, explosion. Oh, it's a definite pattern. Retreat, reconnecting. Yeah. That is pretty much the hallmark of your relationship.

It's always an all or nothing and an either or on everything. Pretty much. So the subject matter doesn't really make a difference. You have a pattern, and the pattern is, I'll drill you down, or you drill me down. I lose me, or I lose you. All or nothing. In the same way that you knew from day one you wanted him.

It's an all or nothing. It goes in the good side, is what I'm trying to say. We're just a few minutes into the session, but it also becomes clear that he's not the only one who has lived as a survivor. So does she. I've always been very all or nothing. Partially, I think just because of the way my attention grabs onto things.

If it doesn't interest me, it's gone. And the drama and the chaos was very interesting at the beginning and very intoxicating. But over the years, it's become detrimental. I don't know. What did you think? You see the broken or the beaten dog, and you say, I'm going to give this man a life. I'm going to have him want to get up in the morning.

I'm going to domesticate the lion inside. I'm going to give him a raison d'être, I'm gonna bring joy to him, I'm gonna show him love, I'm gonna show him that life is worth living. That's a grandiose plan. I know. Sometimes when a person doesn't feel worthy of love, they replace love with being needed.

If he can't be loved, I will be needed. And so she found him at a moment when he was desperate and desolate. And as long as she could rescue him, she felt worthy. She had a project, and the project was the rehabilitation of him. Where did that project come from in you? Well, from the time I can remember, the message was, you're pretty and you're dumb. Not for my parents. I had a very distorted view of myself. I knew from the time I was about ten years old, I'm going to say,

that there was something quote-unquote wrong with me. That I shouldn't feel the amount of overwhelming sadness and responsibility and worry that I did. I knew there was something wrong with the way everybody else seemed to see me and the way I saw myself, which was just ugly, ugly, ugly, ugly. The self-doubt.

When you hurt him, can you relate to the fact that he's hurt or do you get into a defense about your intentions? At this moment, I wish I had led her into her sadness and finally given her the permission to feel what she feels.

Because what she's done is she found a man who felt massive sadness. She found somebody else who carried the feelings that were forbidden to her. And then set out to rescue him. And I wished that I would have opened the door for her to enter into places that she systematically avoids. And these are the mistakes that I make sometimes and that I can only hear when I listen to the session again. I think what sometimes happens is that when I sit with somebody who's afraid, I too can get afraid.

And so we avoid it together. The self-doubt. When you hurt him, can you relate to the fact that he's hurt or do you get into a defense about your intentions? I think I'm better now at understanding that he's hurt and not defending myself. Again, understanding that what I've said has maybe not been said properly, or at least being able to see that it could hurt. It's as if you were to cook something, and he says that's very salty,

and you say, I didn't put much salt. Who cares if you put or didn't put much salt. Who cares if you put or didn't put much salt? If it's salty to him, it's salty to him. Right? If he experiences what you say as hurtful, how you meant it, what you meant, it's irrelevant. But then you have to be able to say I hurt you without asking yourself what does that mean about me I'm not that kind of a person I'm not a person who

hurts since I don't want to see myself as a person who hurts I can never say I'm sorry that I hurt you you're smiling pretty accurate huh that's accurate. Put it in your own words. I don't think she is better at stopping. I still get hurt and then I'm, for some reason I'm on the defensive when I'm hurt because she starts attacking. So I'm in a position of being hurt and I'm on the defense. And then I do shitty things and I feel even worse. And I say stupid shit. Then I'm an even bigger asshole.

Put myself in a corner. It's hard to get out. What they both emphasize at first is how stuck they feel in these escalations in which they know exactly how to trigger the other. And if the other person hurts them, what they miss is to say the natural thing, which is, ouch, that hurt. But instead what they'll do is attack, attack. And we are stuck in a dance of hostile dependency, we call it.

The only reason I am the way I am is because of you. And if you were different, I wouldn't be doing this. But because you're not changing, I keep on doing worse. And I feel terrible about myself and how I react. But I feel like you set me up to it. This is now the flip side of where they began when she was his main source of social connection. You paired up with a woman who often serves as a bridge for you with the rest of humanity. Yeah. But when you only use one well, it dries up.

Yeah, I learned that. We learned that. So, are you able to dig other wells? I'm working on it. Yeah. He wants to do that by having other relationships. And therapy. But when you mean other relationships, you're looking at... Romantic. Sexual.

If we're talking about the social aspect, yes. He said that he only wants to hang out with people that he wants to have sex with. That's who he's interested in being friends with. And I have a hard time with that. I believe my word was intimate, but... I want intimacy with others. Beautiful women.

Sure, your words. Women that you're attracted to, is that better? Why you shake your head? I don't like men. That's basically my criteria for a relationship. I don't want to hang out with men. I don't want to hear what they have to say. But that's not what she's talking about. That means I've chosen to befriend women and I'd prefer to have women that I want to be

intimate with. I don't want to waste time, small talk. I don't have enough time to actually... But that's not what she's talking about. I don't... I think that's not what she's talking about either. I think that's exactly what she's talking about. The fact that I want to be with women and other women. And that's how I want to foster my relationships. It's either intimacy or sex. Or a combination of the two. The way you just answered is the beginning of an escalation. You answer from a place in which you lay your

foot down and there is no conversation possible with you at that moment. It immediately invites a battle. Now, I could imagine the same thing happening the other way around. It just happens to be you who showed me the way this starts. Also, in her words, I heard accusation. So I guess I responded. I heard fear. Did you? Yeah.

When I say that I heard fear, I'm well aware that there was accusation as well. But I can see how a feeling, and particularly a feeling that conjures up vulnerability, is instantly turned into an attack. What better way to hide my vulnerability than to attack you? And after many years of this, it goes very fast. Anybody who takes on that kind of a project, where she wants to be so central to everything,

it is obvious that the minute she's replaced for anything, by the way, with somebody else, she will feel threatened. Well, I'd like to take the fear out of it for her, if I could. I don't know if you can, but I certainly know that if you do what you began to do, you're off track. That only reinforces it right away. For every sentence that you're going to make, her anxiety level is just going to climb until she will then start to provoke you because

if she provokes you then she's got you in the ring. Now you're involved with her. Hostile and intimate. And then the cycle will... I just want to feel like it's safe for me to say what I'm feeling. And even if it's ugly sometimes, whether about somebody else or myself, I just want to feel like I can express it and the response will be, that might be ugly and I don't like that you said that, but it's okay. I'm not going anywhere we can talk about it I want to be able to tell him I'm afraid but you didn't tell him you're afraid so

he didn't get it but it's also because you didn't say it. If you said I'm afraid, could you imagine saying something that is more reassuring? I don't want to leave you. I don't want to end this. Okay. And do you ever say it like that when she says... Many times. But when? Before it escalates. Good. After it escalates, after it escalates, when we're not yelling at each other, when we are yelling at each other. It's a mantra that I say and I repeat it.

Right. But your mantra is, you ain't gonna suffocate me. The minute she said, you are intimate with other women and you brought down your flags, you were basically making a manifesto about nobody's locking me up I'm a free bird I do have my responsibility and my desire to be in this obligatory relationship

where I have to provide for us I want to do do that. I'm here. I've been here. No, I know that neither of you want this to end, and I know that neither of you want to go anywhere. I just know that if you start to feel held, tied up, that doesn't go well with you. And if she starts to feel unbound and unprotected, that doesn't go well with her. And those are the subtexts from which a lot of other stuff springs. Yeah. You know, the good thing in this dance is that just about every step you make could be improved upon.

That gives you a lot of options. So imagine instead of first beginning with the place where what he does rubs you wrong, you actually begin with the place where you notice something that he has been doing that is good for him and for everybody else maybe. You start with that, you get a different response, the whole dance goes differently. Just you understand the way this works, it's great, it's like music. Every note that you change gets to change the entire composition. You went directly for the hardest place.

And you already knew that you're going to get a defensive rant. And if I wasn't here now or we weren't here now, you do your usual. So, take your freedom and start differently. Turn to him, talk to him. Sorry. For what? Because he's giggling. I'm just laughing.

Why not? The rest of the time you guys take yourselves so goddamn seriously. You know, it's okay. It's totally contrived what we're doing. But, you know, the other stuff is so damn absurd that I'd rather you be contrived than stuck. Yeah. It's not enough to show people the multiple ways that they can derail.

You have to give them the opportunity to experience a moment of transformation. My therapy is experiential and transformational, but it doesn't always work. And I tried various times with them to create what we call in our language an enactment, the experience of being vulnerable with each other, of being able to respond empathically, of being able to feel safe in acknowledging one's own struggles. And each time they would come close, one of them would trip up the other. I just knew it may not happen the first time. So where do I start? My fears?

If that's where it starts, yeah. It's actually quite simple, right? It scares me. See, if you don't worry about how legitimate your fear is, then you can feel it more, legitimately. I'm not going to judge your feelings. I'm not going to react to your feelings. I'm just, I'm afraid that you're not going to be there when I need you. And then I think, well, I'll just... I don't want to be indebted to you for anything.

I don't want to ask you for help because I don't want you to say no. And then I feel like crap because I've made myself vulnerable by asking for help and been told no. So I would rather just find other ways to do it and not have to rely on you. I need you. I don't want to need you.

I desperately want to ask, but I don't want to be told no. So I don't ask, and then I get angry. And then when I finally ask, I ask in such a way that guarantees that you will say no. I know all this about you. I've heard it. I've heard you say it. I hear you say it now. I'd like to be able to take the fear out of it for you. Of everything.

Your self-loathing, your image, your resentment at having to need someone else. I wish it wasn't there. How can I help you get there? After we did a few rounds of creating a space for a safe communication between them where she could speak

to her fear and he could respond, I wanted to see if there was something that they could each do that would introduce some change, some novelty

into a sequence and a series of patterns that had become so defeating for them. If I asked you, what are two or three areas of life where you could show up better in relation to your wife? Not to your family, to your wife. Say yes more to what she wants to do, whether it's recreationally or... My instant response is usually no,

because it sounds boring to me or I'm not interested, but... And you stick or you know I'm still flexible it's just initially it's no I'm not interested but being more open to it right away and not just saying the first thing that comes to mind that's number one so she says let's go to the museum no let's go... To the museum. No. Let's go for a walk. Let's go to a movie. No. You know that where she comes from, she doesn't just hear, ah, the movie. It's loaded. She hears, ah, you.

Dumb idea. That's, yeah. I know that's what I'm doing. That's not my intention, but that doesn't matter. Because saying no is my way of holding on to myself by the way. I don't think it goes that deep. No? No. What do you think it is? I think it. I immediately go through what's involved in doing it and I'm a lazy bastard so I reject it. Uh-huh. Good. I like your bastardly honesty. Okay, area two.

I suppose just do things instead of waiting to be asked on some occasions. Like what? Any kind of housework that he's doing or like arrange it myself. She's usually the coordinator of all things at home. How often during a week will you go to her and say, how can I help? At least once a week I ask her, what can I do to help this? Is there anything else I can do? I mean, that's given our current circumstances.

When I was there, it was all the time I felt I thought about that the other day that was something that I came up with that would be so simple it said can you answer yes without going into the why do I have to tell you no absolutely the garbage can go out the dog can be walked that would help this would help there are so many things good Good. That's it. Short. There's no need for a long conversation about it. Doable? I have asked, and I don't get an answer.

It's something to work on, definitely. It's very simple. You take a sheet together. You write on there the 15 main ones. Well, we tried making a chore chart, but she would not get involved with it. I don't want the chore chart. Because we have kids that we need to teach discipline and help with the house chores, and then we had it all laid out, but one...

she just wasn't interested, and it broke down. So it's not working. Now, there's a mishmash of people who may do things occasionally, and they have to be constantly supervised and reminded to do these things. Whereas when it was written down on the board with chalk and check marks...

What's the problem with that? It doesn't... I finally took this stupid thing down because I was sick of looking at it and it was mocking me because I do all of those things on that chart. Everybody walks by the chart every day. Nobody was doing it. Because you weren't participating. I don't want to have to police my children.

You don't. It's written down. No sooner do they come up with a good idea that they launch into blame and attack mode again. How to help them think together about solving a problem rather than treating each other as the problem becomes my central concern. It's like you can be right or married. With this, you will be right, but you will be alone.

And it's never difficult to be right and alone. So, I suggest you say it didn't work well, we need to make this work better. Rather than, I'm not doing this. Yeah, I don't know how to make it work better. He is trying to let him help you. Let him figure it out. I felt like I had to police it. It fell to me.

OK. Again. You said that. He knows that. And now we go back to the drawing board. Well, I literally asked. Let me take over. Let me manage this.

Right. So you don't have to ask. You can do it. OK. You can do it. And you can even do it while you live separately. you can do it okay you can do it and you can even do it while you live separately you can do it when you're drunk one doesn't ask if you can drive yeah that's true okay when she's flooded you don't ask her to tell you what to do what if she's actually sabotaging through her actions? You need to, at that moment, neutralize her.

Here is the thing that helps the most. Calm, deliberate, taking charge. She will resist. Let me preface. She will resist. Because she hates being there, but she feels that she has to be there, and she's the only one and nobody else can but she's pissed that nobody else can and so the whole thing is a pretzel

you know what's a pretzel like you've dealt with this before i've been that person but you mean i've dealt with it in whatever capacity it's been my. My variation of this, you know. And there is a spin in one's head. And somebody has got to move the needle. This is the hardest thing. You have to continue to do your bit, even if she doesn't immediately respond accordingly. Because you have such a lack of trust in this moment that each of you responds on the basis of your assumptions and not on the basis of what's in front of you.

Capisce? I just asked him to think of a couple of things that he could do that would signify change and something new. I'm now turning to her and asking her where she thinks she could change some of her behavior. And what I'm also looking at when I ask that question, it's an assessment of the degree of responsibility that each of the two can take for what they do. What each one of them chooses speaks to their ability to see what they can own about their contribution to their relationship.

So, you know that you hurt him. What's the place you shouldn't go? Hmm. I think when I imply or insinuate that he doesn't care. He is? Yeah. I'm okay, go on. No. If she goes on, I want her to go on from a place of where she was going.

But sometimes his actions or words would hurt. He's here. Don't explain it. I'm sure you have reasons for why you do it, but don't explain yourself now. Just stay with the buttons that you push. It's very easy, as you can see. Huh? I said it's very easy to push, as you can see. It's an easy as you can see. I said it's very easy to push as you can see.

It's an easy button. The button that I don't care. The hot topic of me not caring. It's very close to the surface at all times. In both directions. Meaning if she acknowledges it, it touches your sadness. And if she... Or even hints at it, it touches your sadness. And if she...

Or even hints at it, yeah. And if she plays with it, then it triggers your rage? Fight or flight, yeah. But right now you're not in flight? No. It's just, it's touching the soft spot, right? Right. Tell me more about that spot.

Well, it's just having those years of not being able to see my daughter. How many? I don't even know. I can't even count. Seven, eight, off and on. Sporadic. I missed a lot of her youth. So not being able to care when you really wanted to. And always caring the whole time. It's a scar that hasn't quite healed. So when she says you don't care, part of you feels all these things. So when she says you don't care,

part of you feels all these years that I cared. Yeah. And there's always that feeling at the pit of my stomach that something is wrong, that I've done. That you abandoned your daughter? I know that's not the case, but I had to walk away. I thought by stepping back, her mom would stop running and plant some roots for her. Did she?

No. So in the end, your daughter had the same childhood as you? Pretty much. Which makes you resilient in some ways, but perhaps broken in others. Yeah, not the life I wanted for her, but... do we ever get that? And we can offer it to her now, which is wonderful. And I know you get along with her very well.

Very well. That's nice for you. Yeah, well, it made me feel safe enough that I could move down the street and still be close enough to be there. Maybe one day you'll move back. Possible. It's very tight quarters, though. I don't know. We're not there yet where we can turn our attention

to our physical need for growth. Like we need a bigger house or we need to go up. If other pieces were in place or we need to go up. If other pieces were in place, we could focus on that. What pieces need to be in place? Money? Money's one, yeah. Just our... Who's the better person on the money front?

I'd say we're both pretty crappy. At making or at managing? Both. I disagree. So they have a moment of softening, and then they go back to a safer territory of arguing. In this case, money. I think I'm quite good at managing money.

It was something that I saw was not managed well and I just did it. But I think that built up resentment as well because... Well and she can't tell me how much money we have at any given moment. I have no idea. I know how much I make but that's it. How much do we have? Don't know. Can't tell you.

It's all up here. I can't live like that, at least financially. I don't think that's managing your money properly. How are our investments doing? Are our income taxes paid? And why don't you sit down for a couple of hours and just show him the stuff? Because it leads to an argument and conversations about how I don't do it properly. It doesn't make any sense. And I don't want to keep having those conversations.

I've paid off so much debt over the years. You can't tell me how much, what our assets and our liabilities. That's all I needed to see to make a successful budget with you. That hasn't happened and I don't believe it will. I have no faith it will until it's like a court order or something. And I'm worried about the future and what that means. But the premise of your financial structure is that each of you says to the other, I don't trust you. You say, I'm not going to show him because he's going to criticize me. And you say, she's not doing it it well so you come up with an answer

that isn't a solution it's just an answer that states your reaction so you never actually talk about money mm-hmm you understand you're talking about you make me feel this way you know we feel that way fuck you fuck you yeah and you probably tackle most of subjects like this. Yeah. An enormous amount of arguments between the two of you is in trying to create one story and forcing each other to agree that your version or your version is the right one in that moment rather than the harmony that exists from accepting that there are two people here

and they have very different views, experiences of the same thing. And if you can make room for that, rather than impose that what you are feeling is what it is, and you should feel the same, you will do a lot better. Yeah? So it changes because you change yourself. You change the other by changing yourself. Since you are the one who actually elicits that behavior in the other, if you don't want that behavior, do something else.

And then you're going to scramble, why shall I? Why is it always me? Because you want it different. And that's enough of a reason. You just heard a classic session of Where Should We Begin with Esther Perel. We are part of the Vox Media Podcast Network in partnership with New York Magazine and The Cut. To apply with your partner for a session on the podcast, for the transcripts or show notes on each episode, or to sign up for Esther's monthly newsletter, go to estherperel.com.

Esther Perel is the author of Mating in Captivity in the State of Affairs. She also created a game of stories called Where Should We Begin? For details, go to her website, estherperel.com.