Who Killed Jennifer Judd? - Ep.2: Killing Fields

Episode Date: July 23, 2025

Sarah Cailean is on the ground in western Washington, determined to get to the bottom of whether the disappearance of Misty Copsey is the work of someone she knew – or that of a serial killer. Sarah quickly learns that Washington is rightfully-known as a serial killer capital of the world, and Misty disappeared at a time when serial killers and predators often went undetected or unapprehended. Speaking with a local investigator who solved two decades-long cold cases, Sarah looks for similarities between the work of known serial killers and the events surrounding Misty’s disappearance. Then – the rug gets pulled out from under her. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

When segregation was a law, one mysterious black club owner, Charlie Fitzgerald, had his own rules. Segregation in the day, integration at night. It was like sipping on another world. Was he a businessman? A criminal? A hero? Charlie was an example, a power.

They had to crush him. Charlie's Place, from Atlas Obscura and Visit Myrtle Beach. Listen to Charlie's Place wherever you get your podcasts. Charlie's Place Previously on Who Took Misty Copsie? 32 years, that's how long it's been since 14-year-old Misty Copsie disappeared while the Washington State Fair. You know for years my mom felt like people thought she was crazy. I mean every time she would even talk to the Peel off Police Department it was like you guys think I'm crazy and I'm not crazy. I mean the problem with this is

she could be anywhere and you don't have anything. You have a bunch of weirdos but you know there's bottom feeders all over that area. She just looked totally distressed. You know like she was in trouble. She just looked totally distressed. You know, like she was in trouble. She looked like she was crying. From ID and Arc Media, I'm Sarah Kalin, and this is Who Took Misty Copsie? When I book my flight to Washington, I deliberately choose a window seat. I usually prefer the aisle, but I've never been to the Pacific Northwest, and I have

a feeling I'll want to see the view. As we approach the Seattle Tacoma Airport, I slide open the window blind, and honestly, I gasp out loud. Mount Rainier looms over everything as far as I can see, even from that high up. It's January, the mountain is completely white, and against an unusually bright blue sky, the stark contrast is truly like nothing I've ever seen. An hour later, as I head out to I-5, Mount Rainier's presence seems even more intense. It's just there, everywhere I look, raining over a sea of evergreens.

We're in the Pacific Northwest now, baby. That's for sure. It strikes me that this is how it would have looked in 1992 when Misty Copsey went missing. Misty's mom, Diana, searched through this landscape for nearly 30 years until she passed in 2020. In some of these woods and in the shadow of Mount Rainier, a pair of jeans was found along Highway 410,

the only evidence ever recovered in this very cold case. I spend my first afternoon exploring the area. Gray skies and patchy fog roll in, mist snaking between the Douglas fir and red cedar trees. This is the atmosphere, so bound up in all the legends and myths of the Pacific Northwest. I will come to understand much more deeply how this area could feel like a hunting ground for anyone or anything that prefers to hide in the shadows. With a setting like this, I can't help wondering, is this really the serial killer capital of the world?

We outsiders are certainly not the only ones who think this. It was funny, after I got your message yesterday, I started just running through cases in my head from that timeframe, both solved and unsolved. And basically what I have come to the conclusion of is that Western Washington was a veritable killing field for young women. Like, I don't think people can even wrap their brains around

how many serial rapists and predators were out running around. It's insane. This is Lindsay Wade. She grew up in Tacoma, Washington. She worked with the Tacoma Police Department for 21 years, first as a patrol officer and then as a homicide detective. By the time she retired, she was in charge of the department's cold case unit,

and she did some incredible work in that role. I originally met Lindsay through a mutual colleague and quickly realized we have almost parallel histories. On my first full day in Tacoma, I head over to see Lindsay. I need a lay of the land, and I need real context. She's the perfect person to help me sort fact from fiction. Lindsay opens the door wearing a sweatshirt with a picture of a 70s-style van and the words, Vans are creepy, on it. Now I'm sure that we're kindred spirits.

We settle on some couches in Lindsay's office and get right down to business. So just to give you some context, in the 1970s when Ted Bundy was operating in Western Washington, there were several other serial killers operating at the same time. You had Bundy, who was abducting young women. But at that same time, there was a guy named Warren Forrest, who was also abducting and killing young women in Washington state and picking them up in his creepy van and then disposing of them. Now that sweatshirt is starting to make even more sense. And then you fast forward to the 80s

and then you get into Green River. I think pretty much everybody's heard of the Green River killer. Pretty much, but for those who haven't, in July of 1982, the body of a missing 16-year-old girl was found in the Green River in Kent, Washington, about midway between Seattle and Tacoma. Over the next three months, four more bodies were found in almost the exact same place,

and a fifth was found near the airport. Investigators believed all six had been killed by the same offender. Authorities formed the Green River Task Force. The FBI, the King County Sheriff's Office, Washington State Patrol, Seattle and Kent Police Departments, and Port of Seattle authorities all working together to try to stop this predator. Over the next 19 years, more than 40 girls and women vanished, only to turn up murdered, seemingly by the same killer.

The task force interviewed countless suspects. Even Ted Bundy was contacted to advise the investigation. Careers were started and finished in the time the Green River killer stalked the streets of Seattle and Tacoma, callously dumping the remains of at least 49 girls and women all over Western Washington, including a spot off Highway 410 in the woods just east of a little town called Enumclaw. In 2001, authorities identified the Green River killer as Gary Ridgeway. I've often wondered if he could be responsible for Misty's disappearance as well.

I have the same question about many other murderers who have been convicted in this region. Lindsay and I are less than a year apart in age. Like me and like Misty, she was a teen in the early 90s with the Green River Killer looming over her childhood. I've never seen a region where there are so many active within the same era, specifically targeting girls and young women.

I mean, like underage women, like little kids and teenage girls. That I think might be special to this region. That's what feels different here. Yeah. I don't know why that is. I've had people ask me, what's the causal factor? There's not just one, there are lots of things that people speculate about.

One of those has been the weather, and the fact that it's gloomy and gray here and you know is there like a seasonal affective disorder or lack of sun psychosis. I don't know but you know there's that discussion about the weather. There are a few other potential factors. Port cities with quick access to entry and exit points are appealing locales for serial offenders. These cities are often transient. They offer anonymity, the ability to strike and disappear quickly.

Lindsay lists a few more potential explanations. Military bases, mental health facilities, that back in the 80s especially, it was not uncommon for a lot of these guys to walk away from mental health facilities that back in the 80s especially, it was not uncommon for a lot of these guys to walk away from mental health facilities and just sort of be out and about and unsupervised. Not to mention the landscape. Heavily populated cities and towns

full of potential victims, surrounded by miles of woodlands in three directions and an ocean of water in the fourth. Then of course there's the timing. The 1980s and 1990s were quite simply a different time. I mean today it would be absurd for a young girl to be seen walking down the street hitchhiking or for a van to pull up and a woman to say, yeah, I'll take a ride with you, you know, but at that time that was normal.

It was commonplace. And so I just think there was so much more of an opportunity for predators to come across victims. And so many more reasons why a person might trust a stranger, or at least take a chance on trusting a stranger. With Misty, for example, if a stranger offered her a ride, could it have seemed like a better option

than walking the 11 miles home? I don't know if anyone offered her a ride. I don't know of anyone seeing her after a bus driver near the fairgrounds who told her she'd missed the last bus to Spanaway. But I do know that if Misty missed the last bus, she couldn't have pulled out a smartphone and requested an Uber. She couldn't text a bunch of friends.

She'd have to have made a call from a payphone. I know she called her mom and told her mom she'd call a friend for a ride. Could she have instead taken a ride from a stranger? Maybe even the Green River Killer himself? I think it's so hard to try to even make sense, you know, looking at a lot of the unsolved cases because there are so many predators to choose from. There's like a whole list of serial killers who were

operating. You know, I've got a friend who's also in this business and we joke that there's like the B-list serial killers that no one's ever heard of because they got eliminated on the big serial killer case and they got kicked to the side because they weren't the guy. They didn't turn out to be the Green River killer, or they didn't turn out to be Ted Bundy. So they got kicked to the side because the detectives had to move on to continue with the investigation

on their current series. However, those guys were in the case file for a reason. They were in the file because they did something really bad. It's important to note, things have changed in Washington state. In 1990, the state legislature passed the Community Protection Act. This created one of the first sex offender registries in the country. The act also offered new sentencing guidelines for violent sex offenses, and this worked to curtail predatory behavior in the area.

It seems to have made a lasting change in the area. With the help of modern technology and improved investigative techniques, it's also harder to get away with murder. Perpetrators have less of an opportunity to become serial killers because they are caught and convicted before they have a chance to strike repeatedly. They serve longer sentences and are often beyond the age of peak criminality by the time they are released, if ever. So yes, things have changed.

Washington State's reputation as a killing field is becoming outdated. Washington State's reputation as a killing field is becoming outdated. But in the 70s, 80s, and 90s, it was accurate. And that's what makes me wonder if the Green River Killer, or maybe one of these so-called B-list serial offenders, is responsible for Misty's disappearance. There is so little evidence in her case. If a well-known killer is responsible here, it's possible we just don't know it because no one has been able to link him to any evidence. If Misty is an unknown victim of one of these killers, her case is certainly not the only

one that remains to be solved. There are a lot, there are a lot of still today unsolved cases, whether they be abduction, rape cases, or murder cases, or just missing, they're just gone, right? Nobody knows what happened to them. Young girls and young women. And I think people would be shocked if they knew that number and they knew how many of those cases exist, especially from that time frame.

Lindsay's work on these cases is one of the primary reasons I wanted to speak with her. In 2012, Lindsay was the one staring at a cold case file, hoping to find shreds of evidence that might help her solve the murder of two young girls. Everybody knew about the girls in the parks. The girls in the parks, Jennifer Bastien and Michelle Welch. Those two girls were murdered in 1986, actually in that park that you can see right there. Lindsay gestures towards Point Defiance Park,

visible through her office window. It's a city park in that it's within the city limits of Tacoma, but this is Washington State. So even a city park is actually a 700 acre densely wooded area with dramatic sheer cliffs jutting into Puget Sound. It's gorgeous even from here, but it's also a little scary.

I'm sorry, Jennifer was killed in the park here. Michelle was killed in another park not too far from here. And the cases were so similar, a 12-year-old and a 13-year-old, four and a half months apart, out riding their bicycles, broad daylight, just what every kid would do. What I did, you know, what we all did, and they both ended up being abducted.

Michelle was found the same day that she went missing, and she had been brutally sexually assaulted and murdered. Jennifer, who went missing four and a half months later, she was not found for 24 days. Lindsay again points towards the park. It is a forest. It's like trying to find a needle in a haystack, basically. When searchers found Jennifer's body,

they learned that she too had been sexually assaulted and murdered. And because of the similarities, it was just sort of, almost like a no-brainer. Like, of course it's the same guy, because this is very unusual. Lindsay was just a kid, but she remembers these cases clearly. They really were cases that affected me as a child.

I mean, they were close by. I can think back to having to walk to school and walking by this gulch area and, you know, crossing the street to the other side because I was thinking, gosh, is some guy going to jump out of there and grab me? As Lindsay tells me the details of the story, I'm thinking of Misty. She's around the same age as these girls.

She lived within a half hour. They were all bubbly, bright students, known to be friendly, clever, and kind. The biggest difference in these cases is that investigators ultimately found the bodies of Michelle and Jennifer. There is no proof that Misty was sexually assaulted, except that her underwear was found balled up in the jeans

found by the side of Highway 410. And yet, my instinct tells me these cases could all be connected. The question is, how? When segregation was a law, one mysterious black club owner, Charlie Fitzgerald, had his own rules. Segregation in the day, integration at night. It was like sipping on another world. Was he a businessman? A criminal? Harold had his own rules. Segregation in the day, integration at night.

It was like stepping on another world. Was he a businessman, a criminal, a hero? Charlie was an example, a power. They had to crush him. Charlie's Place from Atlas Obscura and Visit Myrtle Beach. Listen to Charlie's Place wherever you get your podcasts. Investigators handled the deaths of Michelle and Jennifer with appropriate gravity. And still, despite thorough investigations, both cases eventually went cold. The looming threat of this unknown killer, along with many other serial predators operating in the area

throughout her childhood, inspired Lindsay to pursue a career as a detective. She wanted to solve murders. Lindsay joins the Tacoma PD in 1997 and gets promoted to detective in 2003. In her new role, she decides to take a fresh look at the case that haunted her childhood. She meets with Michelle and Jennifer's families. In the case files, she sees that detectives had been able to get a DNA profile from Michelle's case, but never in Jennifer's. And then in 2013,

my former partner, who was the cold case detective before me, he actually was able to obtain a DNA profile from the suspect in Jennifer's case for the very first time. It was entered into the DNA database and it was not the same offender as the offender in Michelle's case. Despite the similarities in the cases and the long-held belief that a single culprit

had abducted, assaulted, and killed both girls, DNA evidence revealed that law enforcement had the case all wrong. So it really kind of completely turned these two cases on their sides because all this time for about 28 years, the two cases were investigated as if they were the work of the same serial offender. Now all of a sudden we had to go back to the drawing board.

People who had previously been eliminated from the suspect pool because they were not available for both attacks, they were back on the table. I had over 2,300 guys to go through. It was like, okay, well, this is a lot of work. As a former cop, I can assure you that plenty of detectives would have looked at that list of 2,300 names and said, well, we tried. But not Lindsay Wade. and said, well, we tried, but not Lindsay Wade.

She starts whittling down the list, eliminating people who couldn't have committed either crime. It's slow going. Then in 2015, she hears about detectives in Arizona, solving a case using genetic genealogy. And so I was like, really? Because I have DNA in my cases. Let me have the phone number for this genealogist. I'm going to call her. Based on the DNA profiles, the genealogist gives Lindsay a handful of potential last names for the perpetrators in both cases. One of the names stood out.

The last name was Washburn. There was one man, a Robert Washburn. But oddly, his name didn't come up in Jennifer's case file. He was in Michelle's. And not a suspect either, but just one of many people who'd called in a tip before Jennifer was killed. I read it and I was like, okay, that's interesting. I'll add them to my list of people to get DNA from. In 2016, Lindsay gives a press conference

sharing details about both cases publicly for the very first time. Tips start streaming in. And then while we were getting new information coming in on the cases, we were sending groups of FBI agents and detectives out to go collect voluntary DNA samples from those guys on our list.

I mean, I literally would show up at somebody's door and knock on their door and be like, hey, I'm investigating a cold case. I wanna eliminate you. Will you give me your DNA? I mean, I was finding people living in a van down by the river, carnies at the Puyallup Fair.

I mean, you name it, we did it. It was insane. She ends up with 160 DNA samples, including a sample from Robert Washburn. She starts sending them to the state crime lab in batches of about 20 at a time. Everything comes back negative. She sends the final batch of 18 samples

to the lab in January 2018. A few months later, Lindsay retires from the Tacoma Police Department and takes a job with the Attorney General's office. And 25 days later, I got a phone call from the detective who replaced me in the cold case unit. And he said, are you sitting down? I said yes. And he said, we have a match on Jennifer Bastion. And I was stunned.

And I asked who the name was. And he said, it's Robert Washburn. The name Lindsay had gotten from the genetic genealogist. Tacoma PD officers start preparing to head to Illinois, where Washburn was then living, to take him into custody. We were having conversations about, should I go for the arrest, which I really wanted to. But then, you know, it's like,

well, but you're not a detective anymore, you know? You're not commissioned anymore. And someone needs to tell Patty, Jennifer's mom. And I honestly would have rather been the person to tell her that there was an arrest in the case. So as soon as he was in handcuffs, I went from the police station to her house and knocked on her door at eight o'clock in the morning and woke her up and got to share the news with her that she'd been waiting for for almost 32 years by that point. And I'd like run through like all these things I was going to say to her.

And of course, you know, I get there and I was just like, like a deer in the headlights. Like I couldn't remember anything. I was just a hot mess, you know, and she knew, I mean, as soon as she saw me on her doorstep, like, what are you doing on that doorstep at 8 o'clock in the morning? And who is this tall police officer in a uniform that I'd never seen before? It was one of the assistant chiefs that was with me. And, yeah, it was just, it was amazing. It was the most amazing day of my career.

I cannot express how much I wish I could give Misty's mom, Diana, this moment. I didn't get here in time. But at the very least, I'm hoping to be able to solve this case for her brother, Colton, and for all those who love and miss her. In June 2018, authorities got a match on the DNA profile in Michelle's case, a man named Gary Hartman. Again, Lindsay offered the family resolution. I think with a lot of cases that I've worked on, sometimes it was more important for, like, a victim

to just know that somebody hadn't forgotten them and that they actually cared and were trying to do something. Even if I never solved the case or arrested somebody, there were certainly times where, you know, a victim would just be so thankful that they hadn't been basically just left behind. Like, somebody actually cares about what happened to you and is trying to do something about it.

This I know I will provide to Misty's loved ones. Building a relationship with the loved ones of a victim is, to me, one of the most important elements of cold case investigation. It's important for many reasons, including investigative purposes. For my entire career, I've studied and trained in the school of thought first pioneered in the 1960s and 70s by Dr. Ann Burgess. Dr. Burgess introduced the idea that solutions to violent crime are more often than not bound up in knowing

and deeply understanding who the victim was as a person. Not just the bullet points, not just where they worked, how old they were, or what they were wearing when they disappeared or died. But what books did they like? Were they early risers or night owls? What secrets did they share with their closest friends? These types of questions can only be answered

by those who knew and loved them best. This is why it was so important to me to reach out to Misty's brother Colton before ever setting foot in the Pacific Northwest. I'm planning to see him shortly after meeting with Lindsay. First, I want to gather anything else I can on Misty's case. I want to bring Colton new information, or have specific questions to ask him when we meet. And I'm hoping Lindsay can help me answer others before I turn to Colton. Given the similar ages between Misty, Michelle, and Jennifer,

I can't stop wondering if there is any chance that Gary Hartman or Robert Washburn could have abducted Misty the night she disappeared. Gary Hartman and Robert Washburn have been convicted and are serving more than 25-year sentences for the respective murders of Michelle and Jennifer. Neither has been charged with another crime, but based on the brutality of their attacks on Michelle and Jennifer, I think it's highly possible that either or both of these men are serial predators.

However, the more Lindsay and I discuss the details of those cases, I realize that the odds of either of these men having abducted Misty are low. The way the girls' bodies were disposed of, and the fact that Misty's body was never found, paint pictures of different criminal minds. Jennifer and Michelle's killers disposed of the girls' bodies in essentially the same place where they attacked them. This indicates the killers acted on impulse.

Misty's body has never been found, which at the very least indicates that a potential killer made an effort to hide her body and that what happened to her was likely an escalation of violence rather than an impulse to kill. So again, these cases are different. Without having a crime scene to review in Misty's case, though, I can't completely rule out the possibility

that Hartman or Washburn could have abducted Misty. Neither was in prison when Misty disappeared. Lindsay Wade would help close those cases years later. And even if neither is responsible in this case, I can't rule out the possibility that Misty's disappearance and likely death is the work of a known murderer, a known serial killer such as the Green River Killer, or even an unknown serial killer. Misty's genes were found close to the location where the bodies of Anna Chibetnoy and Kim DeLang, two girls close to Misty's age, were found in the four years before Misty disappeared.

And the entire region really was just crawling with serial rapists and killers, targeting very young girls, so many more than most people have ever heard of. So many more than even I knew before getting here. Lindsay is familiar with Misty's case, but not on more than a surface level. She has never read the case files or spent time on the case. And the day I met with her was her first official day in a new role as an investigator with

the Pierce County Prosecuting Attorney's Office. It's an exciting role for her, but unfortunate for me because it means Lindsay can't discuss any active investigations, including Misty's. She can't discuss any details at all, because if an arrest is ever made, this office will be responsible for the prosecution. So I can't get Lindsay's investigative thoughts on the case, but there is someone who used to be in law enforcement

who I can try to connect with again. Cloyd Steiger, the man who first told me about this case, who has offered to help in any way he can. He has been generous with his time so far, but since landing in Tacoma, I've been wrestling with something. Cloyd is a former Seattle Police Department homicide detective. After leaving Seattle PD, he became the chief criminal investigator

with the Attorney General's Homicide Investigation Tracking System. Floyd is no longer in law enforcement because of a very public event. In 2020, in the midst of Black Lives Matter protests across the country, Floyd made a scene at a local restaurant. The waiter was wearing a BLM pin and on his country, Floyd made a scene at a local restaurant. The waiter was wearing a BLM pin, and on his receipt, Floyd wrote, quote, BLM button equals no tip, end quote.

When the media called him out, he doubled down on his views. Soon after, he was put on administrative leave, and in October, 2020, he was fired from his position at the Attorney General's office. I learned the full details of this only after arriving in Tacoma. I now have no interest in meeting with him.

But I'm still waiting to hear back from Puyallup PD. That means Cloyd is currently the only law enforcement official who has both looked at the case and is willing to speak with me. I'm an outsider here. Access is everything in cold cases, and MISTI is my priority. So I need to get whatever information I can out of whoever I can. I set aside Floyd's personal political views and arrange a meeting. And ultimately, it's a good thing, because Floyd would soon make me question the one thing I thought I knew solidly about the case. In 2018, Floyd was working as the lead investigator for the AG's office.

Part of his job was reviewing unsolved cases from smaller jurisdictions, seeing if he might be able to help local police by bringing in some outside expertise. The Misty Copsie case came across his desk. That's the biggest case in Puyallup. I mean, that's what they consider their biggest case. A 14-year-old just disappears, never seen again, and that's a serious case. By the time Cloyd got Puyallup's case file,

the case had been unsolved for 26 years. But it wasn't dormant. I mean, it wasn't like it hadn't been touched in 10 years. No, it was like within two months, or they'd done this or done that, or talk to this person, talk to that person. The problem is they had very little to go on. Some room would come up, they'd chase it down. But it's like swinging a ghost. That's the problem. I asked Cloyde about some of the key suspects I'm interested in, starting with Green River Killer.

But Floyd doesn't think that checks out. First of all, I don't think he'd have been down in the Puyallup area during the fair with so many people around. And the other thing is, he was soliciting prostitutes. Would he mistake her for a prostitute? Maybe, but I doubt it. Could it be him? Yes, but I don't know that either. That's the thing. You have no evidence to point one way or the other.

That's the problem with this. The first time I ever spoke with Cloyde, this was the case he suggested without hesitation. But with the total lack of evidence or direction, I'm kind of at a loss as to why. What exactly am I supposed to do with it? She did call a friend of hers and asked him to pick her up, and he said, I can't, I don't have any gas.

But he did leave and then came back. And so people were looking at him, did he go get her and do something to her? I don't know, and I don't know. This friend, Cloyde's remembering is Ruben Schmidt. Ruben is the friend Misty told her mom she could call to ask for a ride home. The friend that Diana wasn't a big fan of

and told Misty to get a ride from someone else. Ruben met Misty through a mutual friend at her school before she and her mom moved to Spanaway. According to a 2009 investigative series in the News Tribune, Diana once picked up the home phone and overheard 18-year-old Ruben telling her 14-year-old daughter, quote, I get horny just looking at you Misty. I reached out to Ruben to verify this he did not respond. According to Colton and Sean

Robinson, the reporter who wrote the investigative series, when Diana couldn't find Misty the morning after the fair, she called Ruben. He said that Misty had called him looking for a ride home, but he didn't have enough gas in his car, so he told Misty he couldn't pick her up. At the time, Ruben was staying with the family of one of his friends. Diana called the house again a few hours

after she spoke to Ruben. This time, the friend answered. He told Diana that Ruben had gone to pick up Misty. Diana called a third time. This time, she spoke to Ruben. He said that he had gone out, but not to pick up Misty. He'd gone to a party. It seemed that Ruben couldn't get his story straight mere hours after Misty went missing. I haven't had a chance to read the complete case file, but Cloyde has.

And more than 30 years after the initial investigation, Cloyde says Rubin struck him as a solid suspect. He had a criminal history. He was just your typical low life. Ultimately, the police have largely dismissed Rubin as a suspect. Floyd stands by their work, so he doesn't think highly of Rubin, but he is not

saying Rubin is responsible. And after thoroughly reviewing the police case files, Floyd felt he had a pretty good guess about what most likely happened to Misty that night. Somebody who happens to be a sexual predator sees this little girl looking lost, offers her a ride. She's desperate. She gets in the car with him

and then he does what he is gonna do and then he kills her. I mean, yeah, that happens all the time. I think that's the most likely answer to this is that it was just some person that came across her randomly and then he dumps her body. There's mountains all over here. You put a body out in the mountains, the animals are gonna scatter it

and you're never gonna find it. From Puyallup, if you left where the fair is, in 40 minutes you'll be in the middle of the forest. I ask what he thinks are the odds Misty's case will ever be solved. Ah, I would say like 15%. It's pretty low. But you never know, something could come up.

You know, you never know what will pop out. And then this whole thing about finding the clothes out by the Mud Mountain Dam, what are the odds? What are the odds? They're infinitesimal, that you would just be walking in some rural area out in the woods and come across, oh, look, here they are, you know, but no body there. I don't believe that she was wearing those clothes.

By the clothes, Floyd means the jeans and the socks and underpants stuffed inside them, the only pieces of physical evidence in the case. And he's telling me that he thinks they actually have no connection whatsoever to Misty or her disappearance. No, no, these were like size 16, and Misty was like a size four. This doesn't make sense to me. Up to this point, my understanding has been

that the clothes were found about five months after Misty vanished. In February 1993, a small civilian-led search party found a pair of stone-washed jeans balled up in a ditch near mile marker 30 on Highway 410. Diana said they were definitely the jeans she had bought herself and loaned Misty to wear to the fair. She also recognized the socks and underwear stuffed in the pant leg as her daughters. Now, to be clear, Cloyte isn't suggesting that Diana was lying.

Maybe something more like wishful thinking. She was desperate to find anything, and she just glommed onto that, and was convinced, again, that that was Misty's clothing, even though Misty was a very small girl, and these were like size 16 clothing. And the other thing is, if you're gonna kill her, why would you take her clothes and put them... You could throw her clothes in a dumpster. They will never be seen again. small girl and these are like size 16 clothing. And the other thing is if you're gonna kill her,

why would you take her clothes and put them, you can throw her clothes in a dumpster. They will never be seen again. One of the things that's suggested to the Puyallup people is MVAC the clothing and see if Misty's or her mother's DNA is on it. If it's not, it's not hers. The MVAC is basically a microscopic wet vac

used to suck up tiny bits of touch DNA off almost any surface. The MVAC really started to revolutionize criminal and cold case investigations around 2016. Question is, has Puyallup ever MVAC'd those clothes? As far as you know, they did not respond immediately with that or in the years that you were there, you never heard. I don't think so. I don't know for a fact. And we talked about those clothes and how unlikely they were to be hers.

I don't know if they ever submitted them. I mean, the Washington state has eight M.V.A.X. now. They could do it. I ask for clarification, because I want to be completely certain I'm understanding correctly. I ask him, are you saying the Puyallup police did not believe these jeans were Misty's? Yes, I know that because we talked about that. This bombshell from Cloyd is really throwing me.

I'm just barely starting my investigation on the ground here, and it feels like the rug was just pulled out from under me. I don't have access to the files, there's no crime scene to analyze, and now maybe the only place we could possibly have started is vanishing into the mist. My head is spinning. Floyd pulls me back to reality.

A reporter from the Tacoma News Tribune newspaper made a public disclosure request to the Puyallup Police Department for the case file about Misty Hopsey. And the city attorney at the time for Puyallup, I don't know where the hell he got his law degree, but he said they had to release it. They released the entire case file.

I actually understand Cloyd's frustration here. I don't begrudge a journalist for trying to get access to as much as possible, but I think there's a significant risk of compromising any investigation or potential prosecution if you allow every single piece of information into the public discourse. Still, I'm not as frustrated as Cloyde. The detectives that I talked to were very upset that that was released. And I said, I couldn't believe that. I've never heard that in my life. I mean, what the hell?

His eyes still get big when he talks about it. I get it. But me? Right now, in this situation? I'm delighted by the decision. The City granted journalist Sean Robinson eight hours to review the file, in its entirety. He published the stories that have helped me so far, and now I'm hoping he'll help me in a bigger way. Maybe, just maybe, Sean Robinson will let me see that case file? Coming up on Who Took Misty Copsie? Diana starts having a breakdown as she looks at these jeans and says,

those are my jeans that Misty borrowed to go to the fair. My mom gets in touch with Ruben's roommate who claims that he did, in fact, go pick Misty up that night with his uncle. The jeans are like a metaphorical crossroads. If they're hers, then it's something. If they're not, you know, what is it? something. If they're not, you know, what is it? Who Took Misty Copsie is produced by Arc Media for ID.

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