Who Killed Jennifer Judd? - Ep.8: Less Dead

Episode Date: April 12, 2023

In any cold case, three theories circulate among the public: the victim was a snitch; there was human trafficking; or the police did it. As Sarah’s investigation heats up, she is left wondering whether all three theories might have played some role in this case… Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Nature is a dangerous place. On I Was Prey, the podcast, listen to the life-or-death experiences of people who have survived animal attacks, natural disasters, and deadly parasites alike. Featuring audio from Discovery Channel, Science Channel, and Animal Planet. From hit shows like This Came Out of Me,

Nature's Deadliest, Still Alive, and Monsters Inside Me. There are countless organisms that make a living off of us. Listen to I Was Prey wherever you get your podcasts. I can't understand how somebody could kill something they love. Happens all the time. People do things in fits of rage that they don't want to do and had no intentions of doing, but it just happened. And their body needed that release, if you would. You know, I guess in some cases.

We've seen it. I've seen it personally. It happens a lot. I had too many opportunities, man, for anything like that to ever happen. You know? In fact, if I hadn't been involved in that, she never would have been found.

For ID and Arc Media, I'm Sarah Kalin, and this is Why Can't We Talk About Amanda's Mom? In a recent conversation, I asked Renee's daughter Amanda what closure might look like for her when it comes to her mom's murder. Answers, you know. And I feel like I don't want a big trial. And I know that's selfish because, you know, you can't control what happens. But I feel that it's owed to me that you've gotten away with this for over 20 something years. Tell me why. Tell me why. Admit that you did it.

Admit that you've been able to live free for the past 20 some odd years. After doing this and tearing our life apart, I deserve to know why. I deserve for you to admit it. And that's why I say I don't want a trial. I don't want it to be a question. I want somebody to come out and say, I did this.

And this is why. And until then, I don't know if I would ever get closure. Real answers. I have been investigating this case for three years in search of just that. I've spoken to Renee's friends and family members, at least the ones still living. I've interviewed convenience store clerks, bartenders, an ex, former detectives, former tipsters. I've pored over her diaries, personal letters, address book. I've driven up and down the service road where her body was found so many times that I could probably describe it down to each piece of gravel.

I've made maps and murder boards. I've hit so many dead ends. And more than anything, I've interviewed one person over and over again, David Young. I tell myself I am doing this because I can't eliminate him as a suspect, not yet. And that's true. But I think I'm also doing this

because if David did do this, if David did play any role in Renee's murder, he might give me the one thing I want, the one thing that could provide Amanda closure, a confession. But if there's no confession, at least not yet, maybe something else will help us get there. DNA evidence.

Renee's life ended terribly, and her killer walked free. He may still be walking free to this day. But Rene may have taken something from him, too. Something that he had left behind. Something that in 1993 wouldn't have been on his mind the way it would be on a killer's mind today. Information about himself. His DNA. I didn't realize that DNA could be a possibility in this case until one day when I found a little envelope in Renee's case file. In it, there were fingernail clippings.

It was in the evidence storage area, so it was climate controlled. But it was not preserved as well as it should have been. Still, it was something. I sent that sample off to Susanna Ryan, a DNA analyst with decades of experience, to see what we could find out. So we're starting with a really low amount of male DNA, and it was partially degraded.

So the results that we were able to get were only what we call partial profiles. And the right-hand nails actually were seeing a mixture of males. So there were actually at least three males present in that partial profile. But I was able to pick out what we call a major contributor. So there's one person that did contribute a little bit more DNA than the other two individuals. So we have a major profile from that sample. And then the left-hand

nails, we do have signs of a potential second contributor, very low level. But I was also able to pick out a major profile for that particular sample as well. But Susanna says that only one sample from underneath Renee's fingernails is eligible for comparison to reference samples. That means only one is complete enough to even begin to build a profile of someone that we can then test against suspect's DNA. So now that we have this one partial profile,

we have to make a decision. Earlier, Matt and I surreptitiously collected David's DNA off of a Coke can he was drinking during our interview with him. We also have Ronnie Parker's DNA, which he voluntarily gave to us in a cheek swab. Okay, simple enough, right? Well, money is limited, and it might be tough to convince the sheriff's office to bankroll two separate expensive DNA analyses. So I have to make a decision. Which of the samples do I send first? Do I send Ronnie's sample, or do I send David's sample? As far as I see it, the more I look at David, the more reasons I am given to continue my investigation into him.

The more I look into Ronnie, the less reasons I am given to do the same. I decide to send David's sample to Susanna's lab. Now I have to wait. Weeks. But one day, the results come over email. And they read, the major YSTR profile is not consistent with the YSTR profile of David Young. David Young is excluded as a contributor to this profile. In addition, all paternally related male relatives

of David Young are excluded as contributors to this profile. Oh, God. Have I been pursuing the wrong suspect the whole time? Let me read that again. David Young is excluded as a contributor to this profile. What does this mean? So what I did was I swabbed the mouth area of the Coke can, and I'm trying to pick up any saliva,

and then get a DNA profile from that, which I was able to. I got a complete male DNA profile from the Coke can that was from Mr. Young. Then I have this profile. Now I want to compare it to any results that I've previously obtained. In this case, it's from the right nails and from the left nails. And we do have a major profile from both the right nail and from the left nails. And that's what the comparisons are to because the minor component is so minor that it's basically considered inconclusive. I can't make comparisons to that minor. It's just too little information. Now, when I compare David Young to the major component of the right nails, he's excluded as a contributor. It's just not matching up, right?

So we just do a one-to-one comparison. And I can see that his DNA types at these loci or locations where I can compare are just not the same, right? So I exclude him. And then the same with the major portion of the swab from the left nails, where he is excluded from the major component. But again, I can't speak to the minor component of these profiles. if there was defensive action taken? Or is it more likely that it's such a low number because it was just overwhelmed by the amount of her own blood or degraded over time? Right, so if this was a fresh sample from under the fingernails

and had just recently occurred, it's a really low level. So if I see that and this is a new case, not a cold case, then I'm more inclined to think, this is probably just casual contact. Does she have kids? It's not an overwhelming amount. Does it absolutely mean that someone couldn't have scratched or gotten a hold of their attacker? No. But I think the other thing that makes me lean more towards casual contact is that we have three males, right, under the right nails. So that kind of indicates that this person

is maybe in contact with a significant number of people, including a number of males that just has a tendency to pick up DNA. Again, it makes it more difficult because it's a cold case, because a number of years have passed and the samples are degraded. So we don't really know the starting amount. We know what we have now this many years later. So it makes it more difficult. This is as far as the science can take us for now. Susanna says the lab had carefully preserved a little bit of that male DNA. Maybe someday the testing will allow us to get profiles of the other men who had clearly come into contact with Renee

in the hours, maybe even just minutes before her death. But for now, DNA is a dead end. Looks like we will have to continue doing this the old-fashioned way. Gumshoe, boots on the ground, hitting pavement, knocking on doors. As I see it now, here is the case against David Young.

David came onto the radar of investigators early on in their 1993 investigation. Two tips were called in about him. One from a doctor, the other from a DMV employee. Both tips said that David seemed distressed about the murder and talked about it in detail. However, the original detectives chose not to investigate those tips. After her murder, Renee's family said that David visited them regularly. David bought Renee's car off of them.

They also say he gave them items of Renee's, like a necklace she wore often. And he bought gifts for her daughter Amanda, including a bicycle, and wrote her cards. Then he disappeared. I remember my grandma used to buy him a Christmas present, and it was a carton of Winston cigarettes.

And then one year, he never came. And then he never came again. He just stopped coming. No letter, no phone call. He just stopped out of nowhere. So my grandma didn't know if something happened to him or just got busy. And I remember that box of wrapped cigarettes long after Christmas was over. My grandma just kept it out, you know, in case everybody showed up, then she had it for him. And eventually she just threw it away. Once I began interviewing David for this case,

I noticed other things. David continually lies and changes his story when it comes to his relationship with Renee. The first time we approached him, he claimed not to know her very well. But over time, he's indicated that they had a much closer relationship. I was always scared for her to lie, man. I think that's why I was so concerned about her. I never did ask her who I was looking for.

I don't know what the hell I was thinking. David also shares details of Renee's murder with us that are not publicly available. He speaks about the multiple wounds across her body, the fact that she must have been tied up to have the blood drained out of her. To me, he seems obsessed with her murder. Even to this day, he drives by the place where her body was found multiple times a week,

despite the fact that it is nowhere near where he lives. He's also told me and Matt that he burned everything related to Renee, which is odd. Why would he do that?

And David is related to a big drug trafficking family in the area, a family that owns property on the very road where Renee's body was found. Altogether, it feels like a lot of successive coincidences. But there are also flip sides to all of these points. David could have seemed obsessed with Renee's case because he was deeply grief-stricken at losing his friend. His visits to the Bergeron family could be read as his attempt to support the daughter his friend so dearly loved.

And there are many reasons he could have known details of Renee's murder. There has been some media coverage of the case over the years. Also, his brother-in-law was a cop, a cop with a reputation for bending the rules. Maybe he shared Renee's autopsy report with David, even though that's not allowed. Yes, David is related to a very large drug trafficking family,

but he says he has no close relationship with them. And importantly, David's DNA does not match one of the DNA profiles found underneath Renee's fingernails, the only one substantial enough to be compared against. Plus, David has been cooperative. He's sat down for multiple interviews with us. That's no small feat. Even though Matt and I think it's unlikely

that he'll continue to cooperate with us, we decide to reach out to David again and see if he will do another interview. I want him to explain the discrepancies, to answer directly how he'd known the details of Renee's injuries, who he thought Renee was afraid of, and what his role was in the myriad illegal operations of his own family. And if he did do this heinous crime,

if he killed Renee, I want him to confess to it. David dodges our calls, doesn't return messages. This continues for a week or two. So we decide to drive back to his house, knock on his door. It's early morning on a weekday. He opens the door. He looks the same, no worse for the wear of the 10 months since we'd last met with him. We ask if he'd be willing to come down and talk with us again. He seems reluctant. Man, we're just going back through all these case files and all the times we've talked to you. You've got a few more questions.

I'd love for you to throw some shoes on and come down to the office with us real quick. Oh, man. Damn. You got nothing going on. He puts on his shoes and makes a phone call. We can only hear his side of the call. He says, hey, those detectives are here. They want me to go back downtown with them. About that girl. Yeah.

Yeah. I'll call you. He hangs up and follows us outside. He's nervous about a check engine light on his car, so we offer to drive him to the station. It's time to see if we can get any answers to all of the questions we have about David and the inconsistencies in his story. You know, she knew somebody was after her.

Yeah, you said. And I really, gosh, I want that information. I wish we could get so much, you know. I keep wondering why she didn't tell me. Tell you who it was? Give me some kind of name or something. Right. That could have been the key to most of it. Tell you who it was. Right. Yeah, I think.

And that's why, you know, we're hoping maybe we can jog your memory, bring up some new, like, people from back in the day that you moved with. Maybe see if it helps kind of shake stuff loose, you know, kind of knock off the cobwebs a little. That's the hope. Because if we can do that, that might just be the, you know, the missing piece to the whole puzzle. This might be the last time that David speaks to us, so I want to be sure to cover all of our bases and ask every question on our mind. See if maybe we can get him to definitively rule himself out as a suspect.

Or confess to the crime. So, from the times that we've spoke with you, we've got a lot of conflicting information. And we want some clarity on that. I don't

think you were intentionally being misleading. But we've got some facts and evidence that show some of the things I don't think you were intentionally being misleading. Yeah. But we've got some facts and evidence that show some of the things that you were saying just weren't true. And I just want some clarification on that. Was it just a slip of memory, or were you being misleading? I ain't going to answer everything you ask me. Okay. That's perfectly fine.

That's fine. That's perfectly fine. That's fine. That's part of my rights. Absolutely. Yep. Absolutely. That's why we want to talk about those things. If you want any kind of DNA, we'll go anywhere and do it any way you want it. Blood, hair, slobber.

It don't matter. Because I figured they should have at least got some kind of DNA off of her with all the action that went on with her, you know. Yeah. The four tops of the shoulder. So you're okay with giving a DNA sample? Oh yeah, hell yeah. I'll give you a DNA any way you want it. Okay.

And we might do that. I can't even remember how long it was from the time me and her took that ride down there when she mentioned that somebody might be looking for her. And I was telling her that Shannon had a trailer out in Sims out there. She could stay there if she felt that threat. I could call him and get him to let her stay out there. She didn't want him to. I can't remember how much time it was from then. I know that was the last time I seen her. Was when? When that happened.

The day I went to New Orleans with her. Okay. I can't remember how much time it was from that point to the day that she had helped. It must not have been that long. Remember, Shannon is Shannon Poole, David's brother-in-law. David says Shannon had a trailer that Renee might have been able to stay at if she was in danger.

All right, so that brings up another question then or statement on my side. We know for a fact that the Friday before her body's found on Sunday, that Friday she's at your house that night in Crichton. When she pulled up and you and Laura Morris were there at the house? That was during the day. That wasn't at night. That was at the end of the day.

Okay, so that's the last time you saw her? No. I can't put it together. I'm telling you that me and her went to New Orleans. she told me someone might be looking for her or something like that. She was scared, right? Yeah, she was scared. She said something. She said something. That was when she came back to Puerto Rico.

But what we're getting at is you said that was the last time you saw her when in fact the last time you saw her was the friday before her body was framed oh y'all y'all trying to plant the shit man there i don't know how i would plan it i wouldn't know what kind of witness have you got that said they see laura morris we've spoken with laura laura tells us that she was there. I mean, I'm not putting words in your mouth. But actually, you said it too, though. The first time we asked you about that, after we had talked to Laura, you said, you know, we just said, Laura said that, you know, she showed up at your house on a Friday.

Hang on one second, David. And you said, you told us the exact same story that Laura had told us without you even knowing. You know, so you verified what she said. So now you're saying it's bullshit. But you verified it last time we talked. You ain't never placed me nowhere near the time when she went missing and got killed. There's no way. Laura Morris was not in the picture to know anything about us.

Okay, but Laura puts that as Friday before she's killed. Oh, my God. That happened way before. So Laura's statement's not accurate? Not in her saying, putting place in me that close to her being killed. Well, I mean, it's not that close. I mean, she's still...

You're saying that Friday. What I'm trying to get at is some clarification of the statement that you made. Yeah. Saying the last time you saw her was when you picked her up from the airport. Right. Well, we have Laura saying

that actually the Friday before she was found... You're all talking to Laura a lot, ain't you? Maybe I need to talk to her. What would you say to her? I want her to tell me some things that she's telling y'all. Well, if you don't trust me to say that... Well, I trust you, but maybe I need to talk to her. I want her to tell me some things that she's telling y'all. Well, if you don't trust me to say that. Well, I trust you, but

maybe I need to talk to her, but I don't know. I don't know how to know shit with her old man because it ain't none of his business. It ain't none of nobody's business about me and her. Yeah, I agree. It's between you and her. I'm just simply relaying information. Unless it was a wrong

murder. If it ain't got no involvement with her or Renee's murder, I don't see where it's. Unless it was a wrong information, murder. If it ain't got no involvement with her or Renee's murder, I'm going to say there was anything to it in that way. Well, it has to do with murder because she is now a witness that says, yes, she was here with us Friday before her body was discovered. So, I mean, that's pretty relevant. Y'all thinking I killed her, I know that. Well, I don't know, to be honest with you. It ain't never going to happen.

I don't know. It ain't never going to happen. I don't know. You've made some odd, in my opinion, and this is just me being man-to-man with you, David, is you've made some very odd statements. And we're starting to see repetitive myths and truths in a lot of statements. And we're starting to see repetitive myth truths in a lot of statements.

And that has to be accounted for, right? This is a murder investigation. We wouldn't be doing a disservice to her if we didn't ask these questions. Right? Renee deserves that. Her family should have the truth. If we don't have the truth,

then we can't figure out what happened. That crack got her, didn't it? I think y'all are looking in the wrong places for the murder. Well, I want to move on. I really do. But you have to help me understand some of the statements you've made. Well, maybe I shouldn't have made them when I'm a lawyer. But the fact that you have to help me understand some of the statements you've made. Well maybe I shouldn't have made them without a lawyer. But the fact that you have.

I don't want to make a bunch of other statements without a lawyer. You know, he made that clear to me not to make no more statements unless he was here. Maybe I made a mistake when I didn't have a lawyer. I thought I was doing good by being honest about it. You've been helping us. But that stuff with Lauren, that's bullshit. I thought I was doing good by being honest about it. Well, you've been helping us. But that stuff with Lauren, that's bullshit. Last time we interviewed David,

he agreed to Laura's account that Renee was seen at his house before the murder. But now he's getting defensive, angry even. He believes he is the lead suspect. And he is not wrong. Nature is a dangerous place. On I Was Prey, the podcast, listen to the life-or-death experiences of people who have survived animal attacks, natural disasters,

and deadly parasites alike. Featuring audio from Discovery Channel, Science Channel, and Animal Planet. From hit shows like This Came Out of Me, Nature's Deadliest, Still Alive, and Monsters Inside Me. There are countless organisms that make a living off of us. Listen to I Was Prey wherever you get your podcasts. Right now, my partner Matt and I are interviewing David Young. We are anxious that it might be the very last time we do this, so we don't want to leave any question unasked, any stone unturned. I haven't understood the investigation on this since it started with Cookie. Cookie, yeah.

Why couldn't, I mean, why couldn't they get something then? There's a multitude of reasons. I think it's a totality of lack of effort, bad policing, technology, the crowd of people she ran with, and that y'all were around at the time. There was just a whole kit and caboodle of things that kind of did a trifecta, if you would, to where there wasn't a whole ton of evidence. If you drag on dope dealers, you're going to get killed. Sometimes, that's the case. You want to know my personal opinion on this thing? Based off of what I know from reading this case for the last 18 months,

almost two years, I think it's somebody she was close with. I think it was somebody who loved her, honestly. I don't think it was a random dope dealer. I can't understand how somebody could kill something they love happens all the time people do things in fits of rage that they don't want to do and had no intentions of doing but it just happened and then that their body needed that release, if you would. You know, I guess in some cases. We've seen it. I've seen it personally.

I had too many opportunities, man, for anything like that to ever happen. In fact, if I had been involved in that, she never would have been found. What would you have done differently? I know how to murder somebody and make them disappear. How? You get rid of them. Why don't somebody leave

with laying outside in the road and they're just sending a message? You rat on me, this is where you go. Okay. How would you have done it then? I would have just gotten rid of them. How do you get rid of a body?

Because there ain't too many people that know how to do that. I ain't never did nothing like that, but I think from what I've learned in life, you would never let nobody find nobody. If they've been done to. It would take a stupid... I mean, it comes back to me that it was blacks involved in the whole thing because they're stupid anyway.

They are. They're going to be stupid. And people in general are ignorant when it comes to this stuff. It limits things when you specifically say it's black. It's so mad, it's psycho when you think about what they did to them. Absolutely. That's what Estes thought it was. He said he psyched those guys down the interstate all the time looking for crazy-ass girls.

Sometimes that psycho lives right in the community, though. I just wonder how many people, these people, this couldn't have been the only killing they ever did. I don't... Why do you think that? I don't know. It just don't make no sense for somebody to do that and not have done it before or something, you know?

I find this back and forth interesting for a few reasons. First, David is critical of the investigation. He says there are clear persons of interest. Is he trying to direct our attention away from him? Second, David is again showing knowledge of the case. He references Cookie Estes multiple times, the former lead detective. Did he talk to Cookie firsthand?

And third, he gives us a theory of how he would commit this murder if he did it. Huh. As we continue our interview with David, I know I need to ask him about his visits to the Bergeron family. Why did he visit them so often? And then why did he stop all of a sudden? I went down there a lot after that happened.

Right, but she said that you guys were, you were coming down and visiting with her and her grandma and stuff until she was about 14. Yeah. So for a few years after that. I guess, yeah. Yeah, because I was working a lot. I was making good money then.

I took a couple of new bicycles and gave them money and stuff. I would have always done that. What made you stop? I don't know. I don't know. Just wiggling down there. I know y'all, you were very close with the family. I'm not. Just going down there. I know y'all, you were very close with the family. Oh, yeah.

And very concerned about the case. Oh, yeah. And then you just kind of stopped. Help me understand why. I got a lot on my mind. I thought a lot of my mother and daddy, you know. That's just odd to me. Right?

How long can anything keep going on, man? Help me understand why you quit going up there, David. Oh, to see him? Yeah, so you went over there for years, years and years, and were heavily involved in their life. Oh, I know. And what? And then one day to the next. You just quit going down there, quit calling.

They couldn't get in touch with you. They literally thought you died when we reached out to them. I know you told me before. So let's back up. Why did you quit going to New Orleans to visit family? I can't explain that. I did all I could do to try to ease the pain

on what, you know. Because I knew nobody loved her except her family. They wasn't no m****. You didn't see no m**** following each other. You loved her? Yeah.

Oh, yeah. So you're somebody besides her family? Yeah, I would kill it over. I would kill somebody over. I told her that several times. That you loved her? Yeah, yeah.

I did. I was worried about her her whole life. Over the course of our many conversations with David, he said multiple things about his relationship to Renee. He didn't know her. He knew her casually. Now he says he loved her and would kill for her. I don't mind what you're doing.

I see where you're coming from and where you're shooting at, but that ain't getting back to the heart of what happened to her and who she was hanging around with at that time. Those couple of girls, I know she was messing with at that time. Sure, if you just don't want

to answer the question, just say I don't want to answer the question. No, I don't want to completely just rule it out. I didn't have no obligation to keep going nowhere or doing nothing. It was costing me money to do what I did. Every time I went down there— So it didn't cost you money to answer the phone and talk to them? Well, I know. I know.

So why just cut communication with the family? Well, I mainly started going down there after she got killed because I felt sorry for the family. Does that make sense to you? Well, yeah, in a way it does. The reason you were down there? Why would I keep going the rest of my life down there? I mean, I was concerned about them, and I just found out that her daddy was dead when I went to Moslem and seen this thing of hers.

It kind of pissed me off because they had already— they had a picture of her up on the face of the door, and the flowers is gone. Nobody's—I thought about calling and having, you know, flowers put back up like it used to be. I feel the conversation getting more heated. I worry that our time with David might be running out. We're pressing him, agitating him.

We know he can lose control. We want to push him towards a breaking point. One where he might just finally release all that he knows about this case. All that he may be hiding. And what I think is someone was close and loved her and was sick and tired of doing the things that was going on. Friends don't do that. Mad, crazy lovers do that. Sometimes they can be the same person. How old are you now?

66. 66 years old. I just don't... I thought about what y'all were trying to put together, too, and I don't like it. What don't you like? About y'all, the way y'all trying to put something together that, that ran me crazy cause she was going to bed with smoking crack and I had to end her life because I couldn't stand that. That is crazy, man. That is crazy.

They need to be found, I admit that. I'd like to find them myself. I'd like to do my justice. I don't want to go to court for justice. David, I think I'm talking to the guy who did it. Oh, my God. Honestly, based on the conversations that we've had? You are. You want me to be honest?

That lawyer warned me about y'all. Put yourself in my shoes. Some of the statements that you've said, a lot of the statements that you've said, appear to be not truthful. I'm going to keep on going and giving you statements. I don't need no lawyer. I want to thank you for that. But my point is, and the reason I'm thinking this way is because a lot of the statements that you give are not accurate or not truthful. And then when I ask you questions, very simple questions about...

I don't know how you think these things... Hang on, let me finish. Let me finish. When I ask simple questions like, you were so close with the family that you literally drove two hours to give their daughter gifts and belongings for years, and then you quit going, you won't need to answer that. What, six months?

Is that years? No, it's about almost four years. So it's the simple things like that that concern me. You keep on thinking all you want to, about almost four years so it's the simple things like that that concern me you keep on thinking all you want to but you'll never get no work done I'll give you any kind of

DNA you want it ain't gonna happen whoever's DNA they got is never gonna come back to me because I wasn't there. Did you witness it? That's how you prove somebody's guilty is through DNA. You're watching too much TV.

Yeah. Too much law and order. You can't convict an honest man. You can't do it. It ain't going to happen. What if it's possible that the reason there's inconsistencies, but that you are telling us the truth, that you're innocent, that you didn't do this. What if it's possible, David, give me a second,

that part of the reason there's a little bit of stuff that doesn't add up with the statements is because you know just a little bit more. That maybe you didn't do it, but you know a little bit more that you didn't want to give us at the beginning. And now you're kind of stuck in a corner that ends up making you look worse than you are. Does that make sense? You don't know any more about it than anything you've ever told us who she was afraid of i didn't tell you exactly what happened she did not tell me that day who was looking for her did you not think to ask you were that close to her and you didn't think to ask who wants to kill you're telling me you would kill for her, you would never let anybody hurt her, but you didn't even ask who she was afraid of?

I can't tell you why we didn't go there. Somebody was looking for her killer for something she'd done. Somebody was looking for her to kill her for something she had done. That's what David says. David makes it impossible for us to eliminate him as a suspect, but he also does not confess to the crime.

Nature is a dangerous place. On I Was Prey, the podcast, confess to the crime. science channel and animal planet from hit shows like this came out of me nature's deadliest still alive and monsters inside me there are countless organisms that make a living off of us listen to i was prey wherever you get your podcasts that was the last time matt or i spoke with david we included most of that interview here because I think it speaks to the difficulty of David as a suspect. He contradicts himself. He lashes out. He lies.

But none of that means he killed Renee. And he is adamant that he did not do it, even if he will offer up theories as to how he would have killed her if he had. And without any other evidence, I can't say definitively that David did this. I can't hand the case over to the district attorney's office and recommend that they charge him, at least not yet. Matt and I debate whether we should keep pursuing David as a suspect.

Statistically, she has 80% chance that she's killed by somebody she knows. Okay? So that's already right there. And now we know she's moving fairly significant quantities of weed. I mean, not like tractor trailers, but she's moving more than just a normal person

who sells a couple dime bags. Right. She's killed and dumped essentially on property owned by the largest traffickers in the area. The Banks's. The Banks's, who at that time

were working with the Youngs. The odds of it being anybody else. I agree. Me thinking outside the box is why would you run to your murder? Because she trusted him up until the end. Here's one theory of the case as I see it. Maybe Renee went to David for help the night she showed up at his house. Both David and Laura confirmed that she stopped by his house, though David later contested this. We also know that Renee called a detective, offering to be a confidential informant.

Maybe she was in trouble. Laura says Renee looked beat up when she showed up that night. For me, the big question is, what did Renee and David talk about when she came over? Laura didn't know. David says someone was looking for Renee to kill her. So what did Renee tell David? Did she tell him that she was going to be a CI?

Did she ask for help? What happened next? Now, by this point, remember, he has said to us, I told you she didn't need to be snitching on nobody. And he says that, he says that angrily. So he may have felt justified in telling them when she showed up at his house at 9, 10 o'clock on Friday night, she showed up and said, I tried to call the drug cop and he wouldn't talk to me. Yep, come see me Monday. Now, none of this changes the fact that the sexual mutilation is not something even cartels typically do.

The beheading, yes, but the sexual mutilation, no. And this is why I think he is still responsible for the posthumous mutilation. I don't like the big words, Sarah. After she was dead, Matthew, he cut her up. And he did that because he was tasked with disposing of the body. Or, never thought of this, he went back and did it later. She's killed somewhere, not the dump location. But she wasn't there long.

Nope. So it would all relatively be close. But the last place we know she was alive at. Was David's house. His house. Friday. Friday. Late Friday night.

And think about how many times he's. David's girlfriend. Laura Morris. Laura Morris was there. So, and how many times he's changed his story on that, right? So first, he hadn't seen her in months. He hadn't seen her in a week. He hadn't seen her in two days. If we lived in a world without DNA. He's a very good person of interest and suspect in this case. No doubt about it. His stories don't add up. His stories change the lies that he tells are very, very small, but they're only significant in terms of the case, right? So why lie about where you were living?

Oh, well, it turns out you lied about where you were living because she's seen at your house. Yeah, it's the DNA. But the DNA is a partial from fingernails that could be from any part during the day, any part during the fight. We're all of the mind that this probably was not him i mean there's no reason for him to attack her on the head and beat her when she obviously at that point still trusts him he could have he could have surprised her and there would be no other wounds on her body if he's just going to kill her that night so there's somebody else involved in this and and again when you look at the odds it happens on a road where almost all the properties are owned by the Banks' and the Young's.

And she's moving drugs, and he is connected to those people too. Like I said earlier, it's a very tough case because your witnesses, one, don't remember a lot of what happened in 93, or don't remember a whole lot, or some of the witnesses are dead. So it's a very tough case to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. My opinion that if you go to a jury or a grand jury with this, we can indict a ham sandwich. Yes. Right? It's all on what you tell them happened.

Here's the thing. We don't want to indict someone until we ourselves are fully convinced that he did it. Matt certainly doesn't, but me neither. Still, something does not sit right with me when it comes to David Young. You know, when you tell people the story about this thing, and you tell people about him taking Amanda there at 10,

you tell people about him still going down there, everybody's like, oh, he did it. Which I agree is not, that is not a reason to put somebody in prison. But I agree with you an indictment would be relatively easy. Absolutely. None of us are in the business of putting somebody in jail who didn't do it. Yeah, that's not going to happen. Right, that's what I mean. I don't want that. I don't want that either. The misdemeanor doesn't meet, in my opinion right now, doesn't meet that burden of proof to convict beyond the reason.

So what do you want? I think there needs to be more. To feel better about that. I just think there should be more. But what is more Matt? What do you want? Well, sometimes you don't have more sometimes you're only limited obviously to what the case gives you and you can't just make things up not saying that that's been done but um you can't hope and wish that this is be resolved it's just the lack of i know i but i guess i'm asking what would what would seal it more for you? In the absence of DNA, because not every case is going to have DNA. That's just a fact.

In the absence. Obviously, a confession would be great, or an admission of participation in the crime. Yeah. Or knowledge of the crime. Matt, Amanda, me, we all want the same thing. A confession. It feels like the only kind of certainty available in a cold case like this. And it's exactly what eludes us.

I would like to be able to say to you that this is all resolved. That Matt and I aren't still debating in a circle, that there aren't nights I've literally cried myself to sleep, afraid of either not solving this case or of possibly charging a weird and dishonest but otherwise innocent man. I cannot say any of that to you. But I can say that in the weeks and months since that last interview with David Young, since we told him in no uncertain terms that he is currently the lead suspect in the investigation into the murder of Rene Bergeron, I have done a lot of work, and there have been some significant developments. I've been back to Mobile three times since then, staying for weeks at a time.

I've obtained phone records for key dates and even for specific phone calls. I've unearthed criminal records from David's past that, for some reason, had never come up in our early searches. Charges, in several cases, of violent felonies. I've interviewed half a dozen new people, people connected to Renee and this case who I didn't even know existed just a few months ago. One of those interviews was with someone very close to the case, someone who may in fact be the missing piece

we've been searching for this entire time, someone who may know the whole truth and be able to give us the information we need to at long last wrap this up and hand it over to the district attorney. I hope to be able to share that with you one day soon. But I also, just weeks ago, received an anonymous tip. It was filed on the Mobile County Sheriff's Office website. There's a lot about it that seems credible, and it points to an entirely new suspect.

It might be nothing, but it is very compelling. So, I'm headed back to Mobile, and I will explore it thoroughly until it can be eliminated, or until it takes us someplace valuable, even if it's someplace completely new. Why Can't We Talk About Amanda's Mom? is produced by Arc Media for ID. The network executive producer is Meredith Russell.

This series is hosted and written by me, Sarah Kalin. Our senior audio producer is Katie Jane Fernelius. Our producer is Meredith Russell. This series is hosted and written by me, Sarah Kalin. Our senior audio producer is Katie Jane Fernelius. Our producer is Eden Turner. Executive producers are Zachary Herman and me. Scores by Travis Bacon. Sound design and mixing are by Dean White. Audio engineering and editorial feedback provided by Josh Wilcox at Brooklyn Podcast Studio. Additional forensic research provided by Josh Wilcox at Brooklyn Podcast Studio. Additional forensic research

provided by Jennifer Leahy.