Who Trolled Amber? - Asma’s deal | We call her Emma Ep4

Episode Date: July 28, 2026

Chloe travels to Damascus to meet people close to Bashar and Asma. One source tells her that Asma took a drastic decision in the early years of the war - she tried to leave Syria. Only it’s not for the reasons you might think. We call her Emma is a 6 part original series from Tortoise Investigates and The Observer.To binge listen to more episodes today, ad-free, subscribe to The Observer and use the code AUDIO50 to get 50% off your annual subscription.You'll get access to:This series and all our podcasts before anyone elseAd-free listeningPremium newslettersPuzzles from the inventors of the cryptic crosswordExclusive offers from our partners including Mubi and iescapeTickets to join Observer events in our newsroom or onlineOr subscribe to Observer+ on Apple Podcasts or Spotify to listen to all our podcasts, including this one, without any ads.Reporter - Chloe HadjimatheouProducer - Gary MarshallSound design - Karla Patella & Hannah Varrall Podcast artwork - Lola Williams & Eliza BournerExecutive producers - Jasper Corbett and Basia Cummings Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Tortus investigates. For those wondering what President Bashar al-Assad and his wife are doing as the world watches in shock, the brutal suppression of the Syrian people, there appears to be an answer. Since the start of the war in 2011, asthma had largely been silent and hadn't been seen much in public. But in March 2012, information began leaking about what she'd been up to. For the cash of emails, the private communications of the dictator of Syria and his wife, hacked emails leaked to CNN. According to the Syrian opposition, a mole in the president's inner circle had handed the personal passwords for Bashar and Asma's emails to a cell of opposition activists. And for months, they'd been monitoring their messages.

The emails revealed a lot. While bombs were killing civilians across the country, asthma had been. and indulging in one of her favorite pastimes. In an email on August 4th, Assad's wife, Asma, ordered jewelry from a cousin's boutique in Paris, writing, one, turquoise with yellow gold diamonds and small pave on side. More than 50 emails she sent and received

were about shopping. The sanctions placed on Syria meant she couldn't make international purchases herself, so she was asking her friends abroad to help her buy, among other things, a fondue set, thousands of pounds worth of furniture, including a chandelier and a Ming vase, and handmade jewelry from a Paris workshop. One corneline with yellow gold diamonds, one full black onyx with yellow gold diamonds,

and one amethysts with white gold diamonds. I remember reading those emails at the time, and it felt like a Marie Antoinette moment. At this point in the war, Syrians were becoming citizen journalists, and telling the world what was happening in their neighbourhoods. But the thing is one half hours. We can already hear the shelling. How regular is that bombing? It's constantly.

But the thing is, for most of the war, central Damascus where asthma lived, would have seemed a world away from the rest of the country. Apart from a few bombings of government offices and the odd mortarshell in the first couple of years, life in the heart of the capital, at least for many of Syria's regime elites, went on pretty much as normal. People still went to dinner parties and concerts, ladies had their hair and nails done. You could hear the war going on in the suburbs nearby.

Occasionally, you could even smell the explosions, but actually, most of the time, you could kind of shut it out. So maybe it didn't feel that weird to be shopping while the country burnt. And it seems likely that since becoming First Lady, asthma had kind of got used to shutting things out. Next, it's Kevin James. Meanwhile, Bashar was sending his wife video clips of a magic show on America's Got Talent and other funny YouTube content. There's something tawdry in catching these stolen glimpses of the daily lives of a dictator and his wife. A peek inside their gilded bubble. Those emails also provide a snapshot of how Asma's friends were reacting to all the violence in Syria.

One person with whom Asma regularly corresponded was the daughter of the then leader of Qatar, Al-Mayasa al-Thani. Like Asma, she was glamorous and was involved in philanthropic work, and she was trying to warn asthma about the violence. December 7, 2011, 1843 GMT, subject. Hello. I can't imagine you agree with what's going on. You've done such great work. It can't all be lost on the basis of weeks of bad policy.

Honestly, how can we be of help? Those leaked messages also show that Asma's friend was telling asthma to get out of Syria and offering her a safe place to go. Subject, hey, every day I think about the thoughts running through your head and the safety of your children. I only pray that you will convince the president to take this as an opportunity to exit without having to face charges. It's not much of a spoiler alert at this point if I tell you that asthma didn't take up this offer. What I have discovered is that asthma did actually try and leave around this time, but she didn't make it out.

I'm Chloe Hadimuthé and from Tortus Investigates and The Observer, this is, we call her Emma. Episode 4, Asthma's Deal. Okay, so we're, I think we're about half an hour from the border. For years, I've been reporting on Syria from a distance. It just felt too dangerous for me to go there myself. Then, a year and a half ago, the regime collapsed. Almost overnight, Syria became accessible in a way that it hadn't been for more than a

decade. For the first time in years, I could get a visa. More importantly, for the first time in years, people inside the country were free to talk openly. So in April, my producer Gary and I flew to Lebanon and set off for Damascus by road. Interesting to see if we see any Hezbollah flags on the right? Although if you're Hezbollah putting a flag out right now, probably not a good idea, is it? It was a strange moment to be heading into the region. It felt like the whole of the Middle East was on the edge.

President Trump and Iran were locked in a dangerous standoff and there was a sense that the whole thing could just tip into a wider conflict at any moment. And yet, oddly enough, Syria felt like the one place that wasn't on fire. God, it's been 16 years since I was last there. After years of war, isolation and fear, it was incredibly exciting to be able to travel there again. I hope that I'll be able to persuade people to talk to me that I can't long distance.

Here's your bag of cash. Soon after Gary and I landed, we met up with Sarah Dardush, a Syrian producer we've been working with. And our first job before heading to the border was to change money. Sarah, it feels like you've just robbed a bank or something. This is ridiculous.

Syria's completely cut off from the global banking system. So absolutely every payment is in cash. And there are no cash points. And each note is fine. So how much is here? The total is $500. Oh, how much in Syrian pounds? Yeah.

It's 6,350. So there's... Six million. You have a 1,270 pieces of paper over there. Should. Yeah. Let me just do that math again. The drive to the Syrian border entry point takes around an hour and a half from Beirut.

Welcome to Syria. we're finally passing in across the border. And after a quick passport and visa check, we headed straight for the capital. We're now officially in Damascus. This is the Mezzi Highway. These Soviet-looking buildings are just the classic Damascus. They're all very drab and brown.

Almost as soon as we arrive, we're out in the old city in a restaurant with journalist Eymann Abdul-Nor. Just a diet cook or something just... give caffeine without the caffeine. He's fitting us in around lots of other meetings he has with officials from the new government and foreign delegations who want to know about the new government.

Eamon is Bashar's former advisor. They fell out years ago, but he's still very well connected. And it's Eamon who told me about asthma's attempt to leave Syria. Yes, it was very big rumors. and I think it's a fact. Do you know where she was trying to go? London, to her home. The recording of Eamon you heard at the end of the last episode

came from our conversation in this restaurant where he told me that around the time of that spectacular email hack when Asma was caught shopping, she tried to flee. She tried to leave with her son and daughter and she was sent back from the airport. She wasn't allowed to board. And she got as far as the airport with her kids. Yes.

And then what happened? They sent her back because they need the approval to take off. And the orders came, no. So how would they have stopped her? They will tell her the captain that we are not allowed to leave, to take off. And then she will see the cars. from the presidential palace there with the protocol team, with her team, waiting for her under the plane.

So she will go. She understood it and she went back to the house. In some ways, you could interpret this as a humanising moment. It gives credence to what people like Brooks and Maria have told me that asthma was trapped by the regime with no way out. If Bashar had let asthma go, it would have risked making the regime look weak, a very public fracture. So when Eymann first told me this, I made an assumption that she'd tried to escape because she couldn't accept the violence being perpetrated in the regime's name.

But it turns out, her issue was less about her husband's politics and more to do with their relationship. They were married women. Yes, for sure, yes. Yes, yes, for sure. All of them. We'll get to the married women. For now, those hacked emails also contained several flirty exchanges between Bashar and young Western-educated, ambitious Syrian women. Younger versions of asthma, if you like. Back at the start of the war, they were working as aides to the president,

and they'd sent emails in which the tone isn't, well, it isn't what you'd normally expect between a boss and his junior advisors. They called him the dude and went on about how loved he was by his people and told him they missed him. One woman even sent a photograph of herself posing. She had her back against the wall wearing sexy lingerie. It all reminds me of what someone else told me when I first started looking into the relationship between Bashar and Asma. Look, I mean, even in terms of Bashar's relation with ladies,

I think he was sick. And I think that it was proven. What do you mean sick? Like he was sick. I think he was sex obsessed. Really? He has this sex obsession. Like a sex addict?

Sex addict with zero moral about it. This is journalist Ibrahim Hamidi. These days he's the editor of Alma Jala, a political magazine. But for many years he was one of the most respected reporters inside the Syria, and he followed the antics of the country's ruling family very closely. The level of immoral behavior of Bashar is like goes beyond any imagination. What have you heard? You know, he has this obsession, like just to make sex with us, with the, of that, I'll say,

because, you know, some of them I know. Can't you just say without explaining who they are? No, it would. Okay. here. He won't say more on Mike because some of these women were his friends, so he doesn't want to go into any detail. But he tells me, Bashar was sleeping with the wives of top regime officials, some of whom were friends with asthma. Asma knew about it, about how addicted he was, and about his relations with the girls.

If what I'm being told is true, it wasn't the suffering of civilians that got under asthma's skin. It was what her husband was getting up to when he wasn't ordering the shelling of cities. That was her tipping point. She knew about it. And I think at a certain point she consigned with it. But she accepted the new reality that they had this kind of marriage relations between her and Bashar. And she accepted that this is how it is.

And she had her own life and she had his own life. there was a sort of trade-off, I guess. It was a trade-off that took some time to reach. Eamond says that that day on the wrong way when she was trying to get out, Asma was told the plane didn't have the authority to take off, and she allowed herself to then be escorted back to the palace. But she remained angry for some time. And she stayed six months with no marriage or physical contact.

For a few months after those emails leaked. And then I think her parents came and they reached that deal. Since then, they start being more in public and start developing her own business network. And you think her father was the one that made the deal? I think it should be someone knows both and away from this politics. in order to be able as an independent talk about this matters, and I think so. Asma's father, the London-based cardiologist Fawaz Akras. Father and daughter are very close.

I've spoken to people who know him, and they say Asma still talks to her dad most days. We know he also had a direct line to the president because he crops up in that batch of hacked emails. He writes to Bashar offering moral support and public relations guidance, advising him on how to respond to his critics in the West. But in 2012, Fawaz Akras apparently acted as a marriage counsellor. Maybe he couldn't stop his son-in-law being unfaithful, but he could make sure his daughter had something to take the sting out of the betrayal. According to Eamon, the deal he brokered was that Bashar would continue behaving as he liked,

but that asthma would be given more power. more freedom, especially when it came to business. The deal was great for her. She got the influence, the money. What choice did she have? In a way, I'm just trying to sort of play devil's advocate, but she tried to leave and she couldn't. So what choice did she have?

Can we really hold her responsible? Yes, for sure, because you can go to silence. Don't help his image. Raise your kids and don't steal the money of the people. This feels a long way from Emma, the young woman who left London full of hope. Nothing back then could have prepared her for the life she's now living, in a war zone, the wife of a tyrant, and an unfaithful one at that. This asthma, who brokered a deal to gain more power and influence in her husband's regime,

doesn't look like a hopeful progressive fighting for change. She looks more like someone making a savvy move, keen to exploit the moment to their advantage. Asma's father, Dr Fawaz Akras, didn't want to talk to me. But he did reply to an email I sent him to say that at no time did his daughter discover serious infidelities by her husband. He said the claim that Bashar had affairs is based on spurious articles which have absolutely no foundation. He also said the idea that he brokered a rapprochement deal between the couple is pure fantasy. Let's go. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

As he gets up to leave, Eamon has one more thing to say. She knows and she sold her soul to the devil in exchange of the money. That's 100%. She could have done so much better. That's it. Thank you a lot. Thank you. I've spoken to another source, a regime insider, who confirmed this story. They said they remembered it being before the war, but they were sure that asthma did get as far as the wrong way before being forced to turn back.

Someone else who used to be close to her told me, asthma discussed leaving Syria lots of times during the conflict. While all that was playing out at the palace, down below on the streets of Damascus, Osama and Farid, the rebel activist and the military photographer were being forced to make very different choices. For months, I spent a lot of time gathering all these photographs together on my personal computer. Then in the quiet hours, late at night, I would meticulously organize them into files and folders, so I knew where to find them.

For months now, Osama's brother-in-law, Farid, had been collecting photographs of dead bodies, often emaciated with obvious signs of torture. Farad's job was to gather the photos for possible use in military forensic cases. But after he'd done that, he'd slip a tiny memory card full of photos into his belt or his shoe and leave government-controlled Damascus where he worked, heading back to the neighbourhood where he lived, which was in rebel-held territory. It was a 20-minute drive, during which he had to pass through both regime and rebel

checkpoints. If either side had caught him with a memory card full of photos of murdered people, it would have cost him his life. It meant that every day he was forced to make the long commute back and forth between his home and his work. It was a journey filled with absolute unrelenting terror, but he had no other choice. The two men had decided they had a duty to keep a record of what had happened to those men so that their families could one day have closure. They also believed that they were documenting evidence of war crimes. Most days after work, Farid would go round to a summer's flat

and they'd download the images. But even at home, they didn't feel safe. We knew that the regime was always conducting raids and arbitrarily detaining innocent people. There was always the fear that their homes would be searched randomly. And then one day it happened. The political security forces raided my family's home. The regime had come on a fishing expedition to see what they could find. They seized a laptop, but by some miracle it wasn't the one that held all the photos. It was such a close call,

and the incident sent a jolted panic through both of them. Osama had a new nightly ritual, looking through those terrible photographs. It was traumatizing, but he couldn't help himself. He felt he owed it to the dead. Quite often, I would lose track of everything around me. I wouldn't even notice who was around me. This one time I was staring at the screen, lost, and I was quite surprised to discover my younger son,

standing right there beside me. He was only about four or five years of age at that time. He'd been there a while before Osama noticed him, and the boy had got a good look at what was on the computer screen. He looked up at me and asked, Dad, why are all these people sleeping on the ground without any clothes? It was very upsetting. I was quite taken aback.

and I was upset that he had seen such terrible images. I told him, these people are exhausted. They're laying down like that because they're just so tired. How could Osama begin to explain to a child how his fellow countrymen were causing each other such unimaginable suffering? It was hard enough for an adult to comprehend. Meanwhile, the photos were racking up. Osama and Farid had assumed the regime would fall within months,

but then two years had passed, and they were still gathering photographs, sometimes 60 or 70 a day. Osama and Farid might have gone on like this, had it not been for Osama's wife? At some point she asked him how long he planned to carry on. She said the photos are piling up every single day, Bashar al-Assad is killing people and you're just collecting photos. The world needs to see these images so we can help put an end to this tragedy.

It was Chowla, my wife, Farid's sister, who first got us seriously thinking about leaving this country. It wasn't a straightforward decision. What they were doing was already dangerous enough. If Osama and Farad were going to smother. all the photos out, they'd also have to take everyone with them, because if the regime realized what they'd done, they'd go after their families. There was a risk and it was a very serious one. I had to weigh my family's safety against all those who had met their fate at the hands

of this killing machine. By this point, Farid was bringing home around 70 photos of bodies each day. The slaughter was unbearable. How long could we just keep archiving their crimes? I think it's important to highlight that that is worldwide exclusive. It's your first interview for the last eight years. I remember this moment. It was late 2016 and asthma suddenly appeared in an interview with Russia 24,

a state-controlled TV channel. It was no coincidence. By this point, Russia, along with Iran, had stepped in to help Bashar after he lost control of almost 80% of his country. And President Putin's military might helped tip the scales back in Bashar's favour. Now it looked like the regime might actually win. And all this time, asthma had remained silent. My first question, why did you decide to disappear?

Why did you decide to stand by your husband and to keep silence all these years? Well, from my perspective, it was never a question of preference. I stood by him because my conviction didn't tell me otherwise. As for the publicity, I've never been one to chase it, so I couldn't really answer your question. Here she was looking as immaculate as ever, very slender in a dark conservative dress with perfectly styled shoulder-length hair

and just a hint of lip gloss. It was an image that had been very carefully curated and she was steadfast in her support for her husband. But there were hints too of how she saw her legacy through her NGO work with the Syria Trust. This was her playing Princess Diana again. But of course my priorities today are helping martyrs families, helping injured soldiers and people that have been displaced

or affected by this war. Asma talks for more than half an hour, but actually she says nothing of substance. The questions are fawning and staged. None of it's very interesting, really. Until the presenter asks... The last question, you were all the war times, you didn't flee the country. Did someone recommend you to flee to save your life and what was your response? First of all, I've been here since the beginning, and I never thought of being anywhere else

at all. And secondly, yes, I was offered the opportunity to leave Syria, or rather to run from Syria. These offers included guarantees of safety and protection for my children, and even financial security. It doesn't take a genius to know what these people were really after. It was never about my well-being or my children. It was a deliberate attempt to shatter people's confidence in their president. And suffice to say, these offers were foolish.

The truth was, several years into the war, as Asma and Farid were gathering evidence of the crimes of the regime, asthma was becoming more embroiled in them. It seems she was busy with much more than war widows and NGO work. had a long list of people I wanted to meet in Damascus. And right at the top of the list was Jihad Yajiji. Here's the editor of the Syria report, which for years had journalists on the ground inside Syria tracking the regime's business and economic activities. And then we began sensing that she was having more influence. You would see her attending, for example, some business

conferences. It's such a strange feeling being in Damascus surrounded by opposition activists and journalists. For so many years, Syria was a place we could only report on from afar. And now, here we were, on a bright sunny day, sitting at tables in the street, sipping coffee, and winding back the clock to a few years into the war when asthma began to emerge as a driving force behind the Syrian regime. And it's only actually gradually, I can't remember exactly when people realize that, actually, know, she's actually completely behind her husband. Don't be fooled by this woman.

Jihad remembers asthma coming out publicly in favor of the war. And then, over the next few years, he started noticing her name begin popping up more and more, connected to various businesses and schemes in Syria. Cultural events, economic events. So you would see her presence gradually gain size if you want. Without us understanding exactly what role she had, but clearly we sense that she had influence.

Speaking to Bashar, and speaking to other decision makers in the country. Then, around the end of 2020, she made a really bold move. If you want to keep your wealth, you had to get rid of people who had a big share of the pie, if you want. And so Rami had a very big share of the pie. He had the biggest share of the pie. Rami Meklouf was Bashar's cousin and a man many people thought of as the regime's banker. Well, the 50-year-old billionaire is considered the wealthiest and one of the,

the most powerful men in Syria. Before the war began in early 2011, he controlled 60% of the economy. This allowed him to build an independent power base. Apart from Syria tell, his business empire ranges from real estate to construction and oil trading. He even encroached into areas of Asma's interest. He had opened, for example, a microfinance bank, which was in competition with Asma, Asa's own microfinance bank, run by the Syracifer development. For years, Asma must have felt frustrated. As long as Rami was around, there was no way she could expand her NGO and economic and business interests. So, he was taken down.

Mahouf has long been considered untouchable, but now he is accused of owing millions of dollars in back taxes to the state, an indication that tycoon is being isolated from the base of. of power. It made news around the world, and several regime insiders I've spoken to say they believe that asthma was behind Rami's demise. So Rami's companies were either closed down or in the cases where they had an established presence in a specific market, they were taken over.

People connected to Asma's NGO network took over. His power transferred to her. It seemed to happen overnight. And for Syrians who'd seen. seen Rami as one of the most powerful, untouchables of the regime. Someone who'd really benefited from the war, his takedown was stunning. It was clear at the time that Rami had lost the battle and Asma had won. Rami may have been Asma's biggest victory to date, but it soon became clear there were

plenty of others in her sights. Jihad started meeting businessmen who'd crossed the border from Syria into Lebanon, who told him there was a new top dog in the country. corporate sector. Gradually, you hear more and more stories of people directly affiliated with Asma, getting orders from Asma. So, for example, no major real estate deal could happen in any city without her being aware so that she has a say she can buy or sell or pressure the sellers to sell to her at a reduced price. And stories began emerging that for businessmen who, who didn't comply with Asma's wishes.

There were consequences. Factories closed, accounts blocked. And gradually, the men who runs Asma's office became what Syrians would call Rijal Sitt. Rijal means the man. As Sitt means the lady. So the man's of the lady.

The lady being the first lady. As set, the lady, being the first lady, being Asma al-Assad. And so in every city she had someone, or more than one person, where big transactions could not take place without her men knowing of them. And so she became gradually increasingly influential in many sectors of activity. I've spoken to people who were inside the regime at this point, and they told me that Asma was power-hungry,

that she promoted corrupt men who were loyal to her, And they told me she did what she did for personal gain. Asma was a thug, you know, when she went on arresting, threatening. This is thuggish behavior. Asma became that symbol. And a violent, relatively violent symbol of that, in the sense that she would have men arrested and even tortured, where she would physically actually pressure businessman to hand over the businesses.

Her directly? I mean, her man, the man working for her, her office. Yes, of course, of course. So she would have been aware that was happening? Of course, of course. It's not only aware of it. She gave the orders for this to happen. How do you know that she was the one giving those orders?

I mean, I know this from a lot of, you know, testimonies of businessmen. When you hear in every Syrian town and every Syrian city about Rijal Sitt, about the men of the lady, even in small towns, then you realize that, actually, she is really the one who gives the orders. So over the course of the conflict, the economy deteriorated and the population got impoverished. And it coincided also with the rising influence of asthma. What happened between the end of 2019 and early... By this point, the country's economy and infrastructure lay in ruins.

More than half the population was struggling just to put food on the table each day. But one significant source of money coming into the country was international aid and development money from charities and United Nations agencies. And if you wanted to get aid into Syria, chances are you had to go through Asma's organisation, the Syria Trust for Development. I spoke to somebody who worked in that sector. It was an off-the-record chat,

and they told me that asthma created a network to capture as much of the humanitarian and development assistance coming into the country as possible. They told me that UN food was being sold for, cash in local markets by people working for the regime. This was a moral dilemma discussed within UN agencies, but ultimately it was decided that it was worth it if a few needy people might still be helped. Meanwhile, UN agencies had ongoing partnerships with the Syria Trust

to, among other things, provide legal aid as well as psychological and social support for people displaced by the war. In other words, asthma's organisation was providing support for people whose homes her husband was bombing. And while most people were going hungry, lots and lots of money was rolling into asthma's organisations. Jihad painted a chilling picture of asthma, a ruthless cutthroat woman who had made a deliberate calculated choice, a thug, as he says, and very much much one of the Assad clan, a big player in her own right. But Asma's father, Dr Akras, told me that this picture, which presents his daughter through a narrow lens of power, ambition and wrongdoing doesn't reflect the person that he knows,

nor the humanitarian and development work that she's undertaken in over two decades. And that these accusations about Asma's business and economic interests in Syria have never been substantiated with evidence. He also said that the allegation that asthma created a network to capture humanitarian or development assistance entering Syria isn't true, and that no financial record, audit finding or similar verifiable material exists to prove otherwise. In 2013, Osama and Farid, and eventually their whole families, escaped from Syria. I felt a great deal of guilt towards my father and my mother and the people I forced to leave their country.

But I tried to justify it to myself by saying I was protecting them and that I made the right decision, not only for them, but for all Syrians. More than 27,000 images made it out of Syria. Among those around 6,700 individuals were identifiable as people who had been murdered, most of whom had been starved, beaten or strangled to death. And in January 2014, Osama and Farid released the images to the world.

But the latest horror story has shocked even those who didn't think they could still be shocked. Experts say this evidence is more detailed and on a far larger scale, than anything else that's emerged during the 34-month conflict, starved and tortured to death. Bashar, of course, denied the photos were real. Showing emaciated, tortured bodies in your prisons. Who verified the pictures? Who they verified that they're not edited in Photoshop and so on?

It's just propaganda. It's just fake news. They want to demonize the Syrian government. But he wasn't convincing the rest of the world. For the first time, the international community could finally appreciate the full horror of what was going on in Syria. Even in the relative safety of the West, Farid and Osama were still so scared of the long arm of the regime reaching them that they were known to everyone but a handful of lawyers and opposition activists by pseudonyms. Osama became Sami and Farid became Caesar. Their photos were known as the Caesar photos.

And when Farad was invited to speak about them in front of the US Congress in 2014 and again in 2020, both times he appeared in disguise, wearing a blue hooded raincoat with the hood pulled tight around his face. And he spoke only in whispers to an interpreter so his own voice wouldn't be heard publicly. Eventually, Congress passed a new law inspired by those photos, the Caesar Act, which massively extended sanctions on Syria. The country was turning into the North Korea of the Middle East. Those sanctions were also specifically targeted at the Syrian First Lady and her family. Her father, Fawaz, mother Saha and her two brothers, all British nationals. The US State Department said Asma's family had accumulated their ill-gotten riches at the expense of the Syrian people.

And the Secretary of State specifically called out Asma, as a notorious war profiteer. The truth is, Asma al-Assad has been utilized as the gentle, soft-spoken face, which carefully polished the regime's tarnished image for the international community. Well, she couldn't do that any longer because of the horrific nature of the crimes that we were able to document and show the world. Osama and Farad had stopped gathering photos, but the moment. bodies hadn't stopped accumulating. There's evidence that the dead continued to arrive in the

yard of that hospital beneath the palace. And I keep coming back to one specific image from that hospital. Not a photo of the bodies. This one was of asthma. The Syrian government says the wife of President Bashar al-Assad has been diagnosed with breast cancer. Photos posted on social media show British-born Asma al-Assad sitting alongside the president with an IV line in her. her arm while apparently undergoing treatment. Asthma eventually recovered from her cancer. But what stuck with me was in one of those PR photos from August 2018, asthma is shown sitting in a chair at Meza Hospital.

It's one of the few times I've seen her so casually dressed in a t-shirt and joggers. She's smiling at Bashar who's sitting next to her. And they look like a couple still very much in love, supporting each other through a health crisis. I remember wondering at the audacity of it, just a few hundred metres away in that same hospital were the bodies of people who'd been tortured to death by her husband's intelligence services.

It's hard to fathom how far this woman had travelled from her comfortable home in London. Final thing really is asthma al-Assad had really been the sort of... I want to know whether everything or some are seen has given him deeper insight into human nature and how these atrocities are possible. Bashar al-Assad didn't kill the detainees in the prisons with his own hands. There was an entire system, changed a command,

that led us to these heinous crimes. Those individuals who detained people, dragged them to security prisons, tortured them, knowing full well that the detainees. evil, in all likelihood, never emerge from those walls again. How do you compute the fact that so many Syrians were involved in something so evil? Are people born evil? I don't think so. The surprising thing was the extent of the torture. I kept asking myself, if the regime wanted to kill these people.

people, why did they need to torture them in such a horrific way? This was more than just carrying out an order or an execution. This is torture for the sake of torture. I've wondered about this too. Torturing someone is very different from shooting them. It's far more personal and intimate. How did the Assad regime create the kinds of people capable of carrying out this brutality. I've spoken to experts who've interviewed lots of people who worked in Syrian detention centres and prisons, and they say that inside those dungeons, prisoners and guards were stripped of their humanity. Moral rules no longer applied, and for the jailers, the detainee's body became nothing more than an object to be acted upon. And there was another

important but really quite banal aspect to it all. The regime paid the jailers' salaries. That's why for a summer, a lot of the blame lies with those who helped prop up the regime's coffers. There were the entities that supported it financially. And that's why we believe that the businessmen who stood by the Syrian regime are murderers, even if they didn't issue the kill order. They are murders because they provided financial support to the regime. Asma al-Assad is an active part of this. Asma and those working for her had taken over large parts of the economy, and they were siphoning off international aid and using the money to prop up the regime financially. But she was helping the regime in other darker ways too.

There was a directive there to the orphanage not to release the children to any family or anyone coming asking for them. She said, those are the children of terrorists and that's none of your business. So don't go looking for trouble. The sound of the scream he let out when they yanked him away like that, he was screaming. Mommy. And do you think Asmanee? She definitely knows. Definitely. I was just crying and saying, for God's sake, just find out where my children are.

are, just look for my children for me. That's coming up on episode five of We Call Her End. This series is reported by me, Chloe Hadimutho. It's written by me and the producer Gary Marshall, with additional production by Hannah Varel. The field producer and translator in Lebanon and Syria is Sarah Dardush. Our interpreter was Aisha Aldris. Development producer was Jess Swinburne.

Sound design was by Carla Pateau. and Hannah Varel. Our theme music is Yamo from the Syrian band Schoon. The voice actor was Majid Atamimi. Podcast artwork is by Lola Williams and Eliza Bona. The executive producers are Jasper Corbett and Basha Cummings. This podcast was supported by a grant from the Pulitzer Center. Thanks for listening to We Call Her Emma. If you'd like to listen to the rest of the series today without any adverts, just subscribe wherever you're listening now. You can also access exclusive reporting, including photos and videos from our time in Syria, on our website, observer.co.uk.

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