Who Trolled Amber? - Into the Dirt - Episode 2: Project Spring

Episode Date: September 25, 2023

It’s 2012 and Rob Moore goes 'into the dirt', undercover, to infiltrate a group of campaigners fighting for a ban on deadly asbestos. None of them knew they had a private spy in the camp. But it's hard to stay hidden forever.Listen to the full series today. For the premium Tortoise listening experience, curated by our journalists, download the free Tortoise audio app. For early and ad-free access to all our investigative series and daily and weekly shows, subscribe to Tortoise+ on Apple Podcasts.If you’d like to further support slow journalism and help us build a different kind of newsroom, do consider donating to Tortoise at tortoisemedia.com/support-us. Your contributions allow us to investigate, campaign and explore, and to build a newsroom that is responsible and sustainable. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Here's a show that we recommend. Hi, I'm Una Chaplin, and I'm the host of a new podcast called Hollywood Exiles. Here's a show of glamour and scandal and political intrigue and a battle for the soul of a nation. Hollywood Exiles, from CBC Podcasts and the BBC World Service. Find it wherever you get your podcasts. ACAST helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. ACAST.com I was thinking, if I do this one, I can't go through

another four years of doing this thing. It's too stressful. There are upsides to being a spy. That thing about being the only person in the room who's in on all the secrets.

I know Rob Moore got a little kick out of that sometimes. This document, frankly, is literally legal like that to my career anyway. But actually, I may get away with it. But the downside is that the stakes are high. It doesn't matter if you're a military spy or a corporate one. When someone catches you spying, you know what to expect. It's not just going to be punishment. It'll be something more like vengeance. If someone rings you up and says someone that you've regarded as a friend for the last four or five years is a spy, would you believe it?

I didn't believe it. I just, I absolutely did not believe it. Like I couldn't understand where that was coming from. He's actually caused a lot of harm. I don't want not believe it. Like, I couldn't understand where that was coming from. He's actually caused a lot of harm. I don't want to have it. I just don't ever want to see him again. When Global Witness give Rob that command to out himself as a spy, I can understand why he feels sick. There'd been a dash of bravado when he compared himself to Agent Zigzag, the double agent, in the restaurant just a few weeks earlier.

That must seem naive and badly judged. Now he finds himself standing at the edge of a cliff, waiting to discover if the people he'd deceived over years would find out the truth. I've worked with these people for three or four years. They care about me and trust me, and it's been the hardest thing to know what I've done, and the only way I've been able to do it is knowing

that this was where it would be going. The only reason he's saying this now, I believe, he's just so ashamed of what he's done, and he's just trying to now come out as a, you know, James Bond character. That's what he's doing, as a whistleblower, yeah. It's complete nonsense, and most people would realise what he was doing was for his own good. He did it for money. In all of Rob's pleas to Global Witness to keep his secret, to keep him safe,

there's an acknowledgement that he's got a long way to fall if his plan doesn't work out, and a reason the drop looks scary. When Agent Zigzag's German handlers bundled him out of a plane over England in the Second World War to do his spying, at least they gave him a parachute. When Global Witness give Rob a nudge in the back, he soon finds out he's got nothing. I'm Kerry Thomas, and from Tortoise, this is Into the Dirt, Episode 2. It's early August 2016 when Global Witness write to Rob telling him to come clean. And even though they can hardly be clearer they want something to happen fast,

it takes him six days to reply. He tells them he understands. They want him to inform all the asbestos campaigners that he'd been working for K2. But he can't, he says. It's too dangerous for his safety and his family's. And he has a little flourish to reassure Global Witness that they don't need to worry about him carrying on as a double agent, since they obviously don't like it. I've also decided to end my contract with K2 as soon as possible and leave the world of corporate investigations completely, he says. He'd only stayed on because he thought he was on the verge of discovering something important that would help the campaign, but he was very nearly there. If that's what had happened, if he really meant it and Global Witness had allowed Rob to walk away

from corporate investigations, it wouldn't have been a get-out-of-jail-free card. His past, undercover, could still have caught up with him one day. But it might have saved him from the terrible fall he was about to take. Like all proper spying operations, the one that sent Rob undercover amongst the asbestos campaigners had a code name. Project Spring is what got me into this particular world, this story. Again, can you remember your first conversation about Project Spring? Project Spring on this one. That's the project and this is the day it starts, in June 2012 in the offices of K2 Corporate Investigations in Mayfair in London. Remember being asked to go in? Other than saying, we've got a new case, come in,

you wouldn't be told about it until you'd taken it. So you would go in for a meeting, and the meeting rooms at K2 were lots of glass-fronted office cubicles with frosted glass so you couldn't see who's meeting who. Rob's handler is one of the top dogs in K2, the Executive Managing director of K2 Intelligence, Matteo Bigazzi. I went going in there, sitting down with him, him saying, right, got a new case. The client is a US investor. One of his investments is chrysotile, white asbestos.

He wants to know about the possibility of whether this will be banned. I have to really remember this because, again, it is a long time ago. So Rob isn't told who's paying K2 to send him undercover. It's just an investor. But, of course, he is told what the client wants investigated. It's a theory that American law firms, which are making a ton of money out of taking asbestos claims to court in the US, are worried that line of business is drying up because they're running out of new victims to represent in court.

So, the theory goes, they're trying to drum up business overseas instead. And therefore they wanted to expand their scope of litigation overseas and to that end, Matteo said the client suspected that American law firms were funding campaign groups, not all campaign groups, but certain campaign groups in order to get a ban and therefore be able to expand the scope and sue abroad and make more money that way. That was the brief. And then actually, one of the things that surprised me talking to you over the years is that you get quite a lot of freedom to decide how to do the job, don't you?

You come up with some schemes that sometimes I'm surprised they let them through, but actually you do have quite a lot of autonomy in deciding how to do this thing. Yeah, obviously you have the brief, and then actually you are asked to go away and think about how you would answer it. Very often at the beginning of a case, that would be called, you know, the phase one report. It's a name that sticks with this particular case.

So right now, the next move is his. It's up to him to plan how he's going to do this job, how to get in with the campaigners and figure out if they really are funded by ambulance-chasing American lawyers. He decides to follow a playbook he's used on previous assignments. His cover will be that he's a TV documentary producer, making a film about the dangers of asbestos. It's a very believable cover insofar as it's kind of, you know, it fits with what I actually did.

He's done TV and he's made documentaries, so he can wear that disguise well. I submit my phase one plan to Matteo, and then I meet Laurie, the main campaigner, on the 13th of August at Starbucks in Edgeware. He's given a target, a hero to the asbestos campaigners called Laurie Kazan-Allen. She's in London but her brother is one of the American lawyers K2 are pointing the finger at. He chooses a method. He emails Matteo Bigazzi to say he's going to get close to Laurie in the most genuine and heartfelt way possible.

And he sets off. Not a double agent at all at this stage. Even Rob wouldn't claim that. Just a plain old corporate spy starting out on another job, heading into an unknown world. starting out on another job, heading into an unknown world. I probably knew as much and as little about asbestos as the next person before Rob Moore came along. It wasn't new news to me that it's lethal,

and I'd have assumed, confidently I think, but I wouldn't have known the details, that it's banned in the UK. Take Cape Asbestos in East London. Its general manager was Tony Mendel. I didn't realise there were still cases going through the courts and people still dying, even though factories like Cape Asbestos closed down 50 years ago. How many funerals did you go to during your 12 years at Cape Asbestos?

Oh, about 110. I kept a black tie in my desk drawer simply because going to funerals was a dismal part of management. I kept a black tie in my desk drawer, simply because going to funerals was a dismal part of management of that particular factory. So when I discover it's the world of anti-asbestos campaigners that Rob's been asked to infiltrate, and I need to know more, I do what Rob did about ten years before. Three weeks after this interview,

Tony Mendel discovered that he too had asbestosis. I read a lot and I watch a few things and I find myself going down tracks where I can clearly see Rob's footprints ahead of mine. I'm to the public two things. One, that asbestos could cause horrifying cancers and secondly, that not just workers were at risk. Duplicitous certain asbestos companies had been. It was cheap. It was dug out of the ground in huge mines in Russia, Kazakhstan, Canada and a bunch of other places. And because it had amazing properties,

it was fireproof and it could keep things hot or cold, it was sprayed around all over the place. Around pipes in schools and hospitals, in the brake pads on your car. Back then, most of what was used was blue asbestos. It's highly, highly dangerous. I didn't know until I started looking. There's another kind. White asbestos.

Chrysotile. The asbestos industry argues to this day, in spite of all the scientific evidence, there are ways to use it safely. The big arguments which are happening today in countries like India, Thailand, Vietnam, they're about whether or not to ban Chrysotile. It was seen as a magic mineral,

and the use of millions of tonnes of asbestos created a successful and very profitable industry, even though that selfsame industry was well aware that asbestos was extremely dangerous. There's a handy short film called The History of Asbestos, which is out there on YouTube if you're interested. It's made at about the time Rob is sniffing his way around the anti-asbestos world, hunting for the right way in.

Watching it now, I feel like I'm on Rob's tail. I can see how he goes about things. There aren't a lot of experts in the film, but everyone there is becomes a contact or a friend of Rob's in the end. He seeks out the people who matter in the anti-asbestos world, and he does it incredibly successfully. And it's clear to me, as I've listened to Rob talking to these people in his early days undercover, he's persuaded there's a real problem.

The United Nations says asbestos kills nearly 100,000 people in the world every year. But they're playing it safe. A lot of respectable experts say there are 200,000 deaths year in, year out. And 125 million people are at risk from it. And 125 million people are at risk from it. And there's a hat tip in the film to a game-changing documentary about the dangers of asbestos. One of the most significant programmes was Alice, A Fight For Life. That film becomes a sort of North Star to Rob,

because it's so raw and powerful. Were you ever warned that working there could be dangerous, that you could finish up? No, we used to fool about. We used to make weeks out of asbestos and put them on our heads. I never thought it was dangerous at all. It's not something you watch and come away wondering, who are the good guys in this fight?

Which side do I want to be on? But what strikes me most, watching and reading blogs and websites and books, is how small a world Rob is going into and how intense. Everyone knows everyone. Sometimes people complain that can make it a bit small-minded and niggly. But it also means that when it turns on someone, it really turns. So why here, Rob? Why here? Well, this is the Starbucks that was nearest to Laurie's house.

As soon as the asbestos job comes Rob's way in June 2012, he really sets about it. He reads a lot, he loves the fact that he can lie around on a beach in Greece doing his research and get paid for it, and he works on getting close to Laurie Kaznalan. She didn't want to meet at her home because she's rightly private. I think I even got the sense that she wanted to... She was particularly guarded. She didn't know who I was.

Rob's got a golden rule. Never cold-call someone you really want to speak to. Always get someone they trust to open the door. So that's what he does with Laurie. And it's part of the reason it takes a couple of months from when he's given Project Spring until they meet face-to-face. So this was just a classic approach method.

Go to someone, ask them about something, they'll recommend you to Laurie, and then you can phone up Laurie and say, oh, this guy recommended I speak to you about this. It's ten years and two months since the last time Rob was in this Starbucks. That was in 2012, when he came to meet Laurie Kazan-Allen. Are you nervous coming into a meeting like this?

Are there nerves? Not a meeting like this? Are there nerves? Not a meeting like this particularly. It wouldn't be over the top to say she's loved by a lot of the other campaigners. Not because she's a firebrand, from what I've seen her style is more gentle persuasion than fighting talk. But because she's tireless and she helps people out. I mean I've been in far tighter situations, yeah? Now it's late in 2022. I'm not suggesting she's going to attack you,

but it's still, you're coming to deceive her, aren't you? At that point. Yeah, at that point I'm coming to... Yeah, I mean, deceive her... It's such a big word. You'll pretend to be somebody you're not and that's a... Oh, yes, the great beginning lie. Yes, there is that. But my intentions aren't...

That doesn't equal all the way down the line I'm set on undermining her or something like that. I am trying to find out the truth behind the central allegation. The allegation that rich American lawyers are funding anti-asbestos campaigners as a front. First impressions of lawyer? Not what I expected. I think I was expecting to find someone who looked as much more someone who might be a kind of more glamorous.

I expected her to look wealthier if she was a front for this billionaire lawyer. Here in Starbucks in August 2012, Rob and Laurie Kazan-Allen talk for three hours. He's on the road to establishing the kind of relationship he promised K2. But I guess she was someone who was... humble and... ..and to an extent, I guess, and I don't know whether I'm reading this into it

as I got to know her, I'm reading it back, but, you know, a vulnerable person, I would say. After he meets Laurie, Rob sends a long report back to Matteo Bigazzi at K2. He says Laurie might be on what he calls a sincere and selfless quest for justice. But on the other hand, he's discovered that she did do some work on asbestos for her brother, the lawyer, a long time ago. So maybe there is something to that idea that her brother is using

Laurie. Rob leaves that open. The report is more than 30 pages long and there's a lot of padding in it. But there's also all kinds of detail about how Laurie thinks and how the campaigners operate. I can't read it without putting myself in the shoes of the person who's paying for it. If I was them, I'd be thinking there's a lot of useful stuff in here. And although Rob finds Laurie humble and vulnerable, and although she doesn't fit the party he expects her to play if she's the front for American lawyers, he doesn doesn't recalibrate do you immediately start to recalibrate am i doing the right thing he doesn't say to himself i'm doing the wrong thing here because i haven't at this stage i haven't done anything wrong and also from a first meeting you know i mean it's it's not how things

real life is right you can someone could be just doing a very good impression of like me doing it with someone i be just doing a very good impression of like me doing it with someone. I might appear like a very sincere person, but I might be this, you know, someone who in fact has got really malevolent motives. So I... In my mind, I can hear Laurie shouting at Rob. You were doing something wrong. Even then. I'd love to speak to Laurie Kazanian about Rob, and I have tried, but she seems to have taken a vow of silence about him.

She and Rob became really close, and people have told me she's so wounded by what he did that she won't talk about him for her own peace of mind. But Laurie isn't the only campaigner who comes to think of Rob as a genuine friend. There's Krishnendu Mukherjee as well. One of the things Laurie says to Rob in that first meeting at Starbucks

is you must meet him. I thought he was a very enthusiastic and very personable person. You would very quickly feel relaxed. He puts you at ease. He very quickly, I think, started using phrases like, I love this about you. Close friends and family of Krishnendu's called him Tublu,

one of those affectionate, diminutive names which Rob uses to this day. He's an immigration and human rights lawyer mostly, one of those affectionate, diminutive names which Rob uses to this day. He's an immigration and human rights lawyer mostly, but also another champion of people who've fallen victim to asbestos, especially in India where it's rampant. I meet him on a bright day back in February in a park near where he works. The sun shines a surprise and the birds are making the most of it. At the same time, unfortunately, I began embarking on a very painful and messy divorce. And Rob was...

He was available. He himself had gone through a divorce and he very quickly became, you know, a confidant and somebody that I really turned to. You do feel very low. And he did say, well, look, it will get better. I promise you it will get better. And whatever, you know, he's done in terms of working for the asbestos industry,

I will always be thankful for that support that he gave me during that period. It's interesting. So even with all that's happened since, you still look back on that as a sincere friendship, a genuine thing that isn't totally spoiled by what you now know about what he was doing. what he was doing well you know i don't i don't know what his motivations were in in uh befriending me and yes i don't want to go through life just being completely cynical about how people behave you know i'd like to think that the the friendship that he provided and the support he provided wasn't purely for his professional purposes, that there was actually, you know, a genuine friendship there.

It's one of those fascinating moments when someone trying to be helpful actually makes things more difficult. Not just in one way for Rob, I think, but two. For a start, there's the promise to K2. Rob said he'd get close to Laurie in the most genuine and heartfelt way possible. I assume he'd have used the same tactics with the other campaigners like Krishnendu as well. And here he is, doing exactly what he promised.

Then there's the question of what I'd do or what you'd do and here he is doing exactly what he promised. Then there's the question of what I'd do or what you'd do if you met someone as open and generous as Krishnendu because for the whole three years they were friends Rob never told him the whole truth. Why would you do that? Rob has an answer to that question, of course. I don't know if I can find the exact date when I had the Damascene moment.

The Damascene moment, the conversion on the road to Damascus. Except it's not quite that. I made the decision in a single moment. But I can show you guys the path to it. And that comes not just with me, but the people I would really love you to talk to. Rob's on a Zoom call and the conversion he's talking about is the centre of his whole story.

What he says is that within months of taking on Project Spring and meeting Laurie Kazan-Allen, he realises he's working for the wrong side. And he flips. This is Rob's telling of the story. And it's important not to lose sight of that because none of the campaigners buy it. He says he doesn't become a double Asian in an instant, but he does become one. As long as you don't cause harm, if you turn poison into medicine, that's one of the sole purposes of being a human being in Buddhism, right,

is to actually be the thing that changes. So, yeah, so I took it on as maybe this is something that I can do something valuable in. And that might be the thing you have to think, do I really believe him when he says that? Which I understand because I'd be thinking the same. He was always concerned about the ethics of what he was doing. Particularly the idea of deception and whether or not deception could be justified. And my basic thought was, well, you know, it depends if you're on the side of the angels.

Eddie Canford Dumas is a friend of Rob's and one of the people Rob said he'd love me to talk to to answer that question about whether we should believe him or not. Eddie's a Buddhist and he's written some best-selling guides to Buddhism. From very early on in Project Spring, you can see in emails and notes about meetings that Rob is checking in with his Buddhist friends, asking if it's OK to take money from K2 to go undercover among the anti-asbestos campaigners. It might be the way he sells the plan to them,

but they always seem to say yes. The idea of turning poison into medicine and this notion that the lotus grows out of the muddy swamp, that you create good from dirt and that it's actually, it's a noble thing to do, to go into that dirt. So into the dirt Rob goes, paid for by K2 and with Buddha, apparently, on his side. ACAST powers the world's best podcasts.

Here's a show that we recommend. Hi, I'm Una Chaplin, and I'm the host of a new podcast called Hollywood Exiles. It tells the story of how my grandfather, Charlie Chaplin, and many others were caught up in a campaign to root out communism in Hollywood. It's a story of glamour and scandal and political intrigue and a battle for the soul of the nation. Hollywood Exiles from CBC Podcasts and the BBC World Service. Find it wherever you get your podcasts. world service find it wherever you get your podcasts acast helps creators launch grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere acast.com all the while as he goes deeper and deeper into the anti-asbestos world,

Rob is building his networks, seeking out all the top contacts. And there's one person so important, he's never going to miss her. My name is Hummingda Baines. I'm a partner and joint head of the asbestos team at Lee Day Solicitors. The anti-asbestos world is made up of campaigners, academics and lawyers. On paper they might look like three separate tribes but they're not really, they're one. They've got the same enemies, they want the same things and they need each other. So the best way to think of Harminda I think is that she's a campaigning lawyer.

If you've been hurt by asbestos in this country and you want to do something about it, you might start by going to a campaign group or a union, but you're going to end up with Harminda, almost certainly. She's been the go-to lawyer for asbestos claims for years. For a long time, it's a straightforward professional calling, until it knocks on her door at home. My dad was always somebody who was always, he never sat down. He had lots of energy, always running around, always doing something.

And I knew instantly because when I came home, he was actually lying on the sofa. And I thought, that's a bit odd. And then he got a cold and I just immediately thought, this is exactly how a lot of my cases then, my clients were being diagnosed, they would basically say well we've had a cold for a few weeks which I couldn't shift. They would then go to the doctor who would say well hang on a minute take some antibiotics. Then they were told a little later

oh you've got fluid in your lung go and have it removed. As soon as I saw my dad lying on the sofa and he had a cold I just thought, crikey, this is a bit odd And lo and behold, he was diagnosed with mesothelioma And because of the asbestos cases she'd seen before Arminda has to deal with the curse of knowing what's to come And then I just thought, my God, this is it. Mesothelioma is a lung cancer that asbestos causes. It's incurable and hideous.

Harminda never tells her dad what he has. He died at the age of 68 and he was exposed whilst working for the Ministry of Defence in the naval dockyard in Chatham in Kent. Someone like Harminda, who's got a big professional standing and a personal story which turns it into something extraordinary, would stand out in any crowd. It would have been amazing if Rob Moore hadn't sought her out

when he went undercover among the campaigners. So naturally he did, and they became, not friends exactly, but comrades-in-arms. Close. By the end, Arminda was helping Rob set up a charity and their closeness meant that when Global Witness decided to blow the whistle on the man who'd gone to them asking to be welcomed as a whistleblower, Arminda was one of the first to get a call. I remember it well because it was very scary. It was about 9.30 on a September evening on the way home and Jamie Begent, who's a partner in our human rights department,

called me and just said, you know, he just said, Haminda, how do you know Rob Moore? Rob has heard the message from Global Witness loud and clear. He understands they're instructing him to tell the whole truth to Harminda and all the other campaigners he's deceived while he's been undercover. But apart from writing that email to Global Witness, he does, well, nothing, actually. He's abroad, which doesn't make things easy, but mostly, I think, he's burying his head in the sand,

hoping Global Witness won't blow his cover. Well, they do. And then he just said, I couldn't believe it because it sounds extraordinary now. He just said, don't talk to him, he's a spy. And I thought Jamie was joking. I just thought, well, who, you know, you don't have conversations like this. And he said, I mean, don't talk to him, he's a spy. And obviously I pressed him because I thought this was a joke and he just said no he'd been

telephoned by an NGO that he worked with and that the NGO had told him that to warn his partner Haminda Baines not to trust Rob Moore not to have anything more to do with him because he was a spy and then when I pressed Jamie trying to flip years of thinking you know somebody in the space of one late-night phone call isn't easy. You can imagine. But eventually, once she gets through not believing, Arminda stumbles into a darker spot. I was so scared because I just kept thinking,

I don't know if I want to go home. I live in a penthouse and at that time there were, I don't know if you remember the story of the, it was a spy who was found in a holdall in Pimlico. So that hadn't, you know, long been in the public domain. So that kept coming into my head thinking, oh my God. And then another spy, I think, was thrown from his house or a flat onto railings. And the reason I was worried is because there were railings at the bottom of where I live. So I had to enter my flat that night thinking,

this is so scary. I had no idea. Well, yeah, I was really scared. I didn't go to sleep and I just thought, this is incredible. And I just thought of it all night until I got back into the office. Even in that moment as Harminda and Rob are being wrenched apart by what Harminda's just discovered, they've still got a small thing in common. They're both terrified of the people behind Rob's spying and how dangerous they might be. Not K2, but whoever paid them. So Harminda moves through the stages quite quickly, from disbelief to fear and after a sleepless night to a clear sense by the next morning of what she has to do. I basically just said to my partners, I've got to inform the other asbestos campaigners because I knew they'd believed him and that basically he was involved in so many conversations with them about the strategies of anti-asbestos campaigning world,

and I knew I had to tell them straight away. I just... I absolutely did not believe it. Like, I couldn't understand where that was coming from. It seemed to me that either there was some confusion or somebody was trying to vilify him for their own purposes. And your instinct was to pick up the phone to Rob and sort this out, or was that not possible? Well, he was in Washington at the time, and he rang me.

I said, Rob, the exact rang me I said Rob the exact I think this is the exact words Rob there's allegations that you're working for the asbestos industry and he said it's absolutely true and I was I was like what do you mean it's true? He said, well, I've been working for the asbestos industry for a number of years. And so I was lost for words. All I could say was, well, you'd better come in and explain yourself.

And that was the last time I spoke to him. And from there, the networks light up. Calls go out, messages and emails all across the UK and then to the United States, to Canada, India, Thailand and who knows where after that. You won't believe it. We've had a spy in the camp. It's Rob Moore. When the truth about Rob comes out, it generates a blizzard of strong feelings among the campaigners. There's fear and fury and amazement,

but none of the admiration Rob hoped they might feel for him. Quite soon, among the lawyers, the shock fades and a decision emerges. They're going to do what lawyers do. I just was numb for a few days. I think, and then quite quickly, the whole idea of taking a case against him sort of came about. And that's when I had to deal with this whole issue and deal with the documents and the emails.

They're taking Rob to court. I don't think I'd ever even really thought about corporate intelligence spying or I don't think I was really tuned into the idea that, you know, corporations would employ people to spy on people like me. Like, what's the point of spying on people like me? The point for the corporations, of course, is to stop people like Krishnendu winning, to stop asbestos being banned. Or if you take Rob at his word, for him, it's to turn poison into medicine. But you only have to put those two points side by side to see how hard it is to manage them both at the same time. That's what Rob's trying to do. In some respects, he does

it brilliantly. No one really suspects him until the moment his cover is blown. But there's a real cost to people like Harminda and Krishnendu. No amount of what Rob calls medicine is ever going to make things right for them. Especially when they find out just how far he'd got inside the anti-asbestos campaigns. Coming up on Into the Dirt... I'm trying to avoid saying anything about Rob Moore. I don't want to... I'm a TV producer from London

and I'm developing a documentary about the way that... I then get to hospital. By this stage, I'm actually going crazy and I'm fighting with doctors. I just don't do that. We need this intrigue to actually get to where we want to be. I'm leaving, Rob, I'm getting out. These guys are working for all the bad guys. And I said, oh, I'm going to stay.