Who Trolled Amber? - Into the Dirt - Episode 5: The verge

Episode Date: September 25, 2023

When Global Witness out Rob in 2015, things quickly fall apart. He loses everything that matters to him but to this day he believes that if his voice had been heard, it would have all worked out differently. Listen to the full series today. For the premium Tortoise listening experience, curated by our journalists, download the free Tortoise audio app. For early and ad-free access to all our investigative series and daily and weekly shows, subscribe to Tortoise+ on Apple Podcasts.If you’d like to further support slow journalism and help us build a different kind of newsroom, do consider donating to Tortoise at tortoisemedia.com/support-us. Your contributions allow us to investigate, campaign and explore, and to build a newsroom that is responsible and sustainable. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Every veteran has a story. Whatever your next chapter, get support with health, education, finance, and more. At veterans.gc.ca slash services. A message from the Government of Canada. ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Hi, I'm Una Chaplin, and I'm the host of a new podcast called Hollywood Exiles. Here's a show of glamour and scandal and political intrigue and a battle for the soul of a nation. Hollywood Exiles, from CBC Podcasts and the BBC World Service.

Find it wherever you get your podcasts. ACAST helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. ACAST.com It's the wrong car. I've never figured out exactly how Rob Moore managed to record so many conversations without people realising what he was up to. But he did, and he did it pretty well. Sometimes you have to concentrate hard to hear what's going on.

But when he's in a quiet place, like K2's offices in London, talking to his handler Matteo Bigazzi, there are moments when he could almost be in the room. You put yourself in situations where you think, oh, I can do it, this is all great, and then actually it turns out to be, you get really alarmed. Rob's just back from a trip to a conference in Vietnam about asbestos, among other things, with a tale to tell. There's a moment when it sounds as if he shifts away from the microphone because the recording gets fainter.

Something happened in Vietnam which frightened the life out of him. I knocked on the door. Oh, yeah. This is embarrassing. Is this in Vietnam? Yeah. I don't remember the time. He has a knock on the door of the Airbnb where he's staying,

very late one night. And I said, hello, and no-one one night. He peers through the spy hole and he can't see anyone. So he rings the owner. kind of a cake with lots of good stuff. I just thought, I'm shitting myself. So he rings the owner. He said, oh no, it's just the maid who's come. So that's this little short maid

who's so shy. So it's not a local heavy trying to put the frightness on him. It's someone who's come to clean the room and she's too shy to knock again and too short to spot through the spy hole.

Panic over for the moment. But things are about to spin out of control. Rob's taking the mickey out of himself, of course, but it's obvious from this and other conversations that he also wants Matteo Bigazzi to know he's getting more and more scared as Project Spring goes on, or more paranoid. And alongside that deliberate revelation,

there's another of those unintentional ones Rob lets slip now and then. It's the sort of scene you cut out of any film about... If it was a night manager, you'd cut that out, right? Is he the night manager? No. He talks about the night manager, the BBC thriller which came out not long before he went to Vietnam. And it fits with a pattern.

There always seems to be a TV series or a film or a book to compare his life to. There was Agent Zigzag, the Dallas Buyers Club, now the night manager. Rob seems to be forever casting himself in someone else's drama. Maybe it's part of seeing yourself as a double agent, almost like being in two places at once, in the real world and slightly outside it at the same time. Running your life like that creates a danger. It means Rob can tell himself a grander and grander story

about what he's doing. It's further and further removed from what everyone else thinks he's up to. It's a recipe for starting with a huge gap between how you see yourself and how the world sees you, by telling yourself, and only you, you're a double agent. Then, step by step, turning that into a gulf that can never be bridged. And from there, into a catastrophe.

That's the story of Rob's downfall, I think. I'm Kerry Thomas, and from Tortoise, this is Into the Dirt, Episode 5. There are nine words Rob said to me once which sum up why he says he's so frustrated with the way his life came crashing down around him when Project Spring unravelled and why the world has found it so difficult to believe him. We were on the verge of doing great things. Always on the verge. In four years on Project Spring, never quite getting there. You never actually filmed with him, did you?

We did not. It was quite early days. I didn't record anything with him. Yeah. It's true of the documentary he's working on with Dan Reed as well. It was very sort of preliminary. But I was sort of saying to him, look, if we're going to do something,

we've got to crack on and we've got to start filming. It isn't that nothing's happening, but Dan Reed and Rob talk about making a film for more than a year, and talking is as far as they get. It's all a bit sporadic, and there's a lot to think about. And I wrote, I was wondering whether you'd be the right person to give advice on the potential consequences for a private sector whistleblower. This is an email from Dan Reed to a well-known media lawyer called Mark Stevens. He's nervously considering his options right now, but feels that he will soon have no other option than to come out.

And when he does, he wants to do so with as much impact as possible on the nefarious activities he seeks to highlight. So, together, Dan Reid and Rob go to get some advice. Can't play any of what Mark Stevens says in that meeting, because he goes out of his way to say right at the start that it's private and confidential. He doesn't know he's being recorded, and he wouldn't let it happen if Rob had asked.

Rob presses record anyway. And Mark Stevens doesn't even know who he's really talking to, because Rob isn't introduced to him as Rob Moore. He uses one of his old stage names in his brass eye days in comedy. But what we're here to ask about is primarily what would be the consequences legally for Fergus if he steps out into the open and goes,

this is what I've been doing. The advice from Mark Stevens is tough. No amount of legal support could help him, or media attention could help him. There's an urgent readout by the lift on the way out. Pretty, um... Bracing advice, isn't it? What may be cause for thought is the use of extra legal means.

What do you mean? Assassination, sort of thing? And when he said assassination, he didn't mean... They're outside now, and the car going past makes it hard to hear what Dan Reid's saying. But he's telling Rob not to take the talk of assassination literally. It wasn't meant like that. It was more that his life would be attacked in a whole bunch of ways.

What did he do with the extra-legal stuff then? Well, just spying on you and fucking with you outside the door. Dan Reid didn't know any more than the lawyer Mark Stevens did that he was being secretly recorded that day. When I told him recently,

he was really unimpressed. He and Rob hadn't got far at all with making a film. Like, you know, we were never sort of waiting for a will-he-won't-he, will-he-jump-won't-he-jump. It was always like, well, call me when you've decided to do this, OK? And otherwise, good luck and, like, be careful. And, dude, how long can you keep this going? I had a feeling that he was, you know, hesitating on the brink.

As it turns out, Rob never manages to get off the brink or across that gulf he'd created. These days, he talks about the film with Dan Reed as if it was definitely happening, when, in truth, it was a long way from being made. Rob says the idea of making it died that day of the meeting with Mark Stevens. Dan thinks it didn't come to a stop there and then, it just fizzled out. Either way, that day was as close as they ever got.

He was in the middle of everything. All the campaigners, the major campaigners, everyone knew him, as far as I could tell. As the clock ticks down towards Rob's cover being blown, he's become a fixture on the anti-asbestos scene. One of us to Harminda Baines and Krishnendu Mukherjee, the campaigning lawyers. Both Rory and Krishnendu Mukherjee thought of him as a brother, as a friend,

and he'd be invited into their homes. And he'd been recording, you know, conversations that he'd had with them. Yeah, no, he was deep. It's a feat of endurance, staying in the game as long as Rob does. But he doesn't know how much longer he can keep it up if the client stops paying the bills. So he does what he does so often and talks to one of his Buddhist friends about it. So he does what he does so often and talks to one of his Buddhist friends about it. All through 2015 and 2016, Rob is checking in with the Buddhists to make sure it's OK to keep going on the asbestos job.

Well, no-one else is going to fund this, and I don't even know quite what the story is yet, but, you know, no-one... There is no money for this sort of thing yeah he said but would it be great but you know what about was to start a charity where one could get money from the forces of good rather than the forces of evil to do the same thing yeah not long after K2 warned Rob the client might not pay for projects spring for much longer in the spring of 2015 his thoughts turned to the idea of setting up his own anti-asbestos charity. And they stay there for the rest of his time on the job. And I suggested this to the agents,

and my justification to the agency was, oh, well, if you start my charity, we'll find out who gives us... It's one of the ways the gulf between him and the campaigners opens up even wider, because it's audacious. Up till now, Rob sold himself as a TV producer. Now he's asking to be accepted as an activist and one with enough stature to run his own charity. He tells K2 about the charity and he tells them it's a real thing not a cover. I personally at that time didn't know of any anti-asbestos charities

spreading knowledge of the dangers of asbestos in the Asian countries. I just didn't know. A charity needs trustees to oversee it. The more high profile, the better your chances of being taken seriously. So Rob starts recruiting a galaxy of great and good anti-asbestos campaigners for his. Like Arminda Baines. It had been in the back of my mind to try and do something about it. So when he just popped up and said this, I thought,

wow, he seems to be driving it. I'll help him. Krishnan Numukhaji and Rory O'Neill, the academic and anti-asbestos activist, sign up as well. One aspect of the charity was medical camps, which are vital in the Indian context and global South context. I mean, all of that was good to hear. And you thought, like, the world needs another asbestos charity, like, there's space for it to do something?

Whilst asbestos is being marketed and sold, then, yeah, there's definitely a need for it. So, yeah, it seemed like a good idea. What's obvious from everything they said and did is that none of the trustees were suspicious about Rob setting up a charity. Not at the time, anyway. And it's really interesting, this charity thing, because I know to start with you were thinking, that's surely all fake.

And certainly, given that I set up fake charities on Brass Eye to lure celebrities and politicians and people into daft ideas, I certainly could have done, set things up like that. But when you look at what it was I set up, how I used the donations, who I'd got on the team to then lead the way, I basically had put the greatest campaigners I could find in charge, raised money to fund to investigate the client. In a sense, the story of the charity is the whole of Robert's story boiled down. He starts thinking about it in early 2015,

but even by the time he has his cover blown as a spy, a year and a half later, he hasn't got it off the ground. He hires those trustees, he makes a website, but he never manages to register the charity with a charity commission. So the best you can say is it was a nearly charity, never the real thing. No wonder Rory, Harminda and Krishnendu, the real campaigners, are scathing. Do you think now, looking back, that there was something really going on there? A genuine attempt to set up a charity? No, there was no attempt to set up a charity at all.

But you had trustee meetings, didn't you? Yeah, you can have meetings about anything at any time. It doesn't mean that anything's happening. It could have been useful, but I don't think, with hindsight, that was the purpose. I think it was to create a new narrative. I think his story was the purpose. I think it was to create a new narrative. I think his story was wearing thin. He'd got all the information he should have needed to develop a story based on what we'd told him already,

and so now there was a new angle, a big, sexy new angle. But for Rob, the lengths he goes to, the people he gets to help, all the conversations he has about it, they're proof, irrefutable proof of his intentions, that he meant to turn poison into medicine even if he didn't manage it. And when he makes that argument, at least when it comes to the charity, there's something which does seem to weigh in his favour. Because late in 2015, the client do stop paying K2, the corporate investigations agency, for Project Spring, for a time anyway. They pull the funding, but Rob keeps trying to

set up the charity regardless. He might still be doing it for his own benefit, but there and then it's hard to see how he's doing it for the client or K2. If it's poison, it's not their poison. It would be easy to get lazy telling Rob's story. I don't think I'm particularly motivated by money. He's just someone who's just, you know, he did it for the money. Simple as that. Have Rob say his intentions were good, get a campaigner to say they don't believe him. It can turn into a kind of ping pong and it doesn't help you understand very much in the end.

There are a couple of big pieces of Rob's story, his version of it anyway, which he works on in 2015 and 2016 as his time on projects bring his racing to a close. They're important and I'm just going to tell them straight. When Rob tells his story now, he puts them at the heart of his case. It's not where Harminda Baines, Rory O'Neill or Krishnan Dumukhaji would put them, but you know that by now. The last two pieces of Rob's story go hand in hand, and together they add up to that theory of everything he says he worked out in his last

year on Project Spring. It's a theory about how corrupt the asbestos trade is, and how far it's got its tentacles into a country like Vietnam. The first piece is some work he does to understand how asbestos is shipped from Kazakhstan and Russia. The global supply chain report is a pretty forensic analysis. And the second is a meeting with a real estate agent in her mid-twenties in the capital of Vietnam, Hanoi.

This wonderful, beautiful girl who happened to work for a state agent. I've taken out the name of Rob's friend and translator and where she worked because leaving them in makes me nervous. But Rob has already started work on that global supply chain report months before he meets her. Rob takes money from Laurie Kazan-Allen, the campaigner he was sent to investigate first of all on Project Spring, and another activist to pay for the report. And he hires an old anti-asbestos hand,

a guy called Bill Lawrence, to do most of the spade work. Once you've read the entirety of this report, it becomes clear that there are vast profits being made through fraud, and that this is being instigated at every stage of the global supply chain, and it seems in every area. So that's the first half of the theory of everything. Rob can see how much white asbestos is being shipped from Russia and Kazakhstan to Vietnam. And he thinks he can see the price being rigged while it's at sea. This is new information that no one's uncovered before.

The second half of the theory of everything comes in Rob's conversation with the young real estate agent. Have they done that because of good business practice or through manipulating the market? Through that conversation and some documents he lays his hands on, Rob believes he sees a whole web of connections. They are also contributing to the profits, is that right? Because they hire themselves. Of bent property deals, banks being propped up,

corrupt relationships between government and foreign businesses, just how much Vietnam is in hock to the asbestos trade? The purpose of the supply chain report, the purpose of investigating the corruption, was that if you could show that this enormously influential business had this much sway within a nation that could persuade the government not even to act in its own citizens' health, that it might be embarrassing for a government to continue doing joint ventures

with companies you can show how the money laundering is actually happening. Rob's theory of everything is a towering thing, and he holds it up passionately, even now. It's not just what's happening in Vietnam, he says. It's a template for all the other countries where asbestos hasn't been banned. But like every tower that ever was, you need to look at the foundations. And when half of the theory of everything is based on the conversation with a 20-something estate agent,

I've never wanted to lean on it too heavily. ACAST powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Hi, I'm Una Chaplin, and I'm the host of a new podcast called Hollywood Exiles. It tells the story of how my grandfather, Charlie Chaplin, and many others were caught up in a campaign to root out communism in Hollywood. in a campaign to root out communism in Hollywood. It's a story of glamour and scandal and political intrigue and a battle for the soul of a nation. Hollywood Exiles, from CBC Podcasts and the BBC World Service.

Find it wherever you get your podcasts. ACAST helps creators launch, grow, and monetize their podcasts everywhere. ACAST.com Acast helps creators launch, grow and monetize their podcasts everywhere. Acast.com The beginning of the end of Rob's story is at the booking office restaurant at St. Pancras Station in London where he meets Simon Taylor from Global Witness on June 1st, 2016. Well, I had the, and I think we can get the agency to pay for this. They know that I'm meant to be meeting you, that was one of my tasks.

From there until the curtain finally starts to come down at the Royal Courts of Justice is a little over four months. Things happen slowly at first then very fast indeed. And to say Robbie's bitter about it all would be an understatement. We were on the verge of doing great things.

Lee Day coming, it's coming with this bullshit thing that I'm this completely cynical, ruthless, cowardly, evil, false Buddhist, manipulator of people for my own control, some sort of character trait that I mean when I just love manipulating people. This awful, despicable person who used his sister's name to try to persuade campaigners that he was a good person, blah, blah, blah. Lee Day is the legal firm where Harminda Baines, the campaigner and lawyer, works. Rob nurses a sort of hatred for them.

That really isn't too strong a word. But, of course, they don't start his fall from grace. Global Witness do that. But of course they don't start his fall from grace. Global Witness do that. Rob, we felt, was not in a position to guarantee he hadn't put people at risk. From the moment Rob puts his offer to be a double agent for Global Witness to Simon Taylor, and tells him about his four years undercover among the anti-asbestos campaigners, Global Witness fret about how much of a risk he is to campaigners in dangerous countries

like Vietnam, India or Thailand. Eventually, they're pretty clear. With everything Rob knows and all the information he's passed back to K2, even if he's convinced himself it's harmless, he hasn't only been a risk to people on the ground, he still is one. And because he was carrying on going,

we felt that had to stop. When we put it to him that we couldn't go ahead and that, by the way, we think you should, you know, come clean to the anti-asbestos people, he said he wasn't able to do it. So that just felt like, that for me just reinforced the sense, well, you've been at this for four years and you've tried to sell this story that it's all benign, but actually you don't really want to stop. Rob hates Global Witness as much as he hates Lead A. His feelings flare up in a document he puts together setting out a timeline of everything he does on Project Spring

after it's all over. It's sober and factual. But when Rob gets to mention Global Witness, he can't even write down their real name. He writes Global Shiteness. After the meeting in the booking office, Global Witness have got three options. They can go with Rob's plan to run him as a double agent, and we know they don't want to do that. They can turn down his offer, but keep his story to themselves. Don't expose him.

Or there's option three. They can do what they did. Turn him down and blow his cover. There's two variations of the third. One, we could have blown him out of the water with a press release. We didn't do that. We chose to go to a lawyer, someone who was supposed to be a trustee of the charity he set up, and that's who got the information,

because it seemed to us appropriate that a lawyer should handle what to do about this. So that's what Global Witness do. Harminda Baines at Lee Day gets the call telling her that Rob's a spy on 26th September 2016. Then things move fast. October the 12th is Rob's first day in court. Because it's not a crime to tell the world you're a documentary maker,

if that's not the whole truth, or not to tell people you're working for K2 when you are, the charges against Rob are to do with mishandling personal information. Arminda Bain's personal information, Rory O'Neill's. They become some of the claimants in the case against Rob. So does Laurie Casnam. Harminda is phoning Laurie and telling her that, you know, I've been guilty

of the greatest betrayal. And that's the story that's established. I write something, please, I'll give you as much time and detail as you need. Listen, I literally want to come in and tell you a very different story. And all of those things, they're no thanks as much time and detail as you need. I literally want to come and explain a very different story. And all of those scenes, they're no thanks, they're going to get caught. Explain it then. In the two weeks between getting found out and his first day in court,

Rob tries to persuade Lee Day to listen to him, to do what I've spent a chunk of the last three years doing, in effect. He wants them to talk to him, go through all the documents and recordings, and in the end, believe him when he says he was trying to turn poison into medicine so i was looking forward to being able to talk to them you know and um yeah i just thought well it's going to be the beginning of a painful process but if we can keep it out of the courts then then K2 will never find out, and then the client won't find out,

because that was my overriding fear. So I'm very alarmed at this stage. But it's not about Lee Day, and it's not about the fact I've got tough questions to answer, because I can answer them. I mean, I just assumed that there would be some space to talk to people. It's a big ask. More than that, really. It's a completely unrealistic ask. The anti-asbestos

campaigners have just found out Rob's been working for K2. They don't know what information he's passed back to them. They don't know what risks he's created for them or people in Vietnam, Thailand or anywhere else. Are they really going to spend weeks, maybe longer, trying to understand if he's a good guy? Or are they going to shut him down as fast as they can? In the end, the legal action against Rob that kicks off in October 2016 takes a little over two years to play out. Matteo Begazzi, Rob's handler, and K2 become part of it as well. There's a series of hearings before it's all resolved,

different judges come and go, and three key moments. First, Rob is served with an injunction, part of shutting him down, shutting down the risk the anti-asbestos campaigners think he represents. And what did the injunction prevent you from doing? What was it? The injunction categorised... I had to hand over all my evidence, really. So any conversations with campaigners, anything to do with the campaign,

emails, all my camera rushes, all my video rushes. I mean, everything. Obviously, there was everything I'd delivered, I'd shared with K2 that was injunctive, but I expected that. So I literally had nothing left. I had to hand it all over to my lawyers, and they were going to destroy it,

but fortunately we managed to win that one over a period of a year, because of not having destroyed it. But it was a fight from the beginning. Second, Rob says K2 make him an offer. My lawyer said that K2's lawyers had said if I was to align my defence with theirs, they would pay all the costs and everything.

It was impossible to do, because in order for me to align my defence with K2, I would have to be... I would effectively be be lining it with the industry i felt and it would mean that i'd have to i presume aligning one's defense mean would mean not telling people what actually happened because my actual defense it doesn't read well isn't very good for k2 Because obviously it looks like they've just got a complete loose cannon in the shot and no one giving him any oversight. And he'd done all of these things, some of which were of extreme embarrassment to K2. So I turned it down. Matt was...

I think it's an important point in your favour, Rob, because it would have preserved you financially. But I was convinced about what I'd done, so, yeah, it was just something I couldn't do. Not being able to speak to explain what really happened to people who you really love is a very weird situation to be in. I mean, you know, this was a thing that I had given my life for, really,

so in terms of setting up a charity and continuing to investigate the client and continuing to work with campaigners, all of that was destroyed. And the third key moment is that eventually K2 offer to settle the case, to stop everything playing out in open court. It's what anyone who knows their way around the legal system would expect K2 to do. And it creates a dilemma with people like Harminda Baines on the other side of it. So you launched the legal action. Do you launch it assuming that you're going to go to trial?

Yes, which is why I was annoyed when it settled, because I wanted to go to trial. And I wanted to see the defendants including Rob Moore, Mato Pagansi. I wanted to see them because examined. I wanted more information about who the ultimate client was and we never got that. So talk me through the decision to settle then rather than go to trial. Well you in, if the other side makes an offer, and it's the offer which you will not beat if you go ahead with the trial, you are at risk of costs. So they made an offer which we could not not accept it.

We had to accept it because we wouldn't have done it any better. And if we had proceeded to trial, there was a risk that we would have lost at court. And then we would have had to pay their costs. Yeah, OK. And do you think to this day the things that you might have found out? Yeah. You do? Yeah.

There is a lot more to learn. But that's why I think, obviously, that's why defendants make offers to settle, you know, pay damages because they don't want this information to get out into the public domain. They wouldn't have made, they wouldn't have settled the case. They wouldn't have offered to make, you know, why would they? If they were telling the truth and they hadn't spied and there was nothing that they'd done which was unlawful, why would they have settled and made those offers of damages? Yeah. The truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

Rob complains violently that the legal action against him wasn't interested in that. It's why he hates Lee Day so much. Yeah, I effectively handed Lee Day with a class action on a plate. They then, through their action, let the client know that the person they'd been funding for four years was in fact gathering evidence to expose them, that this bullshit that he'd been sending through to them, a lot of it was made up.

They tipped off the client that there was an inside guy who was trying to sort of expose them. And who benefits from that? The charity was destroyed. If you try to play both sides, that's the risk you run into. In the end, they both turn on you. His feelings about lawyers pour out of Rob every time we talk. Interestingly, in all the days we've spent together,

he's hardly ever complained about K2. Hardly ever. Morally, he puts them in a different place. And although he accepts he made mistakes, he doesn't see that his plan was bound to go wrong in the end, with or without the lawyers. Quite a lot did. Yeah, of course, but there turned me for the wrong reasons.

Yeah, and the people you cared about turned on you? Yeah, people I cared about turned on me. Yeah, it was awful. It was a horrendous... In fact, I wasn't allowed to finish the job. And, in fact, the messenger got shot and was put at the centre of a class action. And all the evidence that he'd been lying to K2, that he'd been talking to journalists and filmmakers,

that he'd been acting against the industry's interests, that could have been a good news story for the campaign. All the campaigners turned on Rob, but not all of them turned completely. Rob, it's Bill. Bill Lawrence didn't, the guy who put together the global supply chain report. I know there's all sorts of problems around. Well after the court case started, he left a voicemail. But we've still got a lot going on together.

I'm not sure how I can help you, but just keep your head up at night and just give me a ring if you feel you can. It's got a haunting quality to it. Bill Lawrence died a couple of years ago and he was mourned by his fellow campaigners. But also because it's the sound of a man struggling to reconcile what he thought he knew about a friend

with what he'd just found out. I know Bill told some of the other campaigners he felt betrayed by Rob, but he couldn't bring himself to say that to Rob himself. We were very close for a long time. And I think we've got more in common than some people think we've got um all right man look after yourself please look after yourself please look after

yourself the legal action against rob finally wrapped up in October 2018, less than a year before Rob came to see me for the first time. The outcome was everything Rob feared. He was ruined in just about every way. He blames the law for building a case against him which he says wasn't the whole truth. Didn't even ask the question whether he was trying to turn poison into medicine.

And he blames Global Witness for letting the world find out who he was. The point came when he blamed me too for picking the wrong side. But let me tell you the truth, because I've been thinking about this a lot over the last few days. I think if I'd been Simon Taylor,

I would have done the same thing. You would have gone to Lee Day and just handed him over? I would have said, I can see the risk that Rob presents. We were recording that moment on video as well as on tape, and I've been back over it. The physical effect on Rob is dramatic he looks down he won't look me in the eye not just for a little while but for ages but I can see the risk

that there's a channel of information between you and K2 and that's that's from Global Witnesses perspective that's a risk to them but it's a risk to Laurie and it's a risk to the others as well so I can so I can see no one has been threatened no it's not about being threatened it's about you know we know in the end that lori felt that you'd undermined her life's work yeah that's a risk um and so i can so i can see the risk and there's a kind of clock ticking because why would i leave you out there with that risk alive when I can close it down by first asking you to go and tell the truth and secondly, going to law? And so I'm afraid, uncomfortable though it is,

I can see why he did what he did and I think in his position I might well have done exactly the same. Right, OK. Well, he wondered if I'd just said what I said for effect, but I didn't. I think I'm more interested in the truth, even though I use Subterfuge to get it, than Lee Day. I think I'm more interested in the truth than Global Witness. And actually, I think it takes individuals to stand up

and have a bit of courage and go, you know what, I'm not going to just go along with this. I'm going to do something good with it. It was the first moment when it felt as if we'd really begun to part ways. Coming up on Into the Dirt... So we are in deepest Wiltshire somewhere and Rob, I think, has done a bit of pruning on this garden. You're using my story.

I think I wouldn't have taken the asbestos job. You're not taking it to the medicine. You are looking at the poison, Kerry. OK, we'll come to talk about that, but... I do not know how you can do this. This is bullshit. That I'm having to point out fucking things like this. You're not looking in the right places, Kerry.