WHOA That's Good Podcast - 11 Big Red Flags in Unhealthy Relationships | Sadie Robertson Huff & Lysa TerKeurst

Episode Date: November 13, 2024

Lysa TerKeurst's life has completely changed in the last few years and she's here to pass on her learnings to us, specifically about broken trust. Lysa tells Sadie she's identified 11 big red flags in unhealthy relationships and helps us think through and recognize if it's a flag, a pattern, or a one-off mistake. And how can we pinpoint why we suddenly feel uneasy in any given situation? Is it a result of broken trust in our past? And how can we heal it? Lysa also shares how her life has changed in the past few years — from discovering her husband's double life, to divorce, and how she met her new husband, Chaz. Get your copy of Lysa's "I Want To Trust, But I Don't" wherever books are sold!  This Episode of WHOA That's Good is Sponsored by: https://www.trymiracle.com/whoa — Get 40% off + 3 FREE towels with code WHOA at checkout! https://liberty.edu/Sadie — Get your application fee WAIVED when you start your future with Liberty University today! https://everylife.com — Get 10% off your first order when you use promo code WHOA at checkout! - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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first crate at Kiwico.com with the promo code SadieRob. I know you and your kid is gonna love it so much. What's up, friends? Happy Wednesday, everybody. I hope you're having a great week, but per usual, it is about to get so much better. And I truly mean that because we have a fan favorite on the podcast today. If you know her, you love her. If you don't know her, you're about to love her. We have Lisa Terkers back on the podcast

with a new book called, I Want to Trust You, But I Don't, which, even the title is like, I know so many people need this book. So Lisa, thank you for writing it and thank you for being here. Thank you. It's always so fun. And I love the studio you've done so much.

It's just gorgeous. And anytime we get to have a conversation, it's always a joy. So thanks. Yes And you actually were here in my old studio at one point Yes, which is kind of rare because most of my conversations are virtual, but you've actually been on the podcast here now You're in this studio. So you've really grown up with the well, that's good podcast Yeah, well anytime I get to come here and be with you guys, it's always, always super fun. So thank you for having me. Thank you. I know my mom loves you so much. We love your family.

So this is a blessing. This book is incredible. I told you whenever you got here, I was like the past hour, I've been diving into it and taking as many notes as I possibly can. But I told my team, I was like, Lisa's one of those people when you are able to do an interview with her, you just wanna, I'm like, God, just help me to tee her up, to just talk about all the things that are just so on your heart

that you feel so passionate about that you can speak so much truth into. I'm like, how do I just get out of the way, throw you softballs to hit home runs? And so that's the goal. But first and foremost, can you just tell us a little bit about your story for our listeners? A lot of them know who you are and are familiar with it,

but for those who don't, can you give us a little background as to how you got to the point of writing this particular book? Yeah. So I was married almost 30 years and definitely could at that point look into my future. And I didn't know all the details of my future,

but it made me feel very safe and secure to know how I was gonna ride out the rest of my life. And it was good. I loved my life. I really did. We had five kids, thriving ministry, and it just seemed to be a beautiful, sometimes challenging for sure, but a beautiful comfort to have that kind of family togetherness. And we loved being together

as a family. So you can imagine how shocked I was when I found out my husband was living a double life. And it was, I can't even describe for people what that did at that moment of discovery. And then the trail of pain that I continued to walk through, I didn't want to lose my family. I loved my husband, I loved my kids, I loved our family unit, and I could not fathom, I couldn't even say the word divorce and I think there were so many factors that played into what happened but addictions were a part of that story and I had

grown up in a family where we didn't face addiction so I didn't know what to look for. Yeah. And quite honestly I didn't want that to be our story. So it felt better to me to say, I could sense some things weren't right, but before I discovered the affair, I just had other things that I could attribute it to. The five kids are growing up, they're going off to college, the family dynamic is changing,

his career is busy, my career is busy. But then there was a moment where it became undeniable. So after that, I spent years trying so hard to make this work. And in the end, I had to accept a very, very hard reality. The very last year of separation for us, and out of the past 10 years, we were separated five of those years.

So it was on again, again back together not together and but the last year I felt very convicted that I had worked harder on him than he was willing to work on himself. And so the Lord really said Lisa you can try to be his wife and you can try to be his friend but you cannot be his savior. And so I removed my hands and I left room for God to move for another whole year. And when I stepped out of the way and just kind of turned him over to himself at the end of that year, it was absolutely undeniable that that marriage was no longer viable. So I didn't walk away, but I did choose to make a very, very awful, hard decision to accept reality.

Well, I remember hearing you say one time about, it was really important to you that you left room for God to move in that. What did that, what does that look like? And what did that look like for you, particularly to give space for God to move, but then know, okay, now it's time. You know, step away.

Well, a big part of that is being okay with sitting in uncertainty. And that's really, really hard for me to do. It's like for an entire year, I felt like I would get speaking engagement requests. And I'm like, I don't know where I'm gonna be a year from now or two years from now. You know, there was just so much uncertainty

and my personality, I like certainty. I really do. I don't like to get caught off guard. I don't like there to be this great mystery around my life, especially not the big buckets of my life. And certainly marriage was a big bucket of my life. And so, but part of that was living especially not the big buckets of my life. And certainly marriage was a big bucket of my life. And so, but part of that was living

in that uncomfortable tension of being uncertain, but trusting God when I absolutely could not see the future and the little bit I could see, I didn't want to walk toward. And it's hard to walk toward a future you don't want. So leaving room for uncertainty. The other thing is for me not to make major decisions about my future. You know, it's like people would say like, are you, you know, are you gonna keep your house or you're not gonna keep your house? You know, are you gonna stay in ministry?

Are you not gonna stay in ministry? And so, I just had to say, I don't know. Wow. And that was also really challenging. But leaving room for God to move really means removing my hands off of that situation, letting God be God, and starting to really work on my side of the street. So it's not like I didn't do anything that year, but instead of working on someone else, I chose to work on myself.

Good. And I would go to my therapist and just say, okay, there are some issues that I need to deal with. I was a classic enabler and I still have those tendencies. Sometimes it's hard for me. I'm a very compassionate person. There's like this paper thin line between compassion and enabling. And so, like I really had to work on that.

I had to work on codependency. And what's ironic is I'm a very independent woman. But here's how codependency played out for me. I need you to be okay so I can be okay. So what can we do to make sure you're okay so I can feel okay because I want to feel okay, okay? That's so real. Like, are we all on the same page, okay?

Okay, I get that. And I remember telling my counselor, I was like, I don't like that I'm dealing with codependency. And he said something so sweet to me. He said, Lisa, if you have a belly button, you struggle with codependency, okay? So it kind of normalized it a little bit for me. But there were things that I had to work on.

And part of the reason that that year was so bit for me, but there were things that I had to work on. And part of the reason that that year was so important for me is because I was dealing with intense loneliness. Loneliness like I'd never ever dealt with before. I had always lived with other people and I went from having a house full of so many people, my husband, my kids, their friends. I mean, we were the hub of all activity, you know? So I went from a house being so loud

and so full of activity to when my last child left home, so did my husband. And so again, in one of my therapy sessions, I was talking to my therapist about those intense feelings of loneliness. And he said, Lisa, you're gonna need to go home and sit alone with your own thoughts and learn to be okay. And I thought, I just paid you for an hour.

And you told me, I told you I'm lonely. And you told me to go home and sit alone with my own thoughts. Like who gave you this education? But he was absolutely right, because I couldn't sit alone with my own thoughts. And the one person I knew I needed to move forward with was me.

And I didn't know how to move forward with myself. And so that year became a very, very hard, but precious time of me learning to be okay, just with being with me. Also during that year, we went on a family vacation, just me and the kids. And at first I was the designated photographer because they're all parts of couples, you know?

And then it dawned on me, I don't want to just be in the group pictures. I wanna mark this moment of beauty for myself. So I remember the awkwardness of handing the phone to one of my kids and saying, will you take a picture of just me? And it was so awkward. It looked like I had never had hands before.

I just grew hands and I didn't know what to do with them. I mean, it was like so awkward, but I was proud of myself. That year I learned how to be okay, being me, being with me, and trusting God in so much uncertainty. It's amazing. It's so cool.

I'm like cheering you on again. I remember that. Like I remember seeing those pictures on Instagram. I think y'all went to like, was it? Alaska. Okay, yeah, yeah. All the different places y'all went and seeing those pictures.

And it was like so cool just like rooting you on and seeing where you're at and seeing you like step into this healthy version of, this new healthy version of you. Well, fam, it still hasn't cooled down much here in Louisiana yet, but I am thankful to sleep in my cool and comfy Miracle Made sheets.

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go to trymiracle.com slash woe and use the code WOE to claim a free three piece towel set and save over 40% off. Again, that's trymiracle.com slash woe to treat yourself. What was so amazing about just your journey too is that is like very, very hard stuff, but you have now not only begin to overcome those hard things and continue to overcome those hard things,

but you're helping lead others to overcome them in their life as well. I mean, you've written several books throughout this journey with just so much truth and even your podcast, like just so much theology, diving into the word on how to get through the messiness of life, through the truth of God's word. Like it's just very powerful how you have continued

to live out your life and lead other people because you did not have to do that. And I'm so thankful that you've chose to do that. One of the things even, and it's like advice you just gave, I hope all the Woe That's Good listeners really caught this because this is a Woe That's Good moment. It's just being okay to say,

I don't know what the future holds. I was just thinking about that. That's so powerful because so many people ask you like, hey, what does the next five years look like for you? What does the future hold? And like, you wanna come up with this answer to sound better than maybe what it is, or you wanna come up with this answer

to look impressive or whatnot. And sometimes it just doesn't feel that way. Sometimes you really just have no idea and just the freedom to say, I really don't know. I'm walking in that with God right now. I just love that piece of advice you just gave. So there's some things that you didn't know, but then there are some things you felt certain of.

I remember hearing you say the words like, I will never date again. You know, you're very clear in like, I don't know what the future holds, but I will never date again. I'm sure I said that to you. I'm sure I said it to your mom. Yes, I got wind of this.

I will never date again. So you and my mom are great friends and that was just something that you didn't see coming. But now if people have been tracking along with your story, you are now remarried to an amazing man who's actually here in the studio today. And that has been just so beautiful to get to see on social media

and get to hear from the different times that I've seen you and got to meet him. How did you go from I will never date again to being where you're at now? Well, when I said I'll never date again, I really meant that because I didn't ever want to attach my wellbeing to the choices of another person that I had no say so over.

And so I had just, I think I was still in a state of shock of losing my marriage and I just couldn't envision myself. I like to break life down into these micro moments and imagine like this little moment. And the moment I couldn't imagine is having another man walk up to my front door and for me to walk down the sidewalk and get in a car

and like go off on a date with another man. I couldn't imagine it. And because I was looking at those micro moments, I couldn't imagine another man stepping into my family. But the biggest micro moment is I would stand in my closet. And I had now let my clothes expand to the whole closet. And I remember saying, could I imagine myself sharing a closet with another man? No, no, I don't want to share my closet. So there were serious moments. There were funny moments. But my oldest daughter said to me, mom, can you not say never?

You taught us when you were raising us not to live in extremes. And so maybe just say not right now. And that was really wise advice. And so I stopped saying never, but I also knew that I needed to be healed enough not to attract the same kind of dysfunction that I had been in because that dysfunction felt normal to me.

Wow. And so I needed to make sure that I worked on my own healing because my therapist said, "'Your picker is broken.'" And you have to be careful how you say that, but yes. That's actually really good advice for someone to say to you because that's so true. Right after you get out of a relationship so often often people get right back into a very similar. Yes, because we're attracted to what's normal

But when dysfunction has been your normal, especially for me, it was dysfunction, you know for a long long time many many years And so also I had to make the decision that I didn't want to need someone else to help me heal that I didn't want to need someone else to help me heal. Because that was something I need to journey through on my own. Because if I needed someone else to help me heal, I would want a wrong kind of person for my future. And I needed to heal until I was free enough to want the right kind of person

and to discover what is it that I want. So it took me years. It was a really long process, but I'm so thankful. I did not go on a date for over two years. Even after the divorce was finalized and all the dust had settled, and I just knew that was not what I needed to do. Also, my kids weren't ready. The first time I tried to consider going on a date,

they did an intervention. An intervention with the kids? They sure did. Oh no. They called my therapist. Oh no. And said, we don't think that she's ready and we need to have a family intervention.

Oh my gosh. So, in that intervention, I said, look, you guys, I love you and I respect you. I'm not gonna let you dictate my future, but out of honor of your request, I'll wait another six months. But after that, I'm gonna make this decision for me. Wow.

And so, you know, there were a lot of dynamics because this time it wasn't just me being single. I was a single mom and I have a lot of people. And so it was a big decision. But eventually I decided to go on some dates. The first date I went on, I had some friends of mine set me up with someone who used to be a Dateline correspondent

and I love that show. And so I was so excited and he was a great guy, not my guy. And after six weeks, I saw some red flags and I was so proud of myself because I recognized them and I was able to say, not for me, you know? And then the next guy I dated, the same thing. After six weeks, I really was able to acknowledge red flags and I just said, great guy, not my guy, you know? And then I decided, oh, to go on a dating app. I love this. This is giving hope to everyone right now.

I just love this because I have a friend right now who I've been like, you gotta get on the dating apps. It's okay, like you got to. And there's just like this narrative that like, no, like that is not gonna be my story. But I'm like, but it is some people's story. And when like God can work through that, just like he can work through anything.

And so I just love that this is how this happened. This is amazing. Well, when I first decided to go on the dating app, my kids all said, mom, this is so trashy. We cannot believe that you would do something trashy. I'm like, look, I'm not trashy. So this isn't gonna be a trashy experience, okay? Now that's good.

But look, it is wild out in the street, Sadie. I'm just saying. I know everyone is made in God's image, but some of the profile pictures beg you to not believe that. And so I just wanna say, I don't encourage it unless you have a strong support system of people walking beside you.

That's good. And also limit your time on them because it can be a really wild, discouraging place. People get catfished on there. And it's easy to present through a picture what you think people want to see but then you know if you go on a date with someone it's pretty apparent that their profile doesn't really line up with who they are and that happens a lot yeah and so yeah advice and also your kids are rock stars like I think that you and the girls need

a podcast because the intervention the mom mom, no, this is trashy. The commentary from the girls is killing me. Look, if you saw our family text thread, if I just did a podcast and read my family text thread every day, it would be reality podcasting. It would be reality podcasting, and I would be tuned in would be tuned into every episode. That's so funny.

But yeah, it was, I needed my support system to walk me through this. As a matter of fact, I had two of my best friends that before I went on a date, they would FaceTime with the guy. And- Oh, that's cool. Yes, and I, you know, and any guy that wasn't okay with that, I knew it wasn't my guy.

And so I knew when I saw Chaz's profile, first of all, he stood out so much in the whole list of other profiles. And by the way, I did incognito feature, so no one could see my profile. I could see men's profiles, but they couldn't see mine unless I handpicked for them to see my profile. And I really liked that feature.

But when I saw Chaz's profile, I thought there's no way he's real, because there were certain things he wrote in his profile that really meant a lot to me. One of them is he was declaring God is great. And if you've ever heard me speak, one of my favorite declarations that I make is God is good, God is good to me, and God is good at being God.

And so that meant a lot to me that he was declaring so boldly, God is great. And then he also said he was looking for someone who had done their work because he had done his work. And you only know that phrase if you've actually done your therapy work. And then the other thing is he said, and I really am looking for someone who has a story to tell.

And I thought, well, that I have. I have a story to tell. And so, yeah, so the first time we talked, well, actually, the first time we were supposed to talk, he missed the date. Oh, no. I know. And it was really, really big. So I texted him and I'm like,

hey, are we still talking tonight? And he immediately called me and said, I'm so sorry, I've been out fishing with my son. And so I was like, do I give him a second chance or not? And so he said, can we reschedule for tomorrow night? And so I played it off so good. I said, oh, you know what? Tomorrow night is so much better for me than tonight.

I'm so glad you suggested that. Now that was not a true statement Sadie. I was sitting in my house waiting for this. Oh no, but you're like, but God is great. And that was not a true statement, Sadie. I was sitting in my house waiting for this. Oh no. But you're like, but God is great and he's so cute. My kids were doing movie nights. So technically I did have something else I could do. So that was fine.

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there was just something really special about him. He made me feel safe and that was important. And I can't even remember what all he said to make me feel safe and that was important. And I can't even remember what all he said to make me feel safe, but in that phone call, we both were laughing so hard. We just were having a great time. And for someone that I'd never seen in person, that was really cool.

Then the next day I decided to get brave and he sent me a text and said, "'Thank you so much for last night. You know, it was amazing conversation. I'd love to talk again. And I said, great. And I said, hey, I wrote a poem and I would really like to share it with you.

This was very bold because I had never texted another man a poem ever, my entire life ever. But I sent it to him and the response that he gave back, he said, I'm sitting in my truck crying. Wow. Your words really touched something so deep in me. And then he said, I would love to fly up to Charlotte just to take you to coffee.

Whoa. And that was- That's so sweet. Wasn't that so sweet? Yeah, to fly up for coffee. I know. That's so sweet. And so, but as we continued to talk, I was like, why don't you not just come up for coffee? I know. That's so sweet. And so, but as we continued to talk, I was like, why don't you not just come up for coffee? Why don't you actually, why don't we like,

you get a hotel room and I'd love for you to like, just see what my life is like up here. He didn't know anything about me. I was gonna say, he didn't know who you were. So he's getting this poem and if you've ever read Lisa's writing, it is absolutely beautiful. I've actually been in a room where you read a poem to a friend that had every single person

in tears. So I can only imagine on the other side of the screen, him reading those words being so struck by how beautifully written they were. And I can only imagine the words that were through that text. So that's so crazy that he didn't know who you were. So he's just getting this text from kind of a stranger thinking, wow, she's a great writer. You have a gift.

And not even knowing like who you were. So he comes and meets you to take you on a date at this point, does he know who you are? No, because we'd had the conversation. I said, I know it's pretty normal to Google people before you go on a date with them. But I didn't want him to Google me. And I said, you're welcome to do whatever you want,

Google me or not, but I would really like the opportunity to tell you about me myself. And he honored that. Oh, that's special. And so it was really neat. So I could slowly reveal like what I did and who I was in the Christian world, just in bite-sized pieces.

But it gave me an opportunity to tell my own story. And then it felt equal because he was also sharing his story with me instead of him walking into the date, knowing everything about me and me knowing nothing about him. I do think it's important to say the poem I sent him was not a love poem, okay? It wasn't roses are red, violets are blue.

For the record. We've only had one phone call, but I'm really into you. It was not that. That's so good. I love that. It was a poem about healing. Okay, that's good. I knew it was gonna be something very sophisticated,

not a rose or red, you know, I'm into you kind of situation, which would be more up my alley. But I love that so much. So one of the things you mentioned was like throughout dating other people before you kept seeing red flags and you were really proud of yourself for noticing that and being like, that's not what I want. And then here you are in this new relationship. I wanted to ask, like really kind of because you do this so well in the book, you got to read the whole book, everyone listening, because you go through a lot

of different red flags. But then, you know, you're about to go on this book. You gotta read the whole book, everyone listening, because you go through a lot of different red flags. But then you're about to go on this date with him, have a phone call, and he can't do it. He forgets the time. I think some people go like, oh, that's a red flag. But that's not necessarily a red flag. That's just like, oh, he forgot the time. Can you talk about what actually is a red flag

and the things you notice that you go, okay, this is something that is a red flag, I don't need to perceive it versus something that's just like a little mistake because you're human. Well, there's a big difference between a mistake and a pattern. That's good, yeah. And so we all make mistakes and I need to give grace to people when they make a mistake. But I also have to be honest with myself

when it's not just an isolated mistake if it becomes a pattern. So if he would have missed the next night, I would have been like, okay, I'm out, right? But he didn't, he made a mistake and then it was not a pattern. And so, I knew that I needed to give him grace. I think what's really important

as you think about the red flags in the book, I write about 11 categories of red flags. And those categories are different levels of seriousness or severity to someone. And it's going to be different and personal to everyone because of your family history, because of things you've been through in your past. There's a red flag that might be super severe to you. That's not serious to me. Yeah, that's true.

But the categories are important. The most serious category, which should concern us all, is immorality. And so I walk people through scenarios of what it might look like if someone is missing a moral compass and they sin and they don't care how it affects other people and they're not even willing to acknowledge that it's wrong. They just don't know right from wrong or they know it and they don't care about right from wrong. And so that category is very, very serious. But then there's another category called irresponsibility, right? And it's like you ask someone to pick up something from the grocery store and they forget,

and then the next time they forget, and the next time they forget. Now see, it's a pattern. And so now this is a legitimate red flag. And it's not on the same level as immorality, but they all, if these red flags go unaddressed, they will all become roots of distrust in the relationship. And the number one killer of relationships

is simmering resentments. And what feeds simmering resentments is distrust. And what we don't trust, we'll try to control. And so you can see the dysfunctional dance that can start to happen if we ignore red flags, or if we're afraid to call out a red flag. As I wrote these red flag categories and I went through them,

I knew they were important for three reasons. Number one, you really do need to know when you get that ick feeling and you're feeling like I can't trust someone, these 11 red flags will help give voice to why you might be feeling ick and what kind of trust is at stake here. these 11 red flags will help give voice to why you might be feeling ick and what kind of trust is at stake here.

The second thing is if we don't tend well to the red flags, they become roots of distrust. So if you're in a relationship where there's this bubbling distrust happening all the time, it's important for us to know what is at the root of those distrust feelings. And so these will really help you identify that. The third thing that I liked about the list of the 11 red flags

was it created some self-awareness in me. As I read through these and I was writing the examples, I had no problem with some of them, just writing all kinds of examples. And the reason is because I sometimes do that. And so as I was reading back through editing my own work, I stopped and I said, oh shoot, I might be feeding some distrust in some of my relationships.

So it serves three really important purposes. Really good. Yeah, that's really good. When I was reading them, I was like, this is so helpful and so good. Because yes, sometimes you remember things of the past and then sometimes you see it in yourself and you're like, okay, man, what do I still need to walk through healing in these areas? One of the things that you said when you were talking to him

was that you just felt safe around him. You talk about characteristics of a safe person, I guess maybe like green flags, you can call it. What were some things that, what were some of the things that he did that made you feel safe upfront? Well, trust is made up of safety and connection. And so when you've had your trust broken before, it's very tempting to take one of those to an extreme and diminish the other. So for example, some people are so desperate

to keep the connection in a relationship that they minimize their own need for safety and they start ignoring red flags, overlooking things they shouldn't overlook, minimizing what actually happened, and not telling people around them the actual truth of what's going on because they're so desperate to keep the connection. The other side of this is we're so desperate for safety that we minimize connection because we don so desperate to keep the connection. The other side of this is we're so desperate for safety that we minimize connection because we don't wanna take the risk that all relationships require. So the goal is to bring those back in tandem.

If we want good trust in a relationship, we have to have connections that are safe because trust is the oxygen of all human relationships. You starve a relationship of trust and you'll starve it of vibrancy and possibly even starve it to death. So I knew that trust was gonna be a really important factor as I stepped into the relationship with Chaz.

One of the things that he did that made me feel safe right away was not Googling me. When I didn't say, don't Google me. I just said, I would love the opportunity to share about me. Yeah. When I- I didn't say don't Google me. I just said, I would love the opportunity to share about me with you. And that really built some solid trust right from the very beginning. But another thing is as our relationship progressed,

I would sometimes get triggered because I had so many experiences with my ex-husband that now to anybody else, it would have just meant nothing. But to me, it made me feel terribly unsafe. And I talk in the book about one of those experiences. Whenever I would see my ex-husband pack a suitcase and announce that he had to go out of town and it was pretty quick,

the sight of him wheeling his suitcase away when I could feel something wasn't right, it was such a massive heartbreak to me because it made me so, so afraid. And in that instance, I should have been afraid because that wasn't just a trigger, that was actually a huge red flag. And the discernment that I was having

that something wasn't right was spot on in that situation. But when Chaz and I started dating, I remember one time something came up and he also had to leave pretty quickly. And the sight of him turning and wheeling his suitcase away from me when I wasn't expecting him to leave quite so early and that movement of him wheeling a suitcase for me,

it triggered massive fear in me. And I held it together, but he could see it on my face. So he got in the truck, he drove just a little ways down the road, and he called me. He said, hey, what's going on? Are you okay? And I just burst into tears,

and I said, you're doing nothing wrong. There was nothing wrong with you needing to leave a little bit early. There was nothing wrong with you wheeling the suitcase away from me. It was just too close to a memory that I have that meant extreme danger in my life. And I sometimes can't tell the difference between present day

discernment or a trigger from past pain. And so I need to work on this. And he said to me, what do you need? Do you need me to come back? Do you need to look at my phone? Do you need access to my email? Do you like, what do you need? And just the fact that he didn't get defensive,

he didn't get angry. If he would have said, seriously, I've never given you a reason not to trust me, like what in the world? If he would have said, seriously, I've never given you a reason not to trust me, like what in the world? If he would have had that reaction, things would not have gone well, because oftentimes that kind of defensiveness means something is wrong.

But because he was patient and kind and understanding, boy, that built trust in our relationship. Now I did follow up with a friend of mine who's a betrayal trauma specialist. She's a therapist as well. And I asked her, I did follow up with a friend of mine who's a betrayal trauma specialist. She's a therapist as well. And I asked her, I was like, look, I want to write about this. How do I tell the difference

between a trigger and discernment? And I expected her to give me a formula, right? If this, then this, then it's a trigger. And that's a red flag, right? If this, then this, then it's discernment, you know? But that's not what she said. She said, Lisa, you're gonna have to investigate. You're gonna have to ask the questions.

You're gonna have to say, like, what do I need to feel safe? Because we don't need to be told we're safe. We need to feel it for ourselves. That's so good. And I kind of paused when she said investigate and I thought, I don't, I feel weird about that, right? And she said, when you're with the right person,

you won't feel weird about it. So true. Yeah. And Chaz over and over and over has proven I'm with the right person because now very rarely do I need to investigate. But if I do need to ask questions because I'm afraid, his kindness and his patience

just tells me everything I need to know. So good. Look, where there's smoke, oftentimes there is a fire. And so it is important for us to feel out the situation and to investigate and ask those questions. But if we sense that something's not right, where there's smoke, typically there is a fire. And if we ask those questions and it's pointing in the direction that yep, this is a legitimate concern because of their defensiveness or an

accusation or telling you you're crazy, It doesn't really matter if it's a full on house fire or a candle that's burning, because you hold your hand over that and you're gonna get burned. So I just want to give someone permission right now. You have felt weird about asking some of the tough questions. You felt weird about investigating. And yeah, we don't wanna take it to an extreme,

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I am so grateful that you just shared all that because for me and my life, like that brings so much freedom to things that, and even just confirmation to kind of where I was at in the past. And I'm just thinking this is gonna help so many people. So many times when you're talking, I'm just smiling because I'm so grateful for the words you're saying. Like, thank you for researching this.

Thank you for diving into this. Thank you for asking the hard questions and then writing it with the words that you've written it with so that we can understand. And it can give language to those things that we feel. It's kind of funny because when me and Christian talk about our dating relationship, sometimes we joke that I was FBI agent Sadie Robb

because I was like an investigator, which I do, I'm not proud of, but also I had had such a, some bad experiences. And so coming into my relationship with Christian, I was very skeptical. And we all, we tell this story about one night and it was a trigger moment for me where he had told me that he was at his house

with his family. And then I looked at his location later and this is like, it was nothing. He was literally a bonefish girl with his family, not his house. But because I thought he was at his house and I saw his location somewhere else, it like really freaked me out

because I had been in a past relationship with someone who was very well known and he had told me he was doing homework at his house one night and because he's well known, I was getting tagged and pictures of him at a bar with girls. And so all of a sudden,

that was a pattern in my old relationship that I had seen, he would tell me he's at home and then I would see he was somewhere else. So when Christian told me he's at home and then I would see he was somewhere else. So when Christian told me he was at home and then I saw his location somewhere else, it did not matter where it was, bonefish girl with his family or not, it was just something that I'm like,

why did you tell me this if you were there? And he was like, well, I was at home. That was 20 minutes ago. I just didn't tell you I left or whatever. Well, anyways, he like came out of the restaurant and talked me through it, like talked me through just how I felt and was so patient and so kind and like just listened and let me share

and it made me feel so safe. Well, then of course he had to go inside to his parents later who was at dinner and they're thinking, she's crazy. Like she has trust issues, all this stuff. Not really, they're so kind and so amazing. But they were a little concerned because they were like, why doesn't she trust you?

And later, now that we're married, I remember I brought that up to his mom at some point. I was like, hey, I'm kind of embarrassed about this story that happened a long time ago. But I just want to let you know that had nothing to do with Christian or our relationship. That was something that happened in my past. And I was working through triggers at the time.

And to the point of triggers versus discernment, that is really hard. Because I think sometimes, yes, in the past, that was discernment. But right now, it's a trigger. And that is really hard to tell the difference sometimes. It's the same for me with fear. Sometimes I'm like, OK, is this fear?

Or is this me discerning something? It's just same for me with fear. Sometimes I'm like, okay, is this fear or is this me discerning something? It's just anxiety. And I feel like that really is when you have to investigate, do I feel anxious about something? You kind of go down the line, ask God, for me, it's like ask God the question, where am I at, self-evaluate. And so I think I used to kind of be embarrassed

about myself being the FBI agent, Sadie Robb, and sometimes it was extreme, but at the same time, I was just figuring out how to trust again. And I was figuring out the kind of person Christian was and his response and the way he would answer questions and dive into it with me and get to know me and seek to understand, like, I trust him so much now

and I'm not that way with him now. You know, that's been so long since there's been any kind of conversation like that, but it did take time to get to the place that we're at now. So just like the language you put to all this is so helpful even for me thinking back and like, yes, I experienced that so much. And so thank you for sharing. You and I had a similar experience going to Dr. Amen and getting our brain scan. What was that like for you seeing just the impact some of your past has had on your brain

and how did that like give you, I don't know, like what did that do for you? Because for me, it was like so crazy to see the effects that it had for me, but then also know like, oh, I can heal though, like there's hope. What was that like for you? Well, I had always been very hesitant to label some of what I'd walked through emotional abuse

because I just felt like physical abuse is easier to identify. It's very serious. Emotional abuse is also really serious, but harder to like have a picture of what that is. So I remember when I went to Dr. Amen and you know you have to do lots and lots and lots of tests. Well when he put up a picture of a healthy brain and then put up a picture of my brain, the thing that stood out and that he and I discussed

quite a bit was I had four anxiety centers that were completely lit up whether I was at rest or whether I was active. And those four anxiety centers that were completely lit up, whether I was at rest or whether I was active. And those four anxiety centers, they're in the shape of a diamond and he called it the trauma diamond. And he was able to walk me through the different parts of the trauma diamond and explain to me some of the after effects.

If you have this center lit up, this is probably gonna be something that you're gonna have to deal with in your life. So the top one was PTSD. Well, I had done EMDR, which is a wonderful therapy method that someone qualified knows how to do. And I'd been through that.

And Dr. Amon said, I can tell that you've done EMDR because I see the remnants of PTSD, but it's getting so much better. Wow, that's so cool. Isn't that so encouraging? That is so cool. Now, the other three were things I still need to work on. One of them, he said, this right here, when this stays lit up and it is lit up in you,

you're gonna be tempted to go into thought spirals and catastrophic thinking. And Sadie, I'm just telling you, if you ever wanna know a worst case scenario, call me and I will think of it like that. It's not hard. I can spiral right down into that, right? But because I could see there's a reason why I have this,

it made me feel less crazy. Yes, me too, yes. And that was really important. And then there's another center that was lit up where I will sometimes misread cues. Well, of course that makes sense. If you misread a social cue with someone, you can jump to a conclusion like we were just talking about,

like be super triggered in your pain. Does that mean that they're gonna do something to me or they're gonna say something about me or they're gonna say something about me or like they don't really like me or what is that? And I never struggled with that before. But now because that anxiety center is lit up, I have to really watch. But at least now because I know the pain

and it's not just that I feel the pain, I know what it is. And when you feel the pain and then you know the pain, then you that I feel the pain, I know what it is. And when you feel the pain and then you know the pain, then you can heal from the pain. And it gave me things to work on. But the biggest thing I walked away with was saying, I now see physical evidence of emotional trauma and I'm not gonna hesitate to use the words

emotional abuse. Yeah, man, that's so good just to like see it and then be able to say that's what it is because that was the same for me. I had just walked through things like that where it's like hard to put language to and you almost feel like, was it that? I'm not really sure if it was that.

And then, you know, people might say, and it's sometimes the people who are direct to you, you're being dramatic and it's all that. And so you're like so confused and manipulated. And whenever I went to Dr. Amen, Krishna had just gotten married and I was so grateful he came with me because he was able to see it with me. And Dr. Amen was able to kind of walk us both through

what I had experienced because I just had a really hard time putting language to it. And then when you just see it, it was like the emotional abuse and trauma that I had in my brain and then my thing that was so lit up was like thoughts that just are on a loop. And I had just had my like past on a loop, you know?

And it was so helpful to see that and to just help for me to know and to be accountable to myself, like get off the loop, like get off the track, you know? And so, you know, for those listening, you don't necessarily have to see your brain to know that those things are happening. You might be on a loop and your brain is literally on a loop.

You know, like you're gonna have to really work towards getting out of that and having the accountability of someone to do it with you, whether that's a therapist, which I highly recommend, a counselor or a spouse or a mom, a dad, someone who you really trust to walk through those hard things in life with is so important. Actually, oh, go ahead. I was going to say you don't have to go get your brain scan.

Not everybody is going to have that opportunity. If you can do it, then great. I highly recommend it. But that's why it was important for me to write about it in, you know, I want to trust you, but I don't. And I list out those anxiety centers that were lit up in my brain and the after effects of those and what the scientific names are. But the reason it was so important for me to walk people through that is so that

they could feel less crazy. And they could read the words and go, Oh, okay. If I'm showing evidence of this, then that anxiety center's probably lit up in my brain too. Yep, that's what it is. That's so good. I'm so grateful. I'm so grateful that you wrote this book. It's just so good.

One of the quotes in your book that I had to bring up because we talked about anxiety and stuff like that, is you say, being brave is not something you feel, it's something you do. I thought that was just so powerful. Can you speak a little bit into just what that looks like whenever you don't feel a certain way, but it's something you just have to begin to overcome

and do. If you want to even share the story of the ocean, I thought that was so good. Yeah. Walk with us, connect to the land that connects us all. Grow with us, come together and make space for each other. Eat with us. Taste the many flavors of our cultures.

Laugh with us. Smile. Joke. And bring each other joy. Come. Walk with us. Indigenous tourism, Alberta. Well, sometimes we don't feel brave

and there's reasons why we don't feel brave. And yet we're forced to walk toward things in our future that maybe we don't want, but we have to face, right? And it's hard when you don't feel brave. And so what I learned is I had to start doing brave things. So I had to do brave until I felt brave. And one of the examples of doing brave was not facing some big humongous thing in my life, but listening for the cants and donts in my vocabulary. I love that. So this really came to my awareness when I went to the beach with a couple of friends.

Their names are Jess and Ann. And when we went to the beach, my definition of going to the beach is that I get a little cooler, put some ice in it, have an egg salad sandwich, some lime chips, some Reese's Pieces, a diet Coke, don't write me letters, I know it's terrible for me, and water, okay?

But I like it all to be very, very cold. So I like to put ice in there. Well, that morning I was standing in the kitchen and I packed everything and I went to get the ice and the ice maker was broken and there was no ice. And I don't know why I had such an immature response, but it was like the last little hard thing added on top of all the other things I'd faced

and it just broke me wide open. And I literally clenched my fist and I was like, if he would have never cheated on me, then we wouldn't be divorced. And if we weren't divorced, he would be here. And if he was here, he would know how to fix the ice maker and I can't fix this ice maker and I'm not gonna have ice. Okay, I know that was very immature, but it's real.

Hey, that's real though. That's so real. And then I stopped myself when I kept saying, I can't fix the ice maker, I can't fix the ice maker. And I just said, but what if I could? And so I Googled instructions. I'm terrible with written out instructions. So that didn't go well.

But then I remembered the YouTube and I could go and watch a video. And I thought, what's the worst that can happen? I break it worse, you know, it was already broken. But as God is my witness, I watched that video and I fixed the ice maker. And when that ice fell down and I heard it coming down and fell into my cooler,

it was such an epic moment of victory. And it wasn't because all of the really hard things in my life were solved. It's because I took a stand that day and I didn't reduce my life down to the limitations of living hurt. And instead of I can't, I said, but what if I could? It's great.

Okay, then the story continues. So great. So we're now got our little cooler, we got the ice, now we're going to the beach. My definition of going to the beach is my cooler, a chair, a book, and I sit in the sand and observe the ocean, right? And that was Anne's definition too.

Jess's definition was she didn't want to observe the ocean. She wanted to get in the ocean. And so she was like, "'Hey guys, I found three boogie boards. "'This is great. "'We're gonna play in the ocean.'" And I was like, "'Oh, I don't do oceans.

"'I mean, that is where sharks eat people every day. "'Jellyfish sting you. "'Shells can cut your foot. "'And I don't want to get my hair wet. "'So no, I'm not getting in the ocean.'" And I thought she would respect that boundary. But as we were walking down, I was first, Anne was second, Jess was the last one.

And I turned around wondering why she was being slower than us. Well, she had her cooler, she had her book, she had her chair, and she had three boogie boards underneath her arm. Rude, right? And we get down there and she had three boogie boards underneath her arm. Rude, right? And we get down there and she lays a boogie board in front of me, a boogie board in front of Ann. Doesn't say anything but she goes and jumps in the ocean. I rolled my eyes and I said, I don't do oceans. And I stopped myself and I said, but what if I did? And before I could

overthink it, I grabbed the boogie board, I went running toward the ocean. I don't want you to picture Baywatch Bay running. I'm 55, I was wiggling and jiggling, okay? But I jumped into the ocean, a wave tumbled me over, my bathing suit bottoms came down, it was just a whole thing. But after I pulled my bathing suit bottoms up, I stayed in that ocean and I played and I laughed.

And for an hour, I had no problems in this world. For an hour, I had nothing but joy and fun and laughter. And I stayed because my friend was there with me. And it was such a beautiful moment. And so now I call those doing brave things, rebellious acts of resilience. I've been a rule follower my whole life, so I'm not usually attached to the word rebellious. But rebellious acts of resilience, rebel against the cants and don'ts in your life so they don't turn into won'ts.

That's great. That is so good. I love that story so much because I, we have a lot of similarities. I'm a rule follower, all those things. I have some anxieties. I feel the same way about the ocean until I met my husband and he was like, are you kidding me? The ocean's the most fun.

And I'm so thankful for- Well, Chaz is a surfer. So, you know- My husband's from Florida. I was like, oh my gosh. You like live in the water. Yeah. So, but like like thank God for those fearless friends who like help you do fun things.

And I'm like so grateful even for my mom, like whenever I turned 19, I was really wanting to overcome some fears. And I'm like, what's a scary thing I could do? Skydiving. And guess who went skydiving with me? My mom. And so it's just so great to have a friend

who will like bring the boogie board and get you out of your comfort zone and noticing that in yourself when you're like, I don't do this or I can't do this. And so it's just so great to have a friend who will like bring the boogie board and get you out of your comfort zone and Noticing that in yourself when you're like, I don't do this or I can't do this even last week we went We were doing like the surfing or whatever scurrying behind the boat and I did not want to do it I was like I do not want to do this because everyone's gonna be watching me and I'm gonna be the one that can't get up and Then also whenever I can't get out I'm gonna be laying in the water, just waiting there for some weird animal

or fish to come get me. So I did not wanna do it. And Christian's mom, she never gets in the water. His aunt doesn't get in the water. And I'm like, I have two kids, when do I get mom status? I don't have to get in the water. And they're like, you're doing it.

So I'm like, oh my gosh. So I get in the water and I got up the first try and it was so fun. I know. And then I wanted to keep doing it. I had so much fun. The next day I was like, who's ready to go surfing? And like, I was just so glad I did it.

And proud of myself and like thank everyone for making me do it. And so yeah, you gotta notice those things in yourself and push yourself because you never know the fun on the other side of it. Last thing I wanna ask you, because this is such a crucial part of the book, is trusting God. I know we can't unpack it fully. We're nearing the end of the other side of it. Last thing I want to ask you, because this is such a crucial part of the book, is trusting God.

I know we can't unpack it fully. We're nearing the end of the podcast, which I think will send people off great to go read the book and get to just dive into what you've studied in this, even on your podcast, like I mentioned, theology. What's the actual title? Therapy and Theology.

Therapy and Theology, which is just a great title and incredible podcast. So talk a little bit about just how hard it is to even trust God after things like this happen, but how important it is to get back into that space. Absolutely. So there's a couple of chapters that I wrote very intentionally

dealing with our trust with God. And look, sometimes when you've been severely betrayed by someone you deeply care about, and it doesn't have to be in a marriage dynamic. It can be a friendship breakup. It can be a family dynamic. It can be with your parents. I mean, there's just a lot of reasons

why people have felt betrayed or let down in a pretty big way. But when that happens, sometimes we can feel almost betrayed by God. And I want to be careful how I say that, and let me unpack it. I was so confused why God didn't protect me from my husband having an affair. I was so confused why God didn't protect me from a divorce. Sometimes God protects us from things.

Other times, God protects us from things. Other times God protects us for things. And yes, He didn't protect me from a divorce. He didn't protect me from an affair. And honestly, those were the free choice of my ex-husband. So God didn't cause it, but He did allow it. But what God protected me for was being able to stand in the gap with thousands and thousands and thousands of other women

who have never heard these hard subjects talked about in a church setting. And you know, I'm on tour right now and each night, and it makes me cry to think about it. Each night as I stand on stage and I look out at the landscape of the women, thousands of women, and I see their fear, their confusion, their loneliness, their extreme anxiety, the uncertainty,

and I'm able to reinvigorate their life with hope because so many of them have quietly quit on hope. And when I'm able to share my story and help them feel less alone, and when I'm able to say, I have the benefit of looking back over this for 10 years, if you're in the middle of the thick of it, you're just going to have to leave room for the mystery of God. But also let me share with you what I now see. And one of the stories that I share is in 2017, I thought things were getting better with my ex-husband and then things fell apart again. And I was so devastated that time. I had to take three months off.

I couldn't do anything. I was just spent and just so sad. And so during those three months, I decided to make all the appointments that normally, I'm too busy to stay on top of. One of those appointments was to go get a mammogram. It wasn't even time for me to have a mammogram, but I just wanted to check it off the list.

That's when they found cancer. I was diagnosed with breast cancer and they had caught it so early that I had to have a double mastectomy, but it saved my life. And so then, like, God didn't protect me from things falling apart in my marriage again, but he protected me for life. And so I think sometimes in our life, we get so confused because we don't understand what God allows or we don't understand why it seems like the people who hurt us just got away with it. But rest assured, God will not be mocked and we don't serve a do-nothing God. God is always doing something and it's pointed in the direction of eventual good. And maybe it's good for us, but maybe it's also good for a lot of people. And we can't underestimate that God always has a plan.

And even if we can't see the miracle we're praying for right now, maybe we're walking in a slow unfolding miracle and God's revealing it by His daily provision for us. But if we keep our eyes on God is only great if He does this big miracle, then we will miss the micro miracles of all His provision around us every single day. It's just like when the children of Israel were in the desert and they cried out

and God gave them manna. The word manna actually means what is this? And so God's provision was all around them, but they thought God wasn't providing for them because they looked at manna and said, what is this? And I don't wanna be walking through fields of manna, crying because I feel like God's not coming through for me when it's just because I'm missing it.

God's definition of good might be different than our definition of good, but different can still be good. Wow. That is so beautifully said. It's so beautifully said. You know, it's funny, I just had this moment with my mom recently where she was kind of

eye rolling at something that I walked through years and years ago. And it was a really hard situation. And I get why my mom, as my mom, would still eye roll over it and be frustrated that it happened to me. And I told her, I said, you know what? I was just thinking about that situation the other day.

And I was like, and I just saw it from such a different lens. I was like, I really feel like God used that in a lot of ways to protect me in that season of my life. And I was unpacking kind of what the Lord had shown me that really was protection and really set me up to go this different direction and use this really hard thing to kind of bring me there.

And I was like, I don't think God did that to me. I don't think God made that other person do what he did. That was his decision again, but I do see God's hand in it now and I do see how he protected me. And it's crazy how sometimes, you know, you really can't see it in the moment. You know, we don't have the lens to see it in the moment,

but when you look back, you're able to see things with such a different perspective and go like, wow, God, you really did use that for good. And yeah, it wasn't my version of what good might've looked like, but it was yours. And you see that throughout all the stories in my life. Joseph is such a good example of that. Like didn't look good, but man,

he turned it into something good. And so I'm just so thankful for every word that you shared today. I said it at the beginning, you're the type of person you just want to softball and hit home runs and that is what you do so well because you're just filled with so much wisdom, filled with so much truth.

And I think really you're filled with so much love for people. You're filled with love for God and love for people and that pours out in such a beautiful way. So thank you for how you write, thank you for how you live, thank you for who you are and thank you for coming on this podcast to share. It was so good. You're so welcome, Sadie.

I love every minute I get to spend with you. ["I'm On My Way To You"]