WHOA That's Good Podcast - An Honest Conversation about Marriage: Sex, Saying Sorry, and Loving Each Other | Sadie & Christian | Preston & Jackie Hill Perry

Episode Date: September 24, 2025

Preston and Jackie Hill Perry (hosts of the With the Perrys podcast) are back for another real + raw convo with Sadie and Christian. This time, it’s all about marriage: staying accountable, confessing quickly and often, learning each other’s apology language, what they wish they’d known before saying “I do,” why sex with a spouse was so surprising, and how past traumas can sneak into your relationship. Jackie spills why she’ll never be a rom-com girlie, while Preston drops some solid advice for guys about to get married. Plus, Sadie and Christian share the best ways they’ve learned to support each other — without all the awkward trial and error. https://sadiepens.com — Get 10% off my favorite supplies and journaling Bible when you use the code SADIE10 when checking out! https://drinklmnt.com/whoa — Get a free LMNT Sample Pack with any purchase! https://covenanteyes.com/sadie — Visit the website to learn more and start your journey toward a healthier, stronger marriage today. Chapters:  00:00 God can handle all of our emotions 07:13 Being there for your spouse 12:30 Conflict resolution 14:10 Apology language 21:05 Power of confession in marriage 29:29 What we wish we knew about sex 42:07 Redemption for our past 49:30 Guarding your heart in marriage - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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The wound is healed. We're just asking about the wound. You got to try the story about when the merch guy failed you and kind of what it produced in you. Yeah. So I have, he actually wasn't my main merch guy. He's my merch guy that I work going out when I'm in L.A. And he, you know, he's actually of a different faith. And I was working with him trying to like lead him to the Lord, actually. But the day of my event, he was supposed to ship all of my stuff to the particular city. And then the day of my van, he told me like half of my stuff is not going to be there. And so I was like livid. And he gaslit me to. whole time, you know, act like it was my fault, you know, told me that I was being harsh. And I'm

like, bruh, you didn't make my merch. And I just remember having such, if I'm just being honest, unrighteous anger. Yeah. And, you know, I, like, I didn't feel like doing the event, mainly because a lot of people, you know, are looking forward to my merch. And my wife had to, like, gently remind me. I don't remember. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, why I'm actually here and to to have righteous anger. I'm pretty sure I said it was the devil. It was funny because, well, it's just, it's nice to hear someone just have like a real moment

right before an event because it's true. Sometimes things like that really do happen and you're just like, oh my gosh, it throws you off and you need someone to like speak the truth and love. What was like funny to me was that you went to Jackie and Jackie's like, have you prayed about it. Oh, yeah, that's what she said. That sounds about right.

And he said, he said, I don't want to pray about it. And she said, oh, that sounds like you manifest. Yeah, because I do think that when we are angry and we are sitting in our anger, I think we want our anger to comfort us more than prayer and God does. And so, you know, I think a lot of times when someone wrongs us and gaslights us, we want to, because we're made in the image of God and God is a God of justice, I think we want justice. I think that's a natural thing, but I think the way we try to get the justice is

godly we want to get justice by being mad at him and instead of praying to the god who created you and them and so i think it's frustrating when somebody that's godly comes along and reminds you did you pray no i don't want to pray he deserves my anger right now and it's like no like you actually deserve god's anger but because of the person of jesus christ you're not receiving it that's the gospel that's grace yep and so you owe him the same grace that has been given to you that's That's really good. I'm like, not to look at you. It's like when the pastor's like, don't look at the person besides you.

I'm like, hello. That's really good. Well, the anger thing, that you want, what did you say? You want anger to comfort you more than God. That was the part when we were at lunch that I said, that was what stuck out to me. Yeah, yeah, you said it first. Thank you. But no, that is so good.

I think for me, the thing that I can wrestle with is it's like how, so in a situation, maybe where like you are angry at whether it's a person or angry with the Lord and then in a split so basically I'll say we're a passion this past year and you got to speak at the first one didn't get to speak at the second one because you had the flu super sick we're doing the whole thing and I get in this place of like where I'm angry at the situation kind of angry with the Lord and kind of asking him why and then five seconds later say he's like well can you just please pray so it's like shifting that anger to like you did not want to no well part of it too is like it's like it's like how to not feel shame of like you're mad but then it's like god please heal it because then

it to me it feels like because you said to me you were like it would feel fake for me to pray right now because i'm still so mad that's fair that's real yeah yeah that's actually a very real emotion yeah but i can wrestle with that yeah and i also think that it's important and i have to this is actually me speaking to myself to know that God actually he can handle all of our emotions it's not like he doesn't want us to come to him with our anger

he just doesn't want us to be along with it it's like you can feel whatever you feel just fill it with me that's all God wants it's cool it's like be angry come to me with your anger you know what I'm saying like when you when you deal with that stuff on your own

you're gonna be messed up and so like I come to God be like I'm angry, Lord. I don't want to pray. And I literally feel my heart becoming more softer doing the prayer, which is, you know, because I came to the Lord. Because I think it's, I think it can feel fake when you come to the Lord without the honesty, you know, so oftentimes I will open it up with,

Lord, I don't want to do this. I honestly, I actually don't want to talk to you. She has done that a lot. I do that all the time. All the time. I actually don't want to talk to you. I feel away, but you are Lord. you are king you are like you got to remind your soul of what is true about him and then something just

it's not to say that the anger abates it just doesn't have the same sting you know like because i because i think especially when we see anger as like some anger is flesh so in the same way where you can be overwhelmed by lust you can be overwhelmed by anger so when it feels like that ah i'm like oh this is this is flesh at this point and i got to put that to death But you put it to death through his power. And so I am just a fan of telling God the truth. I don't want to be here, but you told me to. Yeah, I love that.

Well, it's what the Psalms, like, you see that all throughout the Psalms. Like, I've been so struck by reading the Psalms lately about just how real they really were with God. And some of the prayers that they prayed against their enemies, it's like, oh, I can't believe you saw that to God because it's so crazy. Dash their heads against the rocks, Lord. I was like, okay, tell me how you're really good. J.M.I. tells God he deceived him. I know, but like that's cool that the Bible obviously has it in there for reasons so that you can learn how you can talk to God, but also keeping in there what is true about God because God still is good and he still is holy and all that is true and it begins to shift your perspective. And like you said, your heart begins to soften even as you pray that with the real. I love how you said, it's not that you're faking it if you're not coming to him fake. Like you go to him, you tell him the honest and the real stuff and then he softens your heart. And why I want to do. to start with that question and even that story when a context of relationships is because in marriage

when two believers are married you're trying to you know iron sharp and iron it can be really hard when one person is really going through something and the other person is like trying to help them but it feels like no matter what you say it's just got to be annoying you know like how do you be there for your spouse and actually be helpful and not annoying but still speak truth you know Yeah, this is This is us It's hard He's the trying to be there

But irritating me Person So yeah Yeah You know I feel like we have this This in a couple of different Ways

I think a lot of times Especially early on in our marriage When Jackie will be going through something I would want to try to talk her out of it And then I started to I think I'm not going to say better word

a more specific word would be fix it fix it yeah fix her because I love her and I'll and then you know like when we're good

and when she's getting in a good mood you know we have like great conversations we laugh and stuff like that so it's kind of like and so the one

the Lord had to kind of convict me like that's the motive right there you're selfish you just you just you just want your Jackie back and you actually don't

like you need to be concerned about her not just her for you yeah right so that's one and then two I think what I've also learned is just learning how the power of presence

because I do think that a lot of times when people are going through something they don't need words but they just kind of need you to know like they need assurance like when the Baba says that you know it's not good for men to be alone like it's so

true like so I think a lot of times when people you know are going through something they don't need you to try to find the right words to get them out they just need to know that you're there and so you know i've learned that sometimes coming around her and just cracking a joke yeah or just being light or just talking lightly and just helping her temperamental that's that's really what i can i can be hot and cold very quickly yeah yeah and then too also not personalizing it i think i think i think we can make things so personal in our in our marriage and we can so easily feel like

your mood is indicative of how you like me. Yeah. And how you're showing, you know, and that's because we love each other, right? And so we can, we can make it so personal. Yep. And I think that God just kind of wants us to be like, you know, chill out. Yeah. That's something I had to work on with you is, like, just saying to you whenever I'm in a bad mood, this is not about you, you know.

She says that a lot. Yeah, I just have to say that. Because if not, he, of course, like, he'll feel like it's about him. you know because we're together all the time so he probably thinks he said something just something that made me mad but it's i'm like this is nothing to do with you right now i'm just and i'm not even ready to talk about it either or or i am and what whatever that looks like but i feel like that's been really helpful to like communicate and not keep the other person guessing why you're acting a certain way because clearly you can tell i know i'm not being the way

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If you don't like it, they'll refund your order. No questions asked. That's Drink Element, D-R-I. I-N-K-L-M-N-T dot com slash woe. Yeah, well, you to say it's so true, though, because it is, like, a lot of times it is our first instinct is to want to try to fix it because, yeah, you do, and it is selfish. And I think for me, the motive is, like, comfort. It's like, it's comfortable when we're not arguing, when you're not sad, when I'm not

for it, like, when it's just, yeah, when we're just jiving. Yeah. Peace. But then again, you know, there's not always going to be. that feeling, you know. Yes. I think we've come a long way from when we first got married to now. For me, it's the comfortability for it.

Because, like, and we grew up, obviously, you all grew up in, like, different homes, you know, so I grew up with parents who, they're, if, I don't think you like the Instagram, but I will use the Enneagram for the sake of this story. No criticism. They're an eight wing seven and a seven wing eight. So, like, big personality, like challenger, enthusiasts, all the stuff. So they have passionate conversations, okay? I like that word.

Yeah, you know. Because I didn't view it as, like, a bad thing. They would argue because they would both feel really passionate about something, but it wouldn't be, like, fighting. It was just, like, intense discussion, I guess. I'm not even trying to make it sound better than it is. It just didn't feel bad. It just felt real.

His parents are not like that at all. Everything's just good. It's just, like, they wouldn't even get into a conversation that would feel, like, challenging to one of their feelings. I've never seen that in their relationship. And I feel like that's true to your childhood. And so when we got married, I wouldn't think. That's a different dynamic. Yeah, I would not think what we were having would be like a bad thing or an argument or whatever.

But I would just come back at him with something. That's overstimulating. Start a discussion. And he's like, whoa. Wow. You know, because I'm a lot different than like his mom's personality type, you know? So I feel like used to you and be like, oh, I just want everything to be good. And this is like intense.

That's interesting. No, it is good. Like, it's fine. Yeah. So we've come a long way. How long have y'all been married? Five and a half years. Okay.

That's a long time. Yeah. To me it is. I think so. Yeah. So that's enough time to come a long way. Yeah, it is. Six years in November.

Because I feel like I have chilled out a lot, but also you've been okay with going, like, to have those conversations. Because to me, and I want to get into this, the whole apology language that you'll talk about, because I heard you say, and I want you all to share in your own words, but, like, sorry wasn't really what you wanted. It's not what I want either. I'm like, no, let's talk about it. And let's get to a place where it's better.

Whereas he just wanted to say sorry and it just be better. I'm like, it can't be better yet until we talk about it, which felt intense, you know? So talk to me about the apology like you mentioned, just learning how the other person is.

Yeah, so we have, I guess people would call it marriage counseling. I think it's marriage discipleship from one of my mentors, her husband, who's now like, becoming real cool with Preston or whatever. and they were just working with us through some stuff and they gave us this framework of apology language

which was like you basically take a test to see what what apology I guess serves you best and his was like he can handle sorry he just wants the thing to be acknowledged I'm sorry that I hurt you me you can say sorry that's cool I want a plan right so it has to be sorry same it has to be sorry in proximity to how are we moving forward from this point on how we're not

going to get here again right like i need because to me i need the assurance and the security that we're going to move in a direction where i don't have to feel this way again um and i think it i just i think we need those frameworks to help our communication because i really think the biggest issues in any marriage is how you communicate why you communicate when it's all about it's the talk and it's that. And so, yeah, it's really good advice. Yeah, I think with the apology language, one of the things that the Laura had to show me

when I first learned it, or when our mentors first started teaching us, it's just you have to have humility, quick, breast. Because I think with the apology language, it can kind of seem unfair how the other person wants you to apologize because that's not the way you receive it. And so for somebody who wants apology

with a plan, it can kind of feel like, that's doing the most. I say, I'm sorry. You know, but I think humility says the way they receive, I'm a sorry, or how they receive comfort from you, it's not the way you receive comfort. So you have to be humble to say, you know, like, my apology, it's not, it's not that my apology isn't enough, but if she needs a plan to feel safe, that's what I should do. in order to love her. And truthfully, both apology languages require humility because

whereas you got to humble yourself to think of a plan. And it's not like I need an Excel sheet. It's just simply like how are we moving forward? Yeah. That takes humility. It takes humility for me to say sorry in the first place. Yeah. You know what I'm saying?

Like I can be arrogant that way. I'm like, look at it. Like, so I really, in our marriage, I've had to do a lot of work to say, I can understand how that hurt your feelings. I'm sorry. You know? Isn't that crazy? Like, I remember when we first got married, I didn't know it was hard for me to say

sorry until you're married and then you're like, oh, my gosh. It's still hard for you to say so. What do you mean when we first got married? I was like going to walks over the first where I should remember like, who would argue I was like going to walk. I'd be like thinking to us like, this is so stupid that I can't say sorry. What is what is that, you know? ride and stubbornness but yes I still sometimes struggle but I have gotten a lot better she's getting a lot better too I have I've been saying sorry quick now you remember do you remember

like the second year of marriage like the first like what I don't know if it's the first time you said sorry I'll never forget you probably obviously you did not it was like a second year marriage I don't remember and and we were in the we had a little small apartment was probably the size it was like 750 square feet I remember the floor pan It was so small So we in our living room is hot And I just remember her

Like I thought That she was about to confess something to me The way she was looking like You're about to say something really hard Like well I'm nervous and she was like I just wanted to say Sorry It was so

And then she said something alone in the lives Like I'm just tired of you being You've been apologizing A lot of lately and I want to apologize to you And after that, it seemed like it became easier. Yeah. Because humility is something you have to practice. And I say humility because a big driving force for me isn't, it's going to sound bad, but really hear me out.

It really isn't merely love for Preston and respect. That's not a big enough motivator for humility for me. I'm just being honest. It's God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble. that is like it's in my brain where it's like your pridefulness towards him is an assault at me so I'm going to resist you

if you continue to move like that that scares me so it's like okay like and you died on the cross like seriously like you you died on the cross you Philippian said he did not count the quality we got the thing to be grass but emptied himself

like I this is like this is this is a low level of emptying to be like Christ so yeah it's so true man when you it's the greatest thing ever when scripture is your accountability and I feel like a lot of people don't view it like that because they don't read the Bible enough to know the words that it says when you know the words and it does it I don't want to say that's a haunting would be a bad word but it's in you you're like oh I know what I'm I know I know what I'm doing in my relationship with the Lord that's keeping me back because of my pride or because of my severance because of my jealousy

like I don't want that. And I heard y'all talking about confession one time and just like how quick you are to confess now. And that's the same with us. I mean, I feel like we have gotten to a point where we confess things so naturally because we know, man, if we confess her since one other, like, we'll be healed.

You know, like that's how we become more like Christ. And used to, like I was so scared of confession because it felt like that conversation you all probably had in your apartment where it's like, it's awkward, it's heavy, you don't know how to say it. Whereas now I can say, hey, I just want to let you know, I was feeling this way or this was what was coming up in my heart. Even confessing that has nothing to do with you, but saying like, hey, I was jealous of a friend today and I hated the way it made me feel and the way that I spoke or whatever, you know, because you know it's making you better.

Yeah, for sure. Talk a little bit about the power of confession in marriage and the openness. Yeah. Yeah. You want to go first? So, I mean, yeah, like for us, we've learned to, one, confess quickly to, to, not like let things sit but also too you know I've learned how not to confess so quickly because I do think that like sometimes I can confess things or even just say things so quickly

where I'm processing and I'm dumping so much on her like in real time in real time and so sometimes my like I'm the type of person I confess quickly all the time but sometimes I just want to confess and get it off my chest. and it can be too much for her. Yeah. And so she needs to process what she confess. She needs to sit with it, you know. And so I think one giving each other grace.

But I also think confession, confessing quickly just doesn't give room for the devil to have a foothold in your marriage. Right. And so, like, one thing I learned about, you know, just not even marriage, but the Christian faith, is that we have an accuser, which is the enemy who always wants to take us to trial. And there's no need for a trial if you confess. And so you actually just make your life easier when you confess. And so just bringing it to God first, I think is a big deal because I do think not just confessing to your partner, but how we confess to our partner, the right language. And in order so they can receive it well matters. And so after we confess to the Lord, like make sure you're confessing, you know.

And then also, so I just want to say this, too. I don't think that confession with everything with your spouse is beneficial. I do think that you need strong, like men need strong brothers in the faith that they can confess certain things to because some things can just be too much. It's like, oh boy, you confessing too much. Yes, I agree.

There's an example of that. Like, we went through a season where you were on tour and I was at home. Yeah. And, you know, it's kind of a thing when pressing this by himself, women be in his face and stuff like that. Yeah, I'm like, why is that?

It's crazy. And so he would come home and share all the stuff, which is, I think, respectable, you know, and honorable. But it was sometimes where I was like, all right, now. Like, I didn't heard this about 12 times. It's giving me anxiety at this point. So I was like, you need to go play PS4 with somebody

and had these conversations. You know what I'm saying? So, but I also think being sensitive to the Holy Spirit because someone can hear what he said and say, oh, like they can wiggle their way out of honesty and transparency because it's like, oh, well, if I don't have to tell my spouse everything, thing, then cool. I think the Holy Spirit will also identify things where it's like, no, but that, you do say that.

Y'all, anytime I get a good quiet time, it is such a blessing. But when I started using Mr. Pinn for Bible journaling, it was like a glow-up to my quiet time. Their pastel, highlighters, gel pins, and those transparent sticky notes are such a game-changer. And the best part is, nothing bleeds through those delicate pages of the Bible. Mr. Pinn was started by Christian teachers right here in Louisiana, hey-o, and they got over 1 million five-star reviews, so you know I'm not the only one that's totally obsessed. So I put together this little bundle with all my favorites to make it super easy for you to get started. And let me tell you, this makes for the best gift for the women in your life. They will love it. They cannot believe that the highlighters will not bleed through the pages. Okay, I want to show you a little bit of what's in the journaling kit. There's so many fun things. You have highlighters, and I just have two here as an example to show. you their colors are so, so cute. They even have these Bible tabs that have the books of the Bible on them so you can find it faster, sticky notes, all the things. And I actually want to show you in the Bible, like highlighting a verse. So I'll take the green highlighter and it'll show up really nicely on the page that you want it to show up on. And then I'll show you the next page so you can see that it doesn't bleed through. So here's the page that it's on. nice and green. And then on the other side, it is totally clear. So it didn't mess up the next page. Here's something else special just for you. You can actually get 10% off my favorite supplies and

journaling Bible whenever you use the code Sadie 10 at checkout. So just go to sadie pins.com and you will be directed to my favorites. That's sadie pins.com. Use the code Sadie 10 at checkout and check out the bundle with my go-to journaling supplies so that you can grab exactly what I use and make it your own. I think when you confess to true friends who have wisdom and the Holy Spirit in them, sometimes they help you know what you should share and whatnot. For instance, Christian and I have great groups of friends. Like, we're all married, you know, and so the girls are all friends and the guys are all friends.

And it's a pretty small group. And the guys, you know, have a Bible study and we have our Bible study. And, like, that's kind of our confession. We actually used to call it Confession Hour because it would just, it would just, was just the place that you really could share. And I remember one time I was opening up to the girls about something, and they're like, hey, you should go talk to Christian about that. I was like, you think I should talk to Christian about that?

I don't know, because it just felt like the thing that maybe I should just tell the girls. And they're like, no, I think you should talk to Christian about that. And two of them had examples in their life that they went and talked to their husband about something really similar, and it was very helpful. And so I did. I went home, and I was so nervous. It's so funny because, like, some things you confess, and it's like, it doesn't make you nervous. Some things you're like, oh, I really do for the nurse, but I knew the Lord.

Like, I had felt just confirmation that was supposed to do. And we had the best conversation. And it actually grew our relationship so much. I was super thankful for that, like, godly wisdom for them to tell me, like, that's something you should share. That's important. But I'm also thankful for the, that, you know, you have men in your life that you can confess things to because I do, I agree. Like, I've told him things that I'm like, if you told me that, it would make me feel anxious and I would go. my mind would go into crazy places, but I feel like I don't want you to not feel that you can share

that because I need to be strong enough in the Lord to handle that if you felt you needed to confess that to me. And I always want you to feel the freedom to be open in our relationship. I never want you to feel like you have to hide something because I couldn't handle it. But I also love that you have your guys that are helping you and praying with you and all of those things. So I think it is both. And I think that's so good that you spoke to like, wisdom in confession. A couple of years ago, Jackie said, I think it was a podcast or something and Jackie said some great, she said, your spouse is your community, but your spouse cannot be your only community. And I think that's so true because I think what spouses need is a community

to help them be better husbands, better wives, better fathers, better mothers. I think it really takes a community, we say it takes a community to raise a child, but it takes a community for all of us to be better. But I also think that it's very important for our spouses to be confident in the people that we have in our lives. And so your spouse, like you being confident in the men of God that he has, that he calls friends gives you confidence that if you're not confessing stuff to me, you're confessing stuff to people who are pointing you back to God and pointing you back to me. Yep. You know, and so I think that's what we need in marriage.

That's great. I think you did a whole podcast on guarding your heart in marriage. Is that true? Yes. Don't remember what we talked about. I like, I don't remember what y'all talked about either. I just remember. The title sounds similar. Guarding your heart in marriage, which. I don't even remember that title. Well, maybe I'm making of us. I remember the title. I was going to say. Maybe I made it up. And this is my plug for their podcast. If you don't listen to the periods, I don't know what you're doing, because it's so good. Most of, pretty much everything we brought up has been based off things we've heard y'all say on your life.

Yeah. So shout out to the amazing content that you guys are putting out in conversations y'all are having because these conversations are really, really important. And y'all do not shy away from the hard stuff. There was another title that I will bring up. And it was because, hey, I feel the freedom that y'all normally do not hold back. The title was, what we wish we knew about sex. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. That got like a million views or something. It did. It just got sex in it. But here's the thing. Here's the thing. This is why I want to bring it. up because we did a podcast one time about, well, I don't even remember our title, but Reeves and Lydia, about basically what we didn't know about sex. We had our friends on who have been very open about their previous past and different things. And then they came together

and dated purely and got married. And it was a beautiful story. So we talked about the past and what they wish they knew. And y'all did too. That was one of our most viewed podcasts. That's one of y'all's most viewed podcasts. Yes, it has sex in it. But more than that, I think people really are like they want to learn they want to know like how do you do this god's way how do you do this biblical way how do you have um something pure marriage all of those different things so it's like yes the world's putting out so much content on that but anytime the church talks about i think people are like oh i actually want to know can you all speak a little bit to the subject uh because i feel like that's something that would be very helpful for people yeah i think um i loki think we should do

part, too, to be honest. I like you think you should do. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, that might be a good idea. We're planning. I was going to say it's not low key. But I think considering where we both came from, right, so Preston had sexual experiences before marriage, I did not with men.

And so that whole arena was new to me, but we both came into it with history with watching porn. I came into it with a history of sexual abuse. all of that. So that automatically sets us up to low-key have some dysfunction around the topic, but we were ignorant

to the way that dysfunction would manifest. Because I think we assumed, oh, when we're engaged and we dating, we're feeling hot, you know what I'm saying? Like, we ready to go.

And I didn't... Hot bother. I didn't realize. Nobody warned me that sex would be difficult. Nobody warned me that sex would be triggering. Nobody warned him

that maybe he, he would not get it at the frequency that he was expecting. You know what I'm saying? So it's like, he's like, I'm abstinent. I'm giving my life to the Lord. I'm putting flesh to death. I'm not having sex with all these girls. So surely when I get married, the Lord is going to reward me.

But the Lord happened to set him up with somebody else sexually abused. So it's like all of this tension. And it was like no one warned us that maybe sex is a thing that God will actually use to sanctify y'all. It won't just be all rainbows and butterflies. And that's not to say that doesn't exist. But I think we have realized that that's something you have to work for. It doesn't just happen just because you said I do. That's so true.

That's so true. I think, you know, if young couples would truly be disciples by the church to know that, you know, sex might not look like how you think it may look like, I think that we would save a lot of people, a lot of heartbreak, a lot of disappointment. Because I think in the same way, you know, when. Women fantasize about their marriage day. Men fantasize about, you know, how much sex they're going to have with their wives. And when I disciple young men, now I have a framework to disciple them and say, man, like, you don't know how your wife's past trauma is going to show up in your marriage. So ask the Lord to help you be that husband before it actually comes. You don't really know how marriage is going to.

And he doesn't know how his trauma might show up. Because you can think having, wanting your wife sexually every moment of every day is healthy when there might be a measure of lust in it. There might be a measure of idolatry in it where your wife is not someone to love or to die for like Ephesians 5, but an object to feed from. I think when that's the perspective because it can look natural on the surface when it could still be rooted in trauma, a rejection, abandonment, and an unhealthy neediness. And so I think we both realize like, oh, we both have issues around this subject that we pretty much needed some therapy for before this whole thing started. And I also think that, you know, I think a lot of men, we have to just deal with the reality that society and wrong teaching has kind of informed us how we should look at the opposite sex and how we should treat women in bodies. And this is the reason why when we get rejected. and the marriage is so, it's so disappointing because society tells us that women should never

reject us. And so it doesn't give us a real full reality of a holistic relationship inside of the context of a marriage to say, no, your wife is a, is a, it's a complex, nuanced, human being just like you are. And her body is, even though like, like, our bodies are not our own, about her, like, y'all coming together is still a privilege that you should. shouldn't automatically feel like you you have the right to when you want it. And so I do think that that society teaches us that, no, you should never get rejected,

but that's not reality. And so I think a lot of men going to marriage is just, I'm going to do this. I'm going to do that. First of all, you probably don't know how. Especially if you grew up in, you know, like in church a whole life. I thought you were going to say something crazy. No, no, I'm just saying. Like, it's so like there needs to be some humility there.

Yeah. You know, you need to talk to some older men. to be like man like you know every woman body is different first of all and so I just think that we didn't need real honest conversations transparent conversations and we shouldn't just let people think that like this is how it's going to be in marriage like prepare people well 100% now I feel like you have to do part two I think we do oh my goodness it's so good because it's so helpful I mean I remember um we had Brandon and Brittany Lake on the podcast one time and they were like sharing about I don't even know if they shared about it on my podcast or while I was prepping for the podcast, I listened to them, talk about this.

And Brandon was sharing how he had like an unrealistic expectation of what marriage was going to be based off of movies he had watched. And like not even just porn, but like just movies, you know? And you have this idea of like when you come home to your wife and she's going to want you and all the sudden. And then when she does it, it can feel so disappointed and so hurtful. And I remember you listening to that and being like, man, I can really relate to that, you know? And, like, we had never heard someone else say that before, you know? And then especially someone else in the church is being, like, real about it. And it actually led us a really good conversation.

And I also remember when we got married, like, just a couple weeks in, we were like, you know, we were like have all these questions and all these, like, what the heck? And because you're, like, told your whole life not to do it and you, like, flee front, flee, and then all of a sudden it's like, okay, that can be kind of a hard thing to navigate. And I remember you were like, should I call? It was one of our like mentors who's a pastor of ours. And I was like so embarrassed. Like, oh, I don't know.

He's like, I think I'm just going to do it. So Christian called him. And before Christian even said anything, he was like, let me guess what you're about to say. And he was like, do you know how many of girls' friend group has called me and said the same, ask the same questions right after they got married? And from a pastor, it was really cool because he's like, we have to be willing to talk about this stuff, you know? Because if we're not, people are lost and confused. And all they know is what not to do in dating, but they don't know how to do it right in marriage. And that is a hard thing.

There's just something about fall that just feels fresh, right? New classes, new routines, new friendship. It's like the whole season is begging you to reset your priorities and get grounded in who you want to be. And that's why I love what Covenant Eyes is doing. Their Victory app helps you stay accountable with your screen time and protects your heart from the stuff that doesn't line up with the life that you're trying to build. Pornography and inappropriate content is everywhere,

but you don't have to face it alone. Victory helps block harmful content, monitors your screen activity, and sends reports to an accountability partner that you choose, like a friend, a mentor, anyone. And the best part, it's not about shame or guilt. It's about growing healthy and staying focused on your faith and your future and your goals. I think this is incredible that they have this.

Y'all, the truth is so many people. Girls and guys struggle with pornography. Struggle with their phone being an issue for them. And you don't have to struggle alone. And in fact, you don't have to struggle. You can actually overcome this. I mean, my husband is a living testimony of overcoming something like this. And it really started for him with accountability.

And so I just encourage you so much. I can't recommend Covenant Eyes enough. Go to CovenantEyes.com slash Sadie to learn more and start your journey towards freedom today. That's covenant eyes.com slash sadie. And I want to dispel just if there just so happens to be somebody listening that has the lie in their mind that you got to try it before you buy it. You know, like I need to watch certain things or I need to practice in certain ways

so I can show it with my spouse in a way that's impressive. I think it's satanic. And it's not even a thing. Sexual immorality. is not godly or holy. And I think you have to recognize that marriage is a covenant, a lifelong commitment between two people where you are continually learning how to be one.

And so even sex is a part of that learning, a part of that cultivation. Because truthfully, my body is not the same body as it was 11 years ago. So he's still learning me. His body is not the same. And our bodies won't be the same in 20 years. So there will be ebbs and flows of us,

continuing to learn how to please each other. And so I think if you see it as, no, this is a ride we're on rather than a destination, then you'll have a proper perspective. And then I also, that's so good, but I also would have just exposed an enemy in this ideology that we have to try before we buy it because sex outside of marriage or even exploring things outside of marriage, the enemy tells us that we got to, you know, keep this guy happy that we're dating. So let me do it.

And what you're really doing is you are accumulating. experiences that will not show a will when you actually get married. Say it one more time. You are accumulating experiences that actually will not be good when you, like this is the reason why men who

watch pornography get so disappointed because you're vicariously living through men who are not being rejected through porn. And so when your wife reject you, you, it's just God. Or when she has the body or when her body changes, like perversion has,

skewed your outlook, and it will affect how you show up, you know, having sex with multiple people that you had sex with him because you're trying to keep him because you think he's a husband. And now y'all didn't work out. Now when you actually get married, you're comparing this guy to your person that God actually wanted you to spend the rest of your life with. That's what the enemy wants. The enemy wants to affect your marriage before you actually say I do. Yeah, yeah. That's so real. Okay, so let's talk about that for a second because there are people listening. Well, I was going to say, too, that's what, well, I was saying the thing before we got married, that was what our pastor would talk about was that when you're dating the scheme

of the enemy is, like, the playing field is on, he's going to get you to try to have sex with your girlfriend or boyfriend every single day. And then when you get married, he's going to try to keep you from having sex with your spouse. So every single day. Every single day. So it's, it's still the same problem involving sex, but it's a different strategy that the enemy plays. So when you're dating, yes, he tries to get you to feed your flesh in that. But then when you're married, he tries to keep you. This old church mother said that to us once actually said, when you ain't married, he wants you in everybody bed. And when you is married, he only wants you in your home. It is true. It is true. It is true. But I feel like there are so many people listening

right now who are like, okay, this is me. Right. I'm in the relationship, we're not married, we're having sex, or I'm watching porn. I don't know how to get out of it. I don't know how to break up with the guy. I don't know how to make it right with the guy. I don't know how to stop watching porn. Can we give some advice? Yeah, absolutely. And when I just said what I said, that was in the back of my mind because I don't want people to condemn themselves if they had sex before marriage or if they watch pornography because I've done both. Right. I was not a virgin when I got married and I struggled with pornography. the beautiful thing about the gospel of Jesus Christ,

he is a redeemer of all things. Like he literally like he like like one, you know, we both have broken past. Right? She came from a life of homosexuality. I came from a life of just being promiscuous. And God bringing us together is to say, you know what,

I can take broken things and make it beautiful. That's the gospel, right? But at the same time, don't think that you have to remain there if you are there. Yeah. Right? God is calling you out now and he's calling you to himself and don't have shame.

Like, you know, like Jesus, like literally endured the shame of the cross so you would have to deal with it. It's great. But know that God is calling you to something higher and greater so that you can experience more fullness of life. That's great. Yeah, I think, you know, spend time in texts related to sexuality and sex, whether that's Romans 1, Galatians 5, 1st Corinthians 6, like those.

those texts, get those in your system, but I also want to speak to the motive behind sexual immorality, which could help, like, if we uproot that, then your behavior will change, right? So, like, Tim Keller in his book about idolatry talks about surface idols and root idols. So surface idol could be sex, money, fame, da-da-da-da. The root idol might be rejection, fear, all of that. usually there's a root idol at work when you are in sexual sin that might be comfort that might be fear of acceptance that might be you don't want him to leave but at that root is you don't trust God to be what you actually need and one of the ways that you excavate an idol is see and research and study how God is actually the thing that you want

yeah so if you want comfort first corinthian six says that he's a source of all comfort and so when god even in john four when he's talking to the woman at the well who's had five husbands, the way he deals with her stuff is by revealing that he can make her, he can quench her thirst. That's how he deals with it. Now with shame,

not with condemnation. He simply says, I have water to drink that you don't even know about. But once you drink it, and guess what? She did drink it in the spirit. That's why she left her bucket and went to the city and was like,

hey, I just met this man that just told me everything I ever did. So like, get in the texts, but also let God be God. and that like your affections will change your desires will change and even the way you deal with your temptations will change because you're filled now

and so I think that's what I would say That is great I remember listening to your book A Girl Good God and the part where you talked about like does like but do I love God enough to like trust him you know because it wasn't that you didn't like love your girlfriend

or you didn't love that it was just like you love God more And, like, you had to make a decision based off that love for God and that trust that God was really going to have you if you broke up with your girlfriend. And I think, like, that's the thing that a lot of people have to come to, like, okay, I might love this person, but we're living in sin. And I love God more. I got to, we have to address the sin. Like, we have to uproot that. And I'm not saying you actually have to break up to do that.

Sometimes you can get counseling and help and you can change things. Like, we've seen people on Instagram, like, sure, there's. story about how they're living together. And they stopped living together because they, like, realized. Yeah, I need to go to the courthouse. Yeah, and they're like, got engaged and got married. And, like, you can change. And to your point, like, we're the same way.

We have those past stories. And that's why I'm like, man, I'm so thankful for God's redemption. And God really can redeem things. And I remember whenever his pastor said that, and he's our pastor, but your pastor before we got married and before I went to that church. And he was saying, like, oh, yeah, whenever you're dating, you know, you always want to have sex when you're married you never want to and it scared me because it's like oh if we get married like is that gonna you know and it's not again like there's so much beauty in it too like when

because marriage like sex is meant for marriage it's designed for marriage so this beautiful thing that god has created there's so much good it's just that the enemy does definitely come after it and because of past and because of perversion and because of things you are going to need help navigating this territory because you've already done things or seen things or heard things and continue to because the world is like you don't even have to seek it you'll just see it i mean we're driving on the interstate the other day and it's like this billboard and it's just all these girls butts straight up and i'm like is it the lotion yes the sunscreen it's like glittery lotion yes and i was just like okay not cool you know like the wife sitting in the car with the kids and you're seeing

like perfect butts on a billboard like multi-covered even have to go looking it's just there it was diverse it was diverse it was very diverse group of people and i say that to say like yeah the enemy is real but god does have a good design and he is a redeemer and can make things beautiful so that's why you have to have these conversations td bank knows that running a small business is a journey from startup to growing and managing your business that's why they have a dedicated small business advice hub on their website to provide tips and insights on business banking to entrepreneurs no matter the stage of business you're in visit td.com slash small business advice to find out more or to match with a td small business banking account manager and i want to affirm

something because i know depending on sometimes our denominational theological context you can feel like we're putting the devil on too much but ephesians does you know like when i when i had to I did a study on Ephesians, a Bible study. And when I read through the book, one of the commentaries was saying how a lot of times we detach chapter six about the armor of God and spiritual warfare. We detach it from chapter five, which is about marriage, you know, but Paul is making one full point, which is he, like husbands love your wives, like Christ loves the church, giving himself up for her, washing her with the water, where wives submit to your husbands,

like the church submits to Christ, da-da-da-da. And chapter six is how you fight against all the opposing forces that keep you from walking in your position. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And so to say that there are principalities and powers that want to separate your unity is to affirm scripture. Because if marriage is a picture of the gospel, if sex functions within the context of that marriage, helping the oneness, cultivating the oneness, you cannot think that there are not devils with plans and strategies to keep y'all disunited. Why? Because he That hinders the proclamation of the gospel

Through your marriage And so it's like We're not We're not just being Charismatic We're being biblical Yeah That's all that says

This is the reason why the enemy fights young men so much with porn Like he literally Like one he doesn't want them To put that arm on He wants to he wants him to go Go into marriage With all of these expectations

And these perverted thoughts About what sex is you know what I'm saying and I think that's why I think porn is so evil it is destructive it is evil and I think that we need to just I just hope it's eradicated yes it's the worst thing it is so to conclude

because we're starting to run on on time and I hate that because this is such a good conversation and it's funny because I brought up guarding your heart in marriage and we were like I don't remember that pockets but now I actually do want to talk about guarding your heart in marriage because like you said there is a very real enemy that's not making the enemy too much. It's just being publicly true.

When you think about, because sometimes you hear people, like Billy Graham's, like he never got an elevator with another woman. Like there's like extreme guarding your heart and marriage. And then there's some little things. How do y'all guard your heart in marriage, knowing the context of your past, knowing that we're all human and subject to sin?

Like what are some practical things y'all do to guard your heart? Yeah, well, for me, I don't have a relationship. relationship with women that that doesn't include my wife. Like, and so it's no, it's no relationship that I, like a close relationship that I have with women that she's not close with. You know, that's just my own conviction. Now, I know people who have different, you know, testimonies. Like, you're a man and she was my best friend in college and, you know, but I think it's healthy. If she's your best friend in college and you get to marry to another woman, she needs to be your wife best friend too. Yeah. Like, I think

your wife has to have a comfort. And I think it's very important for wanting your spouse to be comfortable with all the people that's in your life, especially if it's of the opposite sex. I think that's one way that you guard yourself in marriage. But I also think one way you guard yourself in marriage is it's real true discipleship. Because like I said early in the last podcast, it can be a lot for your wife or your husband to just bear all the weight of your challenges or temptations. And so you just need a community to help point you back to Christ

because that's actually going to help you guard your heart in marriage and love your spouse well. And so, you know, all the things, you know, like, for example, like when I was touring when Jackie was pregnant, you know, I had great friends who like literally was like, I came over there because you was talking to the girl in the corner too long. I came and got you, pulled you away. And so that accountability is also.

great for me. It's so true. And I think to just speak to that too of not having women, you know, in your life that your wife doesn't feel good about. I think it's too like respecting your spouse enough to when they don't feel good about someone being like, okay, like I respect that and make those changes because there's been people like we're constantly around amazing, beautiful people, you know, but then there are some people that I'll just go, I don't feel good about them and the way that they talk to you, you know?

And it's not like a jealousy thing. It's just like a, it feels like a discernment thing. And whether I'm right or wrong, what I've appreciated in you is when I've said those things to you, you're like, yep, like, heard. You know, like I'm like, I'd rather you're not follow them on social media, even though we are friends, I don't feel good about the way she puts herself out when you're around, you know? Like, I think those are like honest conversations you have to have. Yeah. Yeah. And if I shamed you for that, then that would not be good.

Or then maybe why do you want to solve? That's what I'm saying. It would be a rude to, yeah, yeah. But I think that that's a hard thing in marriage. One, people don't feel comfortable enough with their spouse to say, hey, I'd rather you not follow it because maybe they feel like they're being dramatic or they're being whatever. Or, yeah, or they're being controlling. But you trust me enough and I trust you enough to know if we feel that way.

Okay, done. You know. Yeah, respecting your spouse. Because I'm going to tell them myself, I did something early on in our marriage that, that I thought was innocent, but looking back on it, I had to just, you know, like the time I jumped on the back of a...

Oh, we weren't even engaged. Oh, we were dating? Wow. Yeah. He was just being naive. I would just be naive. This girl was like... We worked at this nonprofit

and one of the volunteers, she had like a little motorcycle. And Preston, he can be like a child. I say that respectfully. He was like, oh, I want to get on? And he just jumped on, but you own her butt. Because she, you know what I'm like, I don't, won the optics.

She's like, I don't like, I don't like that. Yeah, like, don't. So I didn't even shame him because I knew genuinely. He just wanted to have fun. He wasn't thinking nothing about that girl, but. But, well, I was going to say, I think, that's crazy. I thought we were married. Not always dated.

Guarding your heart in marriage is also not just around sexual temptation. I think it's around many things. But one thing I was expressing. I feel like I've been talking to Preston a lot about covetousness because I've been reading about it and seeing how covetousness is at a root of a lot of our sins and I was sharing with him how this is me being very honest and transparent

but I think it would be helpful I was I was realizing I was talking to a friend who really loves rom-coms I can't stand them like I just don't like them and I was like processing why don't I like rom-coms and I was like I think it's because they portray wives and women in ways that don't resonate with my personality and my experience, therefore it makes me feel shame.

And so one way I've been seeing like, oh, content that presents wifeness in a way that is just super like hyper feminine and affectionate and it makes me, I want to covet it and it makes me discontent with myself and my marriage. Like I am not a good enough wife. I am not a this, I am not a that. And so I think even guarding shame, guarding yourself from covetousness, guarding yourself from comparison, because that will affect how you show up. It affects your freedom. I think there are so many women in particular that struggle in ways they don't have to struggle because they are always comparing themselves to other people.

And it's making you discontent. And I say one thing too, I think in guarding our heart in marriage we're talking about, I think it's very important for us to remember that we have to. protect our other we have to protect our spouse in marriage as well because i think the enemy like what jacky said the enemy always wants to remind us of what we are not doing or what we aren't but like i always want to remind her of like okay yeah you're not like the super like what what rom-com show like oh babe get to see you uh yeah but that's not i'm i knew that when i married you and i love you And not, you know, but also, like, you're super thoughtful. Like, I have good credit score because of you.

And I have good health because of you. And great skin. And great skin because of you. Like, you, like, literally, like, care about my skin routine more than I do. And so, like, all the. Higher eruronic acid. And I'm like, man, like, I'm sick at all these steps, but you're a great wife. Yeah. It's something so powerful about affirming your spouse and what you see in them and love about them.

Like, words of affirmations, obviously. big thing but that's so true like you said something the other day that I didn't even like tell you a man a lot to me but you were like you are really good at that and I was like thank you like that means so much that your spouse sees you and acknowledges and like you hear something that they love about you like whenever you say you're such a great mom I saw you do these specific things you know like you feel so seen and I love that point about the romcom because it's not something that like you know you probably wouldn't have come to that unless you really thought about why does this bother me?

And like you got to the root of that and then that's where the shame was coming from. Similar experience, Christian's family loves James Bond movies and I had never seen them. And so we watched one and I was like, oh, yeah, that was great. I loved it.

It was like the more recent one. Then it was like a rainy day it was for like, oh, let's go watch the James Bond's movies. Well, at the end of the day, I was feeling like really just like insecure. It was weird. And I'm like, why do I feel this way?

And I thought about it. Why do I feel this way? Why do I, why did I, like, not like that so much? It was because in every single movie, the woman, like, the woman is always, like, very scandalous, hypersexualized. Like, that is every role in, like, every role the woman got casted in James Bond. Like, there's nothing more to them than them being, like, the super sexual person. And then I'm like, I'm not like that, you know? And then you're like, and he loves this movie, and I'm not, like, you know, you get in your head of it.

And that's just real. And then I had to say to him, like, I can't watch stuff like that because this is how it makes me feel in comparison to how those women are. And I'm not like that. And when you like a movie like that makes me feel like I need to be that way, you know? And so we had like a really good conversation about it or whatever. But to your point, it's not just like the obvious things, you know. It's the things that you're like, huh, why do I feel that way? And asking yourself that question.

And then trusting your spouse enough to go to them. and having those conversations, and it makes you stronger. It makes you see each other more. And then, again, he's like, I don't want you to be that way. I would never want you to be that way. And it's like, okay, well, then let's not watch movies like that that make us feel like we need to be that way, you know, makes you better. So, y'all, this podcast is so good.

I'm like, oh, man, if I was listening to this at, like, 19 years old, it would have helped me so much navigate the next seven, eight years. That's true. Oh, for sure. And I'm just super thankful for y'all being willing to come on and talk about stuff like this and being the real deal. We appreciate you. We've got to settle your little pretty couch. You all are the best.

Thank you.