WHOA That's Good Podcast - Being Busy Is the Biggest Enemy to Loving Anyone | Sadie Robertson Huff & John Mark Comer

Episode Date: January 10, 2024

Buckle up, y'all! Sadie's been talking about this interview since it was recorded and she can't wait for you all to enjoy it now! John Mark Comer is an author and teacher and is challenging us all to examine our own hearts to see if we are simply a Christian or are we a true disciple of Christ? John Mark Comer shares SO much wisdom on this difference and will get any self-described Christian thinking about your motivations and desires. Sadie and John Mark discuss why being busy is counter-productive to almost any good pursuit, especially showing love to anyone in a genuine way. Sadie is humbled and encouraged by some advice John Mark shares as she prepares for speaking at Passion. And when was the last time you felt truly awed by something? Are we so distracted now that we don't give ourselves space and time to be awed? John Mark Comer's book "Practicing the Way" is available for pre-order: https://bit.ly/47nA32X https://helixsleep.com/sadie — Get 20% off all mattress orders AND 2 free pillows! https://give.cru.org/good or text GOOD to 71326 — Get a free copy of Sadie and Christian's new book "How to Put Love First" with your monthly gift! https://www.hungryroot.com/whoa — Get 30% OFF your first delivery and FREE veggies for life! - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Fail, I am so thankful to be getting some rest after a very busy holiday season with passion everything. Rest has been great and the best part is that I get to have the best rest ever with my comfy helix mattress. My helix mattress is perfect for taking a quick power nap in the afternoon, cuddling out with honey and haven watching frozen for the 100 time or a Paw Patrol who even knows these days. But rest is so good, especially for a long night's sleep in my Helix mattress.

So maybe you're wondering how will you know which mattress model is perfect for you? Well, by taking the Helix sleep quiz, it's super easy. You'll be matched with the perfect mattress for you in under two minutes. Everyone is unique and everyone sleeps differently, so Helix has several models to choose from. They're each designed for specific sleep preferences and positions, so you'll know that your mattress is right for you and not just anyone. Just go to helixleap.com slash satie, take the two minute sleep quiz, and get matched with the helix mattress that will seriously give you the best sleep of your life. Helix is offering 20% off all mattress orders and two free pillows for our listeners. Just go to helixleap.com slash satie and use the code helixpartner20. This is their best offer yet and it's not going to last long, with

helix better sleep starts now. Go to helixleap.com slash satie and use the code helix partner 20. What's up, what up, good fam. Happy Wednesday, everybody. I hope you're having a great week, but per usual it's about to get a lot better because we have an incredible guest on the pie cast today that I myself have personally learned from from his books, his studies online and I cannot wait to dive into his new book practicing the way we have John Mark Comer on the podcast. Welcome to the Well That's Good Podcast. Hey, hey great to be with you Sadie. Thanks for having me on. Yes, this is gonna be awesome. My husband was texting me just a second. I was like, are you so excited for the

podcast? I am. I feel like I have so much to learn and so hopefully everyone's logging in today with the same excitement But if people don't know who you are if they haven't heard the books tell us a little bit about your life what you do all the things Yes, my name is John Mark Comer. I have written a number of books one that Some people may know about it's called the ruthless elimination of hurry But I am from the west coast born raised in California what people may know about, it's called the ruthless elimination of hurry, but I am from the West Coast, born, raised in California,

but spent the last 20 years church planting and pastoring with Bridgetown Church in Portland, Oregon, the Pacific Northwest, and just a year or two ago, stepped down to start a nonprofit, also called practicing the way and relocated back to California, and I live in Topanga Canyon in L.A. That's basically me. That's awesome.

I'm working on discipleship stuff for people in post-Christian culture. That's awesome. So good and so helpful. So I love that you titled that book, Ruthless Elimination because that is kind of how it feels, especially for me. I'm a very, I'm a hurried person. I can't lie. You know, I think we all, that'm a hurried person, I can't lie. You know, I think we all, that was why that book hit so hard is that we all

saw that title and I were like, oh man, that's my life. And just the fact that it has to be an aggressive elimination because it's hard to do. So it's funny that you even said same here. So you didn't write that book because you like had it all figured out, you came from living your hard life, all right? Okay, tell us a little bit about the writing of that book because I know a lot of people are familiar with it.

It sounds like we would share a bit of a similar psychosis. Yes, type A, driven, probably I was thinking as we're recording this, it's Christmas time. And I have lovely memories of Christmas shopping with my dad back in the day when you had to like go to a mall or a store to Christmas shop and not your laptop. Yeah. And I remember walking around the mall, we used to always as part of our tradition where we would go,

we'd save something to buy on Christmas Eve because we loved my dad loved to go to the mall on Christmas Eve where it's just like jam packed and it was like right out of a home alone movie or something. And by so we would always at least save one last item for Christmas Eve. And I remember walking around the mall with my dad, and we would pride ourselves on being the fastest walkers in the whole mall, and just passing person after these suckers,

just going slow through life. So very much, no, type A driven to quote a mentor who said to me a few days ago, I feel oppressed by hurry. And yeah, there's a much longer conversation, but hit a wall in my own discipleship to Jesus, and formation into a person of love, to Jesus' information into a person of love, where I just could not get past a few systemic issues in my character like anxiety, perfectionism, controlling behavior toward my kids, obsessive compulsive, neat freak, house cleaning and stuff like that, and discovered that same mentor actually was himself mentored by the philosopher Dallas Willard who has played a key role in my life. He was a Christian and a philosopher. And he once went to

Dallas and basically said, hey man, I'm not doing well. I'm not, you know, I'm really struggling emotionally and in my own formation into a person of love. What do I need to do? And Willard said to him, you must ruthlessly eliminate hurry from your life. And then he said, hurry is the great enemy of spiritual life in our day. Wow. Which there's so many interesting things about that. One that he named Hurry as the great enemy, not secularism, not political polarization, not ideological idolatry, not what you fill in the blank. Hurry was what he identified as the number one challenge for Christians in the modern West. And secondly, he identified it as an enemy.

So it's not neutral. Hurry is actually like against you. It has an active campaign to sabotage your life information into a person of love. Therefore our response to hurry can't be neutral either. It has, we have to fight back if we have any desire to live a slower life at the pace of Jesus that is more conducive to becoming a person of love. And that really is, there's a felt need we all have to be less stressed out and hurried. But the angle I approach it through is just the angle of discipleship to Jesus where the whole point is to become a person of love in God and hurry and love are incompatible. When I am in a hurry,

I am not loving and gentle and patient and kind. In Corinthians 13, the famous love poem that we hear at weddings all the time, the first descriptor of love is love is patient, which can also be translated from the Greek as love is unhurried. It's the very first descriptor. So whatever love is, it's unhurried presence to another person in kindness. Well, I can't do that and be chronically overextended, exhausted, and hurried all of the time. Wow. That's so good. That's so good. That's beautiful. I was just thinking about, I feel like I quote this sermon a lot on this piecasm. maybe that's just saying how much it meant to me, but Ben Stewart preached a sermon at passion. Last year, I think it was the Dallas, yeah, it was Dallas passion.

And he was talking about how as a generation, we have lost our ability to be in awe. And it was essentially talking about how, you know, to be in awe, you would have to be captivated, you would have to be still, you would have to be unhurried to really be in awe, what's before you. And because we're so distracted, because we have our phones before it's constantly distracting,

it's begging for attention, or even on social media, you scroll so fast, you're not even stopping, you would take it in. It's like happening so fast that we just are no longer in awe. And I was thinking about this because I had my second daughter back in May. Congratulations. Thank you. It's the best thing ever. But she's just amazing.

What's her name? Her name is Haven. So I have a little Haven in the first daughter's name is Honey. And they're the sweetest girls. But when I had Honey, I did not slow down. Like I just was like, you know, kept going at the same speed I had been going at before. Didn't really take the time to even do a maternity leave just was like on mission going,

which led me to like hitting a brick wall a hundred miles per hour. And it was like, it was the, you know, it was a dark season. It's a hard time in my life. Not because of honey, but because of me being so worried and just not slowing down or taking the time I needed. So when I had haven't, I was like, I'm going to like truly slow it down. Like truly take them a turn and they leave no work, be at home with my kids and just be and soak to like truly slow it down. Like truly take them attorney leave, no work, be at home with my kids and just be

and soak in the season that it is. And it was so interesting, even the thoughts that I had that I noticed myself having like every night, every single night was like my favorite. I wish I could bottle this up and just, I hope I remember it forever, but I would go outside with honey and Christian and I would be holding Haven and

Christian and honey would be hitting the little tea ball. And it was just like the best time. And I remember just looking up one night and seeing this airplane because honey is obsessed with airplanes and every night she would be like airplane airplane, but she calls them hair planes, which is as hilarious. She would be like airplane, airplane. And I just got to thinking one night, you know, as I'm looking at this in the sky,

the first thing that comes to my mind is like, wow, there are like people in that plane. So like, you don't really think about that when you see an airplane, like there are people just sitting up there, that's crazy. And I was like, somebody made that and designed that for them to be able to do what they're doing. And then thinking about that, I was like, man, I wonder if this is when it's talking

about when it's something like the heavens, like the clear is glory. Like you could look up and you just have to start thinking who made that because right after the airplane passed these birds pass and it's like the same thought who made that God made that God created that how beautiful, where they go and like, I just had these thoughts that I don't think about whenever I typically see an airplane or I see a bird or I see these things because I'm in a hurry and all of a sudden as I'm sitting there, I'm captivated by what's happening right before me, my awe begins to written like, wow, I'm in such awe of who created this and this is so wonderful

and this is so beautiful and everyone in the world is seeing this sky right now and how crazy. And so anyways, I say it to say it is amazing when you are on hurried. Even what you notice, that is always been there that you've seen before but it didn't captivate you like it did before. And so I have definitely seen that I'm alive like the enemy to that spiritual awareness or even spiritual disciplines and all that, this being a hurt can really steal from. I love that even the first, you know, your first answer you gave on this podcast, you quoted two people. The whole model of this podcast, if you will, is I ask people what's the best piece of advice

they've ever been given. And the reason I asked you that question is because I have so many influential people come on, but I wanted to like what influenced you? What was it that you heard that kind of begin to shape your life? And you've already named a couple, so that might have been some of it.

And you named so many quotes in this book, but what's some of the best piece of advice that you've ever been given that begin to shape you? I do know the gospel of Jesus has changed my life forever. Literally, it's why I do everything that I do. I think we should all be going and preaching the Bible. That doesn't mean you have to be a preacher. That doesn't mean you have to necessarily do vocational

ministry, but if you are a follower of Christ, that means going and them people about him. And that is exactly what crew is doing. That's what I'm so thankful to be partners with crew. Crew has missionaries in nearly every country in the world. And they are seeing so many people come to know Jesus, but many of these new Christians are missing something very important,

which is a Bible in their own language. For many of us, we can just head over to the nearest bookstore or literally order a Bible on Amazon and have it delivered super fast, but that's not the reality for many Christians and, you know, all parts of the world. So, friends, this is where we can help. For only $24 a month, you can provide three people with Bibles each and every month. When you sign up to provide three Bibles with a monthly gift of $24. As a thank you, crew will provide meals to 12 hungry individuals through the humanitarian aid ministry. Plus, to receive a free copy of Christians and my new book, How to Put Love First.

If you haven't heard of it, it's a 90 day devotional challenge about putting God first in your life. This is not just a relationship book, it's for everyone because everyone is in relationship with someone and the way that we're going to make our relationships thrive is by having God first. Many of you have already signed up to give and I just want to stop and say thank you so much for doing that.

You'll really are amazing, but there is still so much more to do and crew, Sony is your prayers and help to keep sharing the word of God all over the world. So simply text good to 71326 to help today. Just imagine how much this monthly gift could change someone's life. So text good to 71326, that's GOD to 71326 to help now or visit give.croo.org.org slash good. Message and data rates may apply available to us. It addresses only. Mm, I already said, that's it.

I mean, that line, you must ruthlessly eliminate her from your life, which hilariously was not actually said to me. It was said to a mentor of mine who then passed it on to me. It's great. And, yeah, I mean, the first time he said that to me, it was like, there's this thing, do you know what a tuning fork is, say it's a weird musician thing? I don't know.

So, it's okay, this is thing called a tuning fork that if you play certain instruments, especially if you're a orchestral music or guitar, it's like this metal piece and you hit it and it vibrates at a certain frequency and you can like tune your guitar to it or your instrument to it. But it does this weird thing where when you hit it it vibrates and you feel it like in your bones. There's this weird resonance that like in your bones with the frequency that I'd omit. It's there's this like weird, you know, resonance that like in your bones with the frequency that I'd admit It's just I'd start to describe if you've never felt it

It's a really it's like a one-on-one it's a once in a lifetime it feeling. It's just like very unique and It kind of felt when I first when he said those words to me You must ruthlessly eliminate her from her life. Her is the great enemy of spiritual life in our day It felt like a tuning fork, kind of in my soul. It felt like some deep thing in me just vibrated as it touched on a piece of reality in the universe. And that was a number of years ago. And I have been honestly just trying to live that out ever since.

And it turns out that is quite hard. That living an unheard life with three kids and a full-time job and inner city and in the digital age and the generativity and responsibility of adulthood, it turns out that it is very hard to live a unheard life. Yeah. And so I think I am still very much in process and have a long ways to go. But yeah, I would say that was if I had to dial it down to one piece of advice, that's

certainly the most impactful in the last decade of my life. Yeah, that's awesome. Well, I would say so. It definitely has shaped a lot of what you've done and what you put out. And I would say that it's probably cool that a lot of people out there wouldn't even say that's the best use of advice they've ever been given from reading your book. So very, very cool. You have a new book.

Just passing on advice, right? I love it. That's what we're doing. That's what well, that's good to all about. You have this new book out, practicingicing the Way, and it's so good. It's so, I have so many things I want to talk to you about. I was writing down thoughts, and I was like, oh man, this is just going to go by way too fast.

But I just have to open the book because at the start of it, it's so cool. It actually reminds me a lot of my book, who are you following, not the whole book, because it's way over my head and ability to write. However, it starts the same with the question who are you following. And I wanted people to ask themselves that question because that's such an important question to ask yourself. Then you go on to ask this question right after that question.

The question is not, am I a disciple, it's who or what am I disciple of? And I was like, that's it. You have to ask yourself that question. So can you just speak a little bit about why you chose that to be the first question of the book and why you wanted that to be on the forefront of people's minds. Yeah, I think as I write about in that opening chapter, there's this myth in American culture that basically says we're not following anybody. We're a true original and we're just living our life from scratch and Americans aspire to be leaders, not followers, which is somewhat hilarious when you do the math on that.

We can't all be leaders. And we aspire to be leaders, not followers. We love to think that we're just kind of a blank slate that we project an identity onto and choose, all the stuff on identity, in particular, that my generation and yours has been living through is all based on this kind of a myth that we make our own identity and we choose our own identity and we choose our own life path. And the reality is that I argue in the book that we're all following somebody or something. The question is what? And that very powerful forces from Silicon Valley and corporations that want to sell

us shoes and clothes and subscriptions have invested interest in us believing that we're not following anybody else's script. We're just following the authentic desires of our heart to a true and happy life in order to keep us blind to all the ways that we are being disciples informed and manipulated and moved by their desires, which are normally to get us to buy something or vote for someone or believe something or change our opinion about something. And this is just inevitable in human society. So for me, the core question is not am I going to follow Jesus? It's who or what am I going to follow. You know, I'm a big believer that religion is not a religious thing. You know, the best definition of religion is a system of meaning and belief about what life is all about, what is good, what is evil, how we become a good person, where do we belong, what's the meaning

and purpose of life. And by that definition, there are many religions that are religions and then there are many ideologies, work as a religion for a lot of people, sexual identities are religion for a lot of people, money is a religion for a lot of people, fame and success are religion for a lot of people, athletics is a religion for a lot of people, all sorts of different religious systems

that people live by, that give them a sense of identity, purpose, belonging, community, a tell us for life. And I just think that Jesus is by far the most compelling of all of them. So I want people to think critically, even if they don't agree with me, about who or what am I following? What am I putting my trust in?

I think about it this way, Sadie. Like, imagine you wanna go on a road trip somewhere awesome. But there are no maps there. You don't know how to get there. And you've never been there. You just hear this place is amazing. But in order to get there, you have to ask somebody for directions.

Like just imagine that. It's hard to imagine a pre-iPhone world. And that person's gonna give you directions. And you're gonna follow that it's hard to imagine a pre-iPhone world. And that person's gonna give you directions and you're gonna follow that person's directions to this place that you think is amazing. Yeah. But if that person's directions are wrong, or if that person is untrustworthy

and they're actually trying to get you to like, go to some CD place where they can rob you, or if they're just totally well sincere and they probably want you to get there but they don't understand they're wrong about how to get there. Then you are going to end up lost which is the very word that Jesus used for people that are not followers of him and it's a really honoring word. Lost isn't saying anything about your IQ or your moral capacities or your goodness of your heart. When I get lost, I don't feel shame. I just feel lost, you know, like I don't know where I am or how to get where I need to go.

Yeah. And I think all of us have this destination we want to get to, a happy life, a flourishing life, whatever you want to call it, a good life. The problem is none of us have actually been there. We're all trying to get somewhere we have not yet been, and we need directions, and we need a map to get there. It has to come from somebody who's been where we want to go.

The question is, is that person going to be Jesus, or is it going to be our celebrity of choice, or our intellectual of choice, or our politician of choice, or historical figure of choice or our intellectual of choice or our politician of choice or historical figure of choice or is it going to be Jesus? And I'm an advocate for Jesus. It's great. It's so good. I love that so much. Yes, that is such a neat and message. I love like thinking about how Jesus literally said that I am the way. I am the truth. I am the life. No one gets to the father except they're me. So it makes it so clear. You

know, like, I am the choice. You know, this is the best person to follow because I am actually the way. I'm the truth. I'm the life. And so I love that. So it's so beautiful. I thought this was very interesting in the book where you talk about the difference in being a Christian and a Pernis or a disciple. And it was so interesting that there was only like, I think two or three times that you said that, you know, the word Christian is used in the Bible, but then there's like 200 plus of this other word. It barely used in the Bible.

Yes. Yes, barely at all. And so talk a little bit about the difference of the two and what could shift in people's minds by going from just saying, like, oh, I'm a Christian, a truly being, and a apprentice of Jesus. [♪ music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background, music playing in background Christian and I spent our first Christmas in our new house and it was so amazing and so fun. And one of the best parts of our new house is of course our awesome Helix Sleep mattress. We love a good night's sleep because y'all to be honest is few and far between having

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slash satie and use the code HelixPartner20. Oh yeah, love the ask kind of question. Yeah, so the word Christian is only used two or three times in the New Testament. Interestingly, it's never used the way we use it today, where followers of Jesus self-identified as Christians, it was actually used as like a religious slurr. It was an insult from the pagans, which was not a derogatory term in the New Testament era, people self-identified as pagans. And it was, the word Christian literally means like a little Christ or a mini Messiah, and it was almost like a slur away of saying, like, oh, you're a wannabe Jesus.

Or you think you're a little little Christ, mini Messiah, wannabe Jesus. And it was a maw, it was a joke, it was an insult. And years later, Christians who had been being called this kind of religious slur for many decades or longer, finally just like self-identified and said, yes, that is who we are. We are minimized, we are a little Christ, we want to be like Jesus, we're not, but and began to self-identify with this language. There's nothing wrong with the language of a Christian, but that's not the language used by Jesus. He never used that word a

single time. Christianity is not a word used anywhere in the whole Bible. He invited people not to become Christians and certainly not to convert to Christianity. He invited people to follow him. He would say, come and follow me or another way to translate that is come and you might disciple or come on an apprentice under me. The Greek word is methodace and it's normally translated disciple in English but a lot of scholars think apprentice is actually an even better word to translate what this kind of word means. It was it was a student but not like an art system where like you

go to class and then you go home. It was an apprentice like an apprentice to a plumber or an electrician where you were with your master teacher all day long trying to learn how to do what he does. And that's what it meant to apprentice under Jesus, sort of follow Jesus. So we lived, so that was then.

Now, we have this fascinating thing where Christian and disciple are no longer synonyms, where you can't be a disciple of Jesus without being a Christian, but you can be a Christian without being a disciple of Jesus in modern vernacular. So all that Christian really means in kind of modern American verbiage is just someone that ascribes to the kind of bare bones of Christianity's doctrine about God and the Trinity and Christ and lives by a rough Judeo-Christian ethic in their world view. Dictators, the communities, the communities, the communities, the communities, the communities,

the communities, the communities, the communities, the communities, the communities, the communities, the communities, the communities, the communities, the communities, the communities, the communities, the communities, the communities, the communities, the's often code for like white conservative, which is certainly not what it means in the New Testament or around the world. And there's this bizarre phenomenon that is very unique, Sadie, to our time, as you know, where the way the church has developed in American history, we're in this unique pocket of time where we have made it possible to become a Christian without becoming a disciple of Jesus. So, you know, for all the talk about post Christianity in America, which you feel very much,

if you're in a place like LA.A., where I live now, about 68% of Americans still identify as Christians. In the parts of the world that I have grown up in California and Portland, that's just almost impossible to imagine. But there are parts of the country where it feels like that. But a number of independent surveys that attempt to measure whether or not people are actually following Jesus, which is tricky to measure. But they all estimate that about 4% of Americans

are following Jesus. So 68% identifies Christians, and something like 4% of Americans are following Jesus. And that disparity has created this kind of two-tier church, where you have this huge number of people that identifies Christians, believe the gist of Christianity and a basic Judeo-Christian ethic, and may go to church every week or once a year or never or a couple times a year, but they are not a preantissine under Jesus every single day of their lives following him attempting to deepen their surrender and obedience to him They're often whether they come from the right or the left from a city like a LA or a small town in

Alabama They're just more loyal to their socio-political tribe than they are to the way of Jesus to their ideologies from the right of the left, than they are to the teachings of Jesus, to their vision of this earthly kingdom, then to the kingdom of God. And so much of the invitation, I think, you know, Dallas Willard, again, and I quote him in the book, has this beautiful line where he writes, the greatest issue facing the world today, with all its heart-breaking needs, is whether those who identify as Christians will become disciples, apprentices, practitioners of Jesus Christ.

And if you think about all of the problems we're facing in the world today, from political polarization, to multiple wars, to the threat of nuclear war, to climate change, to the economy, like so many issues. Most of them would almost disappear overnight if the several billion people around the world who self-identify as Christians began to actively apprentice under Jesus in every single day of their lives. And so I don't think it's an overstatement for Willard to say it's the greatest issue

facing the world today for Christians to become disciples. Well, man, that's so good. I wanted to read this quote because it's just right on what you're saying and it is so good. When I read this, I thought, just right on what you're saying. And it is so good. When I read this, I thought, wow, like I felt personally convicted by this because of things I've said, like,

oh, you know, go into church and wish that you learned more, wish is wishing that, you know, your pastor taught more, whatever it is, you know, of a great church family. But, you know, you just feel those feelings and church in different places. But this was so good because you hear this language in the church all the time, but it said, here's why, if disciple is something

that is done to you, a verb, then that puts the, I might say this word wrong. How do you say this? The onus of responsibility is up next line. Oversponsibly. What did it go?. How do you say this? The onus of responsibilities. That's the next one. The onus of responsibility. Where did it go? What did you know you're writing? The onus of responsibility for your spiritual formation

on someone else, like your pastor, your church, or a mentor. But a disciple is a noun. If it's someone you are and or not, then one can disciple you, but the no one can disciple you, but the no one can disciple you, but Rabbi Jesus himself. And I thought, oh my gosh, that is so good because here we are.

So often thinking, oh, we're not taught enough if only the church taught more, if only the pastor taught more, if only we had a mentor, if only we had this, like we need to be disciple, we need to be disciples. And I am guilty of saying that very thing. So I'm with you for those listening to Pike, as if you've been feeling that way. I've said those things. I've felt that way.

But when I read that, I felt so convicted in that that a disciple is a noun. It's someone that you are or that you're not. And the only person who can truly disciple you and should really be discipling you is the rabbi is the teacher is Jesus Himself and you know I was super convicted because recently just I felt you know having two kids I've been you're so tired it's so crazy working kids I totally know yes and you're like it's hard to get a church on Sunday it's hard to sit and read the word and I just feel like oh if only someone was teaching me blah blah and I'm like but then the second I get read the word and I just feel like, oh, if only someone was teaching me a bowl of water.

And I'm like, but then the second I get in my word, if I just sit for a minute, I mean, I learned so much. I feel so disciple. I feel so bastard, if you will, by just reading the teachings of Jesus, by reading the letters to the church. I feel so encouraged and strengthened in it. It just takes an hour of sitting with him,

sometimes less. I mean, just, but if you get it, if I get a whole hour of man, I feel so strengthened. And so I just feel like when I read that, I felt personally convicted and inspired and encouraged to go like, man, this is not just like a verb and some people are and some people are

and those who do vocational ministry are and those who don't or not. This is a noun that we all are to be a disciple of Jesus, no one else Jesus. So love that point in the book. On that note, I want you to speak into that, but with that, you know, there's an awesome thing whenever you're hosting podcasts for those who don't host podcasts or written books that are in that world, but the book company typically sends you questions that you can go off of. And I don't always choose those questions because I always like to, you know, really take in the book or get to know the person a little more, see if there's other things I could ask, but

there was a question on there that I thought was so good and so spot on when they were the person suggested this question and they were basically saying, look the church, we have like an overview of the Bible, but why are we not getting that spiritual maturity that we truly desire? And that was really the question and I want to ask you that question with this note of like, do you think that we're not getting that spiritual maturity that we desire because we haven't realized that we don't need to just be disciple, but we are disciples of Jesus because I think that those things can go hand in hand.

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Oh no, that's, I love to talk about that. Yeah, I mean, one of the reasons I named the book practicing the way was that's language from Jesus and the sermon on the Mount and all through the gospels. And you mentioned that line, you know, I am the way, the truth, and the life. And there are two different interpretations of no one comes to the Father except for me.

There's two different interpretations of no one comes to the Father except for me. There's two different interpretations of that first part about the way where some people think it means it's like a soteriological or theological statement saying that the only way to have them when you die or to God is through faith in Jesus. And other people think it means no, there is a way, there is a very specific way to live that is based on the lifestyle and the teachings of Jesus himself. So we use that same language later in the sermon on the mount where Jesus said, broad is the way, same exact word, that leads to destruction and many follow it, and narrow is the way that leads to life. And again, some people think that means only a few people

are going to heaven when they died and everybody else is going to hell. Another way to read that is there are two different ways to live. There's the broad way, which is basically follow the crowd and do whatever you want. And it leads to destruction. And I think destruction means what it sounds like.

It's a broad, wide, sweeping word. It just means a life falling apart. And there's a narrow way that leads to life, which is the word used by Jesus for this extraordinary type of life that we can have with him and the Father. And I think narrow there means there is a very specific way to live. There is a specific, clear way to live that's based on the life of Jesus Himself. And if you follow that way, it will absolutely lead you to life. And so I love this concept. And all of that to say back to your question. My essential conviction of this book and of my life in teaching is that the way of Jesus is exactly what it sounds like. It's a way of life. It's not just a set of

ideas that we believe in our head about the Bible and theology and doctrine. It's not just a moral system of do's and don'ts and this is bad and this is good. It is both of those things, but it is so much more. It's an actual way of life together in community following Jesus. And a way of life, you cannot learn by listening to a podcast or reading a book or watching a YouTube video. You have to learn it with your body. So I chatted to this guy, he used to do this thing called the Jesus Dojo. And I was like, bro, why do you call it the, what are you talking about? Why do you call your,

you did this little like Christian discipleship thing and he called it the Jesus Dojo? That's funny. Why do you call it? Why do you call it exactly like that? Why do you call this the Jesus Dojo? And he said, following Jesus is closer to learning karate than it is to learning history or chemistry or, you know, theoretical physics. But yet our churches often look more like college lecture halls than they do like dojos. And there's only so much that you can learn by just having thoughts in your brain. The whole point of discipleship is to get those thoughts from your brain down into the muscle memory of your body,

so that you're actually becoming a person of love. And the problem with much of the kind of Western church is it was built because of when it came to birth around the age of the Enlightenment, some other historical factors, so many people who are Christians in America and the West believe that as your knowledge of the Bible increases, your spiritual maturity will increase along with it. The problem is that's true to a point, but you can only grow and mature so much by getting good ideas from the Bible and Christian theology into your head.

That is an essential foundation beginning point. You never really mature beyond. I read scripture every single day. I will do so until I die. But my problem now is not that I don't know the Bible. That may have been my problem 20 years ago. My problem now is that there are habits of sin in my body that keep me from obeying the Bible.

So now the challenge, not that I don't need to continue to study the Bible and learn more about scripture, but now the challenge is, all right, how do I get this into my muscle memory? You're a mom, you know what it's like when you're exhausted and your kids, not all love and feelings when your kid interrupts Your wakes up in the middle of the night or spills milk on your dress right before you're going out to a thing Yeah

And that reaction what just comes out of your body CS Lewis once said that how we respond to interruptions is who we really are You see in those moments Where what comes out of us is that a flash of anger or fear or selfishness or controlling behavior, that says a lot about who we still actually are in our character. And so getting that healed saved, formed and transformed, that's the lifelong process of discipleship. Of getting the truth of Scripture and the writings of the New Testament, the teachings of Jesus, into the muscle memory of our bodies.

And Jesus in the sermon on the Mount said that will take the word he used was practice. And so that's just a central idea for me. It's great. It's so good. Gosh, I knew I was going to learn a lot. I already am. I got a question. this is gonna be probably an interesting question because I am preparing

to preach at passion, passion, conference is, you know, coming up in the beginning of January. So excited about it. You go, yes. This might be coming out after passion or before, but I think it doesn't matter I think that whatever we talk about. You looked as such a great what a gift you will be. Thank you. I'm very excited but it's interesting because this year so each year

speaking at passion I've had I felt like a very specific word that I had felt like the Lord gave it to me many months before. Worked on it for months and felt super confident. This time, I have not felt that way at all. I felt like the Lord has not given me the words yet, which I think in a lot of ways has actually been a really good thing because I feel like it's requiring me

to really lean in. And I think also, I'm not worried about it because I have seen God come in time and time again, giving me the words just like he promised Moses he would do and different people throughout the scripture and you see him do all throughout the New Testament with the disciples and all of that. So I'm not worried about it,

but what I have felt in the direction to share is interesting that we're talking about this because I feel like the Lord wants me to remind people of the story, like what is the story of Jesus and which seems so simple because in one way I wanna go, well don't most people know the story, right? But then recently, who are gonna be a passion, I should say.

But then recently, as I've been talking to people who are friends and different things, and we just get to talking about the story, and there's so much of the story they don't know. I mean, it's amazing that it's like the things that maybe they've heard or scriptures they might even recognize, not understanding the context of that. Now, I say this to say, I am an unschooled person.

I have not been to seminary school. I've not gotten a degree in any of this. I don't even know if I could tell you, I haven't read the Bible from front to back in order. Like, I haven't set, like, so part of me feels so unqualified for this. But then I'm thinking, we all like that. I mean, Peter and them, they were known as unschooled men who just were filled with the spirit and went for it.

So to those. But they had been with Jesus, yeah, it's what it says. That's good. That's, yes, that's so good. So for those who are like myself, which is everyone listening to this podcast, who probably everyone listening, who aren't schooled, who don't know,

everything there is to know about the allergy and all of those different things. Like, if you were going to tell the story of Jesus, just go on for it. Do you think, well, I should say like this. I'm forming my question as I'm even asking the question. So excuse me for the messiness of this podcast. But I think what stood out to me just

is that you said 20 years ago that might have been my problem. And maybe a lot of us who are listening, most people, 18 to 25 are going to passion. We might be in that 20 years ago, moment of like maybe we don't know where do you start? How do you begin to know the story, to even be able to tell the story? And how do you take that pressure off yourself

to know all of it, to tell the good news of it? Does that make sense? Yeah, I mean, the beauty of the story of Jesus is it's simple enough for a child to get the gist of it and complex enough for a triple PhD to spend their entire life learning and still discovering new layers to it, you know? And as you know, Sadie, we were born

at an extraordinary time in human history where you don't have to be a wealthy, elite, intellectual male in order to go to an institution of higher learning to get access to theology and biblical theology and learning and truth, it's as far away from you as your iPhone is or your web browser. I think of my dear friend Tim Mackey from the Bible project. Have you had him on by chance? No, but I listened, like that is my teacher half the time.

Before I've preached servants, I listen to the Bible project and make sure I got the overview of the story, right? So that's so cool, you said that. No, I mean, and he is a delight. So we spent many years together in Portland, I loved him. I actually had him as one of my professors in seminary before Bible project ever started.

And he was incredible as you would imagine. Wow. And the gift of I have been through Bible college, say, first off, that feeling of feeling underqualified never goes away. Well, it certainly has not gone away for me. I don't feel smart enough. I certainly don't feel godly enough. I not gone away from me. I don't feel smart enough. I certainly don't feel godly enough. I don't feel humble enough.

I don't feel strong enough. I don't feel confident enough. I don't feel well spoken enough. And that feeling you actually never want to lose. Jesus called it spiritual poverty. The first of Jesus' be attitudes was blessed are the poor in spirit. The spiritually poor, those that have no spiritual wealth

and power to offer, but just come Lord have mercy as our anthem. I cannot tell you how many times before I get up to speak, it's Lord have mercy, or release a book, Lord have mercy, or do a podcast, Lord have mercy. That feeling you never want to lose sight of it because without that feeling you will never grow and you will never become who God wants you to become.

But so don't ever lose that feeling. Don't try to get rid of it through learning or education or prowess or experience because that will be the end of your ministry. But it's so good. Wow. It's such an amazing time back to Bible Project. I went through Bible College and through seminary and through other forms of education. And I'm telling you, if all you do is start an episode of one of the Bible Projects podcast and just listen through, you will know more, way more than I knew at the end of seminary

because Tim and others are just geniuses on that thing. And it's free and it's available and you can do it. You can do it, say, do you can do it while you're folding laundry or driving your kids to school or whatever. I don't know what you do. Running, exercising, playing soccer. I don't know what you think.

Playing soccer. I wish I did all this. I just can't do all of my costumes, but. No, I do not mean to interrupt you. I'm just honestly like have to take this moment to say how crazy this is because whenever this is so crazy, whenever the Lord felt like he put him a heart to tell the story, no joke.

Follow up to that when I was talking to God about how God, I don't feel like I'm the one to do that. Like speaking of insuert, let bin Stuart feel like I'm the one to do that. Like speaking of Ben Stewart, let Ben Stewart do that part. He knows so much more. You know, let someone else take that. I literally felt the Lord Gimme direction to start at the first video of the Bible project.

So I- No way. I am not kidding. I went to the first video of the Bible event and started it. And every day, I had been feeling like I got to get back on that so I can finish that before passion. I have 29 days from the moment we're talking about right now.

And I'm not kidding, I've only done the one. And I've been feeling the Lord kind of prompt me to like, hey, don't forget, do that, do that. And here I am saying, I don't really know why I'm asking this question, this is kind of a messy question. This is probably even gonna be after-passion And then you tell me the very thing the Lord already told me to do and it's so specific. Oh, that's beautiful That is absolutely beautiful. I love it and there are other great resources out there too

That's just that one is just so dang good and pleasant and enjoyable Gosh that was that was a cool moment. Go ahead. That is a cool moment. Let's celebrate that moment with Jesus. Hey, that's awesome. Almost like you and I have the same spirit of Jesus inside of bodies. It's crazy.

That is crazy. It's almost like He's full of love and involved in our day-to-day lives and intermingling His thoughts with our thoughts and his desires with our desires to direct us into goodness and wisdom and love. Almost. Almost like that. Almost. Wow.

My gosh. This is so good. I am, you know, for those listening who have not had a moment like this or maybe, you know, you haven't been walking with Jesus. I know a lot of people who listen to this podcast actually are even Christians are just intrigued by the things that we're saying. I have to say am I surprised by this in some ways it's always shocking whenever God does things like this because it's so cool. But also things like this do happen because you are united by one spirit.

And God is a good Father and Father of me and you. And a lot of ways when you pray things to Him, He's answering your prayers to other people. And I love him first John, it says, you know, no one's ever seen God, but we see God through the way that we love one another. Like we get to see who God is, the evidence that God really is there by the way that we speak to another. We get to see who God is, the evidence that God really is there

by the way that we speak to one another and God prompts us. And it's like when you talk to God personally about things so specifically, like I was talking to God about that, that I didn't feel qualified to do this and God teach me how I'm going to learn in 30 days, how to preach as much as a passion. And God says, go watch the bio project from the beginning. And then here I am talking to you, which we never even had a conversation really before. Besides backstage, it got a different things. And you say the very thing.

What that does is it makes me go, wow, God, like you did say that. You really are for this. You are involved. Real are real and involved. Real and involved and it raises my faith. And so this is such a cool moment on the podcast for those listening in of just a moment to kind of raise your faith and talk to God about those personal things.

And you will see him in your personal life. And even people that aren't Christians without viring into weird theological territory, because I think they're, I'm not a universalist, I think there is a clear distinction between those who have the Holy Spirit and them and those who don't. But I think God is omnipresent and His overwhelming and compassion and love toward all. And so I think all sorts of people are having little weird experiences like this, who aren't Christians at all or have yet to follow Jesus.

It's where I think like living in LA now, you hear a lot of people talk about the universe and it's a whole, I always just, it takes me a lot, takes self discipline not to make fun of it because I think it's kind of silly. But and people talk about the universe as it's like a proper noun as if the universe is a person like the universe has my back or the universe was speaking to me about the universe as it's like a proper noun, as if the universe is a person. Like the universe has my back or the universe was speaking to me here. The universe was at work in these circumstances. And I'm like, okay, this is not like the third law of thermodynamics is like loving you through this coincidence.

I think that's people trying to understand a God who is gently present to people and inviting them into relationship with Himself through Jesus. And so I think, even for some of you listening, you might not even be a Christian, you might just be wondering at the coincidences in your life, and I just wanna say to you, they are not the universe, the universe.

It is not a personal being. They are the Trinity, they are the God of love coming toward you and gently inviting you into relationship with Himself because He loves you and wants to bless you and fill your life with His presence and His goodness. But I do think these experiences in life are probably far more common than most of us realize. But again, like you said, we're just going so fast. We don't have time to behold it, to take it all in. We miss it a lot of the time. So true. So cool. So cool. Whenever you can't miss it, like in that moment, I was like,

because it did feel so specific that the Lord prompted me to do that. And I've almost been ignoring it. I've been like, okay, I'll start this, but that's a lot of videos to watch in a short amount of time. But now I cannot wait to go watch those videos. I'm like, I will be late tonight. I will be early tomorrow because I'm so excited. I can make see, like, so excited. So that's so cool. That's great.

Gosh, okay, let's see. I've probably only had time for like one more question. So I'm just looking at some of the things I jotted down. I think this is really cool. Just as an invitation into this. So like we're mentioning people who are listening to this who might just be intrigued by this and not ever step foot until what it would be

to be a disciple of Jesus, what it would look like to really be a follower of him. I love how you were telling the story about whenever Jesus shows up to Peter. And he says, like, drop your net, I'll make you a fisher, a man. And I love that story. I love Peter. So any story of Peter and I just have always really gravitated towards, because I feel like I can relate a lot to some of the things that he's struggle with, the different ways that he acted and responded to things.

And so I just kind of like take a little bit of... That's a relatable person. Yes. So relatable, yes. And I love how you said, before they even believed in Jesus, Jesus believed in them. Which that was such a profound thing to even read, because I think a lot of times we just feel like, man, I wish I could be better so that God would be proud of me or that, you know, he willow, or I couldn't be a part of that because I'm not good enough. And of course, if you really know the care to God, you know

that's not true, but sometimes it's still hard to believe, you know. And so to see that, that these men were fishermen, like they literally were fishermen. They weren't back to the whole school thing, back to the whole, you know, the best of the best. And Jesus believed in them. So he talked a little bit about that revelation for yourself and sharing that in this book. And for those who are listening who might just feel like, man, I came and found the fact that God would believe in me to actually become a follower of Him. Mm. Oh yeah, I'm so glad you said that.

You know, I almost cut that out of the book. Every single round of editing, I went through what you know about. It was like, it was on the shopping block and it kept almost getting cut out just because it could be interpreting kind of a self-help way. Like God believes in you and I'm just not my stick. Yeah. But I do think so many people

live under this cloud of shame that Jesus is inviting us out of. And the backstory to that statement, which is actually a quote from the counter Monti Cristo, the movie, which I love. But where, you know, he's in prison and where Dante says to the old Catholic priest, I don't believe in God. And the priest said that that's okay. God believes in you. And but in context, I'm talking about discipleship in the first century, which was actually a part of their educational system, kind of like our high school college, grad school, PhD

kind of system. And discipleship was like our equivalent of a PhD or a postdoctoral fellowship. It was like the top, top, top, top, the highest level of education that only the best of the best of the best could get into. It'd be like, you know,

Sadie, you getting invited to do a postdoctoral fellowship or Harvard or something like that. That's what it was like to become a disciple of a rabbi. And so, and you couldn't apply for it, you had to be invited in by a rabbi, they had to choose you, you would never choose them. And it was again, only for the best of the best of the best. Most kids were all sent home by 12 or 13

to just run the family farm or the family business. Some like the best of the best would go on to a second level of education called the House of Learning, where they would study until about 16 or 17 years old, and then they would all go home and again run the family business, run the farm, become a merchant. It was only like the point zero one percent that became a disciple of a rabbi, which is why it's shocking when Jesus says, if anyone would become my disciple, take up their cross and deny themselves and follow me,

that would be like the president of Harvard saying, if anyone would like a free ride scholarship to get your PhD, just DM me or shoot me an email, you're in. It's like, nobody said that it's unheard of, which is how you make sense of that story in. It's like, on nobody said that it's unheard of, which is how you make sense of that story in Mark 1 about Peter, where Peter and his brother Andrew are fishing and they're running a kind of small business. They probably won't pour. They're probably like middle class dudes running a fishing business in the Galilee and they're

one day running their business fishing and Jesus is walking on the beach and he says, you know, come follow me. And they literally, the text says, they dropped their nets. They walked out on their family business and literally just started walking behind Jesus. Left everything, left their career. I was like, can you imagine just like walking out of your job? Like, random, no plan, no like in a year,

you know, Jesus invites you to apply for this. Like Jesus just walks into your office What day or your job site and it's like hey, say to you want to you want to print us under me? Just drop everything what would make somebody do that and It was just this was the chance of a lifetime. So I was a clumsy analogy, but I I use this analogy in the book where it's like, imagine you never went to college, you dropped out of high school, but you always wanted to become a professor. That was your dream, was to become a professor.

But for whatever reason, your family or life, or you got pregnant or something happened, or you needed to care for whatever reason, you dropped out of high school. And you're working some hourly job in food service and you dropped out of high school, and you're working some hourly job at a food service and you hate it. Imagine if like a world famous professor is on his international book tour and pulls in and stops by to get some lunch, walks in, takes a liking to you at the counter and says, hey, I think that you could do what I do, I think you could become

an even better professor than me. And if you come with me right now, I'll give you a full ride scholarship to Harvard. You can live in my house. I'll teach you everything I know. You can personally mentor under me. And I'll make sure that you, you know, you are a launch into the world to do this thing. But you have to leave right now. I mean, any thinking person would just throw their apron on the floor and storm out the door with Jesus. That's not even a virtue. That's just like basic math.

And that's what it's like to receive this invitation to follow Jesus. It's like the parable that Jesus told about the person that finds treasure buried in a field and sells everything they have in order to go and get the treasure. That's not virtue. That's just anybody good at math.

You know, if you had to sell everything you had to buy a piece of property, but that property had $10 billion buried in it in gold, you would gladly sell everything you own down to your wedding ring and your socks in order to get that because you'd be getting so much more than you had to give up. And that's what following Jesus is like. It will cost you everything, and you will get more than you could fatimately ever imagine, or value.

But the invitation of Jesus is, he believes that all of us can apprentice under him and to becoming people of love. And we want to believe in Jesus, but he also, in that that sense believes in us. It's great. That's so good. So encouraging and hope-filled. And I love that you kept it in the book because it was when I read the first time I was like, man, that is so cool. And then like, man, I said that's so deep. I mean, especially when I think about all the insecurities that I've had in my life to know that like

That's so deep. I mean, especially when I think about all the insecurities that I've had in my life to know that like, God knew those. Like he knows that about me before he invited me into this story, you know, and to be as disciple and to learn and to do the things that I'm doing and tell people about him as inadequate and unworthy as I feel it's not about me, it's about him, you know?

And so I just, I love that. This is so good, this is so rich. I'm so excited for people to listen to this podcast and hear all of this incredible advice. If you have listened to this and you're so encouraged as I'm sure all of you are, doesn't have to stop here. There's an entire book. I didn't even get to half of the things

that I had jotted down to write about. So go check out John Mark Comer's new book practicing the way he has several other resources. What's the best place to find all the things? Yeah, you can go to practicingtheway.org. So the book is named after a nonprofit that I recently started that makes a course and all sorts of practices and resources

that you can do for discipleship and community. Get a couple of your friends together, your small group, and learn about Sabbath or spiritual formation or discipleship or solitude or prayer. So that's all free at practicingtheway.org. Same name as the book. Easy to remember. Easy to remember. Y'all go check it out. The team Elo actually did a series study of his and it was so helpful for our team and just really great. So go check out all the stuff.

Thank you so much, John Mart for all of your advice and live in life you live and leading the way you lead. Super grateful over here in Louisiana for all of it. Thank you, you Sadie. Mm, thank you. Thank you for being who you are and inviting me on. you