WHOA That's Good Podcast - Following Jesus Isn’t Always Up & to the Right | Sadie & Christian Huff | Matt & Lauren Chandler

Episode Date: July 1, 2026

Authors and lead pastors of The Village Church Matt and Lauren Chandler join Sadie and Christian to dig into marriage, healing, and the long, slow work of becoming more like Jesus. They share how the hardest years of their marriage became a turning point when they stopped trying to fix each other and started letting God heal what was broken in them. Matt also opens up about why following Jesus doesn’t always look like winning, and Sadie gets real about calling, comparison, boldness, and learning to be faithful without trying to copy someone else.  https://drinklmnt.com/whoa — Get a free 8-count Sample Pack of LMNT’s most popular drink mix flavors with any purchase https://drinkag1.com/whoa — get a free AG1 Travel Case with 7 free AG1 Travel Packs in your Welcome Kit with your first AG1 subscription order while supplies last! - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Start your free trial at Shopify.com slash woe. Start your free trial at Shopify. com slash woe. Again, that's Shopify.com slash woe. Everybody, welcome back to the Woe That's Good podcast. I hope you're having a great week, but per usual, it is about to get so much better because we have some incredible guests here today. We actually are so lucky because we not only do we have Matt Chandler, but we have his wife, Lauren Chandler, Let's Go, who both have been on Wo That's Good before. Yeah. Yeah. Not together. Not together. And the better portion, I'm always better if you're with.

Oh, thanks, ma'am. It's just the truth. Even my own podcast. I switched from just being me to being Lauren and I. That's awesome. So we could do it together. Sadie could take notes on that. Speaking of which I'm here too, by the way. I did not get a co-host.

I did not get a co-hosts. I have shouted you out as my co-host every episode and you can only do it so much. You're just apart now. That's right. And your pictures on the wall. There is. There is. You are locked and loaded.

Which, by the way, all of the listeners have been stoked about your co-host status. That is true. I've really warmed their hearts. Because for a while, it was, people weren't too sure about it. Yeah, people weren't too sure and people were giving you hate.

People thought I was always too rude to say it. And now they think I talk over you too much. So, look, we're almost seven years in. We're just not working. We're just married. We're going to get a lot of advice from y'all. But we're also going to talk about Matt's new book, Becoming Like Jesus.

And just on the back of it, I have to read this. Jesus never said, Blessed is the perfect believer. And I just feel like this whole podcast is going to be such an invitation to every listener. We're going to dive deep where to go in. But before we do that, I want you to get to know them as a couple a little bit more because we love a good How'd You Meet Story.

So take us back. And ours is kind of scandalous. Whoa. It's a little scandalous, especially this day and age. I feel like 27. Wait, how many years ago was it? They're learning about our marriage. Hold on.

So we got married. We got married in 99. We dated for two years before. Yeah, 97. How long ago is that? I was born 97. Okay, we're 29. We know.

We know. Okay, we probably met around your birthday, honestly. That's crazy. Like your day of birth is when we probably met. Y'all, that's amazing. What? You're a little marker now. There's something there.

There's something there. I've grown this. We've grown this much. Standup for us. So I, like the shorter version for the podcast's sake. is I was preaching at a youth camp in Colorado, Evergreen, Colorado. Lauren was there. She was certainly beautiful. But her dad was profoundly impacted that week.

So approached me and was like a chaper. It was like a chaper. And what was interesting is I didn't know Johnny and Lauren went together. and like during the week like Lauren was like sitting on his lap and I was like bro is nobody gonna say anything about this like what in the world? What kind of weirdo East Texas youth group is this? And so Johnny near the end of the week was like

hey man I would love to I've just been so blessed I would love to do something for you and I said so tell me about your daughter no I did. I had been leading this Bible study in Abilene that had grown quite large but it wasn't a nonprofit

So part of what I was supposed to be doing is turning it into a nonprofit. So I asked him what he did and he was like, well, I'm a like CPA controller. And because I didn't know anything, I was just like, well, do you know anything about nonprofit status? And he was like, no, I don't, but I know who does. And he called Jane over. Yeah. How to incorporate. He knew about it, but he didn't know how to incorporate it.

So I start working with Johnny to make Grace Bible study a nonprofit organization. And then Lauren's working at his office. So not only did I see her and think she was beautiful, she was 17. I was in my early 20s. So when I called the office, I'm talking to Lauren. Lauren was in Baptist Allstate Choir. Baptist Allstate Youth Choir guys. It's legit.

It's legit. I was never Allstate. Christian, did you make Allstate? I actually was. I actually got to be in like a little ensemble. You know. Let's go. I didn't do a solo, but I was in an ensemble.

Okay, I knew. I knew. I was, was out in Abilene for a week and then she was doing the big concert in Dallas. They were driving back into Dallas. So Johnny was like, why don't you just come, like Lauren's got this thing and why don't we just have dinner and we can talk business and then if you want, you can come see Lawrence sing. I wanted to come see Lawrence sing. So I go to her show, concert, have dinner with her parents. Her mom was there. And what's interesting in retrospect is her mom that night. It was

a total interview. She was like, what do you think about kids? Where do you think you're heading? I mean, total interview, but I didn't know her. I just met her. So I was like, wow, she's a little just right on it. And then she invited me at dinner the next week I was driving up to Missouri to preach my grandmother's church, a revival. And they were like, break up your trip, come stay with us. So got in.

We all went to dinner, little Italy. And then went back to the house. And Johnny and Linda were like, oh, gosh, okay, we're going to head on to bed, y'all. y'all have fun went to bed now i know they don't go to bed like that i know johnny's a night owl now but they were just totally trying to hook us up so there was nothing in long view open so we went to chilies yeah chilies and i was man i'm just gonna i was smitten with her like i'd never been smitten i mean i was just couldn't hardly eat true story and and i'm you know i'm five hours away i'm in college and older she's going into her senior year of high school and that kind of kicked off

We dated distance for a year. And then she came to Hardin-Simmons. We got engaged that December and married the summer after her freshman year and after my junior year. Wow. And then been together ever since happily for 20-something years of the 27 years. So true. Did you finish college when you were married? I did.

I actually finished in three and a half years. Took me seven. It took him a long time. We had one semester. where we were married and still in school together. And I'm a good student. I want the A, I want to do really well. And we had an abnormal sight class together.

Monday, Wednesday, Friday. And I was like, this is what we should do. You go Monday. I'll go Wednesday. We'll share each other's notes. And then we'll both go on Friday. That's a great plan. So he went on Monday.

No, I think I went on Monday. And then I was like, okay, your turn. Go Wednesday. And he came back with his notes. I was like, never, never, ever. I'm going to all of them. I'm going to all of them. So I just stopped going.

I just let her go. He did. That's so much. You took all three. I'm a good note taker. Great note taker. Anyway. I mean, I got a good solid C in that class.

Anyway, so that was the only class we like took together. But I was like, yeah, we got different versions of note taking. That's awesome. It's so cool, like, as you're telling the story, because, and we're so thankful for this. We've gotten to become such good friends of y'all's over the years. We've had so many cool and fun memories, like Guatemala together, Canada, like these international, crazy kind of moments that were almost unplanned, didn't know we'd see each other, and then just had, like, had the best time. As you're talking, I'm remembering, like, Christian and I read Mingling of Souls whenever we were engaged. Oh, wow.

And it had such a huge impact on us, such a huge impact. I actually recommend that book all the time. And then when we first started our community group, we called it Surmons, squad and every single week we watched your sermons. Oh, come on. And it's so crazy because y'all have had such a massive impact on our faith and our marriage. And it's almost like because we've gotten to know y'all, I almost separated that from like, oh, you wrote that book that changes. And so as I'm sitting here, I wanted to say thank you genuinely for all, I mean, truly, because so much of what y'all put out has impacted us in the early years of marriage, but continues to. And

And I'm so, so grateful for that. Yeah, we just had John Chris in town last week, and he's engaged, getting married, and he was asking advice. We quoted you. We quoted you. Yeah, we said, well, you're in Matt Chandler's book, mingling his soul, he said, you're going to argue with one person for the rest of your life. Who do you want it to be with? That is so true. That was our marriage advice to him.

I say that on this podcast. Like, the listeners are probably like you quote them all the time. I do. I know, because that had such an impact. So, okay, on that note, though, since we have. we have the people who said the thing we say on this podcast all the time, you're going to argue with someone, choose who it's going to be. Take us back to just that.

I know you were enamored by her, but y'all do talk about having some rough early years. How do you, yeah, how do you in those early years? I guess even I was talking to a friend this weekend and they went through some rough years and seven years was like their kind of turning point. They're nine now and they were like, I can't even believe. how great the past year. We're like different people. And they were like, we would never not do those seven.

I mean, yes, you wish it would be a little bit different. But they were like, it made us who we are. Like from here, you know, it's just like a new trajectory. Can you encourage some people who are in that boat right now? Yeah. I think the reason we give those vows at the wedding ceremony, they are the apex of the ceremony, not the dress, not the rings, not the, it's that moment. Like I don't know if people have ever thought about how odd it is that on the most romantic day of your life, you're acknowledging this could go bad.

You're sane in front of everybody for better or worse because it could be bad, rich or poor. We could be broke in sickness and in health. One of us could get sick in a way that all that brings me delight in you now is now gone and new delights are formed. it's a weird thing to have that conversation in front of all your friends and family on the most romantic day of your life. But you're making this covenant to one another and to God. And in the wedding ceremony, the crowd's role is to now help you keep that covenant promise moving forward. It's not just friends and family. I mean, of course, they're there.

But these are the people that just watched you promise to each other and to God. Look, I'm not going anywhere. Aaha Vah love that I wrote about. I'm not going anywhere. Love of the will. You're my person. So if we make a million dollars and have six-pack abs into our 80s, I'm doing that with you. Man, if we are broke and I have some kind of sickness or injury that all the things you like about me physically are gone, you're my person.

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fix Lauren. And if Lauren would just do what I was saying, then we would have a better marriage. And it took me seven years to realize, oh, no, no, I'm one of the major problems here. If not the major problem. It's not that Lauren was perfect. It was just that I had no idea. Like Lauren's amazing and she makes a really crummy God. Like she's a lot of fun. We laugh a lot. We play a lot. I think she's so beautiful inside and out. And she can't fix what was broken in me. And I thought she would. And then because she couldn't, then my mind was like, well, she's doing it wrong then. let me tell her how she should do it to fix me. But she has no power to fix me.

Only the Lord can do that. There were things like little broken pieces, family of origin stuff, my own insecurities that I was expecting Lauren to fix. And she had no power to fix them. And what's hard is like my, that you heard it in me where I want the A. I want to do it right. Give me the report card that shows me that I made the test. I did not disappoint.

And here I was failing. And I was. I mean, there was stuff for me to own. I could be very absent-minded. As much as I love being considerate, I would just, like, not think about things. And I'm reading her absent-mindedness is rejection. Yeah, yeah.

And because I'm not going to be my dad, I'm not going to be explosive, I'm not going to scream, I'm not going to use my physicality. I would just get icy. Yeah. And so my response was, I'm just going to shut down and withdraw.

Yeah. And meanwhile, I'm killing it at work. So everybody loves me at work, everybody loves me on the road, everybody, and then at home, you know, it's hard. That was different. Yeah. What was the turning point? Yeah. The turning point for me was I was being such a child to my shame.

I'd come home, she had done something that offended me, which was so dumb, and I'm just slamming it, you know, oh, you just, I'm slamming in the kitchen just worried. She's like, you're all right, I'm fine, you know. And then she... You weren't saying, oh, she disressects. No, it's internal dialogue. Yeah, yeah, he would have never said that. Lauren walks around from the living room into the kitchen,

and she just hugged me and she started weeping. And then she pushed back off me and said, I have no idea what's going on in you, Matt Chandler, but I love you and I'm not going anywhere. And it was like, in that moment, the Lord went, it's you, dumb dumb. If she did everything, something's broken in you,

I want to get to it. And so, man, I went to counseling like next day. I'm kind of all in guy. I mean, I just immediately was like, I got to figure out what this is. So that started my journey of kind of unwinding the broken bits in me and inviting Jesus into him. And then I feel like I had a turning point,

just in general. Have you ever heard of Jim Cress? He's on Lisa Turkhurst and Joel Mutamali's podcast. Therapy and Theology. And he says something to the effect of what you don't work out, you live out. And so like those places in you, yeah, that you haven't really worked through. They start taking evidence in your life. And I think for me, I ended up, there were these like, if I'll know I'm good enough when these statements, you know, that I would,

I'll know I'm good enough if this happens. Well, then that would happen. I'd be like, okay, that didn't bring the satisfaction and contentment that I was wanting it to you. And so even just like in our marriage, there are places of that. And I ended up going to celebrate recovery as a young pastor's wife. And it changed my life. I was struggling with perfectionism, people pleasing performance.

It wasn't drugs or alcohol, but, like, like the same brokenness was in me. Wow. And so that, I think, was a turning point for us. For me personally and then us together on top of like that turning point where I started to, I don't know, just the healing that started happening in me and with the Lord, it can't help but affect your, like, most intimate, like relationship on earth. So I think that was a turning point for both of us.

Yeah. I think for anybody who's watching, the temptation is always to be a subject matter expert on where your spouse could be better. And the Bible, specifically the Song of Solomon, it's going to coach you to do the exact opposite. You need to be a subject matter expert on the strengths of your spouse. And then you need to be taking deep looks and what am I bringing to this dance that needs to be sanctified? And then be real curious about why does that offend me like it does? Why does that tend to provoke me the way it does? Because the heart of your spouse, I would probably argue 85, 90% of the time.

It isn't to intentionally hurt you or intentionally offend you or intentionally cause you internal hurt. They're probably not. And I know there's some toxic situations. So what is it in you that's reading it that way? And so if you're in a mess right now, just know we've seen Jesus work not just in our. Because some people will hear, oh, seven hard years must be nice. I'm in my 20th. Yeah.

Which is very real. So my advice is always, you've got to start with you and the Lord, not with you and your spouse. That's really good. So whatever this season is, the Lord has something for you in it. So let's go work on that and then see if this more sanctified version of you can interact in this space in a way where you're not contributing to the dance. Yeah. It's really good.

I have two questions. That's really good. How many years were you all married before you took over for the village church? Two? All this was happening while I was at the building. Three years, yeah. Wow. So I was pregnant with our firstborn, Audrey, when we got there.

And so that was, she's 23. I'm doing math, y'all. Don't do math in public. I was just going to say, like, in hindsight, do you think? We were in ministry. If that would have been a longer period of time, some of those things could have gotten worked out quicker or no. What do you mean? Ask that question a different way.

You started leading this thing that ended up growing big. Oh, yeah. Where, like you said, you were killing it at work. If you necessarily weren't killing it at work that quick in your marriage, do you think the seven years would have been shorter? Oh, that's a good question. That is a great question. I'm not sure. I don't know.

I think I would have found, because of the way I think God built me, I would have found something to pour myself into. where I would receive where little broken mat in me would receive the accolades that he was so hungry for. So I would have found that if I wouldn't even in ministry and I was a lawyer

I'd have just buried myself in cases and made sure I won everything. If I was, I mean, you name it, I would have given myself to that end because that was, you know, my story is home life was pretty not great. And so I kind of figured out

how to manage things very early on. Like by the time nine, I'm basically holding my family together. And so what's interesting is I never, I never took a job in ministry that wasn't something in decline or almost dying that required a hero to come in and save it. Yeah, I say that to my shame. I didn't know I was doing that. That's not prefrontal cortex stuff. That's just you're living out of your wound instead of the presence and power of Jesus. I listened to a sermon you did. This was like for, it was forever guy. I think you did something with Piper. But it was your attention.

Telling the story of how you got to be the lead pastor. Yeah. And you did everything you could not to pretty much sabotage it. Had that happened. I'd never heard that story. Yeah. Well, I didn't want, man, I love the prodigal son and the older brother. I always kind of got on my nerves in the story.

Like there's this epic party going on in the house because this brother who has wilded out and really defiled your father's property. And you don't want to go in. You're sitting outside and you're complaining that you never got a goat. to eat with your friends. Like he just annoyed me. It's like, get in the party, bro. But I have all the grace in the world for the prodigal.

And so in 98, Christianity today, put the skyline in Dallas on their cover and called the DFW area the center of the evangelical world because of all the megachurches and nonprofits that were based out of there. Used to be Colorado Springs, and a lot of those Colorado Springs moved to Dallas. So in my heart, as soon as I saw it, I was like, let me tell you the one place I don't want to do ministry in the center of the evangelical world.

I want to be where it's hard and it feels like combat and that's what I wanted. And so the last place I wanted my life to play out was the suburbs of Dallas, which is so the Lord's sense of humor. Yeah. Because that's where my life has played out and where it will. I mean, I'm sure he's got something for me after the village. but I've been there nearly a quarter of century right now. Wow. That's unreal.

Wow. It's incredible. And it's cool, though, because we just got to go to the village for the first time, just walking the doors. And it is amazing, though, because it is in the center of Dallas, but it's in that Dallas server, but it doesn't feel like that. And that's what's really cool when you walk in. And it's just the gospel on display everywhere. And the heart of y'all's church is so beautiful, and it bleeds into everything you all did. And it's so cool that you've been there for so long.

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One thing I think is really cool in marriage is that like, you know, for y'all, you're married, you're having kids, you're pastor in the village, are you worship leading at that point? So you're leading worship and y'all are going this direction. And then like now you just open this coffee shop and have this whole new adventure. Yeah. And it's so cool in marriage. It's like, did you ever see that coming? Like what are those moments like whenever your spouse goes, I have a whole new idea.

I always knew it was actually. Like if you're around Lauren, Lauren tells the truth in beautiful ways and she creates beautiful spaces. So it's this like it's like wherever she is, that's what she's going to do. And so whether it's our home or the river cabin or the she, she's just going to make a space feel, look beautiful. And so it's not, it wasn't a huge stretch for me for her to go, I want to take. this gift and I want to make a space that's beautiful, that people can come, and there would be just like the peace of Christ would rest on it. So like, think David playing the harp and the evil spirit fleeing from Saul. I want to create a space where when people walk in, there's beauty.

You can get a sense of the truth and goodness of God by sitting in there. Well, man, I've been watching her do that for decades. Yeah, that's cool. So it wasn't like she had this. I've got this new thing and, you know, it'd be like the exact opposite. of her gifts. Yeah. Because then I'd probably be like, well, let's talk about that for saying.

Let's pray into that together. But it wasn't like when she shared it and it was an evolution. It wasn't originally a coffee shop with a bookstore attached to it. There were multiple iterations of it. But every iteration was that same, a beautiful space where the peace of Christ would reign, where people could come in and breathe. So that's so in tune. with what's inside of her that I never thought,

that's a dumb investment or, babe, I'm not sure. Like, if she told me she was going to go teach math at the high school, I'd be like, I actually am good at math. I just want to say that, but just not on the spot. Let's not even do math. And I don't want to teach it. You have that, you know, if she was throwing out something that made me think, are you having a midlife crisis?

Are you okay? I think that's really, that's actually really good advice because I have all kinds of, like I can have like ADHD tendencies and I have all these ideas and things I want to do. And Christian tries to rein me it. And then sometimes I view that as like dream killer. But actually he's like stewarding. We've had many of those. We've had.

Many of those are the family really well. And in seven years, that is the thing I've learned that I'm wrong. It's like like he's protecting my heart when he's saying, hey, that that's not a good idea for our family right now. Whereas I used to get offended and be like, you're killing my dreams. And now I'm like, thank you for protecting our family. because that would be way too crazy in this stage of life. And so I have 100% learned a lot from that

and seeing that I was definitely the problem in that area. But I think, like, that's actually really good advice because you're like, I saw something in her. She does that everywhere she goes, and this is another extension of that, and it was the time for that. And so it was like, I mean, we're about, we're a year away from empty nesting.

Ten years ago, it would have been a terrible idea. Ten years ago, I'd probably been like, ah, I love this, I can see it in you. Yeah. I'm not sure. It's for now. Yeah. But now is, it's time.

Let's go. Let's get it. It's so cool. So story provisions. Story provisions. If anyone in the Dallas area, best. What was it, maple? The storied latte.

Maple Amaretto. All the syrups are housemade. And I will think about it until I drink it again. Come on. What's your favorite part about? Like, what do you walk in and look at and you're like, I'm so glad this is a part? The hospitality. Like, just that people feel like.

When I walk in, I see people either just sitting across from each other catching up over coffee or there's someone over here. They have their Bible out. Someone over here, they've got their laptop out. I went in there one time, and there were four different people. One person was working on, they're producing a show. And so they're working on edits for the show. And then this one's, you know, writing some curriculum for families.

doing like missionary discipleship kind of stuff. I mean, it was just so cool to see all these really creative God-breathed projects happening at my shop. Like they felt like they could do that there. And then other people, like, there's pretty sure a Muslim couple that comes and comes sits in some of our like chairs. And I'm just like, I will go, I'm so glad you're here. I just want people to feel welcome there.

And to maybe not know. it yet, but since the Holy Spirit there. That's what makes me happy. You do. We were like so stoked. We were like kids in a candy store. We got so many things. You did.

We really did. Thank you. It was like a record setting day for a mercantile. Yes. Yes. And I met two people there who were listening to Songs for the Anxious Heart or L.O. worship. And it was like, oh, that's so cool.

It was just a sweet, sweet day. Okay, Lauren, you just said that this is, you think Matt's best book. That's a big thing to say from, wife with many books that your husband has. So I speak to it. I think this is his best book that he's written. It comes from his heart. I think it's just everything that he writes about, he has lived personally.

I've seen it up close. And so I think it is a good representation of what God's done in Matt's life. And what I think is some of his best just wisdom to give other people. And it's so him because it's not perfect. Like he's never tried, he says this over and over again. I'm not wearing a cape. Like I am not the superhero. I'm not the super Christian.

There are no super Christians. Like even Paul wasn't a super Christian. And so it's very relatable, accessible. And I think it's one that you could, so I read it like all in about a couple weeks. But I think you could take your time. and go through it with other people, just come back to it, like yourself a couple of times. There's just so much there that, like I said, is accessible,

but it's very rich and multi-layered. You could read something and get something different each time. So you did good, babe. That's so cool. I love that. See, this is why it's so good to be on together. I agree. So tell about the process of writing it.

Yeah, I think some things that I was getting provoked. by having been at the village as long as I have. We grew by a thousand a year for the first decade, and everyone, that first three or four years, was in their 20s. Like, I think the median age of the village church by year three was like 25, 26, somewhere in there. And so many of them, like, new believers.

Like, it was so grimy in the early years. I mean, like, overdoses in the bathroom on Sunday. morning kind of grimy. Wow. And those 20-somethings that radically came to know Jesus, my first couple of years there, well, a lot of them are still around. And now some of them are baptizing their children. Wow.

And so, but if we're going to have the real honest story, some of them are already divorced now. And others, you know, somebody got sick and died. Others buried a kid. some others. I could just keep going that there's been this mixture and I talk about this early in the book,

there's been this mixture of beauty and brutality in my life and in their lives as we've been matured by the Holy Spirit into the image of the sun. And because of the moment

of history we're living in and because of the phone, I mean, I'll put it right on the phone. The plausibility structure of our day is that winning means up and to the right. So I'm winning in life. If I'm getting happier, I'm making more money,

I'm getting healthier, I'm getting... And so the opposite is true. If that's not happening, then I'm doing something wrong, or God's mad at me, or he's punishing me, or he's... And that's not necessarily true. And so I wanted to write an honest book

on how this happens, that it's deep work over time in community, and it is not up and to the right. It's like this horizontal coil. So once you become a Christian, you're in the coil. Now, every high and every low for the rest of your life is moving you forward, even if your low is from your own idiocy.

Like, Jesus isn't even going to waste that. And so if you're when you get low, running from God, creating space from Jesus, then you're actually running away from the very maturation that Jesus brings. So I start the book with a chapter called an invitation. It's just the gospel where I'm just arguing Jesus doesn't want any distance from you. Like he wants all of you, mind, body, and soul. And no one else is offering that deal.

Like no one wants you mind, body, and soul. And it might even be tempting for us to go, oh, no, my spouse does. But that's not true. She doesn't know what I'm filtering out of my head. It's nothing perverse or gross. But there are moments where I'm thinking, I wish she would just calm down. This isn't that big of a deal. Do you know what I know?

Not to say that. Not to say that. This is really good. And yes, thank you. And it goes both ways. It's true. Like, I don't know her internal dialogue. I don't know how often she's on, man, he's doing that thing again.

I wish she wouldn't doing that thing again. Just a couple times. It's a good thing. We don't know. And so it is, right? But the Lord knows. Every wayward thought. Great.

Every time you're imagining in a different life than the one he's given in you, every time you're ungrateful for his goodness, and he sees all of that. And the gospel says he wants no distance, especially from those places we want to hide from him. At Volvo, safety is not a feature. It's our purpose. Rigorous crash testing. Decades of learning from real accidents. Innovations that help prevent accidents before they happen and help protect you when they occur. going above and beyond industry standards, a vision of zero collisions. Volvo's legacy revolves around you because safety is about helping to keep you and everyone around you safe for life. Learn more at VolvoCars.caps.caps slash safety.

If you're struggling, if you're doubting, if you're wrangling with a compulsion or some secret sin, what you're going to do is you're going to create distance from him, right? until the next event where you feel the goosebumps and then you'll swear you don't have to do that again but as soon as you do it again, you're going to fall into shame and you're going to keep a healthy distance from God. The invitation is to bring all of that into his presence

to be cared for, ministered to, and healed. But because of the plausibility structure up into the right, we just start pretending. And then before you know what, you're deep down the line, maybe you're a small group leader, or you're a pastor, or you're known, and now you can't ever come clean about your sins because it's too costly.

And so now you've got so much distance from the Lord that the maturation he's desiring that's actually going to increase your joy can't be experienced by you. So I make the argument early that, one, Jesus doesn't want any room from me or space between you and he can hold whatever you're carrying. Like you can bring whatever you want. The prayers in the Bible are so radical. Like Jeremiah says, you deceived me and I was deceived. It's one of my favorite prayers in the Bible. It was already in his heart, so why pretend that it's not true and pray some prayer to God about, I trust you no matter what.

Jeremiah was having a hard time trusting him no matter what. So he said, you deceived it. The Hebrew words, patah. It means like you took advantage of me like a weak-willed woman. You imagine being in a small group at your church. And hearing somebody. Or even David's prayers. Like, how long, oh, Lord, will you forsake me?

Like, where is David's heart in that moment? I mean, that's, you left me. Where are you? that's an honest heart prayer. But what we want to do, the way we create distance, is we theologize our prayers, and we're not telling God the truth. But telling God the truth is the path to intimacy,

and intimacy is the path to transformation. And so internal transformation comes when I can bring my full self, as ugly as it is, right into the presence of Jesus and let him wash his grace over me. And so I wanted to write about that. It's great. And then I was thinking,

If it's not up and to the right, it's this coil, what is he actually accomplishing over time? Like what, how can I look at my life and go, am I becoming more like Jesus? Is this actually happening? Well, that took me to the beatitudes. Jesus didn't come to find beatitude people. He came to make them. So it's not like Jesus is looking around going, that guy gets it, come to me. I mean, we see that in the disciples.

Those guys are not, those are not varsity level guys, right? Praise God. You're not changed in the world with those guys. unless you can. And so up until Matthew 5, all we see, we've got one sentence from Jesus, repent for the kingdom of God is at hand. But Matthew 4 says he was traveling around

preaching the good news of the kingdom of God. So the good news of the kingdom is that death and darkness is on the run. I'm here. And one of the things I highlight is in the entire Old Testament, for all the miracles you see, you never see a demon driven out.

You never see an exorcism. never see a demon cast out. Then when Jesus shows up, those suckers are everywhere. And he's casting them out. Like he's never in an argument with them. He never tells them to do something. They say no to. At best, they bartered a deal into some pigs. And then we're destroyed. So the kingdom breaks in. And then what does kingdom living look like? Well, it looks like the beatitudes. So what Jesus is accomplishing to me over and over and over and over again is lowliness of spirit. It's hungering and thirsting for righteousness. It's meekness. It's a growing capacity to show mercy to others so that I'm going to learn those lessons over and over and over again

the rest of my life. But each time I'm in them is going to feel different because I'm further down the coil. But if I will just close the gap between me and Jesus and trust his work, then I'm most frequently able to see whatever the hardship is, it's going to be on that list. So when I got sick, brain cancer, or when I'm trying to fix my marriage and count, can't, blessed of the poor and spirit. Right? Blessed of the poor and spirit for theirs and theirs alone is the kingdom of God. So God's up to something here.

God's up to something in my life. Even when I've been dumb and stumbled and fall because of my own idiocy, I'm learning one of these lessons. I'm having one of these things formed in me, not in a way that's a checklist or a ladder to climb, but these experiences with the Lord that are forming my inner man so that those things start bubbling up out of my life. So good. That's so good.

This is one of those moments that I'm like, I wish I was sitting, listening at home because I'm like, you process. Like so much of what you just said is something to really take in and to process and to think about. And it's so helpful because I think it's really

such a dangerous thing that not just do you think like it's up into the right, the world thinks that, but when the church tends to preach that, it gets really confusing and harmful. because, I mean, we were actually just talking about that this weekend with some girlfriends because I was talking about we've been through just a lot of things lately, you know, and y'all been praying so much for us and like been in it with us. And it's just felt like, and we've shared

this on the podcast before. And when we talked about spiritual warfare, it was like so many times when it tends to be like whenever we have an event and then it happens at the same time or something big and then it happens. And it really got to the point where I actually, started questioning, like, am I supposed to be doing this? Like, is this like, am I doing something wrong? Am I should, is this like God telling me I should stop? Because this is like not going up into the right. This is like going. It fills down. You know, what's happening? But yet the Lord was with us and God was teaching us so much and all that. But I was just like, what? But then like you read Paul's story and he's like, I was shipwrecked. I was stone. I was persecuted. This many times I was

with 39, like, and you're like, oh, and like he was following the Lord wholeheartedly and doing exactly what he was supposed to be doing and still. Yeah. And wrote in prison, rejoice in the Lord always. And again, I say rejoice. Yeah. So that the joy of intimacy with Jesus transcends the circumstance in a way that if you create distance from Jesus, then then you're not going to have that joy and the hardship's not going

anywhere. And so that's why I just so, if you're listening, man, who knows what happened that created that distance. But he's there. I mean, if Luke 15 teaches us anything about the father, he's staring at the horizon, waiting just for your shadow to appear on the hill and he'll run to you. But that idea of closing the distance, it will bring more joy into your life than I think you can fathom and the kind of joy that's there even in what Paul calls affliction. And it's not like thin spirit sprinkle. I'm doing great brother. Sometimes joy has a lot of tears in it. But there's this confidence because Paul didn't say rejoice in life circumstances. He said rejoice in the Lord. And I'm in, you know, in all things rejoice in the Lord. And he so knows it's going to disorient us to

hear at that. So he says, let me say it again. Rejoice in the Lord always. Because the Bible knows, God knows what we are. Heart of hearing. Heart of hearing. And like we think there should be an asterisk on our life and we should be on the, you know, except for me. And he's just not going to give you that. And so, yeah, the big take would just close the distance. Let him do his work. So good. This is so helpful. You always preach the messages that people don't want to hear but need to hear. And it's true. And I appreciate that. That's why we listen to you. That's why we we come and hear it because it's a reminder of, it's a reminder of what's in the word. You know, you've got to be in the word. Because if you're not in the word and you're hearing messages that

everything should be going up into the right, if you're following the Lord and things are going to work out and everything's going to, and you're going to be living your calling. It's all supposed to be good. Then it's like, whoa, you're going to be so confused when it's not. Yeah, I think you will live your calling. And I think as you live your calling, you're going to get shipwrecked and bitten by snakes and beaten by prison. Then you're going to start doubting God and that distance is going to come. And I think too, like this message, because you're saying like deep work over time, over time. That is so unattractive to the world. Oh, my God.

Tell her what the name, what the book. Yeah, so I tried to call the book. I don't know if I'm eventually going to get in trouble, my publisher for saying this. I don't think so. I tried to call the book The Long Journey Home. And they're like, no. They came back and like, people aren't going to buy negative titles. So I said, what do you say more about that?

They're like, okay, imagine you're like complete list person out there. completely out of gas, not quite sure how much longer they can hang in there. You think they're going to go pick up the long journey home? It's even longer than I want it to be. I was like, okay, that's fair. So I called it becoming like Jesus. And then I bet you a hundred times in that book I say the long journey home on this long journey home. Well, that's so good because it is.

It is a journey. And that's the thing. Everybody wants everything instantaneously. And then when it's not instantaneous and whenever there's, I've been talking about like when there's a process, people think there's a problem. There's not a problem. Like, that's a part of the journey, you know? And you can't read any story in the Bible and deny that there was a process to it all.

Nobody in the Bible or in Christian history has gotten up to the right. Yeah. Not a single person. That's like really, really good to stop and consider and think about. And then, but I love to, because people might go, well, then, why would I want to go on the long journey whenever I can get this in the world? because you can't get the fullness of joy in the world. It is empty. You will not find it.

But there really is a fullness of joy in Christ that like we can all testify to and say, no, really, even in that, you're sustained with this fullness of joy. Like in it and it's, yeah. So I love, yes, it might not sound appealing. It's not something you grab off the shelf, but it's actually true. And it's what you live out. And it's so helpful because when you're in real life, and you're in the storms, you're going, okay, but God, you are right here with me.

And you're not questioning God or yourself thinking, did I do? Did he do? What? It's like, this is life. And I love what Cliff said at Passion when he's like, God is good and life is unfair. Don't get the two things confused. Yes. And I was like, yeah, that is really, really good.

Because when you start thinking it's opposite, that's when you start having some problems. So I love that because, yeah, yeah, that's not the message. that the world's shouting out there, but this is just the truth. And we can testify to that from our life experiences recently. I love at the end of what you talk about staying soft too. I would love to hear this from y'all's perspective, like 25 years in ministry, but just a lifelong of, like you said, hard stuff. How do you keep a soft heart?

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I don't know when it's a great question. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think the answer, I'm just such a, I think I'm simple. I want to stay near to the Lord. Yeah. I want to stay low. And then I want to take him at his word. Yeah.

And so even in hard things, that's going to be my play. Yeah. I want to close any distance between me and the Lord, which requires me to just give him the ugliness that's in my heart. Yeah. and then allow him to minister to me, allow the Holy Spirit to minister me in that space, so it strengthens.

And then I want to take serious, like here's, you know, two of the beatitudes, the chapter that was hardest for me to write, there were two chapters that were difficult, the hardest for me to write was, blessed or the merciful for they will receive mercy. I am personality-wise, bent towards justice. And I want mercy for me.

I want grace for me. I want you to give me the benefit of the doubt. But my fleshly bent is to not only want justice on others, but to offer my services to God. You want to use me, like you use the Assyrians to humble the Israelites. I avail myself to you, Lord, to be an agent of your justice. And so the idea. And here's what's wild. Like, why is that even there?

Well, it's one of the few beatitudes that the only way to practice it is for somebody to sin against you. Isn't it? I mean, blessed of the merciful. Well, that means I've been sinned against. I've been harmed. I've been, or there's no need for me to show you mercy. So the call to give to others what you have received from the Lord, that has been a, if I have a one I've tripped over and over again, it's that one. I'm fast, I'm quick-witted, and then sharp-tonged, and it's been something that's had to be

sanctified out of me over the years. But I'm so much better now than I used to be. Would you agree, babe? Oh, absolutely. Okay, good. Absolutely. I was like, wait, wait. It was fast.

Yes, of course you weren't. But that was a hard chapter for me to write. I even told a story of a, like, legitimate betrayal where I tried vulnerability. I tried it. and had somebody take that and weaponize it and use it against me to like very public shame and having to work through that. And then to be real honest that showing mercy doesn't mean like we're best friends again. That's not what that means.

But in the same way God has lavished mercy on me and I'm so in need of it, they has to give me new stuff every morning that I have to fight the fight of showing mercy when what I want to show is justice. It's really good. So helpful. I relate to that. I've gotten a lot better. No, it's so great.

Like, I can see why Matt's always been your guy. I appreciate that. I'm like, thank you for speaking about. Because our situation, and y'all might be similar to where it's like, is in that justice side for me, oftentimes it's like anger comes up. So things that we walk through, Sadie defaults to fear. I default to anger.

and it's like the two can't comfort each other when they're in that headspace. So it's like she wants comfort in her fear and I want justification for my anger and it's when you can't give me that and I can't comfort you, it's just they're never going to they're never going to

reconcile unless one of us ends up apologizing. Like you said, like finding that in the Lord for yourself, not your spouse is so important because like we have to find that in the Lord because we, in those moments of weakness, cannot be that for each other because of what we need. And like you said, we are crummy gods for each other.

Like, you have to have that in the Lord. So it's so good. What was the other hard chapter to write? Peacemaking. And peacemaking's hard for a different reason. Peacemaking's hard, one, because I was thinking about the reader. And peacemaking is super risky. It is super risky.

And you will learn costly. And you will most frequently learn through doing it wrong. And I didn't have the space arranged to give kind of these, because it's so nuanced, peacemaking so nuanced. It's not, I wrote clearly, it's not peacekeeping, which is, I think, like a default Christian, let me not say anything because I don't want to offend or them to think I'm being judgy while they're heading headlong into what's going to destroy them. And so I

Yeah, it was a hard chapter Mainly because I was worried about readers Over zealous readers in particular They would read that chapter And then come to someone harshly Rather than come in the spirit That Jesus is calling you To be a peacemaker

Yeah, I've never thought about Yeah, the peacekeeping versus peacemaker It's such a different animals I've never thought about that Most Christians, my experience Most Christians, there's two there's two edges that you have to be careful of. You have people that are conflict-averse,

so they'll never say anything. Then you have people that pride themselves on being conflict people. And I think both of them are going to do peace-making wrong. So the peacekeeper won't say anything, and the peacemaker will use a bat instead of a scalpel. And Jesus always uses a scalpel. He's not creating all sorts of.

of collateral damage to make the cut. And that's what he's calling us to be like, like a surgeon. Not like, I'm not bashing you. I'm trying to make an incision to let that breathe so you might be healed. Why do you think that? I've seen that on social media so much lately.

It's like young, it's like younger people, like preachers, pastors. But it is, it is so overzealous and it is so like, it's just boldness, but it's like in the name of righteousness and it's just so harsh. Yeah. I'm like, it's not loving.

Well, it's like them, and it's like them talking, and then it's like a video clip of someone else saying something, and then they're taking what they're saying. I can't know the reactive videos. Why do you think that, like, how do you think we default to that of like, in the name of boldness, I'm going to speak to this and make peace,

but it is going to be just this. Yeah, I want boldness. I want, you know, Lloyd Jones called preaching and teaching logic on fire. I'm saying a false boldness. Like, I think people think, people are like, I'm going to speak with this because Paul was bold. Yeah. It's like Paul wasn't like always trying to have a clickbait hot topic.

Well, and most of the time Paul had a relationship with the people he was being bolded. Yeah. That's really good. Like you hear me talk to the village church. You're hearing a man that's been in the trench with him for a quarter century. I've been in the hospital with them. They've been in the hospital with me. I've wept for their children.

They have wept for mine. I have, so I have the relational capital to lean into them in a way that I might not, some other group. Now, I always want to be bold, but the more specific cuts, that's like home for me is different than, you know, some other setting. But always want to speak the truth in love. Yeah. And I don't follow a lot of people that do that.

I don't, I don't, it's not good for me. Yeah. You actually, miraculously, because this dinner that we had when Honey was a baby, I was barely sitting at, but you said that to me at that dinner. Yeah. Because I was really, I was really wrestling with that idea of wanting to live boldly for the gospel, but stewarding a platform well where I was like, I want to be unashamed of the gospel and preach it fully.

But there are some things that I'm wrestling with publicly going in these things that I was like, should I share this? Is this helpful? Is this hurtful? And I don't want to not share because I'm not bold to share, but I don't want to share and then harm people because there's so many people listening and because I don't have a personal relationship. How is that going to be heard? Like you said, you're thinking of like the reader who's going to read it like that.

I'm thinking about that. I'm like, you know, I'm writing to this book or I'm speaking on this podcast or I'm preaching this. And there's going to be so many thousands of people that hear in so many different contexts. And they don't know my heart and where I'm coming from always. And I remember you saying, like, not everything, like, yes, be bold, yes, be honest. But like, you don't have to be bold about everything if God doesn't call you to say that, you know? Yeah, be clear about the gospel. Be clear about the gospel, but also you were like steward your influence and your social.

and your spirit of influence. And that was really, really helpful for me. Oh, man, I love that. That would be really, really helpful. Because I do think you see that, and some people's like, I'm going to be bold. And so they just go, and it's like, it's actually hurtful the way that you're speaking.

It's boldness, but it's like. And I want to give benefit of the doubt. I think it sells right now, too. I think if you want to build a following, get an enemy and start attacking it. And so I think it's a, you want to build a platform. It's a great way to do it.

I want my platform to be the gospel of Jesus Christ. He was absolutely fearless about that. And when the text led him to confront, he confronted. But he didn't make his whole platform picking apart the cultural moment we're in. What guys out there doing it? Go get it. Maybe that's their call. I mean, I genuinely don't know.

That's going to be between them and the Lord. He's their servant, not mine. But I don't want to look at them and go, oh, should I be doing that? Yeah, if it's not your plane. I know I'm not. Because it works. Yes, I think that's so good. That's what you have to come to is like it might work,

but it might not be what I'm called to. And so I'm going to do it this way. And it might not get as much attraction. It might not get as much, but it's what the Lord has. Faithfulness. Yeah, it's faithfulness. And I think longevity in that direction, you see fruit in it, you know?

But, okay, sorry, we're running out of time. But the last question I genuinely do want to ask you because I'm curious, and I wonder, I bet other people are too, You've passed to church for so long. You've written so many books. Y'all do a podcast. And like, you're already working on your next book. You're preaching sermons Sundays.

Like, how do you always have fresh? Because for me, I just finish a book. And people are like, you get right another one. I'm like, I can't even like think about that right now, you know? Yeah. How do you keep just staying steady in the word and the Lord to continue to pour out? Yeah. Has that gone in waves?

Yeah, it certainly goes in waves. one of my favorite parts about my life is, like, I'm in vocational ministry. I can't believe I get to do this. Like I'm writing a sermon every weekend. That's study every week, in the word every week. And then I'm naturally curious. And so I think one of the things that has caused pain in our life over our years together is in different seasons, people would put me in different tribes.

And then I would get to some part of biblical theology where I didn't land where that tribe did. And then that tribe would turn or that this tribe would turn. And so a lot of our, we kind of feel like spiritual orphans. But I want all of it, man. I want all there is to having to know of Jesus that this little body can hold. And so I am super curious in my reading, in my listening, in my friendships. I just want to understand as fully as I can. And I don't think any one little tribe or stream has all the answers.

And so I think that natural curiosity, and then I want to help people, man. I want to help people with honest stuff. Not to say that there's a bunch of dishonest stuff out there. But I know on sanctification, I was like, why didn't anybody talk about how slow this is and how painful this is? Why don't anybody want to say that? Where's the book on that? And maybe it's out there. But then I might be out there, but it's not titled The Long Journey.

That's the problem. We don't know about it. They don't even know that that's the book. We need it on the front cover. Told you guys. So, yeah, I have things that God starts to put in my heart. And then they percolate up. And then I start studying and then I start discovering.

And then I start testing with, you know, these four guys that I train jihitsu with or these. And then those, they become conversations. And then I start seeing and in people. testimonies when they're sharing their testimonies. And then it all starts to, and then I'll get the green light from the Lord. Sermon series book. Yeah, it's great. We were just talking about like if it's not your way to carry, but it works for other people.

So I was just at this conference and it was so amazing, like absolutely incredible, but it was a different environment than what I'm used to. And so the night before, it was like the most powerful worship, like just so powerful. and then Christine was speaking and like Christine just like walks into the worship and she's just like declaring all this truth and everyone's just like so in this moment and it's so powerful.

And then like Anna Golden's in the back and she's like kind of singing over what Christine's saying Christine's going with the band and then somehow it all just like comes out perfectly and then she's right into her message. So the next day is me. And they're like, okay, so you saw the flow last night. I was like, I saw it.

I saw it. I saw that. I'll tell you what won't be happening tonight. But I was like, I, And I told him, I said, I loved it. It was amazing. It was so powerful. I've never done that, like walked into a moment like that.

And so I said, y'all have to just kind of bear with me. But I'm happy to go up there while they're leading worship in that. I just, I've never done it. And it was like the sweetest thing. And I'll just say, because it was so sweet. Earl and On Nico are pastoring. And they're like, oh, that's okay. Like, do you want to do it?

And then they're like, hey, let's just get Anna to close it and pray. And I was like, okay, but, you know, but it was so great. And then they literally pull me in the room. They're like, hey, let's get your mic. I pull it in the room. And then Earl goes, we want what you have. And he's like, you don't come in here. And she's like, you have to be what we are.

He's like, you be who you are. We invited you to be you. And he goes, so let her close in prayer and just go up there and be you. And I was like, thank you. Like, I really do feel so good about that. And it's funny because we do go to a more traditional church. And it's just very laid back and chill and the worship. It's just a little bit different.

And so it was really funny. but then I went up there and my whole message was on anointing in the Holy Spirit and then Earl was like, what? Like, it was so funny. And Christine, they were making fun of me. And I was like, I want all of it. I love all of it.

It's just my personality and what I'm used to. And so I think that this is a good point of what we're saying. It's like, I want all of you, Lord. I want all of you, Lord. Anything that I can hold. Don't put me in a tribe. Don't put me about, because I'm not putting you in a box.

But there are things that are just more natural to who I am and how I can't, then there, and there are for Christine. And she can walk in there and own that moment. You would make a really crummy Christine game. Oh, it's horrible. And the Holy Spirit and anointing does not have a style. Yeah.

Like, it is you, you know, and it is Christine and how God's made y'all. And it's Matt and it's Christian. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? And I think that's just, that was just such a beautiful reminder. And I think back to the first time I spoke at Passion and I was so nervous. And I turned around and I said, how do I do this to Christine? And then she said, what part of it?

I said, like physically. like get up there because I was so scared. And then she said, you, she said, you are in wanting to be you. Don't go up there and try to be me. She literally said that. That was seven years ago. Yes. The first time I suppose when we got married.

Seven years later, I'm speaking the next day after Christine. And I'm feeling that same tension of like, I'm not her. And that worked so well for her, but I don't think that's going to work for me. Yeah. It's the coil. So you went through it again. Another low thing. but your experience was very different than the one seven years ago.

Yeah, so different. One, because you have seven years of God's faithfulness when you stand up to proclaim his word being with you and moving in power. Yeah. So you did it again, but it was a lot faster, and you spotted what it was. Yeah. And you've grown in confidence because you have seven years of God faithfully coming through. That is the coil metaphor in a perfect little.

Really cool. Yeah. I'm glad I shared it. I was thinking. I was like, I think this is exactly what we're talking about, and I just experienced that. So thank you all for coming on the podcast. Thank you for writing this book. All are the best.

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