WHOA That's Good Podcast - Here's What To Do When Your Anxiety Spirals | Korie Robertson & Rebekah Lyons

Episode Date: June 7, 2023

Rebekah Lyons is a speaker, author, mother of four, and a podcast host with her husband, Gabe. Rebekah joins Korie to share her five rules for not just overcoming anxiety but why steering INTO anxiety helps us build up resilience in our lives. Don't RUN from anything that makes you afraid, rather learn how to not let it control and override your entire life. Korie shares how she worked with Sadie on knowing when she was having an anxiety attack and how to work through it. Rebekah talks about why she started focusing on becoming resilient in her life and pursuing a journey of emotional health with the Lord. Plus, why do we feel the instinct to pull away when relationships get too intimate or too personal? And how can we encourage each other to be ourselves and be human, even though we want to show only the best versions of ourselves? Rebekah shares one moment and one phrase uttered to her husband that changed her life — and she encourages us ALL to not be afraid to name our pain! We can't begin healing if we haven't named the pain in our hearts and minds! And how can we retrain our brain and be more aware of what — and Who — we're agreeing with in our darker moments? Rebekah's book "Building a Resilient Life" is available now!  Get a 4-week trial, free postage, and a digital scale at https://www.stamps.com/whoa https://www.stitchfix.com/whoa — Get 25% off when you keep everything in your Fix! https://nativedeo.com/whoa — Get 20% OFF your first order with code WHOA! - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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I am not Sadie, I'm her mom and I'm so happy to be hosting her podcast while she is home tending to her two baby girls, which makes me feel a little emotional. Every time I say that, my baby girl has two baby girls, and she's just an amazing mom, and I'm excited to get to do this for her and host her podcast while she is doing that. So today, I am really excited to talk to my good friend Rebecca Lyons. Rebecca is a speaker, a writer, and she has a podcast that she does with her husband Gabe. That is amazing. And you should check it out. It's called Rhythms for Life. And she has a new book out that we're going to talk about today and I have my copy

that's like, got turned down and under have my copy that's like got turned down and underlined and all that because there's so much good stuff in here it's called building a resilient life so and more than all of that Rebecca is a good friend we've been friends since probably like 2015 so we've seen each other through lots of life like moves and new kids and adoptions and kids graduating from high school and moving on to college and all the things. But anyway, welcome to WoW That's Good. Thank you so much, Corey.

This is so fun. Love talking to you. It is so fun. Yes, anytime we get to talk is really good. I feel like we just have so much to catch up on every time because our lives are moving fast. We have a lot of kids and a lot of things happening. But here we're here today to talk about your new book and to do what we always do on what that's good is to hear the best piece of advice that you've ever been given.

I know that you've been on here before, so you've already given your best piece, but like your second best, I'm sure there's a lot of advice that comes to mind when I say your best piece of advice. So what's the best piece of advice you've ever been given? Yes, I feel like we're always in need of good advice. So I would say probably since I was on here, the first season, my advice that was given to me since then was walking through a hard season

and a lot of it is in this book. But the words that were spoken to me was, you're not alone and this is not the end of your story. And it just was really helpful for me to get perspective in the moment when the immediate feels really big. So this you're not alone and this is not the end of your story. That is so good. I feel like you're speaking specifically to people right now. And if you're watching this and listening to this and you're hearing this and you feel like, okay, that's speaking directly to me, know that it is.

Because we actually prayed about this, we prayed just before we came on to say, like, what can we share that we are learning, that the people that are listening need to learn? So, yeah, you're not alone and this is not the end of your story. I love that so much. All right, let's talk about resilience because that's what your new book is about. And I love that topic so much. I think it's so important for anytime, but specifically for right now. So just tell us a little bit about why you decided

to write about resilience and what's important about that topic for you and for us all right now. Yeah, absolutely. I think growing up as a first born, I felt resilient. I wouldn't have had language for it at the time, but there wasn't a lot of things that I didn't step toward. You know, first born, type A, a little bit of a control freak.

I just felt like I would, you know, like to move forward and advance in some things. And of course, this changed when I had my first born son at 26, found out six hours later that he had a Down syndrome diagnosis. So as a baby, having babies, this was very new. So that was the first time I think I felt like really confronted with grief. And then a decade later, we moved to New York City and within four months of our time in New

York City, I started to have panic attacks, rooted in claustrophobia that began on planes, and they continued in trains, elevators, always in crowds. So that lasted about a year and a half, which eventually became panic disorder, but I wouldn't again had language for it at the time. I was just very, very desperate. And the old Rebecca who could kind of do anything, and take a mountain, just really found her frailty and really crashed.

But God drew me here, and again in 2020 it feels like okay in every decade there's some version of adversity that comes I mean there's always like chronic you know things that happen in life but maybe the bigger things that are become benchmarks or trajectory shifting seasons for me have happened in each decade 20s 30s and now, and now 40s. And I would say the 40s was for sure COVID because I remember when everything shut down, our oldest Cade, who again, you know, in my 20s was born. And that was a really hard year of adjusting and grieving and learning new things and being just novel at everything, just not knowing what I was doing.

And then it felt like in 2020 he had the hardest year of his life and it took me right back to the trauma of year one. So this was two decades later at age 20. He was struggling with what all of us would probably struggling with, but he didn't have words. He's largely nonverbal and he's would be considered one who has a hard time communicating and even processing pain and so or anxiety. And so we found his window of tolerance just diminishing, diminishing, diminishing, so much that he would take his unrest out on himself. And so he would, you know, hit himself, slam his head into walls or headboards. I write about this in the first few pages of the book because it was just so scary. And honestly, we would be with all the psychologists and family counselors.

And we were like, didn't know how to help him. Meanwhile, we're all home together, navigating this as a family. So he's our oldest now 22, but we have a son who's 20 years. So you know, and then Kennedy who's 18. So they've grown up with Kate and known special needs, but this was like a new reality of trauma. There was a new version of chronic trauma. And I remember about 18 months like there was like even,

you know, people were hurt. Like it just, it became kind of volatile. And I remember walking in the woods one day with the Lord, because at COVID, like there was nowhere else to go, but like outside and walking the woods or something. And I just said, God, are you gonna lift this? Because it had been about 18 months, it's all began, and in my spirit, you know,

I just, I felt the Holy Spirit just say, not yet, but I'll be here for as many whaling walks as you need. And that wasn't the answer I was looking for. It definitely wasn't like, oh wow, this might be adversity without an end date. And I think a lot of people found that in COVID because the term kept changing.

Like we're like, we can flatten the curve in two weeks and then all of a sudden, two months and then two years. And we're all finding some version of languishing on the other side of that. And it's partly because in survival mode, you almost the adrenaline keeps you going. But when things even begin to resume, you know, what we would now call normal, we still are not okay.

It's not the same. We've we've almost like your body is able to then let down and you're almost able to post Trauma grieve something that you didn't have even the bandwidth to do because you were in survival mode And so when God said no not yet, but I'll be here for as many willing walks as you need. I realized in that season, like, okay, God's got Resilience that I need to learn. This isn't just for my kids because originally I thought this will be a great topic for next Gen Gen's like they've not known like a war or I guess they now do but at the time is like they hadn't known something more close to them more like But at the time, it's like they hadn't known something more close to them, more like just trial or hardship and what I know is that adversity awakens resilience. But you have to have gone through it.

And so I wrote it initially for my kids and then the more I studied it and the more I experienced this prolonged chronic loss in my own life, I was like, wow, this is for me. This is for all of us. This is a story and this is a this is a theme that we're going to all have to navigate in the days ahead, not just for 2020 through 22, but honestly a new reality of how we see the world from 23 going forward. I love how you share so

much about your own story and your kids and all that. And I just think that it's so important because, you know, that vulnerability, when you do share of the things you're going through, everyone's like, oh, yeah, I see that too. Me too. I've been through things like that. And, you know, we've all been through things and the longer you live, I'll be 50 this year, the more you understand that. There's something that you said in the book about how, you know, your faith grows through adversity. That's actually where your faith grows the most.

And I think the longer you live, you look back and you can say like, oh, yeah, that's what you were doing in my life then. That's how you were growing me there. There's something else you talked about and you touched on it just then, which was about how, you know, different times, we see that, different times

in over history, like when there's a war or there's hard times, people come together and it seems to grow already, resilience. But this time, for some reason, it felt like, rather than us getting stronger in this hard time as a people, as a country, as a generation, we might have gotten weaker in some ways. Why do you think that is? What do you think that is? What do you think that is? What do you think that is?

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and a free digital skill. No long-term commitments or contracts, just go to stamps.com, click the microphone at the top of the page and enter the code WoW. Well, historically over the centuries, long before we had social media or even a technology or even the modern evolution, right? People still underwent trauma and they might have not had a clinician that they could go

higher for an hour and go sit. They might not have had medication that they could take. And so I had to study like centuries, people have had horrific things happen. And yet humanity is still going, which means they found some form of resilience to keep humanity going. And so what I learned is that historically, healing from trauma was based on four factors. And the first one was tether to a clan

or a tribe or a community, right? Like people in your life, which is why the last rule of the book is endure together. There's five rules of resilience we'll get into. but the last one is endure together. There is no possible way that you can build resilient lives alone. And unfortunately, with lockdown, we had to very much be in isolation. The second way people would heal or resolve trauma throughout the centuries was that they would have regulating rhythms in their lives. Like just habits and patterns that they were always doing. And so with, again, you're not only to

not be with your people, but also to stay inside or just sit on your hands. Like you couldn't do your regular things that kind of created some sense of purpose, some sense of meaning, whether it was things that kind of created some sense of purpose, some sense of meaning, whether it was minister or do coffee with a friend or connect or go just work at work, like do meaningful work where you leave a part of yourself in that kind of work. It just all felt like everything was just stopped.

And then the third thing would have been a belief, like a belief or a value system that you ascribed to. And then some form of action that demonstrates that belief. So again, we weren't able to meet together in churches, we weren't even as a household of faith, able to do that, and then the fourth thing would be like natural hallucinogens from plants and things, like things that we would now call medication

or something that would help us with the struggle or the repair of our brains. And and so now what you've seen in modern day is that's flipped upside down, right? Like the number one focus would be go to medication and then maybe get counseling and then maybe ask God and invite God into this if you're a Christian or you're someone who has as a person of faith. And then fourthly, yeah, it God into this if you're a Christian or you're someone who has as a person of faith. And then fourthly, yeah, it'd be great if you had some friends.

And it's just a, but we're not made like that. We are very much communal people made by a communal God. And from the beginning, in creation, God said, it is not good for man to be alone. Like that happened in the first beginning of the story. So this is not an optional thing to go. You can do all the right practices and go to the right counselors and take the medication that helps you.

If you're not in relationship, you are not going to flourish and you will not be resilient. And so I think that was why COVID was different. Because in wars in the past, you would have people who would go overseas and they would be a tribe and they would have a shared mission. They would have something beyond themselves that they actually had some agency to enact. And so that's why suicidal ideation tripled in teens in just 12 months because they didn't have any bandwidth to do something about it. And then of us really had anything we could do to find resolve. And we are people who are made to actually make wrong things right,

to like take agency to try and redeem what is broken. And when we're told, like, you don't really have to say in that, we'll let you know what to do next. Humanity is not going to do all of that. Wow. Okay. I'm just going to say, well, that's good because I felt like that just so named exactly what we all just went through. And you might want to like go back everyone that and listen to it again, because that is the first step in trying to figure out like a how do we heal from it? We do have to kind of like look at like what happened and how do we

like shift it and just just that understanding that we did we've kind of like look at like what happened and how do we like shift it. And just that understanding that we did, we've kind of flipped the narrative that had that, you know, help people that builds resilience. And it's so important. I love that. I had put that in my nose to just talk about that end your last role, which was World Number Five

was that endure together and how important community is. And in this world today where we are so connected, virtually, we are so disconnected, physically and emotionally, and how do we, how do we change that? How do we, and I think part of that is just acknowledging it and realizing, okay, this is a problem, this is not healthy, this is not the way we're meant to live and how do we turn that around.

Yeah. I also wanted to talk about, because you did mention the five rules, and the first one is name your pain, and you talk a lot about shame, which I thought was really interesting to, you know, this is a book on resilience, and you start talking, you start with shame, so tell us a little bit about that, and why you felt like that was important to start off with. Yeah, well, the five rules begins with name the pain because so often we will internalize the pain, but we never actually put words to it and get it out of our body, which is why we do struggle with isolation and alienation and relationships because shame separates, shame makes you hide, and shame breaks relationship. So if healthy relationships are the first key to having a resilient life, then we need to figure out why we pull away when relationships get too intimate, or they start to see your flaws,

and then you just want to hide. Like, we all want to show the best versions of ourselves, and even honestly to the people in our homes. Like we all want to show the best versions of ourself and even honestly to the people in our homes. Like I want my kids to always see the mom who's championing them and supporting them and making a homemade dinner. And yeah, they see the other side of their mom. And then I go to the closet

because I feel so full of shame because I handled some poorly or I just didn't rally in the way I should have or wanted to. And then I can create a narrative internally like I'm a terrible wife or I'm didn't rally in the way I should have or wanted to. And then I can create a narrative internally, like, I'm a terrible wife or I'm a terrible mother, or I'm a terrible friend, because I keep seeing all the ways I fall short of the ideal version of who I am, versus if I just invited my family

into my vulnerability of how this buries me sometimes privately, then maybe they'd meet me there and say, you're not alone. And this is not the end of your story. Like, and that's what happened in the beginning of the book, as I finally was handling myself so poorly, as we were navigating K those first couple of years and just being home. And, you know, addressing things that quite frankly, probably had been dusted under the rug in the, in the name of

busyness and going and on mission and all the beautiful things that happens with calling. But there's a darker side of that though if you don't get real honest with the heart with the people who are right under your roof. And so that's kind of the name, the pain because I realized my pain was rooted in shame. And the shame was that I would have a shame response, which is very much like an anxiety attack. I found my physiological response to shame mirroring so much what I would feel when I had anxiety. I would kind of have a racing heart.

I would start to feel like anxious. I would want to run. I would kind of want to get away from the situation just to calm myself down from reacting in a way that would overreact or say something I regretted, and then I would want to retreat. And I was like, okay, that's what I always do with anxiety. Or if I'm starting to feel a little bit of claustrophobia, I have those same exact reactions physiologically, and then I got to run and get off that plane or out of that elevator or

out of that subway before my body is ravaged in fear. So, it is more intense in these close spaces, but the onset was very similar and it was helpful for me to connect those dots and go, there are some things that I need to confess. When I started finding that I had this physiological response, whether it's with anxiety or even with my people, I was like, God, there is something that has got to get out of my body because my body can no longer contain the emotional unrest that's happening inside.

It's like, needs to go somewhere so that I can begin to heal them. And that's when I told Gabe, kind of the words that choked, like I felt like a choking when the words came out of my mouth and I just said, I'm broken and I'm afraid I will never change.

And just saying that was, oh my goodness, it was like, I'm like you, Cory, I'm like in my upper forties, like I'm right behind you. And I was like, how does it take almost half a century to actually recognize this and then say it out loud. And my husband is just amazing, but he just was so gracious. And I think I just needed it so that it would no longer

have that power of me and he just said, we're all broken. You're just more aware of it. Yeah. And I was like, okay. So good. Like just meeting me there was like, all right. Yeah, I right, yeah.

I mean, I thought I was really alone and feeling broken. And that I should have figured the South by now or just been a better human by now. And that literally was the shifting point for my resilience journey. Like when I was able to just say it and it no longer got a strong one.

Over me, I no longer ran from conversations, hidden the closet and cried. You know, didn't, wasn't more honest with my kids or vulnerable or like just leading with apologies or saying, hey here, here's the things I'm still working on, you know, yeah, it's just a matter that I've written a bunch of books or spoken on stages. Like the heart means what the heart needs. And I'm just glad that I haven't, you know, gone another decade without acknowledging this. It's always fun to change your calls and out from season to season.

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that over you in that moment. So, you know, if you're listening today and you need to go to someone and say, what is holding you back, what you're really feeling, but make sure you go to someone who's trusted, who has, wise who loves you, go to a counselor, or go to someone who loves you, and just be able to speak the thing that is hurting you,

that's holding you back, and let someone speak those words over that we're all broken, we are all in the same boat. Some of us are just more aware of it than others. I think that's so true and so good. I remember just in our own life, I remember a time, whenever I was going through a really difficult moment. We had adopted a new son and our life was busy crazy and all that.

We had just gone on a trip. It's kind of our first trip with everybody. And I was in my bedroom, came back just like balling crying and I don't cry a lot. I'm like, I'm like you. I'm like, I'm first born, I kind of hold it all together. My response is not to run, but I get acid reflux and I start to feel it. I'm like, okay, something's wrong. I need to do something I need to deal with. Yeah, that's my body's response. So we all have our bodies do. They respond in this way, but I remember I was in the bedroom crying and Sadie came around and she just was

coming in to tell me something, just open the door and sees me like falling and the bedroom is like, oh no, like what's wrong with mom, you know? But it was such a good moment because the moment for us to be able to, it moved our relationship in a different level with I think her and all of our children to be able to say like, hey, this is hard. This is hard for all of us.

And it's not just hard for you. I know it's hard for you, but it's also hard for me and that's okay. And I do think just being real with our family is the first step of saying like, we don't have it all together. Like you said, even though even if we speak on stages or we write books or whatever, it doesn't maybe have it all together and there are things that are really hard in life and that we need each other and we want another to get through. Another thing you talk about is your daughter Kennedy and some of her anxiety and panic attacks and I've been through that with Sadie as well. We talk a lot about that on here.

One thing that I've noticed, people come to me and ask me as a mama because a lot of people don't have a mom that can help them through. They may be their mom maybe dealing with her own things that she hasn't healed from or their maybe their mom maybe abs in their life. So as a mama, I would love for you to just speak to young girls who are women, anybody who is going through that kind of thing, panic and anxiety. What are some things that you did to help Kennedy through those things? And would you just share some of that with us right now. Yeah, for sure. I mean, for her, it started probably at 13 and she's almost 18. So I would say actually end of being 12. So we're like six years. And honestly, she's a new creation. It's so

wild to see how, you know, and just to encourage you moms or even you girls in middle school. Like, there's so much raging in your body in this season of puberty and like middle school and becoming an adult quite frankly and and it feels scary and the body does react in certain ways and then the moms, you know, for credit for you you're doing this for the first time too. Like, we're all rookies, and you might go, I don't feel like I have enough for my daughter because I'm experiencing now, which because we're only as happy as our saddest child. And so I feel like we kind of meet our kids where they are in the struggles that they have. And thankfully, I had walked through some healing in anxiety not long before Kennedy, but was able to at

least offer those tools to her that were working for me. And so what I immediately, just in the last book I wrote, rhythms of renewal, there are some real regulating rhythms, like I talked about earlier in this show, regulating rhythms that we can access immediately, right when we're starting to feel anxiety. And one of those first things is I say, just get up, move your body, get outside. Like just stop the spiral in your room or on your phone, put your phone down.

Don't even take it with you for your walk to take a picture of you going for a walk. Like just go outside without a device. And I would say just try to walk fast if you can, like just elevate that heart rate a little bit. If you elevate it for, you know, about 15 to 20 minutes, that will release serotonin in your brain immediately, which is the happy hormone,

and it gives you a sense of regulation and well-being and this forward momentum that gets you kind of out of the funk. So even the movement starts your brain to free flow more calmly versus just obsessing in a loop about the same exact thing. So if if it's daytime, I always recommend that right away drink some water and then also slow inhale exhale. So just breathing very slow and then exhale breathing very slow. There's a lot of different versions of this, but I just say if box breathing is too confusing, I just do like a six feet inhale, hold it for a couple seconds, and then an eight count exhale. And the one way that your body will naturally start breathing deep and exhale is if you do like standing up, do a toe touch. It's, it's wild how God made the body that when we bend low, are we kneel, or we even get a child's post on the floor, our body immediately begins a long, slow exhale.

And so if you have rapid breathing, move your body in a way that allows you to breathe slower naturally without like forcing it and like trying to count and get all confused because you're anxious. So those are two basic things, but a lot of times anxiety happens at night, right? It happens if kids are in their rooms with their phones and they're on Instagram or they're scrolling. So we definitely have always had our kids leave their phones downstairs, we have the RO box where like everyone plugs in

and we kind of, you can even gamify who has it in the box the longest. So that's kind of a fun tool. But just something where they're not having it with them upstairs. But Kennedy has still awakened in the middle of night and come in our room at three in the morning, just gritting beer. And that's where we start to just with her go, okay, what does God say about where you are right now? And she's got, I've got 30 verses for anxiety on my website that people will go to and download and keep it in their backpack or keep it in their briefcase and for her, she has it available to her in a room. But just like start saying those verses and you'll find at least two that you just begin to memorize

and you just begin to say them out loud. And then what I do to, which I think is if you're a person of faith, this is just so, this is God, right? So Jesus Christ Himself is the Prince of Peace. And when we want to have peace in the moment of this anxious brain, this overactive sensitized brain, I just out loud with my mouth will say, Jesus, I submit to your covering of peace. You are my peace. Not like you give me some peace so I can get through this.

No, you are my peace. And so I reject the temptation to be fearful right now. Like I just say no, like in Jesus' name, I reject and renounce any kind of fear that's coming against me. And instead I submit myself to your covering of peace. I come under your covering of peace. And just by just saying no to this and yes to this, in the moment verbally gives you again authority to go,

no, I'm not gonna continue to make agreement and let it spiral in my head I'm going to get loud take that captive with my actual mouth because you can't think a lie and speak truth at the same time Like the mouth will win. So that's why he's always saying in scripture confess with your mouth Because there's power in what you say out loud. And so Kennedy I'll say, let's pray, but you pray first. And then I'll pray after you. Sometimes we pray for our kids, but it doesn't teach them agency to declare with their own mouth. So I say, you pray first. And then I'll follow after you and agree with all that you're saying. And I will be your mama bear like in the corner, finding me, but there's going to come a day where I'm going to ask you to not

come downstairs when this happens. And that's where we are now. I was like, God's really wanting to do this, give you breakthrough through him under our roof. So that when you head off to college in three months, you know what to do. And so that's where she's been her senior year more than ever is just going like, I knew that I didn't wanna come down and see you guys.

So I've worked it out with God. Like I kinda would do the motions. And so you're actually helping your kid build resilience, like one step at a time. And that's really how resilience is forged. It's you take a little bit of a step into some scary places. And then you do it with the encouragement and like the cheering of others,

but you do it on your own. Like they show you how to do it, but they don't do it for you. And that's really important in anxiety as well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

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I love that you gave so many practical tips and spiritual tips because God created us. He gave us these bodies. He made us in certain ways that the things that we do actually matter, the things we speak over, self-actually matter, and the things that we meditate on really, really matter. And we did all this, a lot of the same things, as practical things, and scripture on the wall. And also, I know one thing you wrote about that I think helped, helped say to you a lot, as well as we kind of went through, okay, here are the physical symptoms of an anxiety attack. And so, like, you know, you're not going crazy, because I think that is something people feel.

They think, oh, no, like, really is something wrong with my heart, or is something wrong with, is something really wrong with me. But when you kind of like, no, okay, this is what happens. Other people have experienced this too. I'm not crazy. There's not something that's wrong with me as far as like my health. Like I'm gonna actually have a heart attack but you kind of can acknowledge those things. I don't know that helps idea a lot

to be able to just kind of look through the symptoms and be like, check, check, check. Okay, that's what I'm, I can, I know what I'm going through. So no, I know how to deal with it. And there's practical ways you deal with it and spiritual ways you deal with it and contending with, you know, speaking to the father about it.

And I write in here in this chapter, the third rule is embrace adversity. It's where you don't turn from pain or fear, you turn toward it because we avoid fear it grows. So we actually have to come back toward it with these resources, these tools so that we actually conquer it that Christ in us or our fate. God is the one who helps us through these things. And when I started, the chapter is called Tree Anxiety as a Friend. Instead of this backyard bully that you keep running from and avoiding

instead going, you know what anxiety is going to do for you? It's going to teach you resilience. It's going to actually help you realize you're stronger than you realize right now. And when it returns, you're going to know what to do. And that was really helpful for me because I would, my anxiety rooted or my panic attacks rooted in claustrophobia. So I would always run from anything small

and a plane was one of those things that like you can't avoid. And I finally over time would would field the onset of it. And that's where I would kind of do the practice like Jesus has to submit to your piece. And I would just say calm because it's got a role. I can't leave. And so it would roll through my body. And I and I talk about it in the book that the average panic attacker like is extreme, it's different than anxiety attack, but it's more acute your body responds as if it being held at gunpoint. So it's more like quick, like the adrenaline, the heart rate escalating in the 160s, but it still will roll through your body on average five to eight minutes and then it's done And so if you can let your bodies adrenaline just go nuts while you're the whole time just saying a Bible verse or you're listening to worship

I Well, I wound up realizing oh wow this rolled through my body I didn't have to pop like a Zanax or anything. I just just kind of locked in on God and let it roll through and this one time a couple years ago, I was still stuck on that same plane on the tarmac for another hour and once it rolled through my body, I was perfectly fine. And so it almost just goes to show us that these acute attacks that we have, when we avoid and run from them, we never even get to face them head on and see how really threatening they are. And we're getting to rewire our brain and go, oh wow, this comes, I'm going to be okay. It's going to

do this. And then I'm going to still be standing on the other side. And man, if that's not a resilient soldier, I'm not sure what is. That's so good. I was thinking about that as you were talking earlier, your conversation was like, I would run, I would run, I would run, but it's whenever you actually turn and face, that's when you do conquer your fears because that's when you know that God is with you and you can actually face your fears. It's not about continually running, it's about actually turning to,

there was this picture that I have that it was during a difficult time in my life. Our show had just ended and we just had a lot going on within our family. I remember, so I had gone to Peru and we were at the top of Machu Picchu, which is and you come come down it, and it's like these massive steps. And we had to come down really fast because we were trying to catch our train. And at the bottom of it, I took a picture, we all were saying they're a picture, and I'm standing there, and my chest is out like so big and so strong. And I remember just looking at that picture and going like, oh, I actually really like hard

things. Like hard things are good for me. It's like whenever you accomplish something hard, we're kind of like wired for that. We're meant for that. Whenever you do it, there's a feeling of like, oh, I didn't think I could do that, but I did. And I feel really good about it,

even though my body might be hurting. And it was, I saw it, remember seeing that picture of myself and I was like, you know, I think I want to run a half marathon. I had never thought I wanted to do that before. But it was like this reminder that we're meant to do hard things, and we actually are stronger than we think

we are. And I always think about that. Just think about that picture whenever I'm going through something hard. I was like, oh, I actually can do something hard. And I can, and you think about childbirth. It's hard. It's hard. It's painful.

It's all those things. But you get this great reward in the end. And I think just got wired as that way. And so, you know, maybe there's something in your life that you can go back to a memory of like, oh, I made it through that. That was hard, but I still did it. And it was painful, but on the other side of it,

look what God did in my life and what God, how he reminded me that I'm meant for this. And, you know, I think sometimes I can help you through the next heart thing. One of the, one of the things that was fun in writing your book was to see the chapter, the chapter headings, you had a little, I'm quote, and one of them was Sadie was a quote from Sadie and it said, okay, what did her quote say? It said something about you don't have to, you get to decide what you think. Something about her mind. What was it to decide? I have to say what was her quote? Yeah. What you say to yourself. You get to decide what you said to yourself. I love that you had a quote from Sadie in there, and it was such a great quote because that is something

as a mom, I really did really try to teach our kids that what you say to yourself really matters and those things that you are speaking over yourself and over your life really matter. And one thing I remember when they were little, they would say, Sadie would say, John, like made me do it. I was like, no one makes you do anything.

You know, just trying to help them understand that they have a strength within themselves, their brains, their minds, their hearts really matter what they speak over themselves matter. So I love that you included that. Can you explain a little bit about that chapter about renewing your mind and how important that is? Yes, that preaching to yourself and retraining your brain, it always does happen by our perspective.

You know, our perspective shapes our attitudes and our attitudes shape our outcomes. And we always think that we're just subject to whatever comes at us and God is going, no, actually in this world you will have trouble, but take heart, I've overcome the world. So we're actually invited into this adventure that does require some level of adversity. And so we get to decide, you know, what I found for me was that adversity truly awakened what I was capable of.

And it also awakened what was worth fighting for. And so it's funny how like the mama bear will come out of me, but it's not just me. I see it in my kids where you're like, no, that's actually not okay. And you find kind of this, this truth that just rises to the surface and going, I was made for this.

I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna compromise here. I'm not gonna believe the lie that I'm always gonna be broken in such a way that's irreparable, but I'm going to instead choose to do agree with God and what he says about us, that I'm chosen and beloved and appointed and set apart, that I'm a new creation, that the old is done, and that I'm a friend of God and that he delights in me. And when we start to agree with those things, then we're not really even saying things that are original. We're just, we're saying to us what God has said to us.

So we're agreeing with him instead of agreeing with something that would try to threaten us, or steal, or kill, or destroy. And that, I realize it's like, oh, so I get to decide who I agree with. I get to decide what I believe. And I think the mental health crisis decide who I agree with. I get to decide what I believe. And I think the mental health crisis

that we're living in right now, mainly is based on the fact that we don't believe we have a choice to decide what we agree with. And we are hearing so much of a narrative that's going, will you agree with this narrative? That you're the most broken, lost, desperate generation. Well, statistics might be showing that, but it is only growing in that way because people keep hearing it and agreeing with it. And then you basically are speaking some

things into existence, you know. If you've decided you agree with it, then you're going to go along with that and then you're going to start repeating it. And then in your brain, that's a new reality. And so I find in my work, when I teach in different cities around mental health, people will come and go, I didn't consider that I could actually walk away from this just willfully and go, I don't want to be ruled by fear. And I'm actually going to do something about that. Instead of feeling powerless to it, instead of feeling powerless to it. So I think that's a really huge part of what we say to ourselves is what does God say? And how do we agree with that?

I think that's so important. A few years ago, Sadie went to a lot of college campuses and you know, talked to sorority girls and things like that. And She came back and she said, she asked the question, what's the number one problem that you see? Most of them said, mental illness, that's what we deal with. I thought it was interesting to me because I thought it was in a different way than how we experienced it when we were young. It was more of like, we identify with our mental illness.

We identify with our anxiety, with our depression, with our body image issues, rather than like, this is a struggle, but I'm going to get through it. It was more of like sitting in it and I thought, oh, like this is a shift. How do we change this generation's narrative? And it comes with also how we speak over ourselves that feeling of like, oh, I have anxiety. So I'm going to have that forever rather than like, yes, I, I'm experiencing anxiety and how do I overcome that? But it's like, oh, I'm an anxious person. That's just who I am. Yeah, the big piece I think about mental health diagnosis is it, you know, it's become a phenomenon

to have a label, right? The powerful label, and I think that can be helpful to define like what's coming against us and create an action plan to combat it. But the problem is what it's done is it's now gone from being a label to who we are. So it's created a sense of identity like I am this, I am that. And the reality is no, that actually has nothing to do with your identity. All it does is give a descriptor for what's coming against you. And what you're struck like what you're having to navigate. That'd be like saying, you know, I'm, I'm, I don't know. I'm always anxious or I'm always messy or I'm always overreacting. No, you just have had some of that in your life

and you are asking for support and help and you're getting healthy. And, or just saying like I'm, I've always gonna have like high blood pressure or I'm always going to have something wrong with, I don't even know, my autoimmune. Like in our bodies, if something's wrong, we don't go, I am this. We go, well then how do we fix this?

Or what is the strategy or the tactics to go, how do I get healthier? Our brains are the same way. It's like I have this racing thoughts. I have OCD. Well, it's not that I am this and now that's the new normal. It's like, this is what I've struggled with and I've found like, even with Kennedy, when she even just changed her diet and like, cut sugar for a season, like even the intrusive

thoughts stopped. Now, I'm not like coming on here as a doctor to tell everyone like this is the key, but it is possible and it is probable with enough research that I've done that what we're even putting in our bodies, all the toxins or chemicals that we can't pronounce on packaging, is also still our bodies working very hard to break that down and it just becomes another thing that we're having to deal with. It just creates more adversity maybe unnecessarily for our brains. So I'm all about science and faith colliding in the same conversation. I know God is the master scientist who made

our brains and he uses all means necessary for our healing. So I'm always about like yes go to the neuroscience, go to the neuroscience, go to the clinicians, get the help, but know that God is actually about that. And he also really wants to lean into him as the healer. You know, the one who ultimately is going before you, he's bringing people around, he is integral to your healing journey.

And what God says about you is you are never defined bringing people around, he is integral to your healing journey. And what God says about you is you are never defined by whatever broken label is attached to you. You're divine, you're defined by God as a beloved daughter or a son who he has entrusted birthright gifts. And he just, he smiles on you. And he's with you. And he grieves with you too.

It's not like he's like cavalier while you're walking through really hard things. He grieves in the things that you're struggling with too. But he wants to pick you up and hold you and be with you and guide you with the right counsel in your life through his word and with people helping you get well because he knows that you're not alone and this is not the end of your story. That's so good. Thank you, Rebecca. Before we go, tell us your website because you mentioned on your website, there's scriptures, which I think is so important. And I know there's a lot of other really great stuff. So tell us your website, your Instagram, all the things where people can find you.

Yes, absolutely. It's just my name, RebeccaLionz.com. And it's spelled R-E-B-E-K-A-H-L-Y-O-N-S.com. You can find everything there, and then my handles on Instagram, and Facebook, and Twitter, and all of the things are also at RebeccaLiance, because I did it long ago when you could still get your name. Perfect. Oh, thanks so much. A lovely friend. I love you. So, I'll talk into you. Always learn from you and just leave encouragement inspired by you. Thank you, friend. So, this is a joy. I'm so grateful for you. Tell Sadie, I love her and I'm so glad she's exactly where she's supposed to be right

now. I will. I will. Bye-bye. Take care.