WHOA That's Good Podcast - How to Go From Sexual Brokenness to Love, Joy & Trust

Episode Date: August 25, 2021

Jackie Hill Perry, best-selling author of "Gay Girl, Good God" and "Holier Than Thou," joins Sadie to share her journey from sexual brokeness, abuse, and same-sex attraction to meeting God, meeting her husband, and falling in love. Jackie drops some serious wisdom about being afraid to pray, the addictiveness of social media, what God's holiness really means, why we choose idols over God, celebrity Christianity, and how she intentionally keeps others from placing her on a pedestal. She also addresses how the church can do better on the topic of homosexuality and engage in honest, kind, and Spirit-led conversations.  - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What's up, whoa, that's good fan. Welcome back to the whoa, that's good podcast. Today is a very exciting because y'all, I'm actually really excited about this. I'm a huge fan. Actually, kind of fan girl whenever I first met you. I don't know if you remember, but I was like, I love you. But we have on the podcast, Jackie Hill of Harry. She is a author, a poet. If teacher, artist. I'm pretty sure you're also like a rapper. You're a mom and a wife. You're pregnant.

You do a lot of things, girl. So welcome to the podcast. Thanks for having me, Sadie. Yeah, no, I really am excited. I came over to you when I met you at Jen Johnson's. Well, I already met you at Passion. I guess seeing you from afar, but I was like, well, I already met you at passion. I guess seeing you from afar. I was like, hi I really want to preach like you you preach with so much truth

I'm a big fan and you're like thanks and I remember you told me you're like you do preach with truth and that really meant so much to me and Because you know, I think sometimes we see people that are different than us and we're like, oh, I want to be like you. And you just really set me in the way of like, hey, you're doing you and that's great. And that really meant a lot. So, so thank you. Yeah, man, I've watched you from afar. And I'm like, this girl, she's faithful, you know, like, and it costs a lot to be faithful. And so I just always value that when I come across it. Oh wow, thank you. Thank you so much. That's true.

Well, we're going to talk about a few things. Holy earth and dhal is your new book. Have it right here. It looks worn in from the way it's designed, but it's actually worn in. I just finished it and it is so, so good. We're also going to talk about your other book, Gay Girl, Good God and Your Life.

But first before we get to anything else, I have to ask you the question of the one that's good podcast. What is the best piece of advice that you've ever been given? Oh, I don't know. I guess what comes to mind is my pastor when I lived in Chicago. He was, he always used to counsel me about leadership. And I used to say Jackie, your job as a leader is to die first. And that's so contrary to what we think leadership is. Yeah. It's to be the loudest, to be the first in things. But he's like, no, the way Jesus led us is by dying.

So that's been a real strike to my pride a lot of times when I think about it. Well, that's so good. I remember, you know, being on go all the way to the top. She told me one time because she studied under Christine Kane and one time I was like, what's the best advice that you ever learned from Christine? And she was like, well, the first day, she said to me, she was like, my best advice to you is you have to die to yourself. And she was like, die to yourself, die to yourself, die to yourself.

And then she said, and if you think you're dead, you're probably not, because you're aware of the fact that you might be dead, which means that you're alive, so die. And I was like, that is so true. Die again. Die again, yep. So it's such great advice. Well, my followers and people are mostly in college So true. Diagon. Diagon, yep. So such great advice.

Well, my followers and people are mostly in college and love a good love story. And I think you impressed in story is so amazing. But I love how you say, like before I met Preston, I met God before I really married Preston, I married God. So can you kind of tell us your journey of meeting God before you met Preston and then fall in love with him. Yeah, I think what makes our story so unique is that both of us come from backgrounds with just some level of sexual brokenness.

Me dealing with a pornography use from the age of what, seven to nineteen, same with him, sexual abuse, him was just promiscuity as a means of, you know, attention and identity. And then I had same sex attractions, and just all the things. And then I came to faith when I was 19, because I, through the power of the Spirit, realized that God really was better than everything that I was leaving him for. Yeah. And so, when we met, I was a Christian at that point, maybe six months, and I was really

uninterested in relationships and definitely uninterested in relationships with men. So, we just kind of had this friendship. And it was like a legit friendship where I would give him advice about the relationships he was in or if I saw certain girls that I would like, yeah, I don't know if she's that holy, I'm gonna back up. And I was just that person. But on our separate sides,

we just started to get, I guess this attraction to each other that we didn't know what to do with. And so I prayed and I said, God, if it's your will for us to be friends, give me the self-control to treat him like a brother and not a crush. But if it's your will for us to be together, then put it on his heart to pursue me.

I didn't know that at the same time, Preston had been fasting for God to show him who his wife was. It's the same time that I'm praying. He's praying to us. So we just, we ended up having a conversation. And here we are, married seven years later with three kids and one on the way.

Come on, that is so cool. I love it. I love that y'all both intentionally sought out prayer. And you wrote about that in your book that, you know, you really ask God like, hey, this is not it and take it away And I think that a lot of people are scared to pray prayers like that when it comes to who they're going to be with Because they're scared that God will say no

And what if they want him to say yes, but I love how you were at the point in your life Or you were like if it's a no like I will obey and it was yes And so I think it's cool I will obey and it was a yes. And so I think it's pretty cool. God's know is a really wise know, especially when you're thinking about marrying somebody for the rest of your life. Yep.

That's like a legit, serious situation. Yeah. So I need to make sure that this is God's will. For real, that's so good. I love that. I was listening to, I was going way back I guess that before we had gone on I read both of your books and also listened to so many of your things on YouTube and I love your poetry It's so amazing and whenever you impression did the one on the fall it was so good

How did you even get into poetry in the first place? Yeah, it's honestly real random in the first place. Yeah, it's honestly real random. So when I became a Christian, I decided to go to this community college and I was just really bored. I'm studious, but I don't like school. Yeah, I get that. I'm the same way. I'll study all day long for a podcast, but when I was in school, I was struggling. Hey, did it. Hey, did it. So I'm a seminary now, but I realize it's like I'm studying when I want to study, I'm not studying, which I'll let tell them you to study. Yup. And so I was in the class, I was in this English class, I was just so, I was just so bored.

And I had this, this, this urge to write something deep in spiritual. And literally in my mind, I was like, okay, deep people write poems. So let me write a poem. It wasn't the thing. So I just I wrote a poem, I put it on Facebook, my pastor saw it. Then he wanted me to start doing poems at church. I had no idea that it would become what it's become become now, you know. And then eventually I got connected to a ministry in LA that wanted me to write a poem about my story and that poem was the poem that started my public ministry.

Wow, that's so cool. I love when you look back at the timeline of your life and you're like, I actually don't know how this happened other than God or even just a thought that was like deep people right poems. Like and then it led you to what you're doing now. It sounds stupid and random, but it's like no, that was Providence. Well, it's really cool because I read this book and it is very deep. It's like, I mean, you quote like all of these greats in the book and you're right there saying yeah, dead people, but you're alive and you're saying things with that much wisdom. And it's like so cool, but I think one thing that people think when they read books like this or people, they're like, oh, you must have been a Christian your whole life.

Like you know the word so much. You must have had parents support into you and with the word. And like when you read your story, you didn't really. And so how did you learn the word the way that you do and even learn to teach the word the way that you do? The discipleship. Truly. discipleship. Truly. When I was a Christian for maybe a year, I moved to LA and I moved in with, because I moved to LA to go to a particular church. And the head of the women's ministry is who I moved in with and she discipled me for two years. And it's a different kind of discipleship when you

live with the person. Yeah, that's true. Like she didn't have cable. All the only movies that she had had were like Christian movies or apologetic, like seminars. Wow. And then every single day she gave me assignments. And when she would come home from work, she was a single woman. So she had margin for all of that, right? She would come home from work and she would challenge me. And one of the first assignments she gave me is she said, I want you to go through the book of John

and each sentence I want you to write your observations. And it took six months. Wow. Right? And so I think from the beginning, yeah, from the beginning, it was like, oh, the Bible really does matter in my spiritual life. And so I think having that foundation has just carried me where I don't see the Bible as a bot I check off, I see it as a means to understand the person of God. It's so good. That's so good.

I love that. I love you even wrote a part in the book. How it's not just reading the word that makes you holy. And you even talk about how the Pharisees, like they read the word more than anyone and you would think that that would make them more holy, but in fact it didn't. Right. Like, so what is the difference in that? Like for you, like you read the word a lot, but you found the beauty of God as opposed to the Pharisees, you read the word a lot,

a lot, but didn't. What do you think like the differences between the two? You have to believe it. Yeah. Because that was the difference is that they consumed the Torah. It was a discipline. They knew it back and forth. Even demons, devils, they know scripture. Like Satan and Luke four, when he was tempting Jesus, he quoted a Psalm. The difference isn't their ability to ingest the passages, is that

they don't believe what they read. And I think that's our tension, is that we think quoting it and putting it as an Instagram caption is doing the work. But the work is saying, okay, God, this is what you said about yourself in your word. This is what you said about the world, this is what you said about my heart. Now give me the power to trust that this is true. And that's what changes our lives. When what we read becomes what we also believe. Yeah, that's good. Come on. Love it. So you actually just touched on social media. And I just wrote a book that's not out yet called, Who Are You Following?

And it's a lot about social media. but you started talking about social media in this as one of our idols. But I love how at the end of it, and it was so perfect in the book, because there's actually a page turn because I was like, yes, yes, yes. Then you hit me with like a woe, when you were like, it's actually just a cover up

that social media is your idol. We are actually our own idol. So unpack that a little bit, because that was really good. Yeah, so I think in a really philosophical way. I think social media has given us a way to experience God-likeness Meaning the fact that you have the access into the lives of people that you do not know and that you don't even have to ask for permission lives of people that you do not know and that you don't even have to ask for permission gives you a kind of sense of omniscience that I know more things that I would otherwise know

of social media or wouldn't otherwise know social media didn't exist. And then you're able to travel, you're able to be in and say these home, you're able to be in Africa, you're able to be at the MTV awards. And so it's an omnipresent kind of feeling. And I think that's the attraction. And it's not to say the social media is bad. Social media is very useful for the kingdom. But I think our addictions to it expose that there's some type of pleasure we get out of this,

especially when it comes to the amount of likes we get, or the follows, or the comments. There's dopamine being shot in our brain where it feels like a high because we're getting approval. And so I think at the end of the day, on the surface, it is social media. But I think at the root, the item is us is that we like to feel central.

We like to have power. We like to be praised. And that's why we want to shut down our social media as soon as we get six criticism. That's the truth. We can't handle it. That's the truth. Wow, that was so good. I was like, there's so many parts in the book that I literally wrote all caps, preach. I was like, and then there's one part I said, sheesh. I mean, it was getting me asses. It was all I'm getting saved again. It was awesome. One thing you do talk a lot about and I think both books and it's really cool because if you read Gay Girl Good God and then you read Holer than thou, it's really cool because

in Gay Girl Good God you talk so much about your story, your testimony, what you went through. And then this is almost like the answers that you found. It's like this is why I am the way that you found. It's like, this is why I am the way that I am because I've just behold the beauty of God. This is how you become new. But you talk a lot in both books about idols. Um, and it's so silly because when you write it, it's like, well, though, why would we choose a golden calf? Why would we choose something that we know is not right? But why do you, why do you think that we choose something that we know is not right. But why do you why do you think that we choose idols instead of God when it seems so obvious whenever you read the words? I think many reasons one is I think it's easier to trust in a creative thing than it is to trust

an invisible God. So if we take Exodus 32 for example, when they create the golden calf, what preceded them creating the golden calf is that they said, Hey, we don't know where Moses is. We don't know what's happened to him. So let's create a God that will go before us somehow and them not being able to see Moses, who was a representative of Yahweh for them in many ways. It made them feel as if, Okay, God isn't with us anymore. We can't see him We don't know where he is So so we need something tangible something we can see that we can put our trust in to lead us and guide us

And I think it's the same. It's easier to trust a man to make me whole Then it is to trust an invisible God to give me comfort. Like, because it feels weird. It's like, you're not tangible, but then you're telling me you're the source of all comfort. And so I have to trust that somehow, through some other means, you will comfort me. Yeah.

But I also think another reason is that our idols are convenient when God often isn't. Yeah. That's true. It's kind of like with witchcraft. Like witchcraft allows us to experience things that God may have said that he's going to give us, but we can get it quicker by evil means. And so it's like instead of waiting on God for marriage, we rather just be with the

boyfriend and have sex. I don't, that's not convenient for me to lay my body down as a living sacrifice holy and acceptable unto God. And so it all hinges on faith. Yep. At the end of the day, it is so much easier to trust in everybody else than it is to trust God. So good. And that's what, that's the root of our idolatry. Come on, that's right. I mean, you really just nailed it. It's so good. Whenever you were talking about your own struggle with homosexuality and just laying that down and everything,

I love how you said, actually, I listened to Gagor Gagotan audio books, which I highly recommend because you reading it is so powerful and it's very poetic. But whenever you said, Dices did not endure because he was strong, he endured because he loved God. I literally rewinded and made Christian come listen. I was like, this is so good. And I feel like that was almost like,

that was like almost so forward to this book. It was like that's what this is all about. What did, like what was that moment in your life when you realized that like it's not about like not doing this isn't this But it's actually about just like when I love God when I know that God is holy. That's what changes me I think maybe That's a great question. I think maybe the transition happened after I was in a really after I was in a really toxic church environment

for a couple of years when I was a new Christian and it was all about works. It was just, you have to make sure you evangelize every day, like every person you meet, you have to give them the gospel. If you don't give them the gospel, then you're fearful in your coward that means you're in standing, you need to repent. And that's kind of hard for somebody like me who's introverted, right?

And so I'm feeling like I'm being a coward when I'm really just being myself. Yeah. Like they didn't say, oh, maybe you're gifted to give the gospel through books or through music or through art. Like it's like, I have to be a street preacher. Or if you didn't read the Bible

for a certain amount of time or if you were on Facebook for too long, it was just works, works, works, works, works, works. Until I stumbled on a verse in Jude, it's a doxology where Jude says, now to him who was able to keep you from falling and to present you faultless and blameless before his glorious, glorious presence with great joy.

And that was the first time I saw in the scripture. I said, wait, wait, me being kept and me being presented blameless like is on God. It's not as if I'm a passive participant, right? But it's like all of the glory at the end of the day when I stand before God will be on God. Yeah. And I think that set me free to be like, oh man, I could just trust him and be with him

and he's going to finish the work in me that he started. I don't know. I guess that's where it started. That's really cool. I love that. You're reading, Jude, and I know that you've written a Bible study on that. That's just really cool in and of itself. But I think that just speaks to people about if you get in the Word of God, it's active

and alive. And when you read the word something so like a verse that may not have spoken to anyone else that day spoke to you, it's like God just enlighten your eyes to see it and change your life. It led you to where you are now. And so I think that's a really cool thing to know that, you know, they really is active and alive. You really can read, won't pick up your day and it can change your life. So I know that whenever I've written

books or whatever, done anything like the message really impacts my life. I had to impact my life in some way from me to want to write or even have the ability to write so many words. And of course the Holy Spirit doing a work in you and this book You really didn't talk a lot about yourself. You really just talked about God Which I think was really really cool because you're talking about the holiness of God Was that an intentional thing to not really put yourself in it and how it did it impact you along the way of writing it? Yeah, even in my preaching I I don't use illustrations

about me often or my family. And I don't think it's a problem to do it. I think it's a way of guarding myself. You know, from, I think when you're in a space, a Christian celebrity space especially, you are so easily praised that part of me, part of me has kind of become more intentional. How can I keep people from putting me on a pedestal

that I don't belong to stand on? Like I don't deserve that. And so part of it is just me guarding myself and guarding my audience, from being more impressed with me than they are God. Wow. That's cool. That's really true. And especially a book about holiness is just like, I want this book to last and be impactful

when Jackie is dead and gone, like the likes of C.S. Lewis or A.W. Tozer or just all the ancient voices, like, I don't know, they left us something that's beautiful because they left us more of God than themselves. Yeah, that's so good. Well, you did a great job doing that because this book definitely will live on. This is maybe a hard question and I wasn't really even thinking about asking this.

So you can like hard questions. Okay, good. Because I mean, you can always just say, I don't want to answer that and I'm like cool moving on But I feel like whenever I read gay girl good God it gave me like a lot of I don't know It just made me have more understanding From the homosexual like lifestyle and where you were coming from and what led you to even be in the relationships that you were in And you also talk about like the relationships that you were in. And you also talk about how Christians treated you,

how they saw you as maybe your sin instead of who you really were. In that time, even reflecting back and who you are now, what would you tell the church on how we can do better about that topic and treating people who are in a homosexual lifestyle? Because I feel like that's a really interesting topic do better about that topic and treating people who are in a homosexual lifestyle because I feel like that's a really interesting topic conversation and coming from you who's actually

walked through it, I'd just love to hear your perspective. It's so hard because the Christian church and I would be, I want to be specific in saying a lot of people who have been the most outlandish and outrageous and quite frankly sinful towards the LGBTQ community. I don't even think many of them are actually Christian, you know. I think they, they profess it, but they don't necessarily have the works that prove it. So, yeah. And we got wheat and tears in the church.

But I do think that Christians have not let the way in terms of kindness and empathy and understanding in this conversation. I think the hard part though is that even our definitions of kindness and compassion are becoming misconstrued where to tell the truth about Romans one or first Corinthians six is not looked at as compassionate anymore. So it's becoming hard to discern what kindness actually is. But I think my council will be one, we need the Holy Spirit, right? Because kindness is a fruit of the Spirit. Gentleness is a fruit of the Spirit. Self-control, meaning you don't got to say everything that comes to your mind is a fruit of the spirit. Gentleness is a fruit of the spirit. Self-control, meaning you don't gotta say everything

that comes to your mind is a fruit of the spirit. That's right. I think we do it so wrong so many times because we're doing this stuff in the flesh. That's right. And not in the spirit. I think another thing is information, like reading books, listening to people,

asking questions, what is, even when the trans conversation, if someone asks you, what does it mean to be a man? Do you know, can you answer that question? Apart from cultural stereotypes about what manhood is, will you say, oh, well, a man is to be, they ride trucks, really? That's what manhood is to you.

Is that what God was saying when he made Adam, that you're a man because you drive a truck? You can say, like, I don't think we're educated enough and so we're unable to even engage in these conversations in a way that's informative but also spirit lit and so I don't know I don't even know if that answer your question. It does and one thing that really stuck with me as you said I was taught more about sin than about joy like I was met. Yes. Now and was like yeah that's a real problem that's true and so I forgot I put that there yeah no you said so I'm telling you

I have like this is like the back of this book is notes that I took the my notes and my phone are full I didn't even know what to ask you today because I'm like I just this is just so good and I I just feel like you say so many things that people need to hear with truth and with love. And you actually talk about that a lot in your book, about love, and I love how you said, one thing that you said is how we make love, God and not God love, which God is love,

but we make love or God. I mean, you just had so much good stuff. And one thing that you talked about that I really want you to expand on more is, or even tell people about, is you talked about how we like to clean to the attribute of God that is love and not the other attributes of God.

And that was really true. And I think that that kind of plays a part in how we do things sometimes is like, if it's love, then it can't be you know offensive or whatever it is and so what do you think that lesson in of itself could teach people? You're really good at this. Super thoughtful questions. Yeah I was reading this book I don't even remember the title of it. It's cited in Holy It and Now but he was saying that we are prone to like

a theme, the attributes of God that we most relate to. So we don't relate to God's eternality, right? The fact that with him there is no beginning, there is no end. With us, there is a beginning. And so we don't relate to that. That's why we're not like, yeah, God is eternal. Well, like we just, we don't even tap through that on our arms or nothing.

And so when it comes to love, if we do hear that God is love, we don't allow God's nature to define love. We instead take our experiences of love and then project that onto how God should be. And that's a part of the problem, is that if God is love, that means that God also defines it. Not even necessarily in terms of what he said, but what he's done. How do we know what love is? The gospel. God loved us so much that he sent his son and whoever believes in him shall not perish. What greater love is it,

that a man laid down his life for his son, right? And so love is not this sentimental, so centered, arrogant, I can do whatever I want, kind of ethic. Love is completely servant-hearted underneath the Lordship of Christ. That's love. Come on. Oh my gosh. I'm so excited for people to listen to this. I really am. It's so good. What do you hope people take away when they read? Holar than thou? I mean, I think that there's so much, but if you could put it in a nutshell. Yeah, holiness is intimidating. Especially depending on how it's been presented to you. If holiness has always been, you know, God is holding, you ain't. So you're going to hell. Nobody wants to read books that sound like that.

Right. No. No. It's just not, I want to read the books of I love if that's the case. And so one, I want to widen our understanding of holiness, which is to say, man, if God is holy, that means he is always good. Yeah. If God is holy, that means he cannot sin. If God cannot sin, that means he cannot sin against you. If God cannot sin against you,

then that makes him the most trustworthy being there is. And I think when you frame it that way, then you see, oh, holiness is something worth worshipping about. Because imagine if God wasn't holy, what would he be like? Wow. He would be like the devil.

Wow, yeah. That would be a scary thing to have an eternal sovereign God that is satanic in his ways. That would be like the devil. Well, yeah, that would be a scary thing to have an eternal sovereign God that is satanic in his ways. That would be terrible. But having a, it would be terrible. It would be terrible. It would be hell. Yeah, yeah.

But in all actuality, we have a God that is just good all the time and all the time he's good. So that's what I want people to walk away with. It's just a bigger understanding of God that affects how they live their life. That's so great. I love it. You know, I'll be honest,

this book actually even intimidated me because holiness is intimidating. Like, just even the word, it seems like, I think what it seems like is maybe this other attribute to God, it seems like it's gonna go over your head. It's like, I don't really understand that completely. And when people explain it, sometimes it does go over your head. But you did it in such a beautiful way that's relatable, but also draws you deeper.

And I think people are going to be super, super impacted by that. And ultimately, I think the biggest thing in what you talk about and so much of both of your books is that if we just knew the character of God, if we just actually focus on the beauty of God and the glory of God and the goodness of God and just who God is. Then our life would really fall more into place. And if we, if we didn't, like we started to focus on that and not focus on what we can do, what we can't do, what we shouldn't do, what we should be, what we're not, all the different things.

And I love that quote. As I think of your book, we said, we don't need more books. It tell us what we shouldn't be doing. We need more books on the beauty of God. And I was like, come on. It's so good. That's it. That's it. more books tell us what we shouldn't be doing. We need more books on the beauty of God. And I was like, come on. So good. That's it. That's it. Right there. It's it. Well, I mean, I'm really good taught to you all day, but I guess we'll stop there because I fill it. People are already getting, so much truth spoken to them. And I hope that if anything, I mean, I

could quote your whole book, but I hope that I don't do that here. And people go actually buy wholelier than that. Go read Gagel or Good God, or listen to an audio because that was really awesome. And just dive into things that Jackie said because your ministry is very impactful. And you just, like you said, you don't point people to you,

you point people to God. And that is why lives are changed when they listen. So thank you for who you are and all that you do. And I can't even believe you're doing all this and you're pregnant. So hello, that you do. And I can't even believe you're doing all this and you're pregnant. So hello, that's awesome. You did it. I know.

You're all over here. I saw you the other day. I said she's going to amusement parks and all this stuff with new babies. Oh, yeah. You're a real one. Hey, that was a real one. I'm gonna tell you, I needed the spirit on that one.

That was crazy. Yeah, that's courageous. That was courageous for real. No, thank you, Jackie. You're awesome. Appreciate it. Thank courageous. That was courageous, Pearl. No, thank you, Jackie. You're awesome. Appreciate it. Thank you. It was good talk to you.

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