WHOA That's Good Podcast - How to Stop Perfectionism From Holding You Back

Episode Date: July 28, 2021

Sadie speaks with singer-songwriter Ryan O’Neal of Sleeping at Last about how having a child shifts your perspective, the dangers of perfectionism, and the ins and outs of the Enneagram. They also get into Ryan’s creative process, letting go, and how writing songs helps him work out questions about faith. John Luke joins the conversation to do a deep dive into all things Enneagram. Ryan has composed music for "The Twilight Saga" and many popular TV shows, and you can check out his work at sleepingatlast.com. - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What's up, well that's good fam. I am so excited. I'm always excited, especially for Wednesdays because I love getting to interview great people and today I'm going to interview someone that I'm actually personally a huge fan of and if you're not, you probably are, you just don't even know it. So this is Ryan O'Neill from Sleeping at last. He has an incredible podcast. He's an incredible podcast. He's had music that you've probably heard, whether it's on Grey's Anatomy, Twilight, the Ellen Show, like so many places that's everywhere. But he's just an incredible person. He's a husband and a father to two girls. And I'm excited to have them the show. So welcome, Ryan,

to the What's Good Podcast. Hi there. Thank you so much. There's a, I'm so excited to talk to you. Yes, we are so excited to say we cannot always talk as we, which is funny because people are like, who's the where, where's the we. And mostly it's like my husband or my team, but in this case, it's actually like everybody who listens to the podcast. I know what we excited to have you on.

Well, I have to ask you the hardest question ever. What is the best piece ever have I said you've ever been given? Oh gosh, okay, so I think the best piece of advice I've been given or the one that stood out in my mind as I was trying to figure out my answer for this question, was from Bob Goff, who I know is a mutual friend of ours. And right at the time we had our firstborn, so I have two daughters, Lily and Iris, Lily Six.

So about six years ago, I was in the, the kind of the haze of being a new dad and I was talking to him and was basically just saying, like I'm having a hard time like being present and just like, just being, you know, like I'm so tired and I'm so exhausted and he was like, what if you had a magnifying glass and you just continued to look for your daughter's fingerprints

everywhere that like every day. And so a couple weeks later, he sends me a magnifying glass. And so to me, what that means is just to notice the beauty of it of today and the beauty of getting to show the world to my little girl. And so I now have a little collection of magnifying glasses as reminders of that message. So I don't know if it's advice, but it's a perspective that helps me notice. That's so good.

Here you are right before we started. He's like, oh, this question's so intimidating, but I mean, that was so good. And if you have a collection, that seems to be a pretty significant advice to you, I love that. Absolutely. We just had our first daughter and our first six, six, six, so excited. Thank you. Where's the excited?

She's only two months, so she's still just a little, little boo. I know. That's so special. We are obsessed. So it's just cool to hear your perspective of, you know, your daughter is kind of changing your perspective on the daily basis because she's already changing ours. For sure. I am sure it's like a week to week thing. Like each week is so different from the last week and then like your perspective on every part

of life is shifting throughout their whole life and And that's so special, you know? It is so true. I know people have said to me, they're like, do you feel normal at my friends because they have had kids? Yeah, do you feel normal? I'm like, well, yeah, I feel like a normal person, but I feel like a better version of myself.

Like, things that I struggle with that were just like so insignificant, you know? I just feel like I've fallen off of me. Cause yeah, I'm like, wow, my life is so much bigger than myself and I always knew that, but having her as that reminder is amazing. Oh, that's so beautiful. So you are an artist, you write songs,

you sing them, I think you also play it many instruments. You have a very creative brain. And like I kind of mentioned, your music has been heard on Grace Anatomy, on the tri-lights saga, on all these really big things. And I know there's so many more us lodging in the Virgin 2, which my family, I really liked that show. So that was really cool. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. But what does that feel like for, you know, you to sit in your home and write a song, and then one day hear it on the big screen, because for me,

and this is such a smaller scale, but even just like, you write a book by yourself, and then all of a sudden, everybody's reading it. So what does that feel like for you to write something, and then all of a sudden it's just like out there? Yeah, first of all, writing a book sounds so huge to be like I like I can't imagine like with a song I'm writing, you know, maybe 20 lines and you know a book is full of 100 100 and something pages. But anyway, so I grew up just kind of in love with that art

form and obviously I felt deeply in love with music and so to be able to see those things kind of come together is really, really special. The first time I ever had a song in a TV show, it was this live action version of Tarzan this is a long time ago. And I don't know that it ran very long but it is, you know, I gathered my family up together, we all sat and tried to hear when the song was playing and it was so quiet in the background that I couldn't even tell it was my song.

And so from that moment on, it's been like this, even that was special, you know. Wow, that's so cool. So I really geek out whenever I have that privilege or opportunity, it's really special. That's amazing. Do you feel like, I know you love the movies and say like it's so cool for that? Do you feel like you write your songs for that or do you just do you have like a specific thing

that you write for? Is that really project different? Every so I started a while ago writing in theme which is kind of a creative hack because it basically for me it allows me to like, if I know in my Atlas project, I got a long form series called Atlas, that it's this very thematic music. And I have the song titles already written before any of the music comes at all. And so it's really fun to have a jumping off point. You know, like, I'm going to write a song called Sorrow. You know, like, it can't be super happy.

Like, there's some really like instantly, like, limiting in a creative way, in a really helpful creative way, it instantly gives me a framework to work within. And so I never really write, unless it's a, unless I have an opportunity to write specifically for a movie, like for Twilight, I actually wrote Turning Page, like, after reading the books and trying to submit it for the film. So I also knew that there was a very slim chance of me getting that song in the movie, so I wanted to make sure that if it didn't make it, it still was like a meaningful love song to me and my wife.

Yeah, it's so sweet. It wasn't fully Edward and Bella vampire song, but yeah, so on occasion, like if it's a for a specific project, I will write very much with film and TV in mind. But all of my normal songs that get used in film and TV were written just because I am basically, music's my therapy. It's like I process everything through it.

I, even like my girls growing up, I was just thinking about it. Like I have little snippets of their life kind of interwoven into each of the songs in the last six years. And so it's even helping me process time and memory. And so that's the coolest thing. So usually that's my jumping off point. That is the coolest thing ever.

It seems to be that way. It's like whenever you write for something stupid, it's good, but then the moments that come out of the really just raw, organic moments of life are the ones that end up touching people in the sweetest way. Yeah, yeah, that's totally true. Thank you. Yeah, it's totally true. Thank you. Yeah, it's a, I kind of balance the two where it's like a blank canvas for me is the scariest

thing in the world. Yeah. You're just like, hey, would you write a song? Any song, it doesn't matter what it's about, just write it. Like, that sounds so exciting. And then all of a sudden, my mind just kind of breaks. Oh, yeah, no, I get that. I lay out these like, thematic, like, all right, I'm going to write a song for the five senses. All right so that's you know touch taste.

I'm gonna write a song for each of the planets in our solar system. I'm it you know like that kind of stuff helps me like it just every all of those little details my research into each thing kind of feeds back into my creative process and that's really fun that way. I feel the exact same way when I have to do something, if I like, especially in writing, I don't know if you've ever watched SpongeBob, but there's this scene in SpongeBob,

where he's like literally up for hours, he has to write this paper and he's like so stressed because he doesn't know what to say. And you see him just like working away. And then finally you see what he wrote and it was the, and sometimes I feel like that. I'm like trying to get a star and I'm like, that literally is the entire writing process right there, right?

It's so true, it's so true. Well, you mentioned your atlas journey and that has been just such a cool thing to follow along in bits and pieces of it. Oh, thanks. One thing that I'm really inspired by you is how you take your time with a project. And I feel like nowadays people want to just get something out fast, you know? It's like, you know, as soon as we can get out,

we just put it out. And you've really taken your time, I think, to especially which we're gonna tell you about later at the in-eagram, like you put out one, and then you didn't really know when the next one was coming out for the listener. I like we were all refreshing, refreshing. And you know, that's really cool though,

because you took your time. What have you seen? How have you seen that benefit you and your projects taking time? And when do you know that it's ready? Because that would be hard. You could always work on something, but when do you just say, okay, it's good.

Like go. Yeah, oh goodness. I don't know if I ever really have that feeling of like, it a hundred percent done It's so abstract for me where it's almost like It's almost when things stop bothering me about the song It's kind of when I'm like all right. I there's nothing. I can be mad at right now You know, there's no there's no track that's sticking out and so I think that might be done

I don't have any more ideas to add to it I've said my you know, the message came across. And so it's never with like, it's done. And I go celebrate. I wish I had that, because that would be so much more fun. I've had a couple of friends like try to celebrate like the ends of, you know, actually when the Enneagram was done when I finished those nine songs.

And for me to, like, I knew in my mind that I should be celebrating this, but in my, it like I could, I could probably work on the same songs forever. Right. Yeah. I would, I would torture myself entirely by doing that. And I would live a very unhappy life if I let myself do that. But um, but I, yeah, so I do have that like perfectionistic idea in my head where it's like, it's never actually done, but I do have to let go of it at some point. And that letting go process is, it is, yeah, it's like this very

ephemeral, like, actually, I just finished a song for the, the third chapter of my Atlas series. And it's been a little while since I've worked on it because I took a little bit of time off. And even being in tune with what that feeling is is just out of whack. So it took me weeks of listening and just trying to like, I would show up to the studio and just sit with it on repeat

and just not knowing, I don't even know what I'm supposed to be doing. Am I supposed to be adding things? Am I supposed to be closing it out? I don't do it. So it's a funny process, but you asked more specifically about taking time with the songs. And it's similar to writing with a prompt or a creative theme and versus just being free with it. I find that there's an exact balance

that I have not figured out where I want to I want to make sure that I can take enough time to get it right but at the same time not too much time uh with a project or with a song uh to to start like letting in the doubt and the insecurities and letting all those questions kind of have a lot of voice so um that's been that's been tricky and I I think I actually kind of fumbled a little bit on this last song because I had too much time with it. It's the first song of a big project and I just was like nobody's waiting for it yet. I'm kind of, you know, I haven't released an announced or I haven't announced like the release date. And so that in my head just created like I could work on it for a couple years and I will get increasingly more unhappy if I do.

So yeah, that's a real... I think that's good advice for people though because I've seen that perfectionism kind of keep people from actually putting things out that either try to put on their heart, they've been working really hard on and it's like no, like put it out, that's gonna touch people but it's like oh but there's this and like nobody would notice the this. Like everybody would be inspired by the thing that you put out. But we get in our minds really. It's not good enough. It's not this.

It's not that whatever. But that's good advice. So like, you know, take your time with things like, you know, stew or what you have well, but then don't sit on too long that you start getting insecure. And you start writing a whole another story and then just ditch it and you're like, nobody ever sees it. Yeah. And then you can appreciate I actually I do feel that way even with releasing it like so not even just finishing it but actually making sure people get to hear it because if you hold something too long I found for my music like you you've kind of grown

a little bit in a year or in six months and so I really like the idea of as soon as I'm finished with something that it can be received pretty quickly after that and so I don't usually follow like the idea of, as soon as I'm finished with something that it can be received pretty quickly after that. And so I don't usually follow the traditional PR plan of prep for months and months and have a campaign going around it. I love the idea of as soon as it's out of the oven, it can be enjoyed. Yeah, that's awesome.

Hey, you need one real cookies. That's right, it's always better right better. That's right over the oven. That's awesome. I love that. I heard somebody say, I can't remember who it was, and it kind of haunted me for the last 10 years. But you get to a certain point in your creative process where you're spending 98% of your time

making it 2% better. Wow. And that's a dangerous place to be. And I feel like I'm there often where I'm like tweaking the EQ on a guitar or something, you use something that nobody will hear or care about. But something about it is bothering me or not sitting right and I'm spending all of my time trying to make it 2% better. So that's a wrestling that I can't totally, because part of me feels like, well, if you

can get the 2% better, then do whatever it takes to do that. And then the other part of me is like, that's not actually how creativity should work. You shouldn't be, we're not aiming for perfection, we're aiming for true communication of what we feel and think. And so, that's so true.

It's haunted me. So I will now let it haunt you. Oh yeah, no, now I'm like, OK, great. Thank you. It was actually so good, because I am finishing a book project right now. And it is that. Are you?

Yeah, it's like, why do I? Oh my gosh, it's a brand new mom, too. That's so much. Are you doing all right? It's been literally crazy. Thanks for asking. That's so hard. I'm almost done, which is so great.

But that is really good advice for me right now. And I have to remember too, it's like perfection isn't actually relatable, you know. So, yeah, it's not relatable and it's not even reasonable. No, it's really not. And so it's like when you get to a point where you're like, this is going to move people, this is going to change people, inspire people, then it's done. You know, it's time. Totally.

Totally. Totally. And I do feel like the feeling like you as an author, the feeling that like your feeling is about the book, I feel like influence how people receive it. So even though it might be on like a social media post, it might be on your podcast. However, but I do feel like letting it go at a time when you feel really at peace with it versus I mean mean at least I'm speaking for my experience if I let it go too late it like I'm kind of making excuses for it in my head like well that was a year ago I know I can do better now I would I would change this I would change that like there's there's some danger and holding on

yeah very true so I know your Christian you have faith and what ways has you know your music even brought you closer to God Do you feel like it's strengthened your faith? Do you feel like it's been there at times for you when your faith? You know you've had doubts or how is that kind of played a role in that? Yeah, it's a it's a place for me to process my faith so all of my questions I think somehow I don't I don't ever intend for it to. And I've had this rule actually since I was, I think I was like 15 years old, just starting out writing songs. And for some reason, the idea of like,

oh, what kind of music am I gonna write? And how does my experience of my faith, like what is that, what role does that play in my music? And the rule was basically, I will never force my faith into my music and I'll never force it out. And so that has naturally created this place for me to process and kind of work out my questions. And so I've been, you can kind of probably trace it back.

My, my, my rises, my rising and falling in my faith throughout my music. And so in that way, like it, it helps me, it helps me to stay in tune with it. And that's like, it's actually, it's an area that I really love writing about and writing, it gives me a place to put those questions out into the world. That's very cool, I love it. You're so creative.

It's like, I wanna think like that like I want to like Process things like that, but you welcome us into that processing. You know, I followed the end of your Grand one so closely and it's just really cool because you don't just put it out You've explained why and the why I love the why because I'm such a big like I want to hear the story behind it You know, that's the best piece of advice you've ever been given Because I'm like you give advice you do all this stuff like who told you something that inspired you and it gives a glimpse of your story And so to hear the background was super super cool for all those you were so intentional I think that's the word for your like careers like when from an outsider's like intentionality and not a lot of Thank you. That's so nice. Thank you. That your like careers, like, from an outsider's like, intentionality and not a lot of things.

That's so nice, thank you. That's so, it's awesome. How do you feel about it? Well, I want to do something fun. I want to have a, anyagram combo if you're down for it. Oh, I love it. I love it.

I always invite my anyagram geek into the picture and that is my brother, John Luke. That's great. For those people who don't know what the end of gram is and you're about to hear us say six and seven and nine and one and all the different numbers. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Can you give people a little snapshot of what the end of gram is and why why you like it? Why you got into it? Yeah, I'll try it. So the end of gram is made up of nine distinct and kind of uniquely beautiful types of personality. And the model assumes that each type has sort of a core wound, something that could be

perceived or something that actually happened in childhood. And it really shapes your struggles and your successes throughout your whole life. And so it's one through nine. And each one has a deep need. And it's just a really helpful tool to understand not only yourself but each other and how certain things are just so much more important and so much more painful for each type.

And understanding that, just knowing that there's this kind of map out there, it makes conversation, it makes relationships, it makes all of those things enriched with empathy in a way that no other really tool that I've ever come across. So for me, the Enneagram has been this, exactly that, a tool for empathy and understanding myself better,

but also understanding how to love the people that I love better. That was very good. That was very good. That was very good. I don't actually know if that is an overview or if that's just. That's your perspective. I think that's a very great overview.

So I am a six. So if you go to me and unheld. You were six, oh my gosh, okay. Yeah, so when you were talking about the like, and your head like did I open the door right, I'm like, that is so mean. Like I'll say like one thing. I'm like, I say that wrong. Should I have done that? And Christians like, what are you talking about? Like you I open the door right and like that is so mean like I'll say like one thing I'm like, I say that wrong. Should I've done that and Christians like what are you talking about like you literally open the door?

Yeah, what your person opening the door I relate to that hardcore and it is I feel like I saw somebody sent me I'm sure some sort of meme That was basically like if you want to know what my whole life feels like, it's just rehearsing normal everyday activities and how they went and rating them, you know, went through Ted. That's totally, that's my mind. Yeah. So true.

I tried to get out of that, but that is real. That's the real. Okay. So before we start, we had to share with everyone what any of your grime numbers we are. So Ryan, what are you? I can't believe it would. I didn't have to take nine. And I say identify. I did to share with everyone which what any of your grime numbers we are. So, Ryan, what are you? I can't believe it was way. I didn't have to type nine.

And I say identify, I'm 100% in nine. You have a, do you wing one way or another? I didn't think I did, but I do feel like I've got a lot more one than I realized. And I think a lot of what we talked about already, even the creative process, that's where it comes out. And actually, I didn't also realize until I wrote my song for the type eight,

I was like, oh, I don't have any fight in me. I've got no strength in that way that an eight does. And writing that song and kind of like thinking through my life even as a songwriter, I do, there's a stubborn, not to say that eights say that aids are stubborn, but there is a, there is a confidence in some of my creative process in moments where I'm like, oh, that must be my eight wing. Yeah, that's awesome.

The goodness, it showed up because you know. Like it's there, right? Yeah, it's there, but it is, I would say it's a very mild eight wing and a pretty, a more prominent one wing than I realized. Yeah, that makes sense. And how about you guys? I get a jump. So you're I realized. Yeah, that makes sense. And how about you guys? I got a jump.

So you're type six? Okay, yes. Well, I'm a six strong wing seven for sure. Everybody's like, you're in under six years seven, but like if you, like I know myself and like whenever I listen to the podcast, whenever I read the books, it's like no doubt. I just struggle more with the things

that the six struggle is with, but I have more of a seven personality. I feel like, yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, and this is funny, because also I went back and forth, which I don't know, did you test a nine when you took the test? It's funny, I think I did, and then through the help of my friend Chris,

who wrote the book The Sacred Enigrame, he recommended, he's like, you know, the tests are really helpful to kind of narrow things down to like, you know, a third of the enneagram that you might, you know, relate to, but really you just gotta dive in deep and read more about it. And so I don't think there was any question

that I was in nine until writing the songs. Yeah. Each of the enneagram songs, I started with one and so I started realizing that like I was Reading and having conversations so so intently about each type that there is a part where I'm like Maybe I'm a one yeah, too That is so funny so like the entire time which is the most nine thing ever I'm just like merging into every type as like you know

Well, that was one of my questions I was gonna ask is if you went on an any group journey because I'm just like merging into every type as like, you know, well, that was one of my questions. I was going to ask is if you went on an any group journey because I'm a six wing seven, but I go back and forth because I tested a seven twice. But when I read it all, I'm like, gosh, like there's no, like sevens don't think this much because this guy, he is a no thinking whatsoever. Like strong seven. No, thinking whatsoever. Like strong seven. That's great. No. Yeah, I'm zero. Zero, zero.

No, think it's a three thought. Is that what you was saying? So you're a seven? You're a seven? Definitely 100%. Seven. Like, never guess that's great. No doubt in my mind.

Whenever, like, I took the test, I always got seven, and I was like, I don't know. And then I read, you know, I would read this question like, this is exactly, exactly. Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. I've sent this before and it sounds like I'm just saying it,

but if I could transform myself into a type, it would be a seven. I know, right? It is a more efficient way to be. Like you prioritize, like, sure, if you're, if the, if pain is the thing you're avoiding, if that's the, if that's the kind of the crutch of the, the seven, that's a, that's not a bad thing to avoid. That's right. That's right.

Right. Like the need for the, the need for the nine is to have just, like it literally, I think Father Richard Roy says the, the need for the nine is to just avoid. It's not anything. It's not that, it's just avoid at all. Yeah. And so to avoid. Is that anything? Everything. Just avoid it all. Yeah.

And so do you avoid pain? That seems pretty like pretty efficient. And the rest of the time, you're just having a great, a great time, you know? That's very reasonable. That's what everyone says about the seven is like the seven is like everyone wants to be the seven. And that I had Richard Worsh, but he said it perfectly.

He was like a seven will never turn down a cookie. And I was like, that's me. And I'm like, everyone wants to be a seven. See that one, really? And he got some seven in me too, then. Because I won't turn down. But everyone wants to be a seven because he rides so high and then you crash.

And that's the thing about the sevens. So we got high highs and low lows. Not raised these the world lows. Disney World is that way. High highs and low lows. So every time we go there with like any sort of other family We're like just so you know like the highs are gonna be amazing. The lows are gonna be pretty rough Are you a big world is a seven? It's a seven place, right? Are you a big Disney world person?

I am more than I probably should even admit. Yeah, I like I grew up going pretty frequently and now with kids, it really is like seeing everything from a new perspective and I just love it. So it's like, I joke around that I'm going through my midlife crisis by my deep love of Disney right now. That's awesome. Well, you're really gonna think this is cool. I have to share this with you.

So my grandparents, it's their 50th wedding anniversary this year and 50 years ago They went to Disney World on their anniversary. It was the year that it opened So this year is the 50th so all of our families going to Disney World for their 50th and Disney's 50th I'm sure it's pretty cool Right, that they would nerd right know that that's amazing that they went you know that when they get married That's just so cool. How cool is that?

50 years ago when it first opened and now we're going back with the years later, it's pretty awesome. Oh my gosh. They have been back several times in the 50 years. Yes, they've been back. That must be amazing to actually have seen the developments in that. They grow. I know, right?

Yeah, you'll have to talk to them. You would love it. I would love it. Well, that is so cool. So I was going to ask you. What was I going to ask you? Wait, I have love it. Well, that is so cool. So I was gonna ask you, what was I gonna ask you? Wait, I have a question. Can I ask you a question?

Okay, so first I wanna say with Atlas and the Enigrame, I was like so worried when the numbers were coming out waiting for the seven, because I feel like a lot of people don't really understand like what a seven is, and they just see like happy joy, whatever. And I thought you hit it perfectly on like the hopeful optimism but also like the sadness mixed in but then the like the joy that it brings.

I just I felt like that is just so me and so what a seven is. That means seriously, that means so much to me to hear that because I was terrified. Like I mean each of the songs but like, I think I realized at the very start of the project that I don't know what I bid off. Like this is ridiculous,

because at first I just sounded like really fun creatively. Like, oh, I'm gonna write songs about these interesting, you know, versions of being a person. That's great, that'll be super fun. And then realizing how sensitive that is and how unfairly a lot of the anyagram types are represented, the eights and sevens, I would say more specifically and sixes too, actually. I was going to say, actually,

I might even make put them right at the top of being under underappreciated in all of the writing of the anygram. I don't know if you felt that way, but. Oh, for sure. It was super helpful whenever I listened to it, which honestly, it was just really beautiful because whenever my friend group was listening to it all together and everyone in my office that I used to live in Nashville and worked in an office there and we were all listening to

them together and like we knew which one we were by which one we cried the most to like it's like that's your number but it was so empathetic and it was it was funny because I remember when each song came out it was like that person was It was so stupid. It was so stupid. It was so stupid. It was so stupid. It was so stupid. It was so stupid. It was so stupid. It was so stupid. It was so stupid. It was so stupid.

It was so stupid. It was so stupid. It was so stupid. It was so stupid. It was so stupid. It was so stupid. It was so stupid. It was so stupid.

It was so stupid. It was so stupid. It was so stupid. It was so stupid. It was so stupid. It was so stupid. It was so stupid. It was so stupid. It was so stupid. It was so stupid. It was so stupid. and overthink everything and like, yeah, but that's the net, that's not the thing that we're like super proud of, you know?

And I feel like- No, that's like, it's really pressing into like the wound of the type by people continuing to like explain sixes that way, you know? And I feel like there's other types like sevens where it's like, oh, they're so fun. And like they're known for like a good thing, but then it's also like they wanna be known

for the hard thing, but the six is like, I don't wanna just be known for the hard thing, but the six is like, I don't want to just be known for the hard thing. But whenever you, when you talked about it being like, I'm believing, I choose to believe that I'm a like a sanctuary. Like I, with the reason why, like I fear is out of wanting to protect. Like whenever I think about like all the worst case scenarios, I'm trying to protect everyone around us. Like whenever we were going up, this is a prime example of me being sick. So he had asthma. So he needed to care and inhaler.

Well, he did not, yeah, he still has asthma. He lived with an inhaler. So I cared and inhaler everywhere with me because I was like, it's something happens to him. Like, and I'm thinking of the worst case scenario. I would carry like, thin a drill, even though I didn't have literature reactions, just in case somebody had no literature reactions. I would

like learn all about what do you do in a tornado? What do you do if this happens? Because like I wanted to be able to protect, but most people, oh you're just, you think about the worst case scenario, you're afraid I'm like, well yes I do have fear with that, but it's out of a motive of like, I want security. I want my people to be in a place of security and so you capture that so great it is a form of love but oh my gosh like even the opening lines whenever of the sixth song we talked about I had the most vivid dream last night I have the craziest dreams when you talked about how I was on the way up to heaven but I can only look down I was like

oh my gosh like I'm telling you your music I am geeking out right now because it really meant a lot like your podcast about getting to know a lot You talked about being like super afraid to do it Do you feel like you being a nine and what ways did it help you do it? And what ways did it kind of hurtful you in doing it? Yeah, so the ways that it helped was that I genuinely, I want to make sense and make, kind of make peace with the entire Enneagram.

So I was going through not as a way, like that was something I learned pretty quickly that, oh, this project doesn't work if I'm just writing songs like an ode to, you know, like the interesting sevens do this and eights do that and fives do this. So I really wanted to like, what does it feel like to be a type one? What does it feel like to be a type three?

So that was like heaps and heaps of conversations. And there was a point with writing each song that I felt like my heart kind of broke for that type. It was like understanding the wound or understanding the kind of the baggage or the heaviness that comes with each version of being a person. And that's when I knew that I had something to say about it. And I felt like I had the,

because like I said, I was, and this is probably part of my nineness as well, but once I realized that people were looking forward to hearing their type song, to me, I was like, oh no, that's not what I wanted it to shoot. I'm just trying to write songs. Like I did for my song Saturn, about the planet. You know what I'm just writing about things, but like I did for my song Saturn like about the planet you know like I'm just I'm just writing about things

But that was an invitation for me to like to really Learn about the people that I know and love in my life in a way that is and As a little bit of a side note um The any gram for me is like that I think the thing that I love the most about it is that it is a shorthand to get people to go deep quick Like I have a few friends that I've been friends with for like 25 years and we talk about all sorts of things, but never to the depth that I learned about them and like just asking them questions about being a type 5 or being a type 2 or whatever it was.

And so that in that sense, it was just a huge gift. Like I feel like the ending game is such a beautiful shorthand for going deeper quicker. And, but yeah, so the ways that being a nine helped, I think is because I came at it, I wasn't trying to solve any problems. I was just trying to honor and appreciate each person, which I think comes maybe from that piece making perspective. The negatives is that I genuinely,

at multiple points thought I was each of those types and my wife was even being like you're changing a little bit as you're writing these songs. I was definitely like mirroring and kind of merging into each thing that I was going deep into. That's kind of also when I knew I'm like I need to move on to the next one. Yes, that's cool. What do you feel like the IneGrim in doing this project, you know, working with each different type so closely, because you had some significant things in each song from that type or sounds or whatever it was. What did it teach you about like humanity as a whole? Do you feel like you stepped away and you thought more about the way that people are? I definitely did. I like a thing that I and this has actually been learning that I see

in faith and I see in like I've been I've been kind of going deep into a thing called spiral dynamics a little bit lately just as a I just geek out with this stuff. And really, it does seem like the best of people, what it points to, and the anygram included, is that we are at our best when we're letting go. And the anygram, every single type, if you go through one through nine, that is really the answer. That's the solution. Like, the eights want control, which is why they're guarded. And so letting go is this beautiful vulnerability for the eight.

The six want control for the one security, they want safety, and the answer is Letting Go in honoring those feelings. And so I think I came away from that project, including writing my nine song, which was by far the trickiest for me. I like totally the entire time was like, oh, the nine song will be easy, because it'll just be like, any song that I write, because I'm a nine. I've been writing nine songs since I was 15, isn't it?

And in order to do the same, to honor other type nines in the same way that I tried to for one through eight, I needed to dig a lot deeper into my own garbage. Right. Then I wanted to. That was hard. Yes, you're like, I don't want to put that out. There was not fun. Yeah. Right. Then I wanted to. That was hard. Yes, you're like, I don't want to put that out. Yeah. Wow. And what I realized through that was the same thing. It's like, oh, my the best version of myself is a form of letting go. And the best version

of every any gram type is a form of letting go. Spiral dynamics leads to letting go. Like it's, and I think faith is that way too. It's a it best, it is a trust and it's a letting go. It's very true. Wow, that's such a good advice in and of itself. You know, because I think we can get so many times to get so complex in our own number. I will not understand, it's different, you know, but the core, we are all human and we do all face

the same things and life similar things in life, you know? and to know that there are things and I think the Bible is cool like it's cool with the Bible because it's like this is one message for all people, you know, and it's just very cool that the one message who genuinely can touch all people with love and with joy and with peace and with all these things and so,, yes, the engram is divided into numbers, but that doesn't mean that we're all not so human. And that, a collective letting go is the greatest thing for us, you know? It totally is. It totally is. So that's very important. Yeah, I was also like, the thing that I really loved about writing those songs and just learning because I studied with Richard Roe for a couple, I went to a retreat and I got to like

hear him teach on the enogram for quite a bit. And that was hugely impactful. This was like a year or two before writing the songs in preparation for it. And so all the writing, it just, I think it ended up making everyone feel so much less different in my mind, like their perspective made more sense. You know, like it's, I came away from it kind of feeling like, oh, yeah, like that makes total sense why that childhood friend was doing what they were doing. It doesn't excuse any hurts or anything like that,

but it provides a context that's like, oh yeah, that's like because that, like even like type ones, like knowing that the inner critic or inner criticism is so strong for them and that's why maybe they can show a little bit of an edge themselves. Knowing that is a huge. It hurts my feelings last when someone's mean to me.

Yes. Now my husband is in one and it was funny because he was talking about any of her journey. He went from thinking we thought he was a two because talk about any of her dream journey, okay? He was over there. He went from like thinking he was, we thought he was a two, because he definitely has two, and he's very helpful, very servant-hearted, so kind. Well, he, then we were like, I don't know, you're kind of like a strong personality for a two, and then he's like, maybe, maybe I'm an eight,

which then the two go to the next, we're like, are you an healthy one? That was just funny. And he's like, maybe an eight's them, we thought he was an eight, and then, two go to your next really are you unhealthy but it was just funny. It was like maybe it is then we thought he was an eight and then what we never even read or listen to one I didn't even really know that many ones and it's funny how your circle you sometimes are just one or a couple different types and generally no that many ones close to me and so I didn't really read about it and when we read it it, we were like, oh my gosh, it was so true. And our critic, it really is a thing.

And just like we all have our things. And so knowing that that was so helpful, do you feel like the underground was really helped you in your marriage? Cause I feel like it totally has a Jumley Pro. Like it's insane. Oh my gosh, yeah. Have you both felt that way?

Yeah, like honestly for me, it was, so I had heard about the Enigram or had learned a little bit about it through our friend Chris, that this was maybe, this is maybe seven years, six years ahead of me writing these songs and even thinking that I would wanna do that.

And that was so skeptical. I just thought, like, Oh, great, another way to reduce the human experience into bite-sized pieces. That's how is that helpful? How is that helpful? And the thing that kind of pulled me into it was the idea that the anygram is actually not very fun.

Like people can make it fun, and there's like exciting elements to it, and it's fun to kind of poke fun at each other. But really, it starts like you know your type based on how hurtful that description is. That's the story. Like the thing that makes you cry is the thing that like this. So it's not, and that gave it a little bit more credibility.

And then before I knew it, like the language that my wife and I shared her name's Kate, and it has been this huge. So she's a type three and I'm a type nine. And so an understanding that like in an in in lesser healthy moments for her, she actually kind of comes to the nine. And so that's not great. I think everybody in marriage is kind of like wired to like you should be like a little bit more like me. Maybe that would be good. And understanding that no, that's actually doesn't that's not good. Don't don't be more like me.'s, let's go the other way. So when she feels like

indecisive or, yeah, mostly it's indecision, I kind of know where we're at. And that's really, it's just helpful, again, as a shorthand to, we have, we have found it to be a really beautiful tool in our marriage for seven, eight years. We've been married for 11 years, but that's awesome. Really worth the end of the game. Yeah. It's such a good tool. I love how you said that because that is how I knew it wasn't a seven because when I read it, I was like, yeah, that's awesome.

That's so good. Yeah. And then I read this joke, so I was like, that's me, you know, because I'm really not scared of pain. I don't, I enjoy hard conversations because I'm like, they make you better. Like, that is not a thing for me. So that's when I'm like, sevens out. That's not a thing.

That's it. But yes, the Inneagram has certainly helped. And just not, I mean, not that we just got married, not even two years ago, but it's just been such a good, like, strength for us. Because it helps us understand each other and have compassion and empathy for moments that we don't understand each other.

And you're like, wait, what? But then you're like, okay, we just think differently. We're coming at different values. Right, that's a different value system, right? Like the thing that each of us are trying to, you know, emphasize or avoid, they're very different. And I think it's easy to just assume everybody thinks in a similar way.

Parenting too is a huge, I know, like we definitely believe you're not supposed to type your children, but just knowing in the backdrop, our little girl is six and four. And we will never, I mean, we're not gonna share with them that we think that they are the types that they are.

Sorry, I said six and four as in their ages. Hey, yeah, there is six and four Sorry, I said six and four as in their ages. Yeah, there was six and a four. There was some four years old. Numbers can be more things than the Enneagram. And, but it helps us to, like, even if we have a little bit of a hunch of what our daughters are, like it helps us kind of make sure that we're not parenting against that grain, you know, like we're trying

to just pivot a little bit and that it's helped us in kates and my conversations about parenting as we go along. But that's awesome. That's good advice, Josh. Charlie, did you hear when you were, when you realized that you landed on the seven, was it, like I said, back up a little further,

did you have like a lack of interest in the anyagram at first in general? Um, not really. Because I think it's, no, that's good. Then you must be healthy. Because usually sevens are like, no thanks. Like cool. That was kind of your, your pain tool.

That, that was kind of me. And that is true about sevens, but also it was like kind of getting popular at that time. And that's a big seven thing. I'm like, oh, this is in. I mean, let's learn about it. Tell me more. Tell me more. So it was totally that.

And whenever it really was with me and Mary Kate and my wife, when we started reading it together, that's when we really said our number. She's a two. And it was early on when we were kind of reading about this and hearing about this. And we had a couple living with us at the time who was big into it and so they were talking through it with us. And we read this description of like a two in a seven.

And I mean, it was like they were in our house. Like exactly. It was just like argument about how a two's and seven see doing the dishes and about like two's feeling like it should be balanced. If you do few do if you cook you should like the other person should do dishes and me as a seven thinking if you cook you should also do dishes because like you're the one making the mess is this different value system. Yeah, and we were like we were both coming at it and like having this major argument for

like a year in our marriage about doing the dishes and we read this and we were like, we were both coming at it and like having this major argument for like a year and our marriage about doing the dishes. And we read this and we're like, this is it. And when you say the Indie Graham is a shortcut, that it gave us the language to actually solve the problem because we were like, okay, you're two, here's how you're coming, here's what you're thinking, I'm a seven,

here's my own thinking. You know? Exactly. It like gives you, you know what, what, what, you know what medicine you need for it. Exactly. You understand. You're like, I'm hurting.

I don't know what to do about that, as opposed to the Instagram. I'm sort of like, oh, you might be hurting because of this. And I know exactly how to help with that. So, Trudon, you pretty much introduced our whole family because we were on tour whenever it was kind of blowing up, I guess, the integrus's been think for a while but it was really popular at least in our area at the time and John Luke, K-1's who are and y'all had the book like the wisdom of the beginning of your grand book or whatever and don't like literally draw on I'll try to guess when I remember he drew out like the triangle and

like it's like so if you were this you could listen to him like he literally taught a class like on tour and we had so much fun like you said it's like, so if you were this, you could listen to this and help. Like, he literally taught a class, like, on tour. And we had so much fun. Like, like you said, it's not fun, but you can make it fun by just getting to know each other. Oh, totally. And there are like, hard moments and like, awkward moments, but they're also exciting moment and funny.

Like, that's totally you, like that whole thing. So it was fun. Well, I'll just wrap it up with a huge thank you because this has been so fun. First of all, you're so creative and talented and I'm thankful that you share all that with the world. Thank you for not sitting on it too long and letting this, you know, get the cookies all their hot. Seriously, everything that you put out is incredible. And I know you're still on the journey of your atlas. What are you on right now?

What are you putting out right now? So it is, it's going to start, I think, in September is the official start month, and it will be atlas three. So it's a trilogy. So basically, Atlas started with Atlas one, and it was songs based on like the origins of all things. So I did songs for the concept of darkness kind of before everything, and then I did songs based on light, which is the beginning of everything. And then I went through the planets and kind of got

closer and closer to earth. And then Atlas 2 is all about involuntary human development. And those songs finished up with the NEGRAM, which I like to think of as more involuntary. I do think that the NEGRAM, I like to believe that it's hardwired into us, but anyway, the themes that I explore in Atlas 2 are based on involuntary human development, so it's our senses, it's our basic emotions, it's the things that we are born into without much say, and then what I'm currently working on at Atlas 3 is voluntary human development, so it's everything that we do with what we're given. It's all the things that we can do with the gifts and the tools that we have in front of us. So I will

do a song for each of the seven definitions of love, which I'm really excited about in Atlas 3. And so I've been kind of working through that. But it's a trilogy. And I do this because I nerd out on all the themes. And I like, it's like a giant concept album over 70 something songs but really it's just songs. It's just songs out there. No it is not just songs that's incredible. I can't wait. Did you say it comes out in September? Yeah it starts in September so the first song which is called Overcher 3 Slash Awakens which is a really catchy title. Nobody will remember it and it's yeah. awesome. Hey, we'll remember it. It's gonna be awesome. Well, we're so excited. Thank you again for all that and just geeking out

with us about the EnuCrew. You are an incredible person and your marriage is an inspiration with the things that you shared and that your father met and all the things. So thank you for being on the WoWS good podcast. That's so touching. Thank you so much guys. Seriously, it was so fun to talk as a highlight of my week. you