WHOA That's Good Podcast - How to Survive Unthinkable Heartbreak, Loss & Tragedy | Sadie Robertson Huff & Mattie Jackson Selecman

Episode Date: June 8, 2022

Author Mattie Jackson Selecman joins Sadie to talk about the tragic death of her husband less than a year after their wedding. Mattie speaks with raw honesty about allowing herself to experience grief and how to love someone well through tragedy. She also offers heartfelt encouragement about learning to hold on to hope and how questioning God in hard times can truly deepen your faith. When you feel like God is silent, keep asking questions, and allow him full access to your heart. “Lemons on Friday: Trusting God Through My Greatest Heartbreak” is available now. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What's up, Woo, that's good fam. Welcome back to another Woo, that's good podcast. Y'all today I am so excited for this conversation. We're going to have it before I get to that. I just want to remind you guys that Elisister Conference is right around the corner. August 19th and 20th at the end of the summer. Go ahead and make your summer plans to be here in Monroe, Louisiana. Come, hang out with us. We're gonna worship. We're gonna talk about Jesus. Wow, would you not get here?

Go get your tickets day at elocisterconference.com. Now without further ado, I'm so excited for this guest. She wrote the book called Limmons on Friday and y'all, this story is just so profound. Her name is Maddie Jackson Selecman. She is an incredible woman and she has a story to tell. She's the daughter of Alan Jackson. Many of you might know.

And here are some of the things her book talks about. How did I get here? Well, this always her, who am I now and how do I move forward? I know many of you are probably asking some similar questions. And so let's have a conversation with Maddie and I just so hope that this speaks to you right where you're at, or maybe it's what a friend needs. So send it to your friends without further ado. Welcome to the podcast, Maddie.

Hey, thank you for having me. I just, I wanna say I appreciate what you do and the way you use your voice tremendously. So it's, I'm excited to get to talk with you. Oh, thank you so much. Hey, same to you. Just even preparing for this podcast, diving into your story, and not just your book, which was incredible, but also watching YouTube videos and other interviews you've done.

Your faith is so inspiring. And the way that you tell your story, which we will get to, is just incredibly hopeful for so many people who walk through tragic situations in life. And so I just can't wait to chat. But before we get into the story and before we get into your life, let's start with the question I ask everyone on the whole that's good podcast. What is the best piece of advice that you have ever been given, Maddie? So I think it may not be the best, but it's what stuck with me the most. And when I was thinking about it, it came to mind first.

So when I was graduating from college, I went to the University of Tennessee and studied creative writing, always wanted to be a writer. My dad's a songwriter, my mom wrote a book. There was a New York time best seller. It's just, it's what I love, you know. And dad said to me, after college,

he goes, sugar, I think you have this gift, but you need to live your life. And you'll end up writing about your life. And at that point, I don't think I understood it. And honestly, felt like a lot of my 20s, when I was doing different jobs, it weren't really relevant to that. That I was kind of like wasting my time. And then obviously with Limits on Friday, as we, as I told you before, it's not the story that I hope that would be my first thing to write about and put out there. But I remember thinking back on that and saying, you know, what he was right.

And that, you know, means a lot to me is a writer who's just put out their first book. But also, I think there's a lot that I've gleaned from it looking back, you know, that anyone can, especially early in life, or like in a season of transition, because I'm such a, I'm such a goal person. I'm such a to-do list and steps person that I think what it gave me permission to do is not know.

And just follow the way that that God leads my heart and follow where my passions are and just work hard where I am knowing that like God will weave the pieces together and not having a plan because sometimes okay. So yes, I love that and I love how even in not having a plan you're still working. I think so many people think like okay well eventually God's going to do this and I'll just sit back and wait. It's like no work, wow you wait you know, because normally it's what you're working on while you're waiting that's preparing you for what's to come.

And that is exactly what was happening in your story. And that is a really cool thing to know that that was something you wanted to do is to write and that's something you're gifted in. Obviously your parents have that skill for those who don't know. Your dad is Alan Jackson. And I love how even when you said sugar, I was like, that's a big one. I love that. I love that.

That's so, that's so like Southern that's it. I was like, I love that. That's so epic. That's so like Southern and just great. But it's like, you have this amazing gift. A lot of people have crazy stories that happen to them. And there's a book that they write or they co-write. That's an amazing story. But maybe, you know, the writing isn't as good, but the story is incredible.

And which makes the book good. But yours is really unique because your story is very powerful, but also your writing is incredibly powerful. You can tell you're really gifted in that. And that's why I think this book is such a great read, is because it's a very personal story, but it's also really well written, which I appreciate. And so just well done. Way to do it. Way to go there. Okay, so with that being said, tell me a little bit about your life. Like, who is Maddie,

Jackson's like, man, how'd you grow up and the journey to where you are at now? Yeah, I mean, like you said, Alan Jackson's my dad. So I grew up in Nashville because it's where country music is. And grew up in that environment, which was very unique and very special. And I, by way of that, got to have some really cool experiences in life. And I think looking back, seeing the way that, you know, dad managed his career and his time, it always sort of put a little seat in my heart that I wanted to do something different. I mean, I respect the heck out of my friends that can do business, you know, and marketing

and work in offices, but I just always had this dream of kind of just being creative and doing different things in life. And as lovely as that sounds and as exciting as and that sounds to just be creative, it doesn't give you a whole lot of people trying to give you a job after college. So when I went to college, I got an English degree, a writing degree. And so in the meantime, after I graduated college, like I told you,

knew I wanted to write, but needed a job, a real job. So I started working in restaurants as a lot of people do. I was 22 and by way of that experience got a lot of exposure to wine, because it was a steakhouse and that's just kind of a big part of that environment. And really fell in love with it. I, my parents didn't really drink wine growing up so it's not like I had to have exposure,

but I've always loved food and cooking and traveling and culture. And it's all that sort of wrapped up in this world of wine. And so most of my 20s were spent in the food and wine industry. And I studied it and got certifications and worked for an importer and worked for a winery and just did kind of what I told you. Did all the things in the industry of this thing that I was passionate about. And ended up coming back to Nashville and opening a restaurant here for a few

years, which is where I was until summer of 2018. So that was four years ago. And had this restaurant here, and in the midst of opening it and working like crazy 17 hours a day and trying to run this business, you know, as a young mid 20 something woman met my husband, Ben. And he is went to Tennessee also, and as for me, he's Tennessee, and we met through mutual Ben and he is went to Tennessee also and is from East Tennessee and we met through mutual friend and just fell in love quickly and had a very kind of wrong-comy like romance. I mean, he's just the most charming charismatic, joyful person, you know, I've known and it just very easy to fall in love with him.

So you have to share, you have to share and start inter-up because I heard you tell the story about how he like asked you out because I just like loved the guy's confidence and persists on me. Oh God. Like yes, toxic confidence almost. But no, but we met through a mutual friend and just did a cookout, whatever.

And at that time was sort of casually dating someone else, it wasn't anything. but anyway, I'm like walking inside to get a snack and he's on the grill and he just kind of jumps in front of me and says, hey, I'm Ben, I grew up with Caroline. I was like, yeah, I think we've met and he said, I'd really love to take you out. And I was just like, wow, that's bold and surprising.

And I was like, okay, well, I can't and he's why. And I said, well, I'm kind of seeing someone else. And he kind of tried to go inside and he like dodged me again and I was like, what's he doing? And he was like, well, when can I ask you again? And I was like, what does that mean? Like, I just kind of floored. And I think I just, for lack of any better word said,

I don't know, like a month and just sort of blew my hands. Okay. So I tell two in the book three months later, I got a text from an 865 number, which is Knoxville, which is where he's from, saying, hey, Maddie, it's Ben Seleckman. And I asked you out at Caroline's, and he told me to give it a month.

So I gave it three for good measure. So like, how about the date? And I was like, this is wild. So I text my friend Caroline, I'm like, what is this? Like, what should I do here? Mind you, he lived in Memphis. I lived in Nashville at the time and she texts back which I love so much She texts back. He's a great guy. He loves the Lord. He's a good time. I think you'll have fun I don't think you'll marry the guy, but you should go

Was her toast at our rehearsal dinner. So it was a pretty hilarious Yeah, yeah. That is so funny. It's kind of funny. My friend did the same thing for me whenever I started dating Christian. She was like, no, like it is the wrong timing for you. This is not your guy. Kind of thing. I do not just date another guy. It was like, trust me. Like, I really think. I really think this is a good one. And then when we got engaged, she literally told Christian she was like, sorry, I really didn't think you were the one.

And I was like, I'm so sorry. So you and Ben start dating and then you all eventually get married and then a couple of weeks up until you all's anniversary, something really tragic happened. And so you wanna tell the listeners now a little bit about that time in your life, what happened

and kind of where lemons on Friday, the story's really coming from. Yeah, sure. So that was, let's see, we got married October of 2017 and then, slavery weakened of 2018 went on a little trip to Florida with my two sisters and their then-boyfriends and some friends. A lot of them had birthdays that week and so we're just kind of celebrating everyone.

And you know, my dad's a big fisherman, so he has a boat down there and we just took like a really fun afternoon cruise and like eight dinner on the boat and went to this little like, teaky bar and danced and had drinks and just had a nice night of it celebrating everybody and we were all done and we were going back to get back up on the boat and it'd been kind of hurry it up to help some of the girls up onto the boat,

the tide had risen, so there were big steps to get back up there and it was wet and his sandal just hit it the wrong way and he slipped and fell back and hit his head on a concrete dock. And at that point, obviously, we rushed over to make sure he was okay, but it sort of, it didn't panic me too much.

It kind of looked like, you've watched 100 high school football games, it happens, they get up, they shake it off, and they're probably have a concussion, but they're okay. So that's sort of what we were thinking. And by God's grace, there were some off-duty EMTs at this little place where we were at the marina, and they kind of checked them out and said,

you know, you all need to go to the ER. So we went and that first night, obviously very worried and disoriented, not being at home and not knowing where we are. And the doctor say, you know, right now he's okay. His brain is starting to swell just from the impact of the fall. He may have to have brain surgery. And at that point, I mean, talk about shocking you back into reality.

But even still, they said, we don't have to do it right now. We're gonna watch him overnight. So the first 24 hours we were in the hospital, he was coherent and awake and knew who I was and could kinda talk, was clearly disoriented and in pain. And then I obviously called his parents, they came down. And that next night they called him a little night and said, hey, we're gonna have to do surgery. We have to put him in a medically induced coma.

So the total time in the hospital, he was there for 12 days, multiple brain surgeries, medically induced coma the whole time. And it was just too much on his body. And the 12th day, they called him in the middle of the night and said, you know, his, his heart's failing. And if y'all can get here, we can keep him alive. So that was September 12, 2018. So it was about three weeks before our first wedding anniversary. Well, my gosh. That is, that's crazy.

And I can't even imagine. And like I said before, I'm so grateful that you're even sharing this story because I know that so many people listening, something like this has happened to, you know, tragic things happen. I love how you said, one time you said, people slip and fall.

And how do you feel like having that perspective of what happened has helped get you through? Because I feel like it's in those moments that you start to go down like all the why questions like why this happened. Like what can we have done different? And maybe you wrestle through that. Maybe talk about some of the wrestle through those questions

and getting to the point where you realize that life does happen. And stuff like that. How have you come to cope with that being that? Yeah, I mean, I think that's what's so hard is that everyone knows right that another day is it guaranteed. Like we know that in our head, but then when something as simple and seemingly

unharmful as a slip and a fall ends up in a tragedy like that, it does make you question it, makes you question, what could we have done differently that night? What could they have done differently in the hospital? Did I give them enough information? And where was God? I mean, you go from like these literal practical questions to these huge questions of faith.

And that's really what the lemons on Friday is. You know, when he died, I didn't, I've never experienced anything tragic until this. I had no idea how to manage grief. I had no idea what it was gonna feel like. I had no idea really how to going to feel like. I had no idea really had a hurt well to be honest with you. And all I know to do at that point was be honest about those questions. And I did that in a journal because I didn't even quite know how to voice them to myself,

much less other people. And that was where I really kind of went to battle and went rounds with God is why us, like, I mean, you in Christian are such an incredible example. And like, Ben and I truly prayed, like, use our marriage for the good of your kingdom. Like, that's what marriages are. And so when he let this go so quickly, I just couldn't understand why we can allow it.

And I will say this is not like a pastor approved theological answer, but what I know in my soul from my time with the Lord and the Spirit, he didn't cause that to happen. I don't believe he causes us to suffer. He hates death, that's very clear in scripture. But if you believe in a God who is good and a God who is sovereign, I had to accept that he allowed it. And that was the biggest thing to grapple with is,

if you're in control and you could have stopped this, or you could have healed him in the hospital, like we played for him, miraculous healing. And that didn't happen for us. How do I accept that you're still good and you're still sovereign, but you didn't choose to intervene for me? And I think that's the struggle, as believers in the world, is people

slip bad things happen, mass shootings happen. I mean, this has been a really, really hard a couple years for the world. And how do we pacify that? And I think the only answer that I know how to give is where I arrived. And that was at a certain point, I kind of felt the Lord say, like, if I gave you these answers, what would it change? And it made me think, okay, if I got a handwritten apology, you know, postmarked heaven, here's why, here's what happened, here's all the good that's gonna come from it, it still wouldn't have helped me in that moment, because my heart was still broken, my husband was still gone, and I had to still continue to learn how to live. And so at that point, it sort of went from, okay, I have to lay down and surrender this very human desire to understand and to get the wise answered. Because when I lay that down, I can choose trust over understanding. And that's the only way I'm going to be free from this. Well, I'm like, I'm like so already blown away.

And I'm like, everyone just stop and go back and listen to everything you just said again. And that's what I feel like in your book. That's what I feel like every interview to watch from you. It's like when you speak, you speak with such ease and so much power comes out. And you can tell it's from your prayer life. You can tell it's from those moments wrestling with God.

And I love how you take the time to wrestle with God. I think so many people are like, either almost like falsely naive to things or like don't wanna talk about the bad, because they're like, oh God's good, God's good. And like, I'm not even gonna like go there with the bad. But then like you also have to understand, you also have to acknowledge that things are bad

and things do hurt and life does happen. But it's like wrestling through how are you still good in all that. And coming to the point that you are sovereign and you do have a plan that we can't see and it's greater than this time that we have on earth because it goes to eternity and just wrestling that out. And I think some people don't want to ask those questions. You talk a little bit about the tendency to want to numb the pain and distract yourself from it and really go in there with it, especially right after the funeral.

You talk about like, okay, what now? I'm sure the thing you want to do is just not even think about it, avoid it, but you like to have straight into it. And so talk about just diving into those things, like wrestling with God, diving into the things, feeling the hurt in order to move forward.

Yeah, I appreciate that question and everything you said, because I think that there's a tendency and I won't speak for everyone, but I think when you grow up, especially in the church, like we did, there is some sort of thought that we internalize as a kid that's like, okay, if we believe God is good,

like everything should be fine. Like yes, I do believe there is a reason for everything, but I think that that shouldn't be like a reason that you can't hurt, you know? It's like I said when I started this process with the book, I told my editors, I said, the last thing I wanna do is put a scripture bandaid on something that is a gaping wound.

Like you can't do that, you know? And it's a part of it. And my faith was what buoyed me through the darkest days when I dove in. And so I think that, you know, we feel valiant when we act tough. And especially when we use our faith as armor, which it is, I mean, it is the armor of God,

but I think that they're the only way to healthily live and grieve and hurt and heal and like navigate this life. I talk about the fact that like God made us with two hands, one to hold onto his promises that everything will be redeemed. Like my heart will be healed. He will give me new life here at eternity. But in the other hand, you gotta be honest about how broken you are.

You know, like, and if you look at the people in scripture, they don't sugarcoat stuff. Like they go through really, really hard things. I mean, like Paul literally says, I wanted to end my life. And I think that we, we cheapen our faith when we don't invite God into the really, really hard parts.

Like, he wants to be in our joy, but man, look at Jesus. Like, he came in to hang with the sick people and the outcast people and broken hearted people and like, I just think about human relationships, right? When you go through something really hard with someone, if you do it well and do it together, like it enriches your relationship in a way that easy, peasy seasons don't.

And that's what I would tell people is like, you being upset with God, you grappling with God, you questioning God, if it's with the intention, not to walk away from him, but with the intention to really say, I gotta hear from you on this. Like these points are connecting for me and I need your help.

When you do the struggle with him, your relationship with him enriches too, just like it does with people. And so, like your doubt is not, it is not undermining your faith that can really enrich it when you, you can you just sort of battle with him. So true, that's so good and such good encouragement because

People sitting there in that moment agree for they have all these thoughts If they don't get themselves the grace to get them out or the space to do that Like I think that's what people grow like truly better and can't move on or you never I guess move on but move forward You know, right? Um those type of things. Um, I love how you shared that. It was almost like God was preparing been in this little way for Yoss Anniversary to come. And this story, that part of the story was so crazy to me, and I was just like, wow. And just so you know, for the listeners,

I am saying some parts of the book, but there is so much more than everything we're going to talk about. So you have to get the book. But there's this part where it's just like, whoa, God really went before. And not that this makes everything better, not that this even makes everything easier. And in some sense, it was probably really hard, but at the same time, it was really sweet. And so talk about Y'all's anniversary, your first anniversary when he had just passed. Yeah. So one thing that people ask me or have very often is like, what do you know about God or what did you learn about God in this process?

And my answer is that he's so personal and he's so tender. And this story is part of what taught me that. And so like I said, three weeks before our first anniversary is when he passed away. So I'm approaching that day and obviously have no idea how to handle it, have no idea how I'm gonna feel. Obviously, tons of anxiety, tons of just sorrow and frustration and just everything that you would feel. And so going into it, I knew, I knew it was gonna be brutal.

I also knew that I needed to plan something to try to celebrate, which sounds crazy, but I'm like, this is the day that I should be celebrating with him, and if he could look down and phone me from heaven, he would be like, you need to celebrate. Like, this is what we would be doing. So I did it the best I could to plan a little dinner with like my girlfriends and his mom and my family

and dadada, but then I woke up that morning and nothing in me wanted to celebrate. Of course, yeah. But there was a little part of me that thought, if I don't deal with this, if I do what Maddie's default mode is, which is to push forward and push my feelings down and try to just stay strong and be okay,

I'm gonna, I can't do that. Like that's not gonna work for me. And I won't be able to enjoy a moment of this evening, which I might be able to, you know, if I really take time to sit still with how terrible this is. So I stayed at home that morning and honestly all I wanted to do was see him. Like all I wanted to do was see him and his infectious joy and his smile. And so I

watched our wedding video every moment of it. I held this beautiful gift from him that I had found and just sobbed. I just sobbed. Harder than I had sobbed except for the moment I told him goodbye. And how I know how tenderness we got is and how personal and intimate he is in our lives is that what the gift was, our inverse, she was in October. And before he passed and I think July,

we got a package from Etsy. And I had gone downstairs where he had just a law office. And I said, what is this from Etsy? And he said, don't open it. And he said, why? And he said, well, it's it's for our anniversary and I just thought of an advance and like, I really don't want you to open it till then. And I was like, okay, well, that's shocking. Like men don't plan that far in advance. No, I don't. I didn't think about it again. Found it when I came home from Florida right after he had died and really debated opening it. But I just felt like this was such a God wink.

And it was such a way to honor, you know, something that Bennett asked me to do. So I waited till that morning and I opened it. And it was a bouquet of paper roses, which is papers, the first anniversary. And it was made of hymnal pages. And the fact that the fact that Ben had the fourth thought to gift this to me in this special way. I mean,

himnal pages, it's so cool. And the fact that God prompted him and God knew that I would need that, you know, like, he probably didn't have any. I don't think there was like a direct line, like, Hey, you're going to go get our roses made of himnal pages. So specific and so tender and so kind. And I kind of just knew in that moment, like, like, God, you're really not going to leave me in this. Like you're really in every tier and like every breakdown and every moment.

And it was just beautiful and heartbreaking and tragic all at the same time. But I think that, yeah, he's in it. He's in the world. That is so powerful. It makes me think of that verse that talks about even though the grass withers and fades, the word of God will remain. And, you know, most anniversary gifts have to do with flowers,

and it would be a flower that would die, it would weather and would fade. But what he gave you was the eternal word that lasts forever, and the shape of roses. Like, it's just so cool. Like, that's the thing that you'll be able to hold on to forever and what a symbolic thing even just with that word. So, that is just so cool. One thing I love is that your plan on your anniversary was going to be with your family and your friends and your people.

I'm sure it's hard to invite people into that moment, or maybe you need people in that moment. And I think these are the questions that sometimes I have a hard time asking people who have gone through something tragic. So I'm just gonna ask you since you are so great at talking about some of these things. Like, for people who are not the person who went through the tragic thing,

how do you love someone well in that moment? Is it asking the questions? Is it not? Is it showing up? Is it listening? Is it speaking? Because I think sometimes people, like I remember even when my great-grandpa died.

And I like started avoiding my great-grandma because I just didn't know how to handle that. And I remember all she wanted was me to show up, you know? But that was hard for me because it felt awkward. I didn't know what to say. I didn't want to say the wrong thing. And so for you, what were some of the ways that your community came around you that was very helpful

for those listening who were like, I want to help and I don't want to say too much or I don't want to hurt the problem even worse. Yeah, sure. I think I appreciate so much that people felt tender enough to worry, honestly. So I hope that people felt tender enough to worry, honestly. So I hope that people here don't feel bad that you don't know what to do

or don't feel bad that you feel nervous. I think that's you having a tender heart toward whoever's hurting. Right. For me, I mean, and everyone needs different things. I'll say that. And even as someone who was grieving and had a great community,

I needed different things on different days, different things at different moments. And so I think exactly what you've said is what I've told people, is that at the end of the day, especially if you lose someone very close to you who's in a daily part of your life. Like I just didn't want to be alone and I wanted to feel as normal as I could

because I felt the least normal human on the planet. I felt like no one who's 28 has experienced this, nobody can ever understand what I'm going through. And I feel like I'm just going to be this black sheep forever. And so what I needed was actual just presence. And honestly, I don't think the words even matter. I couldn't tell you what any of my friends said to me for the most part. But they were there. And you know, genuinely asked. I think this is powerful,

rather than trying to guess what I loved as people would say, hey, do you wanna talk about Ben or do you want me to tell you everything that's going on in my life? Like why my job is a nightmare, why my husband is irritating, what my children are nothing up their nose, like what I've been watching on Netflix because there was a moment where I really would want to get lost in somebody else's life because that felt normal for it.

But there were some days where I really wanted to talk about him and maybe I wanted to cry about him or maybe I wanted to like tell a funny story and laugh and the fact that they simply said, hey, well number one, do you want to talk at all or do you just want to hang? Do you want to talk about Ben or do you want me to talk about my life and kind of get lost in it for a second? And I thought that was so powerful and so kind and I love that that's such great advice just ask like I said they I think so many times we think we have to have all the answers But a lot of times asking the questions the best way to go and I I love that, about, it's really cool to have the understanding that in those moments,

you just feel like anything but normal. And sometimes you just want to, it's like, it's like whenever life's stressful, and sometimes you're like, let me just get lost and someone else is drama, so you watch Grey's Anatomy, or something like that. Like there's nothing wrong with that. Yeah, let me just see someone else in the situation.

No, I totally get that. One thing I'm so excited to ask you about this because I love God dreams. Like God dreams are the craziest thing. I've had a couple here and there that I've just been really honestly powerful moments in my life that might have even shifted life in a different way just from a dream I've had.

And you shared the story about a dream that you had right before Christmas that was just honestly wild. And so like honestly wild. And so can you tell us about the dream that you had and then unpacking just some of the things that the revelation that God gave you following that dream? Yeah, so it's pretty long, so I'll try to give you a little bit of the cliff notes for you. It's okay, we have time. Okay, cool. So the reason that this sort of dream thing came about at all

is that many, many people after Ben passed, I mean, very soon after he passed, in the first month or two, that were a part of our lives kept calling or texting me, and saying again to circle back, I had a dream about Ben, I don't know if you want to hear it or not. And I always wanted here, it's what it asks. And every dream was like perfectly tailored to the person and their relationship to him and the message always was

in some different way. Like he's at home with the Lord. Like he's he's living it up in heaven. Like, that was the message. And so I kept praying. I was like, God, like, I deserve one of these. Is honestly what I prayed. I was like, I need this. Like, not to confirm that he's there because I know that we're on a shadow of a doubt,

but I just, my heart's broken. Like, I would give anything for him to come back. And I need to see that he's so overjoyed that he wouldn't come back if he could. You know, like, that's what my heart needs. And I prayed that for several months and honestly felt really frustrated that I wasn't getting anything. And it was three days before Christmas, about three months after he died. And I was at my parents' farm, which is right outside of Nashville.

And so I was in a room with my sister packed a little overnight bag and woke up at like 5 a.m. It's still dark and had this insane dream like jumped up was like I can't wake her up But I got to write this down and so I grabbed like a flannel out of my bag put it on go downstairs to like write all this down And what the dream was was basically my own little trip to heaven And so I got up there somehow and it started out, with this little sort of outdoor shopping market, which I don't really know the relevance of that, but he was there, like interacting with all the shop people,

and like talking to some of the other customers, and like clearly had friends, and I was just like in shock watching him, because he was fine. And then I saw his dad across the way. And he ran up and his dad always called him bentonious. And he ran up and gave him this huge bear hug and said, Tonyus and they had to amend it.

And then he saw me and came over. And I was just like, please don't leave me. Please don't leave me. And he said, I'm not going anywhere. And we like shopped. And he was picking out. He turned around and pulled up this flannel that was like red and black just like one he had in real life. And he was like, should I get it? And I was like, no,

you already have one and he looked kind of disappointed. And then we went on. And so he, well, no, he put it on. And so then we walk around and it's literally just us going through what would be his version of heaven. I mean, it was outdoors, animals everywhere, rolling hills, he was a big outdoorsman in Hunter. And we even saw, there was one point, we saw seven little turkeys go by, which was another crazy God wink that had happened to me in real life. We saw Dubs over head, which is obviously like

presence of the Holy Spirit. And then we saw this pack of little tiny baby yellow labs, just like the one we had got two months ago. We like had her collar on and he picked her up and like showed her to this man who was next to him and said, this one's my girl. And so that's when I looked up there and I was like, who is this man?

You can't really see his face, but he was so peaceful and so strong and you could tell they were like best friends. And it hit me that it was Jesus. So he was standing up here with Jesus on this hill and it was like he was showing me where our life on earth and his life in heaven were intersecting and it was just crazy.

So the real finale of it was that and like Jesus kind of disappeared and then Ben started to walk toward me and I was begging him again, like, please don't leave me, please don't leave me. And he was like, I have to go, but you will be okay. Like, you will be okay. And I was like, no, you can't.

He said, like, grab my hands again and said, you will be okay. And at that point, he turned to walk away and I saw all these lashes on his back. And they were, they weren't fresh, like they weren't bloody, I mean, that's kind of gross, but they looked like scars that had healed. And I ran up to him and I was like,

oh my gosh, are you okay, what happened? And he turned back and looked at me and said, Maddie, it is the coolest story, but I know you already know it. And then he turned and walked away and I woke up and part of what that was so powerful. All the other little things were crazy. Like no joke, that flannel that I grabbed out of my bag and the dark that I put on was the exact one that was in the dream. I had gotten it out of his

closet. It's insane. Crazy. The dog, our dog with the same collar, all of that, wild. But the lashes, I remember being in the hospital that whole week and I keep praying for miracle, praying for miracle. And then at the very end, you know, they pulled them off life support and we were there. And by some miracle, I looked down and realized like he had all these holes in his hand from all the IVs and he had literal X's on his feet from where they had trying to be circulating his blood and he literally looked like he had a crown of thorns all the way around his head because he had staples all the way around his head. And looking down and feeling like this is how God sees him.

Like God sees him with every scar that Jesus took on his behalf. Like he is literally covered by Christ and he is going to be with them. And so the dream ending like that was just God's confirmation of what you saw at his bedside was true. And the only thing I couldn't see with him laying in a hospital bed was his back. And so when he walked away, it was like,

he's got these scars too. Like he is 100% covered in Christ and you can let him go, like you can let him go. Wow. Oh my gosh. That is like the craziest. It's wild. And it's just so cool because there's just confirmation of your confirmation. Like the seven turkeys like you said, the dove, the lap, then Jesus. And I love how you said like he was so strong and so peaceful and like it's just amazing. But when you said that about having holes in his hands and the exonus fee and the crown of thorns

and even the tube in his side, I think you know. Oh yeah, I forgot that one. The tube in his side, I was like, oh my word, God, literally gave you a picture of Christ. And that is just incredible. I love how you mentioned after that that dream, although powerful and wild and crazy, didn't make all the pain go away, you know. And I think some people, you know, have these God dreams and they're amazing. But then you still feel the pain,

or some people haven't had that yet, and they're sitting in the silence of it, and you still feel the pain or some people haven't had that yet and they're sitting in the silence of it and you still feel the pain. You talk about paper cuts kind of being a way you describe the pain sometimes as you're walking through and so just for the person specifically walking through a grief right now, who was wrestling with that, like they've had moments where they've seen the purpose or they've had moments where they've seen God.

Maybe they have it and they're sitting here and they're like, I just don't, I'm just sitting in the pain. I'm feeling the paper cuts. I'm getting it. Um, just from a sister who understands, you just want to take a moment to just directly encourage the person who's listening, um, and just the story that she's in because I just feel like there's so many people who probably a friend sent them this podcast and are like, you have to hear this. This girl's been through something similar. We just speak to that person just for a minute.

Yeah. Yeah. I would say for the person waiting, if you haven't had, if you, if you feel like God's silent, like number one, he's not, but keep asking, keep asking, keep asking for what your heart needs. It's not silly. It's, it's what he wants from us. Like say to your mom,

what do you want more than, what do you weight more than when your daughter can talk to you and say, mom, I need this from you. And you want to give it to her. Like he wants to give you those dreams and those affirmations because it's a good father. So keep asking, keep asking. And if you have had them and then like me fall right back into the everyday pains because that's what Grief is, them and then like me fall right back into the everyday pains because that's what grief is. I call them paper cuts in the book because it feels like I remember thinking everything was a trigger. Like everywhere I would look, every song I would hear, everything I would see would remind me of him and would hurt and it would really, I kept being frustrated. Like why does seeing Halo oranges in the grocery store make me cry? Like yeah, I remember feeling these like these are never gonna stop like I'm gonna live in a constant world

Where everything is sad and things that used to make me happy are always gonna make me cry And that is how it feels at the beginning and I would say Honor that don't act like it's you know don't act like your weak because little things trigger you Share them with people if that makes you feel better, write them down if that makes you feel better, try to figure out how you can feel it and let it out and then take another step forward, but my encouragement would be like those paper cuts soften. You know, they really do, they don't go away,

but they don't cut as deeply with time and with faith and with real work to acknowledge them and honor them because they the little things that that will always remind you of the person you've lost or the little things that remind you of what you're praying so hard for and maybe waiting for that you don't have yet like maybe you're waiting for marriage maybe you're waiting for a baby and every time you get an invitation it cuts you you. And that's okay. And it will, God will help you endure those. And they honestly will help in your healing when you, when you take the time to respect how painful they are. It's okay. Yeah. That's so good. Just giving people permission to honor and respect that. Because it is real.

Like I said, there's this tendency to like sometimes like it's all okay and just bury that emotion, bury that thing. And just heard this sermon the other day, and it was so good. And it was talking about how Jesus felt every emotion fully in Neverson. And I was like, wow, that is so powerful to think about that you can fully feel angry and you can fully feel sad.

And you can fully feel all those things. And that doesn't mean that's a bad thing. Like Jesus whipped over the death of his friend. sad and you can fully feel all those things and that doesn't mean that's a bad thing, you know, like Jesus Whipped over the death of his friend. He felt angry over the unjust things But at the same time he still remained in relationship with the father and so yeah Honor those things feel those things have those moments and that isn't make you weak That's actually a part of making you strong and so it isn't make you weak. That's actually part of making you strong. And so for an I'm so glad to even just know you now. And I'm so grateful that you wrote this

book again for those listening. It's lemons on Friday. You can get it. I'm sure anywhere books are sold. Is that right? Yep. Anywhere books are sold. And also I just want to say you said this at the beginning that Christian and I have been such a good influence. And you and Ben had those dreams of that and I just want to say y'all are that. You know, I know you have new relationships now, you have a new thing, you're doing stuff at the same time like y'all have done that. And I did actually go online and watch y'all's wedding video and it was so sweet and so

cute and he was just larger than life and looked like so much joy in a good time. And some of the things y'all said, y'all had planned to do. I know it wasn't what you thought, it wasn't what y'all had planned, but y'all have began and will continue to touch the world with the relationship that y'all had and the faith that you have. And so thank you for diving in for wrestling with God and for putting out incredible words to process and help people process The grief that they're going through hugely encouraging and just a woe that's good book So thanks for being on the podcast Thank you, Sadie for all of that. I just I really appreciate it and I just tell people like

Hold on to hope just never let go of it. Feel everything else but hold on to hope It's great. It's so good. Well, thank you friend. I hope we get to meet in person because you're awesome. I know. Yes and God bless everyone who's listening. Go get the book right now. Read the words and respect all the feels. you