WHOA That's Good Podcast - How to Tell the Truth with Kindness & Love | Sadie, Christian & Preston Perry

Episode Date: January 8, 2025

Preston Perry joins Sadie and Christian for an in-depth conversation on evangelism and sharing the Gospel with others. Preston is a poet, evangelist, and author, and he hosts a podcast with his wife, Jackie Hill Perry. Preston describes when he first realized he was a poet. Sadie asks how we can be bold but loving when sharing the Gospel. Preston says we all need to get over the "savior" complex and trying to be the "Holy Spirit" in any evangelism conversations — but what about the importance of simply planting seeds and not seeing the end result? God made us all different and will use us all differently! Don't miss any of this uplifting, encouraging conversation! Get your copy of Preston's "How to Tell the Truth: The Story of How God Saved Me to Win Hearts — Not Just Arguments" today!  https://helixsleep.com/sadie — Get 25% off sitewide AND 2 free Dream Pillows with your mattress purchase! https://drinkag1.com/whoa — New subscribers get a FREE $76 gift when you sign up. You’ll get a Welcome Kit, a bottle of D3K2 AND 5 free travel packs in your first box! http://www.dreamlandbabyco.com — Get 20% off sitewide and free shipping when you enter my code WHOA at checkout! - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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you don't even mind that it feels like bedtime at 5pm. Christian and I have a Helix Midnight, which is what we matched with when we took the Helix Sleep Quiz. It's perfect for us because we are both side sleepers and like the bed, not too firm, not too soft. It is perfect for us. Our Helix was a major upgrade from our old mattress and the difference in our sleep quality is so obvious. Not only does it help me sleep better, but it also helps me have fewer aches and pains and more energy throughout the day and it truly has been the biggest game changer for sleep. So go to helixsleep.com slash Sadie for 25% off site-wide and two free dream pillows

with your mattress purchase. That's helixsleep.com slash Sadie for 25% off site-wide plus two free dream pillows with your mattress purchase helixsleep.com slash Sadie. ["I'm On My Way To You"] What's up everybody? Happy Wednesday. I hope you're having a great week, but per usual, ooh, it is about to get so much better because we have an incredible guest on the podcast.

And to help me co-host, I have my husband Christian. Say what's up. What's up, I'm the co-host today. He's the co-host because we are both so mutually excited for the guest that we have. You guys have known his wife because she's been on the podcast twice. But today we are so lucky and honored

to have Preston Perry on the podcast with his new book, How to Tell the Truth. Y'all, this book is such an important message to the church, to believers. Everybody, before you even listen to this, should go buy it. But definitely by the end, you're going to. So Preston, welcome to the podcast. Hi Sadie.

I love it. I was just telling him it was so funny because Jackie and I, it's so sweet because I just respect her so much love her so much and she's always said the same to me but we are so different in personality and it really rang true in my intro to Jackie because I just every time I'm like you're about to have an even better week and blah blah and then Jackie's like heyie. That was like everyone's favorite thing. So Preston, thank you for meeting me with the Perry energy. I love it, I respect it.

Look, we ask the same question every single time to a new guest on the podcast, and it's kind of a hefty one, so I do apologize. But the first question we have to ask is what is the best piece of advice that you've ever been given? Wow, that's, man, that's crazy because I have different nuggets of advice

for different areas of life. I think when it comes to marriage, the thing that helped my marriage, somebody told me that if God gave me a spouse that met my every condition, I would never learn how to love unconditionally. And I don't know why that just spoke to me so, so much. Because I think it just transformed the way I thought about marriage and covenant. And yeah, and I think it just transformed how I was as a husband.

And so I think that was some of the best advice I've ever given. That's cool. I love that. It's so cool too, to see like just how much you and Jackie's marriage has ministered to so many people. I was, we were both watching y'all's YouTube this morning and I watch it often, but we were watching it today to kind of prep for this podcast.

And I was just thinking, man, like they have ministered to so many people. One with what you say, absolutely. The words you say are so filled with truth and such a deep well, but even maybe more than that, the way that you just act, the way that you live, the way that you love one another has ministered to so many. So it's so cool to learn from you guys.

This book, like I said, it really is so important. I'm so excited to talk about it. Christian and I had like two pages of notes separately. So we're like, okay, you know what, we're going to just have to have a good conversation and let let it fly because we have so much that we want to ask. But before we get into everything, tell us a little bit about who you are, like your backstory, how you grew up and all the things. Yeah, yeah, that's a good question. So yeah, I'm from the south side of Chicago. Yeah, yeah, that's a good question. So yeah, I'm from the south side of Chicago. I'm from a place called The Hood. You know, I grew up with my mom. My mom, you know, was a single parent who raised me and my siblings. You know, and I didn't grow up in a church. I

didn't grow up going to church often. My mom would take me to church like on Easter and Christmas, but I didn't grow up in a church at all. And the only person that was a Christian in my family, like a real devout Christian in my family was my grandmother, who raised my mother ironically and all of her brothers in church. But I guess when they got older, they was just kind of churched out. So my mom had like a form of godliness, but she just didn't rock with the church like that. And so growing up in the hood, I just kind of became accustomed to the things that was around me. I grew up in a lot of poverty-stricken

areas. So around the age of 12, I started selling weed. Around the age of 12, I lost my virginity. Around the age of 12, I broke into my first car. I did everything kinda at 12 years old. You know, and I had uncles who I looked up to, but all my uncles were, you know, living the street life. And I grew up with a lot of cousins, and my cousins was like my brother. And, you know, just growing up,

I just grew up around a lot of criminal activity, to be honest with you. But when I got older, I kind of felt like the Lord was calling me. And it happened when I was chasing this girl who I liked in this house church in Atlanta. And her father and her mother was pastors. And the father came outside the parking lot before church started. They were like, they were about to get ready to start service. And he said, I know you like my daughter, but if you want to be around my daughter, you have to come to church. And so I was like, ah, so I didn't go in that day.

But the next Sunday I came in, you know, and this is around the time where I'm getting kicked out of school. This is like later on in my teenage life. I think I was in alternative school at this time. I went to four different high schools. I was arrested 16 times in high school. Just a really big problem, y'all. And I went to church that Sunday, I think I was 15,

and her father got up and said, if you think God being a God of love means he won't destroy all evil, you don't know what love is. If God is a God of love, he must hate all evil. And then he just started talking about the evil in our community and how it deserved death. But because God is a God of love, he's equally offering us grace and salvation to the person of Jesus Christ. And I was like, whoa. And so I heard about Jesus before, but this was the first time I heard about Jesus in this way, because it was kind of like, oh, God has beef with me. God hates the way I'm living. I was like, whoa. And so yeah, I can just

kind of go into my salvation story from there, but yeah, that's kind of how the Lord started pursuing me and kind of how I grew up and stuff like that. Wow, that's so crazy. So now, you're such a deep thinker, you're such a deep, we're gonna get into all that, but your past life, being such a wild kid,

were you always a deep thinker? Like, do you think that message just made you, like, go, whoa, that's deep, that's something I hadn't thought about before? Or is the deep thinking and the apology, all that, did that just come later in life once you found your relationship with the Lord? Or is that something that was kind of always in you?

Wow, Sadie, that's such a good question. I don't think anybody ever asked me that question. Yes, I think, you know what? I think the way God has created you, there are always going to be remnants of that even before you come to the Lord. And so I remember when I was 11 years old, I was getting in trouble in line of school and they assigned all of the bad kids, quote unquote bad kids, mentors to shadow them in class to help them with, you know, behavior issues. And I was getting into fights and this lady named Miss Magnus, like an older white lady,

she changed my life. She said, you know, we need to find an outlet for you. She said, because you're so angry, but there's a reason why you're so angry. And that was the first person who started trying to identify why I was angry. Because everybody always called me bad, but nobody ever asked me, like, why are you so bad? Or why are you so angry?

And so she told me to write the way I felt, and I just wrote the way I felt, and she read it, and she said, I think you're a poet. And I said, what? And she was like, I think you're a poet. And so she got this book from a woman named Gwendolyn Brooks. Gwendolyn Brooks was the first African American female poet to win a Nobel Peace Prize,

and she was from the west side of Chicago. And she gave me her book, and that was the first time I fell in love with language. And I started to see the beautiful possibilities of language and how it can change the world, right? And so I read this book by Gwendolyn Brooks and I started to write poetry. And this older white lady, I remember I wrote my first poem and she started to affirm me of how brilliant I was and how great of a thinker I was.

And I wrote this metaphor. I said, mom, I hate when you attack me with that gun that sits between your nose and your chin. And she was like, 11 year olds don't write like this. And so she just started to affirm my mind. And so as I started to grow up, I started to see that even though I lived in the middle of poverty, in the middle of violence, in the middle of gang banging, that God in his sovereignty strategically gave me a mind that would later on serve him. That makes sense.

Yeah. And so even before I became a Christian, God used people like Miss Magnus and other people to plant seeds to let me know what was in me. Yeah. Man, that's incredible. That's so cool. That's like the best piece of advice I've ever been given. I know.

No, that's so good because I think that like a lot of times, you know, when you look at somebody who is living such a wildlife, there's always a reason. You know, there's always a reason people act the way they act. I think even it's funny that you say that about me asking that question. You're like, no one's asked me that question before. And even with podcasting, I think so often, people ask the same questions to people because it's like the obvious question you should ask because it's like the obvious thing they're giving.

But I think you get to like better conversations when you ask like, I don't know, the deeper question. Like, why is it that way? How did you get to become such a deep thinker? And it's the same in life. I think like one thing podcasting has helped me understand is like the power of intentional questions. And so, yeah, instead of, you know, just assuming,

oh, that person's so bad, that person's so wrong. It's like, why do they get that way? Which I think you are so good at when it comes to like street evangelism. Like you are someone, I was watching videos this morning. I'm like, this is so cool. Cause yes, it's so bold. It's also something that you're teaching.

So you're able to learn from it. But it's like, that is intimidating to go up to people who believe so different or are so different. But do you feel like, I guess, because you felt misunderstood in the past and you had a bigger story to tell, is that why you feel like you give others a chance to uncover their stories? Is that where that questioning in you comes from, was maybe

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That's dreamlandbabyco.com and enter the code WOA at checkout to save. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. One thing I've learned about evangelism is every heart really has a cry. I think we just have to ask the right questions to hear it. Love that. A lot of people don't even realize why they believe the things that they believe. They don't realize how much the hurt and the pain that they endured in life have shaped their worldviews. One thing that I found out is that asking the right questions kind of unearths and

kind of reveals like, oh, this is the reason why I believe what I believe. this is the reason why I believe what I believe. And so I think, you know, I ask a lot of questions in evangelism, not just so that I can understand, but also to help them understand. And I think real evangelism is also like about like, it's kind of like counseling almost, you know, like, and I'm not trying to play the Holy Spirit, you know, but I'm just trying to make room for the Holy Spirit to speak. Yeah. I think that's the only job we have as evangelists is how can we be used so we can make room for the Holy Spirit to reveal, you know?

And so just asking the right questions. And so Jesus did that. Jesus always asks questions that he knew the answer to, not because he didn't know the answer, but because he was trying to reveal something. The woman at the well, where's your husband? He knew she had five, but he's trying to reveal something to her. So I think asking good questions is always good in evangelism because I think it helps

people to come up with their own conclusion about the state of their own heart, without you seeming accusatory, without you seeming like you're attacking them. And so I think that's just a really great tactic that Jesus kind of example, gave an of their own heart, without you seeming accusatory, without you seeming like you're attacking them. And so I think that's just a really great tactic that Jesus kind of example, gave an example for us. That's great. I love that so much. That's great.

Speaking of asking a question, I want to ask this and then I have a question kind of from what you talked about with Miss Magnus, but from an evangelism side, one of my favorite passages is Acts 8 with Philip and the eunuch. There's post, you know, post resurrection, post Jesus ascending to heaven, and it's, you know, there's this eunuch who's leaving Jerusalem from worship, and he's reading the prophet Isaiah, and you know, Philip goes and asks him, he says, do you understand what you're reading? And the eunuch says, how can I unless someone explains it to me? And it says, beginning with that very passage, he explained him the good news about Jesus. And then after that, the eunuch says, here's water,

why should I be baptized? And then he goes and be baptized, and then they both go their separate ways. But the thing about the question is, you know, thinking about it in our terms today, it's like if you see someone leaving church and they're reading the Bible, you usually would associate them with being saved. You probably wouldn't go ask them this question.

And something about the Philip, you know, Philip asking that question, do you understand what you're reading? It's so poignant, but I just love, you know, we do like a bunch of evangelism stuff at our church, and that's like one of our key stories of like asking good questions. And not only asking good questions, but if Philip would have gone over there and then it's the passage on Isaiah, like a sheep, he was led to the slaughter. If Philip would not have known what he was talking,

if the eunuch was like, it's Isaiah 51. And then Philip was like, ooh, I don't know that scripture. So you have to be equipped, but then you also have to ask good questions. So anytime I hear people talk about from an evangelism side of things, like asking the right questions, asking good questions,

that's one of my favorite scriptures to go to because it lays out being equipped, asking the right questions, and then here's water, why I shouldn't be baptized. So. That's so good. Because I think that what you're saying is that we have to ask the right questions, but if we are not equipped with the key foundations of the essentials of the gospel, we actually

don't really know the right questions to ask. And so I do think that God wants us to know the gospel, right? And I think a lot of times people are afraid of evangelism because they feel like they don't know enough. And I think that's one tactic of the enemy, to be honest with you, to feel like you have to know a whole bunch of information. I don't necessarily think that you need to know a whole bunch of information, but I do think that you need to be solid in what you do know. And that is that Jesus, who Jesus is and how he has revealed himself to his creation. I think that we need to know how we are saved. It is through grace in Jesus

Christ alone. It is not of our works. And I think that we need to explain, you know, how God exists. One God through a triune Godhead, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. And I think all the other stuff kind of falls, you know, in place when we know the gospel. And I tell people all the time, don't major over minors. There are gonna be certain things about

the Christian faith that you don't necessarily have to go deep in. But when you get out on the streets, people have a problem with who Jesus is. That's the main thing. A lot of people admit that He existed, but they deny His deity, right? A lot of people have a problem with how we become saved and how we get to heaven. And so, explaining how we get to heaven, that we're saved by grace through faith in Jesus alone, and explaining how God exists. And I think that if you focus on those three foundational essentials of the gospel, then you will kind of know, like, what are people, beasts? And then you will kind of know like, what are people beasts? And then you know the right questions to ask. And I think the last thing is the defense of the church.

I think a lot of people are just hurt by church. Christians, church people. And so I think understanding that you come from a group that has negatively impacted a lot of people. I think your behavior and your conduct then kind of informs how you should act when you get in the streets. You know? And so. I love the story you were telling. I think you were talking to, it was someone who believed in like her ancestors and stuff.

And as you were talking, like you realized you needed to shift gears based off of her past church, her and what had happened to her. And I love the quote that you said, like sometimes you have to drive like a different vehicle to get to the same destination. And I was like, that is so good. And just goes to show like, it's not gonna be like the same thing you say to every single person

because you have to account for the fact that people are hurt for a reason. Like there's a reason there's hurt. There's a reason there's confusion. There's a reason. Like, and so I think I love like you have carried this beautiful boldness, but also like loving kindness. And didn't you write down that quote that he said something about like boldness without

the spirit? Boldness without the spirit makes us fools. I was like, that's so good. That's so it. So how do you feel like whenever you're in a conversation, like active conversation with someone, you go in, you know all the stuff, but how do you hold the tension for like, just love?

You know, like how do you be bold and also be loving? How do you tell the truth, but also love someone? Cause I think that's the hard thing. People are like, I want to tell the truth, but I'm scared people are going gonna think I'm hateful. I'm worried that if people see that I'm a Christian, they're gonna think that I'm judgmental. Like, how do you stand firmly in the truth,

but also firmly in love? Yeah, because I think one thing that we have to kind of remember is boldness is not doing what men are afraid to do. Boldness is doing what God empowers you to do. Yeah. You know? And so I think that if we look at boldness in that way, that boldness is empowering, is an empowering of the Holy Spirit to do whatever he wants to do in the moment. Right?

In Acts chapter four, when Peter and John were arrested, you know, and they had to stand before the council the next day after they were released from prison, you know, the Bible says they was filled with the Holy Spirit to tell, you know, the priest like, no, Jesus Christ of Nazareth, y'all crucified him. He was a cornerstone that y'all rejected, right? And so these were the same group of men who hid in a house who was afraid after the crucifixion of Jesus. And so now they're standing before the same people who crucified Jesus with this Holy Spirit boldness because God empowered them in the moment to be bold.

And so it wasn't merely them just saying what men are afraid to do. It was God empowering them to be bold in the moment. And I think boldness is deeply connected with love. And I think that anytime our boldness is, is operated in lovelessness, it is, it is actually not boldness. It is just foolishness.ness. Because a fool can just say anything, but a bold person for the Lord, a bold person is going to say what God empowers him to say, but because God is a God of love, he's always going to allow you

to speak in a loving way for his glory? And I think that's the difference. Like, for example, you talk about the lady who worshiped her ancestors, you know, I wasn't necessarily afraid to tell her that ancestral worship was wrong. I wasn't afraid. Like, I didn't, I didn't, you know, it's not like I didn't care, but I'm just, I wasn't afraid at the moment, you know, but when she started to talk about her ancestors, I started to go to all of these scriptures. And what was crazy, every scripture that I brought up to her, she knew the scripture. And I was like, oh. So that told me, okay, she's familiar with the Christian church. So let me ask her, did you come from the Christian church?

And she said, yeah, yeah, I came from the Christian church. Why are you not a part of the Christian church? And then she said, I don't want to tell you that. So I was like, okay. I kind of backed off a little bit. And then something was just telling me she's hurt. She's hurt. And then I started talking about the sovereignty of God. And I started talking about just the all-knowingness of God. And when I started talking about the sovereignty of God, she was triggered. And she said, was it God's sovereignty that I got raped?

Was it God's sovereignty that the church blamed my rape on me? And at that moment, a fear came over me. And I think it was a healthy fear. It was not a fear to tell her the truth. The fear came over me that I don't want to further abuse her. I don't want to further mistreat her. I don't want to further wound her. And so it was this healthy fear, this healthy reverence over a fellow image bearer. And so I remember praying and I remember asking the Lord, Lord, I think

she, I know she needs the gospel, but I don't know how to give it to her. Help me. And I felt the Lord speak to my heart and say, share your wife's story. Share your wife's story. And so I started sharing my wife's story. And when I started sharing Jackie's story about her molestation, yada, yada, yada, I just left it at that. And I tell people all the time, when you ask good questions, especially with a combative person in evangelism, the moment they ask she will question with their guards down is when you started to kind of gain traction with her.

Wow, that's so good. Yeah. And she said, I'm sorry, I'm sorry that happened to your wife. She said, what, whatever happened to your wife? And so now I'm able to give her the gospel through Jack the Story. Wow. You know what, actually God ended up saving my life.

And she wrote a book called, Gay Girl, Good God. And God has used her to bring so many people out of bondage and yada yada yada. And guess what? God wants to do the same with you and he saw what happened to you and he's a God of love and he hated that. He hates sin.

And he will like, he will repay all those for what they have done. But he's offering you grace. He's offering you love. He's offering you freedom. He's offering you peace if you just turn from your sin and place your faith in him. So I was able to give her the gospel through another vehicle, not just throwing scriptures down her throat, right? Because she hated the scriptures.

But God gave me another vehicle to get to the same destination. And I think, I think boldness is not necessarily just blurring out a whole bunch of things that are true. Boldness is about obedience. And so I was, I asked the Lord, what did he want me to do? And I obeyed and I was still bold. That's great. That is so beautiful.

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Like, he just offered to drink from my cup. He's like, why is this Jewish man even talking to me? And like, because of his kindness and him asking the questions, she was asking him questions. And they got to this place of him revealing to her that he's the Messiah and it changed her entire life. And then all of a sudden she's going back to the town

and people are like, what happened to you? And then it changes an entire town. Like it's amazing. And that wasn't, I love that story because God didn't do any kind of, Jesus didn't do any kind of like miracle in that moment other than just seeing her, knowing her, loving her, getting on her level, being vulnerable.

And like, he could have done a miracle, you know? When he said this, well, it's like living water, he could have like made the water overflow. Like it could have been something that she could have gone back and said, come and see this. It wasn't even that, it was just come and see this man who knew me. Like, oh, that's just one of the best. And so it's-

And she didn't do a five-point sermon. She didn't talk about substitutional atonement. She didn't try to break down propitiation. She just said, go see for yourself. Go see. And that's what's so good. That's what everyone who is a believer needs to hear and take note of. When we're talking about evangelism,

like who is the evangelist? Like you're supposed to be, we're supposed to be, we all are. It's not just reserved for pastors, preachers, seminary school, like it's everybody. We preach it, Sadie. When you become a believer, it's you, you know? And I think that's what I love about what you preach

and how you live. It's like, you're just, you're equipping people with how to do it, but not in a way that it's like, you have to know everything. It's like, hey, love people well. Yeah, know the foundational things, know what really matters, know the truth. Yes, have a solid foundation, but then go like, love people well.

And that's pretty much what Jesus said. He's like, it comes down to this, love the Lord your God, the heart, soul, mind, strength, love your neighbor as yourself. And like, when you do those things, it covers a lot of the bases, you know? It kind of flows from there. You know, it's so good that you said that about boldness. I think that is what's such a turnoff sometimes to people, even on like social media to Christians, because it seems like you're just spitting out all of these, you know,

hot takes sometimes. Not when I say you, I'm not talking about us. I'm talking about sometimes I have felt like people feel like that's a turnoff for Christianity when they see such like bold takes without like, oh, that was 15 seconds. You don't understand like the context and maybe what we were talking about. But I remember one time I felt like I needed to say something that would have been bold, you know, that would have felt

like, oh gosh, this could get some, hey, this could get some canceling, this whole thing. But I really felt like God was putting on my heart to say it. So at the time, we happened to be going to Texas around that time, and we were gonna go eat dinner with Matt and Lauren Chandler, which Matt Chandler is someone that we really look up to, respect, and when I think of a bold pastor,

he is a very bold pastor. He's like- I love Matt. We love him. He preaches truth, he challenges the church, like he is such a good pastor. And so I was like, oh perfect guy to ask my boldness question to. And so I like lay it out like, hey here's what I feel like God put on my heart to say and I feel a little worried about it because yada yada yada and it feels really bold and he was like, you know, if God put that on your heart to say it,

I'm not gonna go against it and say, don't say it. But I do wanna ask you, why do you feel like you need to say it? And then he was like, because it might not be yours to say. He's like, it's true, someone needs to say it. And maybe it is you if God's convicting you that. He's like, but you need to think about who's listening to you.

He's like, you have a very broad audience. So if you say this, you need to really consider the way that you say it. So yes, it's in line with the truth, but also you want people to know that you love them. And if that got clipped, if that got clipped in a certain way, it could be a huge turnoff to people. And it was so good for me because I was expecting

Matt Chandler to be like, say it, you know, just say it. And he didn't. He was like, it might not be wise to say it. Like if God put it on your heart, then yes, you need to obey, but you also need to be very careful with this. And what was so cool is I went from that conversation, I prayed a lot into what I was going to say. And God gave me this beautiful analogy and story to say what I was going to say and hold true to the truth of God's word, but in a way that was so loving and in a way that people understood it in a new way. And it was so cool,

because I'm like, had he not given me that advice, I wouldn't have prayed into it more. I would have just kind of gone out and said it, like, this is what I'm gonna say, because God, and I'm just so grateful for that. And have just kind of gone out and said it, like, this is what I'm going to say, and I'm just so grateful for that. And so he kind of taught me, like, yeah, boldness is important, but yes, boldness has to also be met with love.

And I think that's what Jesus did. And wisdom. So beautifully, wisdom, discernment, like say it kindly, say it in the right timing. It's not just about going out and being bold for the sake of being bold. That's cool. So yeah, I love that.

That was so, so good. That's so good. Gosh. Okay. Do you have something? Because I feel like I have so many things. No, you're good. No, you're good.

I always have something to say and then you go into something new. So I feel like I'm backtracking, which is completely fine. But I was thinking about it when you were talking about the lady who was worshipping her ancestors about the verse where Paul talks about, I become all things to all people. There's that verse in Ephesians 6, which this verse is so interesting to me. So it's Ephesians 6 and 19. It's Paul's praying to God that the mystery of the gospel or that God would help Paul articulate the mystery of the gospel or that a guy would help, Paul articulate the mystery of the gospel, which is so interesting

because if anyone knows the gospel, it's Paul. Paul's praying that to these people that God would help explain the mystery of the gospel through him. And even kind of tying that verse in that I become all things to all people, that there are some situations where, whether it's an acts where he's reasoning with the people in the temple or where he's, you know,

deliberately just talking about the gospel. Like there's so many different ways, you know, to do evangelism and it's not the same way. Yeah, wait. It's not the same way every time. Can you tell that story about you and Jackie with the Jehovah's Witness in the airport? And as I put you on the spot with a specific story. But I love that story because it's so true

that evangelism is gonna look different for everybody. And you see that for you and Jackie on like a global ministry scale, but that was like a really good day-to-day scale. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, me and Jackie, we were actually leaving Virginia Beach. Her oldest brother was retiring from the Navy as a Master Chief.

And so we were leaving Virginia, and we walk her through the airport. So if anybody knows my wife, I mean, if you've followed my wife throughout the years, and if you know her personally, you know she's a huge introvert. She's just not the type of person who walks up to strangers or talks to strangers. I mean, people come

in our house, Jackie's not going to say a word. She's going to observe and kind of just be to herself. That's how she is. And so we walk into the airport and I saw two Jehovah's Witnesses at a stand. And so I know I'm very familiar with the Watchtower organization, Jehovah's Witnesses at a stand. And so I know I'm very familiar with the Watchtower organization, Jehovah's Witness organization, and I know that when you see them in public, they're not allowed to actually kind of like talk to you. You have to talk to them first.

And so, by law, right? And so I say, Jackie, I'm about to go talk to the Jehovah's Witnesses. And so she say, okay, I'm about to go get us something to eat, peace. And so she said, okay, I'm about to go get us something to eat, peace. And so she threw me the deuces and she went and got something to eat and so I mean, I expected her to do that. I knew she was going to come with me.

So I went over there, had like a 30 minute conversation with the Jehovah's Witnesses. It was really respectful. I just kind of wanted to, you know, plant some seeds, ask some questions that I feel like nobody never asked them, you know, connecting to my YouTube channel, connecting to resources that might reveal truth to them, all the things. So I leave the Jehovah's Witnesses, go to the restaurant in the airport where Jackie was at. And when I get to the, to the restaurant, you know, Jackie has her head bowed with the waitress

and they're praying together. And I'm like, whoa, what's happening here? And so like one, I'm shocked because Jackie, she disciples women in our local church. She's really good with like situations, with like situations I brought to her, but like in the public sphere, she's never like really talking to people like that.

So I'm like, how did this happen? And so, you know, what was crazy, after they got done praying, Jackie said, the waitress asked her who she ordering food for. She said, I'm ordering food for my husband. She said, where's your husband? He said, he's over there talking to some Jehovah's Witnesses. And the waitress responded and said, I used to be a Jehovah's Witness and they excommunicated me and I've been done with religion every since.

And so Jackie said, I just felt like the Lord was like literally opening the door for me to give her the gospel. And so I put that example in my book, and I talk about that example everywhere I go, because evangelism doesn't always have to look the same. Yeah. Right?

Notice how God, notice how like Jackie didn't pursue a conversation, but she didn't avoid one when God laid on her lap. Like she didn't avoid it, right? She was receptive to it. She was obedient. And I think that God will give us all opportunities to be evangelistic if we are just, if we're just obedient, right? And so I tell people all the time I was discipling this young man who became friends with another guy

I was discipling. And this guy that I was discipling, he's a lot like me. He's a lot like me. He's the type of person that'll go out and talk to strangers. And so that's the reason why he started cutting my hair. That's the reason why I started discipling. So That's the reason why I started to siphon. So he's my barber and my disciple.

Right? And so I started to siphon this other dude that became friends with him and he came amongst us and he's just not like the other guy. And he's not the type of person that will go up to strangers. But he felt this pressure to be like me and to be like his friend. Because he's seen how much my discipleship has helped his friend become a better evangelist and stuff like that.

And I told him, I said, you got to understand that God is not calling everybody to go out and catch the fish. Some people are called to prepare it. Some people are called to clean it. Some people are called to serve it. And it's all evangelism and it's all making disciples. But everybody, like if God created us all differently,

He doesn't want to use us the same. That's good. And so I had to just free Him of this pressure. That's great. Your evangelism doesn't have to look like mine. Yeah. God is going to use you how He has uniquely made you. Yeah. doesn't have to look like mine. God is going to use you how he has uniquely made you. And

I think that was one of the main messages that I wanted to preach to the book, that God has made you in a very, very unique way. Every single person is made in such a unique way. And I think that we look at certain people online and we say, I have to be used like this. And it's like, no, you have to be used, but you are not supposed to be used like that. You're supposed to be used the way God wants you to be used. You know, and so I think that's one of the main goals. And so I see Jackie right now, like, you know,

being evangelistic with her person who does her eyebrows and person who does her hair. And I'm like, I love it, you know? But you know, it wasn't always like that. And so God is going to use you how He is uniquely made you. That's great. That's such good advice. Cause I think a lot of people are looking at other people

and thinking like, oh, when I get that platform, then I'll be used like that. And it's like, they're not doing what they can be doing here now with what they have, with how God made them. And the thing is, this is what I love about these examples. Like you talk about Jackie's ministry as with her hairdresser, with the girl that does her eyebrows, with the waitress. It's not talking about your podcast tour,

which was amazing and did minister to a lot of people and is a way of ministry and evangelism. But like, it's more than just that. It's all of it. It's life. It's who you talk to It's it whoever you're talking to is you know an opportunity to grow closer to God the last thing I want to Talk to you about because I was like, oh everybody's here. This is so good Okay, okay. Okay. We got two more questions

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Don't miss this guys. That's helixsleep.com slash Sadie for 25% off site wide plus two free dream pillows with your mattress purchase. That's helixsleep.com slash Sadie. The last thing I want to ask you was about being okay with being seed planters, because I was like, that is so good. And you were talking about how like,

it doesn't always have to end with like an alter call moment or I got saved for you to feel like you did your job. Which I think just takes the pressure off of any, if this being any kind of performance, you know, it's you doing what you really feel called to do. Can you speak to that a little bit? Yeah, I think one of the biggest hurdles that we have to get over when we do evangelism

is this stave your complex. I think that we, I think it is very, it is very easy to fall into the mold of trying to be the Holy Spirit and trying to convert people and trying to find pride. Like, I led this many people to the Lord today and I'm, you know, I led this, and I do think that, you know, scripture does have a place for that. Like in Acts it says that 5,000 people came to the Lord that day. And I do think that God,

you know, has a place for that at times. But I do think that God definitely wants to raise up a generation of evangelists that's just okay with being seed planters. That's just okay with like planting seeds and allowing those seeds to water. And one of the examples that I gave in my book And one of the examples that I gave in my book, one of the stories that I gave in my book was, the first time I heard the gospel in the house church that I was telling you guys about, I didn't even put this in the book.

You guys getting like an exclusive. I wish I would have put it in the book. I didn't put this in the book. Part two. Yeah, right. I think I said this in a couple of interviews, but I didn't put this in the book. Part two. Yeah, right? I think I said this in a couple of interviews, but I didn't put it in the book. That same pastor who I heard give the gospel when I was 15, in 2019, me and Jackie was on a poetry tour called the Poets in Armitour, and that same pastor came to our event. And he sat in the front row, and I'm doing my poem and I look down

and I see him and I was like, whoa. And so after the event, I went down, gave him a hug and he has tears in his eyes and he said, every time I would share the gospel when he's in a parking lot or when you guys were at my house, I felt like you guys didn't hear me and just to see you guys on stage giving the gospel with your wife in very creative ways has blessed me. And I told him, I said, the first time I heard you give the gospel, I said, I did not become a Christian that day. I said, but I became keenly aware of my sin.

And I said, and God started to pursue me. And I said, it wasn't until a friend of mine died where somebody came along and watered the seed that you planted. And he just began to cry. And I tell that story a lot because what if that man thought that his preaching was just in vain all those years? Right? Like, God is going to use multiple people in our salvation story.

And so a lot of times we won't be around to see somebody's conversion, but that does not mean that we did not play a pivotal part in their salvation. That God is going to strategically use people to plant seeds, to plant seeds, to plant seeds. And that was the testimony of my life. Like if I didn't hear the gospel when I was 15, I didn't stop breaking in cars after that. I didn't stop sleeping around after that. But I became keenly aware of my sin. I became keenly aware that God was watching me.

I became keenly aware that my sin was offensive to a holy and righteous God. And I wasn't comfortable with sin after that day. I wasn't comfortable with sin after that day. I wasn't comfortable. And so I do think that that's the role of an evangelist. It is to make the hard soil soft. Like I think that's a lot of our role is to, it's this hard, like people are hard in the streets. And so my goal is not to see somebody become a Christian.

My goal is to kind of like break up that solid ground. And God is sovereign. God is holy. God will send somebody to plant the right seed. Right? So I do think that if we look at ourselves as seed planters, people who makes the soil soft, I do think that it will shape, reshape the way we think about evangelism and even apologetics.

And I think that it will be helpful for our generation. That's so good. Gosh, that is so good. Everything you say, I'm like, you're gonna have to rewind that to just listen to that whole answer again, because it's so rich and so good. So thank you for that.

Did you like it? Yeah, I'm sorry. Sorry for long-winded. Oh my gosh. No, it's the best. That's what podcasts are for. That's why we have so much time, is to be long-winded so we can get all of it.

It's so good. And we can end with this, because I thought you said this in your interview, which I thought it was so good, but you said, don't get people the truth in a garbage bag. And you talked about how they didn't reject the truth, they rejected the way that you gave it to them. What would you say to the person who maybe,

because you talked about serving the gospel on a silver platter and not in a garbage bag, what would you say to the person who maybe equates seminary or more theological things with, you know, more, more theological things with the silver platter versus, you know, just- Like a testimony. Yeah, versus just, you know, the blind man who, look, I don't know who it was, but all I know is that was blind, now I see, or the woman at the well. How do you, because, you know,

Matthew 28, we're all called to be evangelists, we're all called to go make disciples and tell them about Jesus. So what would you say the person who thinks, I need to go do seminary and no more theological stuff to maybe think that that's what it looks like to serve the gospel on a silver platter, but most of the time it looks like you just sharing your testimony. Wow.

That's cool. So as you guys probably can tell, I'm a storyteller. That's how God kind of speaks to me. If you guys don't know who Brian Dye is, look him up. He is, I think, a hero in the faith. He doesn't like public attention. So that's the reason why a lot of people don't know who he is. But a lot of people who actually do ministry know he is.

And he started a discipleship making conference in Chicago years ago. And he was my pastor. He was the one who married me and my wife. In this discipleship making conference, he would have like Matt Chandler, John Piper, Lecrae, all these people come and teach. And he was the first person who began to cultivate the evangelism gift in me. And I remember, you know, it was a three-day conference, one year, it was all of these heavyweights like Dr. Tony Evans, John Piper, Matt Chandler, Lecrae, all of these people teaching and I had did a workshop on evangelism. And on the last day of the conference, it wasn't in the college, it was in the streets, we would have an outdoor concert and all the hip hop Christian rappers, they would do an

outdoor concert. But what happened was we would go out in the streets in teams and evangelize in the neighborhood until people from all around the country was on the south side of the west side of Chicago evangelizing, trying to apply what they just learned at this conference in the streets. Long story short, Brian died, that was the first year, it was years ago. It was the first year he put me in charge over the evangelism and I was so terrified.

Not only was I terrified, I felt very disqualified. I was like, one, I did not go to seminary. I do not know all these things. I was so intimidated. A workshop is one thing, but like, and what was crazy is all of these people that were on my team were in seminary. And I was like, whoa. And so I went to Brian and I said, Brian, I said, I don't feel equipped.

And he said, you are just a man for the job. And he said, when you go out there, you're going to see the day why you are more equipped than a lot of these people out here. And I went out there and I basically kind of instructed them on how to give the gospel in the hood, right? Because I'm from these areas in Chicago. And you know the person that gave, the people that gave me the most problem out there on the streets? It was the seminary students. I was gonna say, yup. That's the same for me.

It was the seminary students. It was, oh my goodness. I don't want people to hear me say, I'm shaming seminary. Cause I actually went to seminary. I didn't finish, but I'm starting back next year. I actually went to seminary. I didn't finish, but I'm starting back next year. My wife is in seminary. I think the Bible tells us that his people perish because of a lack of knowledge. Knowledge is good. So I'm not shunning education, but I

do think that if we find our identity in the information we know and not the God that we know, we will treat people like projects and not image bearers. And I think that's what I saw that whole day. And a lot of these people went out and they were so eager to teach people what they have learned. You can tell that they really didn't know people. They just knew information. And I remember this, I'll never forget this, this guy, these two guys, they were trying

to teach these people about some lofty theological term like substitutional atonement or something. I don't know. I forget what it was. And this old church mother, they came to the conference year after year, she interrupted them. She said, can I, can I, she very respectful. She said, can I step in? And these guys, they were street guys.

Some hardened criminals. She said, you're hurting, baby. She said, why are you hurting? And she said, he said, I'm not hurting. And then his friend said, bro, you know you hurting. And then he kind of put his head down and then she was like, tell me what's wrong. And then he wouldn't refuse,

like he refused to tell her. And then his was like, tell me what's wrong. And then he refused to tell her, and then his friend said, his brother was killed last month. Well. And then she said, can you come and give me a hug? And then she began to pray for him. And then when she began to pray for him, it's like this little boy came out of him. I can't explain it.

And this hardened criminal is literally weeping on this woman's shoulder. And then right after that, she gave him the gospel and sent them on his way. Right? And so like, she just did something that these seminary students couldn't do. And so I do think that knowledge is good. But I do think that God wants us to be in tune with people. He wants us to listen to stories. He wants us to be in tune with people. He wants us to listen to stories.

He wants us to be investigative. And I also think that He wants us to, in a lovingly way, apply the information we know that in a way that people can receive it. And so I do think that, like, knowledge is good, but we just have to, we have to make sure we don't give it to people in a garbage bag or on a dignified platter.

That's so good. I remember early on when I started speaking, someone said to me, like, that, I don't know it to people in a garbage bag and on a dignified platter. That's so good. I remember early on when I started speaking, someone said to me, I don't know where it is. They said, knowledge puffs up, but love pours out. And they were like, yes, continue to grow, continue to learn. Absolutely. But love pours out.

So don't get too puffed up in what you begin to know, that you're not pouring out with love. And I was like, that was a really good word for someone to speak at the very beginning of that journey for me. And I was like, that was a really good word for someone to speak at the very beginning of that journey for me. And so Preston, this is so good. Honestly, y'all who are listening, this is a long podcast with so many rich things

that we got to talk about. So many good nuggets, so much good advice, but there is so much more in this book. If you do not follow Preston in their podcasts, you've got to go follow along. They have so much that they put out there that, like I said, you're going to learn from what they say, absolutely, but also just the way that they live their lives. So thank you so much for being who you are and living the life that you live. We're both so inspired and thanks for coming on the podcast. Man, thank you guys for having me, man. God bless y'all.