WHOA That's Good Podcast - I Refused to Kneel During the National Anthem & I Have No Regrets | Sadie, Christian, & Jonathan Isaac

Episode Date: January 29, 2025

Jonathan Isaac isn't here to call out anyone for having strong beliefs, but when his NBA Orlando Magic teammates wanted to kneel during the national anthem, Jonathan knew he couldn't. He explains to Sadie and Christian why he literally took a stand and what the days and weeks were like after, how he was able to keep relationships on his team while playing together, and if he has any regrets. Jonathan shares about his childhood when his family moved from the Bronx to Naples, FL, and his struggles with identity — and eventually crippling anxiety — and how he's learned to manage it with God's help. This Episode of WHOA That's Good is Sponsored By: https://drinkag1.com/whoa — New subscribers get a FREE $76 gift when you sign up. You’ll get a Welcome Kit, a bottle of D3K2 AND 5 free travel packs in your first box! https://sadiepens.com — Stock up on Mr. Pen Bible journaling supplies today! https://www.drinklmnt.com/whoa — Try the new LMNT Hot AND get your FREE LMNT Sample Pack with any LMNT purchase! -

What's up, boy that's good fam. Happy Wednesday everybody. I hope you're having a great week, but per usual, y'all, it is about to get so much better because I have Christian on the podcast with me today and we get to interview someone that is so awesome. His story is so incredible. You probably already know this person, but we're going to get to know is so awesome. His story is so incredible. You probably already know this person, but we're gonna get to know him more today.

We get to have NBA star, husband, father, Christ follower, founder of United, Jonathan Isaac on the podcast. Welcome. Thank you so much for having me. This is legit like a blessing. You know, you guys are amazing, and I'm really glad to be here to talk with you guys. Thank you.

Seriously. I'm grateful you're here, man. Right back at you. Thank you so much for being here. This is awesome. We are pumped to get to know you more. And I get to just dive into your story a little bit, preparing for you to be on.

And I'm so inspired. So I can't wait to talk more. But before we get into all that, I have to ask you the question I ask everyone who comes on the Will It Skip podcast for the first time And if you aren't prepared for this, it will come out of left field But the question is Jonathan, what's the best piece of advice that you've ever been given? Yes, I was I was I was very prepared for this

So I got the drop and I was thinking You know, there's so many different things but I was like what is something that has replayed in my mind for a really long time? And there was two, but there's one that really profound and it says what you are not changing, you're choosing. Wow, that's good. And that one always stings because I think for me, it's like you grow up and you have trauma, you have all of these things that are part of the way that you are, and there's a lot of times

where it can feel like it's somebody else's fault or not completely your responsibility to tend to or to try to change or to try to work on. And a lot of times we look at God like, God, this is how I am, this is how you made me, this is the things that I've been through. But it's like, when we really get to the nitty gritty of it and kind of look at ourselves in the mirror,

it's hard to come to that realization that, man, what I'm not actively putting into process and trying to strategize and kind of just going, being intentional about changing, I am choosing those outcomes, even when they are detrimental to myself or I've justified them or have kind of sat in those conclusions, I'm choosing that.

And yeah. That is good. That is really good. That is so good. That hurts. I love how you said, yeah, that one's staying. That does. I was thinking about this today because Christian is so,

he loves working out, he's disciplined and that, and I have gotten off the train for a while and I need to get back to it. And when you said that, I was like, man, that's so true. But it's hard to make a change, because you get in the pattern of it, you get in the habit of it. And that's a small physical example.

Obviously, what you mentioned is a lot more, an emotional thing is hard to change, but anything, it's hard to, if you're going one way like go the other. It takes actual intentionality and hard work and being uncomfortable and but I love that advice because it's so true because I'm like I'm choosing this and I know it will make me feel better. I just need to do it. And so you just you just gave me some good advice that I needed to hear. Tomorrow's my day back. She receives it.

Tomorrow's my day back. Yes, tomorrow's the day. Tomorrow's my day back. Tomorrow's the day. And start small, start small. Yes. Get the baby steps in. Hold me to it.

You're not gonna do that on Saturday. Oh, it is Saturday. Okay, Monday. No, just kidding. Saturday. See, he knows you. That's how it works. Saturday.

The week is not gonna roll around. I know. I'm too nice to myself. You might change it on Monday. Oh, it's my rest. Okay, yeah. Maybe knows you. That's how it works. Saturday. The weekend's not going to roll around. I know. I'm too nice to myself. You might change it on Monday. It's my rest. OK, yeah. Maybe on Monday. Monday's the day.

OK, Jonathan, people know you from all kinds of different things, obviously, and then being an incredible basketball player and different things that you've stood for, been a part of, created. But we really want to just get to know who you are as a person and your story. So bring us back. What was your upbringing like?

My upbringing, my upbringing started in Bronx, New York. I lived in Bronx, New York till I was 10. But New York was, it was interesting. It was like, at the time, when I look back at it now, there was parts of it that were pretty dysfunctional just because of the neighborhood that we lived in and some of the things that we had to go through. My parents were amazing.

They worked super hard. My dad had us in church all the time trying to get us out of the environment that was kind of around us. But it was just kind of New York culture, to see things and to be around things. I would say we were pretty naive kids because of the way that we grew up. But because my parents work so hard, this is one quick story. So my dad was a manager at McDonald's and my mom worked at the hospital. And so she would work all day, all night.

It seemed like, you know, the night shift and my dad will work the night shift as well. So we would have to, and this sounds crazy when I say it but for us as kids it wasn't that bad but now when I look back it's like oh you know that's rough and I could see how some of the stuff like that could shape you as you grow up but we would have to spend the night at the McDonald's in order for my dad to take us to school in the morning. But for us kids it was like we're sleeping at the McDonald's like this was it was everything right. It us kids, it was like, we're sleeping at the McDonald's. Like this was, it was everything, right? It was like, yes, it was, it was a two storey McDonald's and we could see all the people coming in late at night. You had some characters, you had some weird people, but it was, it was fun. It was just, you know, four brothers

and my sister and we just made it a time. But I would say that I'd say for me growing up, I was a pretty, you know, quiet, you know, kind of a observant for me growing up, I was a pretty quiet, kind of observant kid. I was a little more reserved into myself, but at the same time, I had friends. I liked to play sports. And then my parents ended up splitting up when I was 10, and I moved from Bronx, New York to Naples, Florida. And that's when the kind of the crux of my story

started to begin, where I started to have some issues and some struggles, and that ultimately led to all of this. Wow. That's crazy. You know it's so cool that you said that about looking back, you can see that that was hard, but in the moment it was fun. And I think that just speaks to so many parents out there who are going through hard situations. It really is how you shape it for your kids.

Right. That's what they're going to experience because sleeping in a McDonald's, like that could have been really hard and the way that your parents portrayed that, it could have made it feel like y'all were really roughing it. But to y'all, the way that it was presented is like, we get to sleep in a McDonald's, you know? And like, I feel like so much of life is like just your perspective of it and how you approach it.

Right, how you see it. That's so cool that, you know, you had that memory. I think that's awesome. And then moving to Florida was probably a big pivot from Bronx to Naples. Yeah, huge. A little bit different. What was your experience like once you got to Florida?

I know you said you kind of wrestled with some stuff. What'd that look like? It was rough. It was rough because it's just a complete culture shock. We went from, just frankly, New York was predominantly black and Hispanic, and Naples, Florida was as white as could be. And me and my brothers and a few of the kids,

I think it was like 13 kids out of our school at the time was African American, everybody else was white. And so it was just difficult to fit in. And what happened with me was I was trying to fit in and trying to make friends and horse playing was something that I was so used to doing. And that was how you made friends in the Bronx. You fight, you rough house and okay, you're my friend. But it wasn't like that in Naples. They weren't receiving it.

They weren't receiving it. And so I got in trouble quite a bit. But for me it was innocent in the sense that I when I was bigger than everybody else so what I would do is I would grab kids ankles and I would drag them. But for me it was like, y'all we're having so much fun, they're laughing. But I was getting reported and I had this real

that kind of ingrained memory. And this is kind of where some of my issues started. I got in trouble, they took me to the principal's office. They call my mom, my mom comes to the school, she has to leave work, and the principal is like, we can't have your son endangering the lives of our students. My gosh.

And my mom is like, yo, he's like, you know, he's just a kid. He's no we're transitioning like but for the first time it was like a reality to where it's like I didn't see myself the way everybody else saw me. And so it began this like internal by kind of facing myself and kind of looking at myself going you're not cool. You're not're not, you don't fit in, you're not all these things. And it started this kind of anxiety in me of just like, okay, I need to start working,

I need to work hard for the approval of everybody around me. And it set me on this really disastrous path, honestly, but part of the reason why I'm here right now where it was like my goal and my mind from then on was when I go to school, how do I make friends? How do I get kids to like me? So I became the class clown. I became the kid that tried to make everybody laugh. And it was really just this deep-seated yearning

for I need to be loved. I need to be seen. I need to be embraced. And it was really hard to come by. Man, that's so real. Do you remember how tall you were when you were 10? No, but if I showed you a baby picture when I was two years old, you would cry.

It was like I was five. Oh my gosh. I was big, I was big. Yeah, I was pretty tall. So when you moved to Florida, how did you get, like how did kind of, you know, wrestling with that anxiety, how did that kind of transition to basketball and when you kind of started to play basketball

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to get this offer. That's drinkag1.com slash woe to start your new year off on a healthier note. Well, what was interesting is that basketball became like an antidote where it was like, where I'm trying to figure out, okay, well, how can I get these kids to like me and be my friend?

Once I started to play basketball a little bit and I started to get better at it, it was like, oh, this is the ticket, this is the key. And so, right, and so I became the number one player in the state of Florida. I had, all the girls wanted to hang out with me, all the guys wanted me to be on their teams. We were a really great travel team.

That was kind of how I dealt with it. Well, that's how I masked it, is the right way to say it. I kind of developed this persona of, I'm the cool guy, I got everything together, but behind the scenes, I was just a terrified kid of people finding out how terrified I was. And so that basketball persona was like this, this know, this thing that I could put in front of everybody behind the scenes, I was broken.

And it came out all the time in ways that I couldn't manage. And so in high school, I remember just, you know, having these episodes of just bawling my eyes out before games because it was like, I'm about to walk into this moment that is either going to reveal to everybody else how afraid I am and they're going to see it. They're going to see the chink in my armor and it was just this high anxiety moment and it led all through high school to really the I guess the explosion of it was when I got to Florida State. So I'm the number one player in the state of Florida. I'm going to Florida State. So I'm the number one player in the state of Florida. I'm going to Florida State. Now I'm their highest recruit in years here for the school. So everybody's expecting me to be this

guy. You know, you're the big man on campus and I just wasn't ready for it. And even though I tried to speak like I was ready for it, I tried to show up like I was ready for it behind the scenes, my body knew that I wasn't ready for it. And so I would have panic attacks So think of you know, think of the mental space of I'm the guy and you know Everybody's on the team is kind of looking at me We had some other great guys on the team too So it wasn't like it was all on me But I was definitely somebody that they were like you're gonna you're gonna be the one that's gonna lead us, you know To kind of great things and the tournament everything and so I started having these episodes at breakfast time where I'd be eating and I would just freeze

and I couldn't move. Couldn't do anything, couldn't eat, and my teammates would be like, one of my teammates would be like, you okay? And we'd kind of like break out of it. I'd be like, yeah, I'm good, I'm good, I'm good. And then we had this kind of big moment where I'm,

it's me and a teammate and we are in like study hall and I have like a pass out episode where I don't know what's happening, like ambulance needs to come and get me. The school, the team tried to keep it really under wraps. My family didn't know back home and they were like, yo, you know, kind of what's going on? And that was the first time I had an opportunity

to talk to somebody. And they had me go see a psychologist, right? And I'm sitting with this guy and he's saying to me like, what could possibly be wrong with you? Like these are his words, this is the therapist. He's like, I'm sure you do fine with the ladies. I'm like, you're gonna be a top 10 pick in the draft? Like what is going on?

And I was just like, I don't know. And so started anxiety medication. So number one player in the state of know. And so, started anxiety medication. So, number one player in the state of Florida, at Florida State, on anxiety medication. One trainer knows, one teammate knows, and the coach knows, and I'm just trying to get through the season. And it was this weird thing where

the first half of games, I would play awful. I got air ball my shots. But we created this kind of system where at halftime, the team would go in one direction, and I would go in another direction to like this room by myself with one of the assistant coaches and that trainer that knew about it, and I would just cry.

Cry, and then for some reason, all the anxiety would just leave me once I was able to kind of get all that emotion off of me. And I go into the second half and I ball out. Wow. I play like myself and you know, played into the point of being the number six pick in the draft. That's crazy.

It's like so cool we're talking about this because we've been talking so much about identity and anxiety recently and these are like the two things merging in your story and it's so interesting because I did this poll the other day and I was like, what do you typically find your identity in? And it was on Instagram, and so there's like a million different things, but ultimately what one of the common threads of what people found their identity in

was what they found a sense of confidence in. So it's like, I find my identity in this because I'm good at it, or I found my identity in this because I was confident in that version of me, or whatever it was. And then so many too attach that with like, what people thought of me, what people saw me as, who people thought I was.

And I think so many people make that mistake of like trying to find their identity and security in what they feel confident in, in their own strength and own ability, AKA like basketball, if you're really good at basketball, or whatever your job title is, or whatever, you know, whatever cool thing that you got going on for you. It's like, I am confident in this,

so I'm just gonna put like my whole identity in it. And then the problem is with that, is that then your identity is attached to something that is performance-based and it's all on your ability to muster up a good performance for you to always feel value and always feel worth. And then it's like, if people don't perceive you as doing good or people don't perceive you as crushing it, then like you, where is your identity? Like it perceive you as crushing it, then like you, where is your identity? Like it's, it crashes, it fades. And I think that like so many people do that though.

It's like in the search for identity, they just attach it to whatever they can just find a little bit of assurance in or a little bit of confidence in. And that's why, like when people say, you know, I wish my identity was in Jesus or I want it to be, I don't even know what that means for it to be in Christ. It's like, no, when your identity is in Christ, the, it's not just saying that to say it and it sounds good. It's like actually forming it to be that because,

and it's the greatest thing you can do for your life because it's not on you. It's like you don't have to perform. You get to show up as you are, and yet you have this identity base in something that was done for you, paved the way for you. God is your father. You are adopted.

You are a child. Like it's like this, the greatest gift ever to have assurance and something that's not all on you to perform. But your story represents most everybody's story in whatever capacity they live their life in. When you, you talked about like going to church as a young kid, and I know how strong your faith is now,

but in this time of your life, where was faith in the picture of everything? Yeah, great, great question. It was, growing up for me, it was just traditional. Like I didn't understand that there was a reality to a relationship with God, that it was like, you know, tangible, God knows me and loves me and has did this miraculous,

great thing just in order to be connected to me. I didn't understand it that way. It was just kind of rules. And, you know, this is what we were supposed to do because, you know, God is important and, you know, no slight to my parents, they were believers, we were in church all the times, but it just wasn't, it wasn't put on the proper platter,

in my opinion, where it was like, this is a God who loves you and desires to be in community with you. And so for me, it was always just tradition. We went because we were supposed to. We were at an amazing church and youth group when I got to Naples, Florida. And I started to learn a little bit really more of a foundation of

the gospel there and Had some great times but once basketball once I started to get that love From basketball from the people around me It was it took over my life in a sense of where I was like This is this is where I'm getting that love that I that I feel like I need and so. And so Christianity was just something that was in my back pocket. But there were still seeds though. There were seeds of understanding where if things weren't going right on the court, I'm going to switch all my music up and just listen to Christian music.

And I'm going to put the Drake away. I'm going to put the future away and I'm just going to listen to my Christian stuff. And then once I started playing again, I justed back in to do what everybody else is doing. But once I got to the NBA, my mind was gone. I was set on, I want to experience everything that the NBA life has to offer. Really just in following the people that were around me. When you were at FSU, because I feel like sometimes we can convince ourselves of this, but do you feel like, you're number one player in Florida, you're projected to be a top 10 pick, do you feel like you had kind of convinced yourself of like, when this happens, I feel like this anxiety

is gonna go away, or do you feel like, maybe you thought it was gonna be heightened if that happened, or do you feel like, playing your freshman season at Florida State, you kind of had convinced yourself of, well, when I get drafted, whenever I get all this success and fame in the NBA, I won't be as anxious as I feel now.

I would say, yeah, it was like, I was always expecting that there was going to be a moment where it broke, where it was like, and it was so interesting where it was like, I couldn't see myself the way other people saw me. So my teammates or people would be like, yo, you're so talented, you're so this, you're so that. And they would see me in this light,

but I was like, I don't see myself that way. And so it was like this thing of like, okay, this game that I just had, where it was like I had 30 points Now I'm good like now I don't have to be afraid anymore not to be nervous anymore and the next game will be coming up and This game is over and I'm already thinking about the next game and oh shoot now. I just played good this game I'm gonna so it was like it was like this thing of like I'm waiting for this moment of this grandiose thing

Like I'm gonna play so well that I'll never have to be anxious again or something's going to happen. And it just never happened. I was always already like my teammates are celebrating. The coaches, the fans are celebrating. And I'm like, oh, but I got a game in three days that that's going to be the time that I'm exposed and everybody's going to know that I'm actually terrified. So it'll keep me up, keep me up and just be this kind of this fear

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I struggled with anxiety so much back in the day and same thing. It's like you think, okay, well, once I get past this, but it's like, yeah, and then there's going to be another thing right around the corner that you're going to have to get past. And the secret is like, yeah, and then there's gonna be another thing right around the corner that you're gonna have to get past. And the secret is like, life's always gonna be like that. Like there's always gonna be something that's going to make you anxious in the sense of like, it's gonna feel bigger than what you think you're capable of doing or whatever. And I think that's such a good question, kids.

I think people either put like a false hope in something like, oh, I'm gonna feel it when this happens, or they have no hope in it and think, I'm just gonna live like this forever. And either one's bad because the false hope in something like, oh, I'm gonna feel it when this happens, or they have no hope in it and think, I'm just gonna live like this forever. And either one's bad because the false hope is not gonna help you. And then the coping with it with the fact that you're always gonna have it,

it's like, no, there's so much better for you in life. It's like when I get married, I'm not gonna struggle with this. Or when I have kids, I won't feel shame from. So it's like, but you're still, those things usually don't ever, you try to convince yourself of that, but it never actually can sustain

whatever you think it will. Not in your own strength, not in your own victories for sure. So when you get to the NBA, you said you were like, all right, it's my time, I'm gonna enjoy my life, live it up, what did that season for you look like? And by the way, how long ago was this? So back when you were at Florida State.

So back when I was at Florida State was 2017. Okay, cool. I just think it's so cool to see timelines in people's life because that person, when you refer back to, probably feels so different than the person you are now. Like married kids being who you are, different than the person you are now, like married kids being who you are speaking to the things you speak to, but it's like that's not that long ago. That's like, that's so cool though. Okay, so you get drafted, you go to the NBA,

things go a little wild. Yeah, so really just being what I was talking about was I want to experience the NBA life. I want to be doing what all these guys are doing. And I did it. And I remember so many moments where it was just like a realization that this is not who I am. I would be at the club, get home three o'clock in the morning and look to myself in the mirror and say, what are you doing? It wasn't this thing of like, okay, I need to turn to Christ. But it was like, this doesn't fit who I am, even though I don't know who I am. I don't know what I'm doing. I'm just following and doing what everybody else is doing. But it was it was easy for me to realize that I'm also trying to fit this mold that I'm just not. Yeah. And so, so everything starts to go crazy around the time. I'm in Orlando. I got drafted

I'm you know, the preseason is going on and It really is a long story and it's a lot to share and I'm not trying to do a shameless plug But it is all in the book like that like the intricacies of it Plug Check out the book why I stand and it'll give you all the nitty-gritty. But if I'm going to summarize this, I meet a man on an elevator and he says to me, young man, I can tell you how to be great. And I said, how? And he said, you have to know Jesus. And I said, man, I'm a Christian. I know Jesus. Leave me alone. But during that time, it was right around that time,

I had got invited to a chapel. So in the NBA, 60 minutes before every game, there's a team chapel and one of my teammates invited me. I go, yeah, I'll go to chapel with you. And the pastor over the chapel says, we're going to read from Luke 6 46. And that verse says, why do you call me Lord, Lord and not do what I say? And it like smacked me in my face. I was like, that is me. You know, and what's funny is I had never like knew Jesus to be like confrontational like that. Like up in your face, like, oh, why do you call me Lord and not do what I say? Like, what's the deal? And expecting an answer.

Like, why do you call me Lord and not do what I say? Like, what's the deal? And expecting an answer, like, why do you do that? And I was like, and the question just really stuck with me. And I started, I was thinking about it during the game, I was thinking about it after the game, and I had kind of came to this conclusion in my life where I was like, look, I'm either gonna drop the whole Christian label altogether and just kind of live my life,

or I'm gonna actually try to figure this thing out. Like, what is actually going on? So much to the point where I started researching Christian apologetics like crazy. So William Lane Craig, John Lennox, Frank Turek, Robbie Zacharias, all these different people I'm binge watching to kind of to learn. And it got me right up to the cliff. It didn't make me jump off, but it got me right up to the cliff It didn't make me jump off but it got me right where I was like this this doesn't make any sense This has to be real, but I didn't quite understand it so I meet that guy on an elevator and he says to me I can tell you how to be great and he said and you've got to know Christ and

From that moment is what I understand of God ordering your footsteps because there are so many Just crazy things that happen of meeting people in certain places and all this weird stuff. But long story short, that man is my pastor today. That's so crazy. The man on the elevator. The man on the elevator is my pastor today. And what he taught me truly is just about the unconditional love of God, that the love of God, the love of Christ, and that's what started to really change my life.

And I started to learn that I didn't have to make a basket, I didn't have to score a point, I didn't have to do anything, I didn't have to work for love. And it's still something that I have to go back to daily, where I'm like, John, you don't have to work. Yeah. Right here in this moment, in your dysfunction, in your fear, in your anxiety, in your sin, in your, you are loved. And it was just this revolutionary thing for me. And I started going

to the church and the church is where I met my wife. We're on our second kid now, but it was just like, I just started, I just became a sponge. I started learning. I started being mentored by him and my life just started to change. I started to see differences in me and the court and the way that I was approaching the game and there were all these little moments of God having me face fear and one of them was after I started going to the church for a while, I had this weird moment in my room where I felt like something was telling me to preach. So I went over to my mirror and I grabbed the brush and I'm preaching in front of the mirror and I tell

him about it and he's like, well, God's calling you to preach and I'm like, no of the mirror. And I tell him about it, and he's like, well, God's calling you to preach. And I'm like, no, he's not. And so he's like, I think you should preach, and I think you should invite your teammates. And I said to him, I think you're trying to embarrass me. This is what this is about. But these are the same teammates

that I was in the club with just a few months before. So now I'm supposed to go to them and say to them, Hey, I'm going to be preaching at church on Sunday. Yeah, could you please come? And he says to me, look, really only give me your answer after you really pray about it. I pray about it. Of course, God is saying to do it. And I do it. I go to all of them individually. I tell them I'm going to be preaching. None of them showed up. But it was just about mustering the faith to do it. And it was so funny because it was not it wasn't me. It wasn't like me to ever do something like that. So I had all these little moments of standing up and choosing to believe and fight through the fear, fight

through the anxiety. And I understand now that God was preparing me for what he ended up having me to do, but that's where it all started. It started. That is so crazy from a man in the elevator. And like, I mean, we've all been in an elevator. Elevator moments are awkward.

Like you try to like get past him, you know? It's like, hurry up and get there, hoping there's elevator music. But yeah, like I just love that your pastor, before he was your pastor, took the opportunity to ask like a thought-provoking question and that's what's so cool. I love how you said like you never realized

Jesus was confrontational, but Jesus asks so many questions. Like most of his responses are questions. And I think that's so good because he puts it on you. Like, what do you think about this? Where are you at? Like, where's your heart? And then like, you got to think about it.

And I love how you came to the point, it's like, I either drop this, like, cause I'm not just gonna say I'm a Christian, it doesn't mean anything. Like it either drops, or it actually becomes something in my life. And then like, just such a cool turn of events that God would call you,, someone who is used to struggle

with what people thought of you and anxiety, to have to literally go to your teammates who you were just out in the club with. Because that's one of the hardest things for people who have a transformational moment with Christ, is what are the people gonna think about me, who saw me in my past? But like, it's stressful.

I would even say, not to cut you off, but I would say still, I think the, one of the things for me is like, it's still something that I struggle with. You know what I'm saying? But it has, well, one through just, the kind of being in the word and being around people that encourage me,

but one of the things my pastor always tells me is like, you're always gonna have to speak back because the enemy is always going to be lying. It's exactly who he is. He will always lie. Whether you have defeated, whether you overcome anxiety a hundred times, he's gonna lie on the one hundredth and first time. And so it's still something for me where I'm like on a a daily basis, I have to be like, I have to believe the word trust and trust the love of God. And there's so many times still that I don't do it and that I struggle with the fear and

I struggle with the anxiety. But God is still right there. He's still right there and he's still loving me and he's still loving you. And that's what's so hard for us to grasp in our little finite brains. Christian and I have been in a pretty busy season of our life right now from traveling, filming, recording, speaking, and of course raising our family. It is pretty wild, but I'm so thankful. With all the running around we've been doing lately,

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All of it is so good. So be sure to try the new Element Hot. And get your free sample pack with any element purchase at drinkelement.com slash woe. That's drinkelement, D-R-I-N-K-L-M-N-T dot com slash woe. It's so cool that you say that. So like, whenever I first heard about you, I heard about you during, you know, the height of Black Lives Matter and the COVID year and everything was so crazy and you made a decision

to like stand and I want to hear about that. But it was like, so like I heard about you and I was like, oh man, he like got to see in like that you're a strong believer in different things. And then like fast forward to now, and someone was like, oh, you should have Jonathan Hasen in your podcast. And I was referring back, I was like, oh, was that the guy who did this? And yeah, I've seen all that.

It's so cool. But in my mind, my perspective of you, because all I had seen was this controversial moment. And you had this thing that you did out of like your, which I wanna hear like why, but it was just interesting because I was like, wow, okay, it was a little bit controversial. And then when I was seeing about you coming on the podcast,

I was like, I wonder if I'm gonna ask him about that. But then after I like began to dive into your story and hear that you're someone who actually like has really struggled with anxiety and like really struggled with what people thought of you. Then I was like, boy, this takes on a whole nother depth because I'm like, okay, this isn't someone who's a controversial person to be controversial.

This isn't someone who does something to be different than the crowd. If I struggle with anxiety, I struggle with people think of me, I know when you make a decision like that, it's not because you want to. It's not because you're like, let's make a move No, it's like something in you like you feel conviction The Lord said something and out of obedience you do it

And so I feel like that made me so much more intrigued whenever I realized that what you struggle with So take us to that moment. Like why why did you make the decision that you made? Yeah, no, of course, of course, of course. Well, I appreciate you saying that because I feel like I did experience that a lot afterwards where some people were like, well, we don't want to hear from you or kind of talk to you because of how controversial it was.

And a lot of people never got the back story. And that's a part of why I think the book was so successful was because people got to understand it. This isn't just some guy that, I'm strong in my faith, I know Christ, and I'm doing this self-righteous thing. It was like, nah, this is some scared kid who felt convicted in a way and tried to,

in his best way, do it in a humble fashion. But it honestly, it's so hard to put it into words how scary and how, you know, just trying that time was for me personally, and just everything that was going on. So you know, you guys know how crazy it was. And first off, how tragic the death of George Floyd was, the rise of the Black Lives Matter movement and organization. And for me, honestly, it was always about a solution. It was me saying, look, I see the problem. I see the issue. I saw what happened to George Floyd. What

is going to be the thing that brings change? And so one of the things that went on was my pastor was preaching. This was right before we were going to go into the bubble, before there was any talk about kneeling or anything like that. And he was preaching, it was during the time of the riots as well. And he was preaching just saying, you know, through the story of when Peter jumps forward and cuts off the guy's ear. And he was trying to relay that this moment is like that moment in the sense of something has happened, and our response

is going to dictate what follows. And he was saying how Jesus said, if you live by the sword, you'll die by the sword. And he was like, he was mainly talking kind of about black people. And he was like, if we jump into this moment in the same way that that's kind of we're used to or our flesh causes to, then we're not going to have real change or progress or reconciliation or anything like that, that we believe Christ wants, we're not going to have real change or progress or reconciliation or anything like that that we believe Christ wants. We're going to get the same result. And so going into the bubble, I had this mindset of no matter how it comes out, or even if I don't even have to say anything, I didn't know that there was going to be kneeling or anything like that. But it was just like,

I have this different perspective of I'm going to choose love, I'm gonna choose to forgive, I'm gonna choose to lift up the name of Jesus and the gospel and let that be what creates change and reconciliation and everything like that. And it turned out that just the Black Lives Matter movement was not on the same wavelength of that in my opinion. And so, you know, a lot of the conversations that I had with people that were very involved in the movement, I would say things like that. Well, I believe that this moment God is calling us. This is an opportunity, right? This tragedy is an opportunity to bring healing and restoration. Well, this isn't that kind of moment is what I heard a lot of the time. You know, this

is we're not with that right now. And I respected that. And I was like, well, we're just not the same. And that's okay. You know, was like, well, we're just not the same. And that's okay. Even though we share the same skin color. And so I go into the bubble, and we start hearing these murmurs about teams are gonna be kneeling for the national anthem. And I was like, oh, Lord.

I was like, oh, goodness. And so we have a whole team meeting with all the officials and they say pretty much, hey, we're gonna lead this decision on you guys because we were gonna play the next day. And all the teams that played before us already knelt, so it was like that time was coming, it's our decision. So we get into this players only meeting

and everybody's like, look, we don't have a choice. There's no choice to be made here. If we don't kneel, then it is going to look like we are not With everything that's going on right now It doesn't matter. Let's just wrap this meeting up. Okay, we're done At the end of the meeting one of my teammates turned towards me and I still to this day Don't know why he did that, but he said Jonathan. What are you gonna do? And it was like you could hear a pin drop and I was like fellas

And it was like, you could hear a pin drop. And I was like, fellas, I'm not gonna kneel and I'm not gonna wear the t-shirt. And it was like chaos erupted. Oh my gosh, here we go. And I've told this story so many times, but every time I tell it, it's like so real to me because it was just what was happening. And they're like, here we go, man.

What is your problem, What is your deal? And I was like, fellas, I can't throw stones from a glass house. I was like, I've fallen short. And I'm trying to get them to see it, but from my perspective, and I was just like, I've fallen short. Like, I'm not perfect.

And if my worst moment or my mistake or something that I even did deliberately was seen for everybody to see, I would want mercy. know, my worst moment or my mistake or something that I even did deliberately, you know, was seen for everybody to see, I would want mercy. Or I'd want understanding. I'd want anything. And I said, I just want to use this moment to lift up Christ. And one of my teammates was like, man, you've never done anything in your life. That was funny. But yeah, so we have this, and one of the vets on our team is just like, look, everybody do whatever you want to do tomorrow now,

because this is going to be a whole show. And so I leave, and I can't sleep that night, and I'm on the phone with my pastor, and I'm telling him about the situation and how I wasn't going to kneel and everything. I literally was like, look, I don't think you understand how crazy this is going to be.

I'm going to be a sellout. I'm going to lose my black card. I'm going to be on Sports Center. I'm going to be on ESPN. I'm going to be on TMZ. I'm going to be everywhere. I hadn't signed my contract extension that was coming up after the season was over with. And he said something to me.

He said, Jonathan, you cannot stand for God and God not stand for you. And I was like, ugh, I hate you. That's so good. Wow. And I was trying to give him a lot of reasons for him to be like, okay, I understand how crazy this is going to be. So kind of just don't do it.

Yeah. And he was like, you can't you can't stand for God and God not stand for you. I don't know how he's going to stand, but you can't do it and have not stand for you. And I said, okay, I'm going to go through with it. And the next day, it happened. And I remember just standing there. Everybody staring at me while we were warming up. I'm the only one out there without the black glass medit-shirt on,

my teammates looking at me like, there's the other teams looking at me, the refs are looking at me in disgust, like, it looks awful. And so I'm just standing there, and I was just praying under my breath, like God, like, you gotta do, you gotta help me. Like, you gotta help me, you gotta help me

to say the right thing and to portray what I'm trying to, what I'm doing, because I don't know. I just know that it's right in my opinion. And so that was that. And we had, you know, after I get all the questions and the, you know, do you even believe that black lives matter? You know, and all these different stuff. And I'm like, no, that's not, that's not it. That's not what this is about. This is about Jesus said, if he'd be lifted up, he would draw them into himself. And I understand that racism and all the things that plague our society, because there's more than just racism, are heart issues. And if we could fix the heart, which we know the gospel does, then we could have what everybody wants, which is real peace, if that's what everybody wants. And so,

so, yeah, so that was that. And I think I think this line that kept coming to me was if we could love each other the way that God loves us, right, which is in spite of our sin, in spite of our shortcoming, in spite of our differences, in spite of you did me wrong, he did me wrong, then we could have we could have true reconciliation, true love, true peace. But we know that that's not that's that's not going to happen, you know, on this world. So, um, but yeah, that was that. And obviously, there was a ton of backlash. I knew it was coming. I tried my

best to stay off of social media, but it was hard. But the amount of encouragement, the amount of letters that I got the amount of people who understood where I was coming from, it blew my mind. And that turned into the book, that turned into everything that you kind of see today. So cool. Well, I think it's so powerful because you were standing for a reason. Like, I think, again, it wasn't to be controversial.

Like, you had such a reason and it was such a good reason. It's not that you didn't care, it's that you cared so much. It's not that you didn't care, it's that you cared so much. It's not that you didn't care, it's just that you were like, I see what everyone's doing and I care so much about that, but let me tell you what I really think is going to heal us, what's really going to help us. And it was actually drawing people away from just, you know, a movement to like what actually

could change lives. And so I think that's what makes it like so powerful is, is that you stood for such a strong reason and such a strong conviction, and then you portrayed it in such a loving way. And I think a lot of times when people do make a controversial move, it's not attached to love, you know, and that's why, like, this was so cool about you still doing what you're doing I still playing basketball still think you wrote a book that was very successful in doing all this like that was in the midst of Cancel culture like so many people did stuff during that time that like got cancelled

You know like done and you did something near that time that like could have got you cancelled But yet you've had more impact more success from it. And that's because you did it out of love. You did it for a reason. And the things that you did it for are the things that you still stand for, the things that you still care about, which I think speaks so much to the integrity of it. Yeah.

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Visit rosettastone.com slash today. That's unlimited access to 25 language courses for the rest of your life. Redeem your new year's offer at rosettastone.com slash today. That's the cool thing too. I feel like, you know, it even helps for, for, from like the judgment side of things where people not to judge, cause you know, if you're on the outside looking in

and people see you do that, but then yet they don't know that the night before you can't sleep, you're crying on that. You're talking to your pastor, like you're actually wrestling with, you know, the human and like, yeah, it's not like you woke up and you wanted to be, you know, wanted to make this stand. It was like something that you actually really wrestled over. And I think that's cool for people listening,

you know, who see a certain thing. It's like, you don't always know the full story. And I think we need to be slower to judge people for things that we don't know the full story to. So it's cool to hear the backstory of like the night before it happened, all the things that you were wrestling with and the conversations that you had

and just the anxiety that you were kind of facing towards it. I love it. I just love what you shared because Christian and I were talking about this the other day because he like wanted to post this whole thing about the TikTok ban. I was so happy when TikTok got banned. Because Christian hates TikTok.

So he wanted to post this video about how this is the best thing actually that's happened. And it was a little controversial, in my opinion, what he was wanting to post. And I was like, OK, let me just tell you my opinion. I'm like, I'm not saying don't post it because people aren't going to agree with you. I'm not saying don't post it because people aren't gonna agree with you. I'm not saying don't post it

because people aren't gonna like it. Why I don't think you should post it is because I don't hear love in your tone. And I think- You said you're not offering a solution. And you're not offering a solution. Like if you were doing this because you really cared about how TikTok has negatively impacted people,

which I think you do, then your tone needs to be like, why it would be so much better for your life? Like the solution, why you care about it, how social media has negatively impacted your life and like the road you went down with Snapchat and how you see similarities on TikTok. I was like, cause you do have a reason,

but you're not expressing the reason. All I hear is like, TikTok's the worst thing ever. I'm so glad that we don't have it. And it's like rejoicing in something people are sad about losing. So instead of that, it's like, you need to offer like a solution, a care, a heart response. Like think about it for a couple more days

and maybe like add like some scripture to it, like a reason for it, you know? So it's just funny, because I do think like so much about how you come about things. It's not that you can't talk about a topic because it's controversial. It's just how you do it and why you do it.

And at the end of the day, like why you make that decision. In a second, I want us to talk about Unitas because I think it's so amazing. And like I said, what is so cool to the integrity of what you did is that you're still doing it. You're still preaching it. You're preaching it loudly. But before I do, I have to ask you a question

I'm so intrigued in, because I think so many people, not even with cancel culture, but just in life, you surround yourself by people who kind of agree with you, who think like you do, who live similar lifestyles. But when you're on a team of people, you are placed on a team of people that y'all are like, y'all could be so different in so many ways, but you have a commonality in basketball.

Well, I'm sure like some of you guys are some of your best friends, some of y'all are probably so different. In a moments like that where you make a decision that's different than your whole team, like how do you work past that? Like you're still in the, like you're still in the same team, you gotta work past it, you're in a season.

Like do you think that's helped you in life be able to get along with people who are different than you just by being on an actual basketball team, learning how to be a team with people in general? Does that make sense? Absolutely, and that wasn't even the worst of it. So not to take a lot of more time, but we, so after I stood, right, so this goes in right,

we were saying we still had to play so it wasn't like that was just one game like there were other games to play and so and they were they were they were they were gonna keep the teams were gonna keep kneeling so it wasn't like just you stood and I was it you're gonna leave the bubble now so after that day is over with all the media everything the next day's practice we go to practice, relieving practice on the bus back to the hotel. And I get a text on my phone, hey, team only meeting when we get to the hotel. I'm getting off the bus.

One of my teammates is like, oh, this is a heads up for you. This this is about you just letting you know. And so I'm like, oh, Lord, what's this going to be? So I get in there and it's it's heated. Like we had a few guys on our team that were like they were really deep in the movement, get in there and it's, it's heated. Like we had a few guys on our team that were like, they were really deep in the movement. Like they went to the protest, like they were, and they were like, look, we're not kneeling next to you standing. Like we will stay in the locker room. And I was like, Oh my goodness. It's

like, I wasn't ready for it. And at the same time we had guys on our team that were like, yo, look, we know Jonathan, like, we, we know this isn't about him wanting to take the spotlight or anything like that. Like, we know him. My nickname on the team was baby Jesus. That's what they called me. They're like, we know this guy, like, just let him be. And so I was just like, I tried to get them to say, like, I wasn't protesting y'all. Like, I wasn't protesting your protest. I was just like I tried to get them the same like I wasn't protesting y'all like I wasn't protesting your protest I was just saying I have a different solution and I respect you guys's decisions to Neil I just please give me that same respect in return

And so we had to end that meeting and I remember I called my pastor crying I was like, you know, like I did something wrong Like I messed up like I didn't it didn't go right, like just the whole night. And my pastor's like, he's like the OG, he's like, he's really dope. His name is Dr. Doron Hepburn, like he's a straight shooter. He was like, no, no, you did exactly what you're supposed to do.

He was like, you respected them, Nealyn, they gotta respect you, stand in, you keep in it. But to that point, it's like, it still had to go on. And I still love every single one of those guys and and I understood also how emotional the time was right like I'm looking at like I Understand like why they'd be so mad at why that country's upset why have the countries I get it and so

So I had to come in there with humility as well like not like oh I know everything and I know the right answer and I'm self-righteous or above you guys because I have this opinion. I really tried to be lowly in it and be like, look guys, I respect you guys. This is just kind of my prerogative. And it worked out because later on,

I had a lot of conversations with some of those guys and they were even like, oh, sorry. I was really emotional during that time. And after certain things came out about Black Lives Matter organization, everything like that, they were even like, yo, sorry. Like I was really emotional during that time. And you know, after certain things came out about Black Lives Matter organization, everything like that, they were like, I was too deep invested to understand what was happening. And I think because of the position,

because of the heart posture that I took, it made that easier. But if I think if I went in there with the, you know, I know God and you guys don't, it would have been a lot harder for me. Yeah, that's so good. I love that. So from all this to came Unitas,

which we are all repping right now. I got my t-shirt, Christian's got his shoes, you're rocking your hoodie, and you even play in your shoes. Tell us about the brand, why you started it, how that got started, and yeah, I think it's absolutely incredible. You have some really cool stuff on there.

Thank you so much. United is my baby, man. So during that time in the bubble, after I stood that first time, right, we have that team meeting and we have to play again. And that second game, I tear my ACL. Oh my gosh. So I had to leave the bubble and my team stayed there and darkest time of my life.

It was like, I was like, God, what is going on? Like it was awful. I was depressed. It was bad. But I'm grateful for the people that I have around me because if it wasn't for my pastor, it wasn't for my wife, I would have quit. I would have just been done, quit on God, quit on myself. But I've learned about God throughout that process that God is not just the God of the hills, he's the God of the valleys.

And he walks you through his faithful in times that we're not faithful to him. And I've learned his faithfulness. And one nugget that I took from that was, we don't know, I know we read about God being all these things, he's faithful, he's a father to the fathers, he's a mother to the mothers, but you don't know him in those ways until you need him to be those things.

And it was like, I knew, God, I know you're faithful because I read about your faithfulness, but now God, no, I know you're faithful because I read about your faithfulness, but now God, no, I know you're faithful because I needed you to be faithful and you were. And I got to experience you in that way. That's what it was for me during that time where it was like, I had to restart my whole relationship with God,

because it was bad, it was bad. And so during that time, right, so I'm injured and I'm having to come on my road to recovery. And I'm telling my pastor, hey, when I get back, also I was a Nike athlete at that time, I was signed to Nike, and you know, Nike decided not to resign me when I was going

to be coming back. And I told him, hey, I'll probably try to go with Adidas or something like that when I come back, and he was like, why don't you make your own shoe? And I was like, that's how he is, that's exactly how he thinks. Why don't you make your own shoe? I'm like players don't do that. Like you have these companies for a reason and he's like no make your own shoe And so started going down that road and and god just blessed it like it started everything started to fall into place The right people came around it and we created the juda one

And then uh as that was was happening I get a call from him and he's like hey I'm at the church right now I'm praying and I'm looking so what we have at our altar is the Ark of the Covenant like a replica of it and it has the fire in the middle and the wings pointed in and and he's like he was praying to God and he was saying God you're the only thing that can unite us you know black white, political divisions, male, female, all these, you're the only thing that can unite us. And he was like, Jonathan, you need to name your brand, Unite Us.

And I was like, mic drop. All right, that's the name. That's the name. And we created the Judah One, which was the first NBA signature sneaker with visible Bible verses on the outside of them. And so all of last season, I'm wearing basketball sneakers that have visible Bible verses on the outside of them. And so all of last season I'm wearing basketball sneakers that have different Bible verses on them, Proverbs 28, 1, all these different ones.

And it was awesome and people learned about it and they started to blow up and we've just grown. We went from the Judah one now we're working on the Judah two and we came out with some low tops and we came out with the fortress that Christian has on right now and all of them have Bible verses on them. And it's just been awesome.

It's been a great endeavor, a lot of learning, a lot of ups and downs and it's so funny like being on the opposite side of like a consumer and now you're trying to make product. It's like, oh my gosh, you have no idea what people actually like or what people want. But it's been awesome. But just

the heart behind it is, I want to give people an alternative, an option that is high quality sports and apparel option that is centered around honoring God and just walking out what it means to be in a relationship with them and how to love people. It's awesome. And to do that united and together. And that's what the brand is about. It's so cool. I think it's so cool because like, you know, I love how you say like high quality, but also Christian, because it's cool from someone who like truly loves the Lord.

So that's going to be a part of the shoe, but also actually plays basketball and is going to be playing in the shoes because you can trust the quality. And Christian put those on. He was like, no, these are actually awesome. He loves them. I literally love these. So we are, you know, we were fans before,

bigger fans now that we actually know you. Jonathan, it's been so great just hearing your story. Thank you for being so vulnerable and sharing everything. And we could not be bigger fans of all that you're doing, cheering on you and your family and your career and Unitas and all the things. So thanks for being on the Boadesco Podcast. It has been awesome.

Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate you guys.