WHOA That's Good Podcast - Is this the REAL face of Jesus? The Shroud of Turin Explained By An Expert | Sadie Robertson Huff & Dr. Jeremiah Johnston

Episode Date: April 1, 2026

Sadie sits down with Dr. Jeremiah Johnston for a special live episode—joined by friends and family—filmed in front of a replica of the Shroud of Turin. After recently learning about it, she wanted to understand more, so she invited a trusted New Testament scholar who has spent years studying the cloth and its significance. What is the Shroud of Turin, and how should we view it as believers? Dr. Johnston gently walks through the research, what experts have discovered, and how it all ultimately points back to the hope we have in Jesus. Get your copy of Dr. Johnston's book, "The Jesus Discoveries" today!  This Episode is Sponsored By: https://preborn.com/sadie — Donate today. For just $28, you can help a mother in need meet her baby for the very first time. https://jonesroadbeauty.com — Get a free Shimmer Face Oil with your first purchase when you use code WHOA at checkout! https://gominno.com — Get your first month FREE when you use code WHOA at sign up! - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Again, that's hunger root.com slash woe with the code woe to get 40% off your first box and a free item of your choice for life. What's up? Well, that's good fam. I hope you're having a great week, but it is about to get so much better. Today is going to be unlike any podcast we've ever done on Woe That's Good. And in seven and a half years, it's really cool to say that and genuinely mean that. This podcast is going to be so cool.

And I'm going to give you a little backstory of how I even got here before I introduced our guest today. So it was about a month or so, probably two months ago. I was listening to this podcast with Lee Strobel on the Sean Ryan Show. And he was talking about all the stuff that's been coming out that's really just like proving Christianity's real just by evidence and stuff. And he was like, I don't know what you think about the shroud of Turin, but you should go study Dr. Jeremiah Johnson stuff. and it was kind of just like a throwout comment. And I was like, the shroud of touring. I was like, I don't know what that is.

I never heard of that. And then I was like, Dr. Jeremiah Johnson. Okay, what is this? And so after I listened to this podcast, I did a little Google search about what this was. And I start seeing, it's like the face of Jesus, the face of the Messiah, all the stuff. And I was like, what in the world is this?

I've never heard of this. How have I never heard of this? And so I got in this kick of listening to Dr. Jeremiah Johnson's podcast that he's been on. and his studies that he's doing. And I was just absolutely fascinated by this. And then what was really exciting is it led me to want to reread the gospel,

reread the resurrection of Jesus Christ. And I was like, this is just so cool. And so I wanted to invite Dr. Jeremiah Johnson on the podcast, who has a new book, by the way, The Jesus Discovery, 10 historic finds that bring us face to face with Jesus. His studies are absolutely fascinating. And we're going to be talking about the shroud of tour.

And so if you're like me and you're like, I've never heard of this. We're going to talk about that. If you're like someone who's heard of it your whole life and you're a skeptic, we're going to talk about that. We're going to go a little bit of everywhere today, and I'm super excited. But if anything, whether you believe that the shrouded twerin is actually real or not,

we do know that we really do serve a very real resurrected king in Jesus, and that is a fact that I'm stoked about. And so I hope this just fans the flame of your faith that you already have. And what a great time to do this around Easter, where we're talking about a resurrected king. So without further ado, Dr. Jeremiah Johnson, and thank you for being on the podcast. I'm delighted to be here and so thankful for how the Lord's using you and live original all over the world.

God's hand is on you and your husband, and it's just a privilege to be in your studio today. I'm excited for this conversation. This is crazy because not only are you in the studio, but you literally brought the replica, which is nuts. Yeah, I'm ruining it for all your other guests. They've got to up their game now. I know. This is definitely the coolest episode we ever had. For the record, too, we have a live audience today.

If you hear laughter, if you hear us up, and we're going to have a second episode. where our live audience who are family and friends ask you questions. I can't wait. Because I had to bring everyone here because if not, I'd be defending this forever to everyone because we were having these conversations for the past two months. And a lot of questions get brought up when you start talking about this. So we're going to talk about it all. This is really, really cool.

Before we get into all of the things with the shroud, tell us a little bit about who you are. Okay. My name is Jeremiah Johnston. I love Jesus Christ with all my heart. I'm married to Audrey for over 20 years. We've not slept in nine years because we have nine-year-old triplets, Abel Rider and Jacks at home. And then we have an amazing daughter, Lily, 16, son, Justin, 13.

And so everything in my life, all that matters to me is passing on a legacy of faith to my kids. So all of this is just for my efforts, for Audrey and me, it is our motivation to just let our kids know how real Jesus is. And they challenge me. They said, Dad, okay. And we have fun conversations at dinner. We have artifacts. I'm kind of like in Indiana Jones. We have artifacts all over our house.

Like our triplets wanted to know if they could sleep with the shroud in their beds. So we have these fun conversations, but our kids asked me. They said, Dad, and they said, okay, we have all these questions about Jesus, but you can't use the Bible to answer them. You have to use nothing but evidence. Whoa. And that is why I wrote my new book, Jesus Discoveries, because there is so much Jesus is the most well-evanced person from antiquity. And then I realized, man, if my kids don't know this, there's probably a lot of awesome Christians out there that just need a reminder or an update. how well evidenced our faith is, and no other faith is like that.

And so that was a great segue into what I've done. And the ultimate payoff is when you study these things, it brings you face-to-face with Jesus. And the whole point of today's broadcast, there is a passage in Romans that I had read a thousand times, Sadie, but I had never read it with this context that we're talking about. Romans 5-8 says, but God demonstrated his love for me. me and that while I was a sinner, he sent his best Christ to die for me. We see that word demonstration, and I think we move past it far too quickly. And what I want to remind people today, the big payoff of today's broadcast is you're going to walk away if nothing else realizing you were on Jesus's mind and how much he loves you and what a demonstration of his love it is. Wow. Wow, that's so beautiful.

I can't wait. It's so interesting. I think this is really beautiful because you've had so many studies and it's crazy. How much schooling have you done? Way too much. I mean, you have like a lot of different things that you've studied. I've been fortunate to study in some really great places. I have a PhD. I did my PhD on the physical bodily resurrection of Jesus, but the whole reason I did that

wasn't to join the ivory tower. My passion, we have a ministry called Christian Thinker Society. I believe every Christian should be a thinker. It's the great commandment. Love God with your heart, soul, and my passion. mind. Jesus modifies the shaman, Deuteronomy 6, when the Pharisees are asking him questions, and he says, love God with your heart, soul strength, and Jesus adds as only you can. He messianizes the text. He says, love me with your mind, love me with your thinking. And so

that's really when you lock in to the Christian faith. Unlike all the other religious faiths, the deeper you go into Christianity, the more solid rock you hit. And that's when it gets so exciting. Wow. It's so cool. It's funny because I'm sure you're used to like people being a little skeptical of things. And whenever I first started getting excited, I'll out my husband now that you love him and y'all have already, yeah, y'all already talked about. He's a shroudy. He's a shroudy. That's hilarious. Oh my gosh. There is totally going to be that in the comments. Christian was like, well, how does this guy know? You know? And I'm like, well, it's not just like a random person I found on YouTube. Like, he's dedicated my life. He's dedicated his life to studying this. He is an expert in it for,

for a lot of reasons. But I think what's, Christian's embarrassed that I said that, hey, I didn't ever say You did say that. You did. Hey, we're getting real today. But I love, I actually think that that's important for people to know that this isn't just like, this is a well-studied. This is something that you have spent your life studying and dedicated to. And when you look at your degrees, it is quite impressive. But what's really cool is that sometimes when people grow in knowledge, they lose like the heart. And I love that you are so passionate about almost not even saying all the things that you have in school because you're like, it's the heart. It's the love of Jesus. If anything this shows, it's that God loves you.

The whole reason is for your kids to know, like, this Jesus is real. And so I think it's amazing that you have excelled in your studies and all those things, but you also have kept, like, the heart so pure. And so I think that's cool. That's very, very inspired. Well, my wife gets all the credit, so it wouldn't happen without her. She has been on this journey with me since the beginning. We started our ministry from nothing living in Oxford.

She's the one that said, absolutely, let's do this. And, you know, and what's really interesting is C.S. Lewis, who's a great hero of mine. I would go to his home all the time when we lived in England. And by the way, C.S. Lewis kept a picture of the shroud in his bedroom. I had not seen this until recently. And I've popped this on some of my socials. I was, I've been to us, you know, again, I didn't believe in the shroud for years. I was a total skeptic. And so I think I just might have just glazed right by it. I'm in his bedroom. I can see it right now, Sadie. This is the bedroom of C.S. Lewis. He had a fireplace in his modest, very modest bedroom, but he had a cool fireplace. And above the mantle of his fireplace,

wasn't pictures of his brother, Warnie, or his family. It was the face of Jesus from the shroud. Wow. And the scholar taking me through his house said, Lewis needed a reminder every morning when his feet touched the ground that our God has a face. Whoa. And that face is Jesus. So if it's good enough for Lewis, it's good enough for me. And one thing that Lewis inspires me with, you know, here's a very learned man. But he said, you've got to be able to speak in the cultural vernacular, you know, speak in understandable ways. And so I'm trying to take a hundred and two academic disciplines that have studied the shroud, 600,000 scientific research hours, and boil it down to two minutes or less, because if I don't, my triplets start going screensaver on me.

You know what I mean? They just kind of like, oh, so I've got to say it in quick hits, and so I'm working on that. That's amazing. Okay, so if they're like me and they're listening to this podcast, just like I was, and I heard the shroud tour, and I was like, what is that? What is it? So the shrouded, of Turin is the moment of Jesus's physical bodily resurrection. We know the exact date. It occurred on Sunday morning, April 5th. By the way, this year, as we're recording this podcast, Easter is on April 5th. It happened to AD 33. And what's amazing about the shroud is outside of the scriptures. In one artifact, you have the death, you have the burial, and you have the resurrection of Jesus, and nothing else does that but the Bible. Wow. Whoa. Okay. So,

So this is believed to be the burial cloth of Jesus. So all four Gospels, and I brought my Bible with me, tell us very important details. There's 89 chapters in the gospel, Sadie, as you know. Only four of them deal with Christmas. Most of them deal with what happened at Easter. That's the whole point of the 89 chapters of the gospel. And the Gospels use very important specific language. They say that when Jesus dies, his body, do you remember who asked for his body,

Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus, that's appropriate because they were members of what you may have heard of, the Sanhedron that condemned Jesus to death. If the Sanhedron condemned a criminal to death, even if it wasn't Jesus, just say another random dude, it was the Sanhedron's responsibility to bury them. So what we see playing out in the Gospels is what really happened in Jewish burial traditions. That wasn't just special to Jesus. They go and they do something heroic. They say, we want the body of Jesus to pilot. So he's dead at three o'clock. They have to bury him before six o'clock because of Shavat, because it's Passover. You never went to a graveyard at night if you were a first century Jew.

So there's all these very particular things they're following. And the Bible says in all four Gospels that Joseph of Arimathea, a wealthy man, not only gave Jesus, his tomb, which was a new tomb in which nobody had been laid. But if you read it carefully, all four gospels say they wrap. his body in a shroud. And so this shroud behind us that our audience is looking at is to believe to be the very burial clothes of Jesus. Does it sound too good to be true? It did to me. I was a huge skeptic until I actually started studying all the data for myself and now I'm a shroudy. Wow. I'm so excited. Hey fam. Let's talk about something that has been really heavy on my heart. So there are women in our

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Here's the incredible part. More than 80% of the time, when a mom sees her baby on an ultrasound at a preborn clinic, she chooses life. Well, I think that's amazing and something that I remember just seeing each of my kids on the ultrasound for the first time. When you see that little baby growing in you, and whenever you hear the heartbeat, there is just something like that clicks with you like wow this is my child and so i can see why why that would be the case and this march preborn is hoping to save 6,800 babies but it will take a hundred and 24 partners saying yes every day so i just want to ask you if you would pause your busy day for just a moment and become a yes right now for just $28 you're providing one ultrasound and $140 helps five mothers

every dollar helps save babies and share hope to donate dial pound 250 and say the keyword baby that's pound 250 with the keyword baby or visit preborn.com slash sadie again that's preborn.com slash sadie. So this is so crazy because whenever I first looked into it and I saw this burial cloth with this image of Jesus, I was like, okay, the first thought that came to my mind was, okay, so do all the burial clause that we found from that time if we have other ones? I thought they must have images of other people on them. Like, I thought the image got there because it laid on it for so long and somehow it just was embedded.

This is before I even, like, click on anything. This is just, like, first thought I was like, okay, so other burial claws must have people's images on it because it laid there for so long that somehow the image got there. But this one just happens to look like Jesus is because there's a fiction marks. Okay, so explain how other burial cloths and shrouds that we found, they don't have images on them. They don't. And that's a great point. And it's a great question that you're asking. So many people watching around are wondering the same.

thing. Is this unusual? We have, to answer your question, hundreds of burial claws from the land of Israel. Jewish burial traditions were very important. You and Christian have been to the land of Israel. You probably stood on the Mount of Olives where there's 150,000 bone boxes. That's oscillegium. We can get into that later if you want to. So burial was a sacred duty in Judaism. And they would always wrap the body with linen cloth. And so we have hundreds of other linen, fine linen burial shrouds. We even have one. This is kind of cool. The Tomb of the Shrout in Jerusalem was found 20 years ago.

And there's all these Bible skeptics out there. They're always coming up with new ways. And this is why I'm so thankful for your voice, your content. I'm so concerned with the advent of AI where people are going to get verified, accurate information. And one of the huge problems we have today with the rise of influencers, a lot of like really old, bad arguments against the Christian faith are like coming back and popular again. It's like, oh, no, we answered that 400 years ago. I can't even believe that's getting a hearing now. Well, one of those was, oh, the Bible says that Jesus cured leprosy.

There's no such thing as leprosy in the first century, so you can't trust the Bible. We have a shroud from Jerusalem called the Tomb of the Shrout. I talk about it in Jesus' discoveries. It was so airtight. There was even hair and DNA on the shroud. No image, but it had Hansen's disease on it, leprosy, which showed that in the first century, there was leprosy. And so we have lots of burial shrouds. But what makes the shroud of Turin unique is it is the only shroud that has an image of a crucified man who experienced brutal torment.

And I want to make this clear, it's not a death cloth. It's a resurrection cloth. We are looking at a bolt of light that was so powerful. And I have traveled the world now and met with the scientist. I want to jump into this with you. Yeah. I met with Paulo de Lazaro. He is a weapons scientist who works. with lasers. It sounds like something on Star Wars. He has a weapons clearance. It's a great dude, by the way. He's an Italian guy. We met in Turin, where the shroud is. And he took five years in his lab with the most powerful laser in the world to study what would take, what kind of power. When I was on Pierce Morgan,

I said this, because I had like two minutes. So it was like, a nuclear event happened at the moment of Jesus' resurrection that left behind a residue of his physical body. That's what we're talking. That's what we're about it. It's a, it's not a death cloth. It's a resurrection cloth. And so, Paula spent five years, this is all academic. He's a physicist. And they said it would take 34,000 billion watts of energy. But here's the kicker, Sadie. It's the speed at which the light was traveling in one 40th of a billionth of a second to change the chemical makeup to leave an image on the shroud. Because you rightly said, and Christian did too, the scientists have proven. And this is the first time I've used the word proven. The scientific team that studied the

shroud, 33 of some of the world's greatest scientists, they're not pastors, they're not people who have a theological axe to grind. In fact, Barry Schwartz himself, he's now dead, who is part of that original team. He said, we just thought this was a free trip to Italy. We were down in the lobby having drinks. And we were joking about, give me 15 minutes in the scientific method, and I will prove this is a fraud. A day later, no one was joking. because they proved there is no paint, there is no dye, there is no pigment, there are no brushstrokes, but here's the kicker. And this is where you've got to lock in with me, people. The shroud, the image itself is 0.02 microns thin. So if I get, if you took about one of your hair, just one fifth of the size of your hair is how superficial the image is.

So whereas the blood on the shroud, which will, get to, Jesus's blood, absorbs all the way through because that happened before the resurrection. And this is where we were just looking at it, and I've seen it in Turin, if you get closer than eight feet, the image vanishes. You can't see it because it's so superficial. If I had a razor, you could shave off the image. It's that superficial. So I want to make clear that the image, that's what scientists cannot replicate. How do you put an image on a cloth that's 0.02 microns then and not scorch it, not burn it up, not have a pigment. And this is what the greatest scientific minds. And I'm talking about, Sadie, people I met, you can tell I get all amped about

this. I love it. I need to chill out. Sorry. No, don't chill out. This is what well that's good I have spent my life now the last three years meeting with scientists from Sandia Labs. That's where the nuclear bomb testings are. Las Alamos laboratories in New Mexico. The jet propulsion laboratory. I already said Ania labs in Rome. And these scientists, work with atom bombs. They're nuclear bomb scientists. They're physicists. And they said, we don't have the amount of power first on Earth to create that kind of energy it would take. But they said, we can't quantify. We can't replicate how this image took place. And so what I say is, it is a natural effect of the supernatural moment of Jesus's resurrection. If the big bang

cause the universe, let me tell you, a bigger bang will cause our resurrection. Wow, that's crazy. So that was the thing for me that I started being like, whoa, okay, so there's no oil, there's no paint, and then no scientists can figure out how an image like that would get there. And how could someone figure out how an image like that could get there years ago if someone tried to fake it. That we couldn't figure out now with all the things that we have going on. So this was like, wait, what? So then I ended up watching a YouTube video of a nuclear engineer guy explaining it. Now that I didn't understand 90% of the words he said, but I was like, okay, that's crazy. But it was talking about like the impact, like the force of energy and the timing that I would have to happen and to create an image like this. And it was just crazy. And then when I was reading the resurrection account just in the gospels, it's like so cool that it says like the ground began to shake and the stone is rolled away. I think that's what popped the stone out.

I think the energy just from the resurrect just popped the stone out like a pringled jar coming off. It's crazy. Another cool thing to think about because what I love is. about your show as it's so centered on the Bible. Think about Sadie, every time Jesus manifests his presence in the New Testament, it's always amazing light. First off, think of the new heaven and the new earth. It says there will be no need for the sun because Jesus will give light to everything. Think about the Transfiguration, Mark 9. Remember the disciples, they don't want to leave this presence of Jesus, this amazing light. Think about the book of Acts with Paul. And I have

filmed on first century Roman roads in Israel. It is hot. You're sweating. So I put myself in the position of Paul. He's on the way to Damascus to kill Christians. And if you remember the book of Acts, he said, I saw a light brighter than the noonday sun. And it was Jesus. And so there is something powerful related to the light that Jesus manifests when we see him in all of his glory. It's crazy.

So, so crazy. So this is interesting to me, too, because they kept the burial cloth. Well, there's so many places I want to go with this, but they kept the burial cloth, you know, I guess, I don't really know how that happened, like who kept it and how they kept it. But they didn't know that his image was on this until, like, more so recently, right? Because of the photo that was taken. Like, why, how did they know for so many years that this was Jesus' Baroque?

Well, we have a tradition that is very ancient of a burial cloth with the face of Jesus on it. And we have that in the written tradition. We have that in Eusebius. We have that in Edessa. I actually have a slide. This is really cool because all of the places where the shroud is thought to have been, it was, for example, for a thousand years in modern day Istanbul, Constantinople. This is where I want to always remind my Catholic friends,

the Eastern Orthodox Church protected the shroud from Muslim invaders for the first thousand years. So the shroud seems to keep moving away from the Muslim murders that were happening in the 7th century specifically. And so it's in Constantinople. But here's the cool thing. Max Frye, who participated like investigating the Hitler Diaries, the guys like a CSI criminologist. He studied nothing but the pollen. Like, I don't know if it's allergy seasons if you have allergies or not, but a lot of people watching have allergies. There is pollen all over the shroud. And here's the two cool things about the pollen that again, you just like get shroud pilled on this. It's like there are 58 different species of pollen, which flower, you name it.

38 of those come from Jerusalem and only bloom in springtime at the time when Jesus was crucified. The other 20 pollen, they actually trace the history of where the shroud has been. Edessa, Turkey, Istanbul, Athens, France, and then ultimately in turn. So we actually have a pollen signature that traces its antiquity. But the cool question you asked is 1898. Seconda Pia is a lawyer. photography isn't invented until the 1840s. It's like, you know, it's like God knows everything.

He does. It's like God's timing, you know, would reveal this. I believe that I believe truly that there is a controlled revelation right now happening tied to technology as we get closer to the second coming of Jesus Christ. All these other discoveries that I'm going to hand you just continue to come to light that just show how rock solid our faith is and what we believe in. So, Sikonda Pia is a lawyer. Nobody's a professional photographer back in those days.

And he sets up a scaffolding. I've seen the camera he used. It looks like a, it looks like a huge dorm fridge. And he has to use glass plates. And there was no power in the church where the shroud was. So he had to literally use a generator to power his camera. He takes a photo. It was a 14 minute and 20 minute exposures.

He gets in the dark room. And he goes, oh my God. Never more appropriately. Wow. Because he saw the face, what he. He believed he's a follower of Jesus. He's the first one since the apostolic era to see what he believed to be was the face of Jesus. So we got to do something fun together.

Do you have your phone? Yes. All right. This is so cool. I had never seen this before. And you can do this at home. This is what's cool at home. Okay.

Now, I always love to anybody that texts me with green, you know, we cannot help the Android people in the world. Okay. So we got to give them a hard time. But, no, there is a way to do it on Android that they can Google. if they have Google. So I want you to open your settings on your phone. Okay. And I want you to just type classic invert.

And so those of you that are watching or listening, you just type in classic invert. I want to include our, I want to ask our skeptics in the audience to do this as well. Especially the skeptics. Put it in classic invert. Do you see how I'm doing that? You're just going to go boom.

Okay, great. And it will change. And then if you open the camera, like you look, yeah, I look freaky right now. That's crazy. Okay. Sometimes makeup is just a struggle. Either it's too much, too heavy, or you're trying to cover up things, but somehow look natural. It's just never quite lands right. And honestly, there are so many products out there. It's hard to even know where to start. But that's why I am loving Jones Road Beauty. It's makeup that enhances your natural skin instead of hiding it. Their miracle bomb is the ultimate multitasker. It's a highlighter, bronzer, and blush. Their miracle bomb is the ultimate multitasker. It's a highlighter, bronzer, and blush. So whatever you're needing and just, one amazing product and they're just enough tinted moisturizer is a staple of my makeup bag i'm actually

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Just head to JonesRoebeauty.com. Use the code Woe at checkout. After your purchase, they will ask you where you heard about them, and please let them know that the WoW That's Good podcast sent you there. Thanks so much for supporting the show. Now, do you have it in Classic Inverter? Are you with me at home? This is so awesome.

This is what Seconda Pia saw in 1898. And I want you, and I'm going to twist here. Okay. I want you to look and scroll in and zoom in. And our audience can do this. Wow. Yes. So at the middle, you can see how much more clear it is.

Yes. So check that out. Wow. And his hands. You see the wrist, the hands. Wow. Sadie, I want you to look above that triangle right there in the middle. you'll see that almost oval like a figure eight shaped that's blood from his side wound that's when

jesus is pierced between rib five and six i want you to also just zoom in on the face because that's the image that c s lewis had in his bedroom and i want you to see all the blood on the forehead the blood and then if you go to the back remember it covered the whole body this is 14 feet four inches long by three feet seven inches wide but where you're it really gets impactful to me and just let them again but god demonstrated his love look at the back there is not a part of his body that is not brutalized wow over 200 scourge marks on the back of the body you can see there's also additional abrasions in the back because jesus is asked to after he is experiences the phlegrum that's the scourging the

which by the way, according to hematological reports, we believe Jesus lost one third of his blood volume at scourging. If you lose 40% of your blood, you're basically going to die soon. You will be quickly dead. So it's amazing. This is in the chronology of it, they scourge him. And we have an actual replica of the Roman scourge on set here. These were three cords with lead balls at the end. and he is scourge. We've counted up 372 scourge marks. And keep in mind, Sadie, we don't have the lateral sides. Because when Jesus resurrects, he just comes through the cloth.

It's not like he stood up and took it off. Remember, in the resurrection, Jesus can show up in rooms and not use doors. His body has different abilities that are supernatural. And we see that evidence. But when you look at this, he's asked them to carry the cross. He's dehydrated. We know this from studying the blood.

We know that he has high levels of ferretin, which means he's experiencing organ failure. He has high levels of creatin. And those are some big words that I'm just saying that I've read the hematological reports, put him in the Jesus Discovery's book. There's so much we can tell. And so the fact that Jesus could even carry that cross beam,

and so he only carries the cross beam. Like in Mel Gibson's passion of the crisis, carrying the whole cross. No one did that in the first century. The cross beam was there. The vertical part of the cross was there. only carried the cross meme, and that was called the pitibulum. And that weighed about 125 pounds. So can you imagine Jesus after he's experienced this flagellation, the scourging, to be asked to carry

his cross, and that's why he stumbles and he falls. Now, here's something that the first time I saw it, I mean, I took my breath away, started crying. We know that there is limestone, and I put this in the Jesus discovery. I've already talked about the pollen, but there is a limestone signature from the ground. And if you've been to Israel, so there's limestone, everything is limestone, there is all this residue from limestone in his knees, in his feet, and on the tip of his nose. So when Jesus falls, he probably collapses, holding that cross, and literally face plants on the ground. He can't hardly move. I mean, let that set in, and we see that signature on the shroud itself. And that's when Simon of Sirene is asked to carry his cross the rest of the way.

Whoa. That's crazy. That is so wild. I'm so glad that you started this whole conversation out with the context of, like, God demonstrated his love. Like, that's a wild thought to think about. And to show, as I've heard you say, like, you know, there's no shroud that has, like, there's no crucifixion that was like Jesus' crucifixion. Correct. Like there's no, no one else had it like he did. Right. There are aspects, and this is where I interviewed my friend Bruno Barbaris, who's a mathematician at University of Turin.

And all these kind of things we're talking about where we have our Bibles out and we're looking at the shroud and we're seeing all the correspondence. He's a mathematician, and he's been with the shroud a hundred times. He's probably the top, he's given 4,000 lectures on the shroud. And as a mathematician, he put together probabilities. And this is really cool. And this is where it's so fun for your audience to realize, like, we don't check our brain at the door to be a follower of Jesus. We can love him with all our minds. We can love him with our heart, our soul, our passion, and our minds. And with the rise of just so much bad information out there, we've got to be able to say these things quickly. Barbaris said there is a one and two hundred billion chance.

One and two hundred billion. It's anyone other than Jesus of Nazareth. Whoa. And I give that, there's a real, there's fun images in my book, which this is the first time I've ever done a book with pictures. but I actually show all of those things. It's on page 30 of my books. So these are all the things that we see, the wound pattern, the side wound,

the blood angle, the wrist wounds, the elongated arms because the shoulders were separated, the foot wounds. You see, and then I put the probabilities from Barbarus on there. The wound pattern, shoulder abrasion, scourge marks. His body was likely in rigamortis. Here's another interesting thing.

There's so many great passages that Bible readers will remember. member. Well, first, the one when you were just talking, I was thinking about Hebrews, where sacrifices and on offerings you did not require, but a body you prepared for me. And the fact that it was his love that compelled him to go is so impressive to me. And then when I see this demonstration, but we can't stop there. We have to keep the conversation going because something the shroud does so well is it gets all of the crucifixion correctly. Well, Christian and I were talking, about this before the

broadcast started. We are so influenced, we don't realize it, by medieval Christian art in the church. And like, for example, we see a lot of pictures where Jesus has a hole in his hand. Well, no one crucified criminals through the hands because, and we believe that Jesus' body weighed around 170 to 180 pounds.

He was nearly six foot tall, five foot 10 to six feet. I want to just tell you right now, that's not a big deal. We have a tomb. we have skeletal remains of much taller people than that from the first century. So don't at me about, oh, Jesus must have been short or five foot one because everyone was, no, there were people a lot taller than him that were crucified. So we think he's 5, 10 to 6 feet tall, weighs 170 to 180 pounds.

This is a very physically fit man. When I teach the Gospels, I remind people, Jesus probably walked 20,000 miles in his ministry. He walked everywhere. And if you count up all the Jewish passovers and all his trips to Jerusalem, And so he's going, but what's amazing is the shroud, you know, they don't crucify him. They can't hold up 180 pounds through the palm. Yeah.

So they would do it through the wrist, okay? And that's accurate. And for you Bible scholars watching, it's the same Greek word. So I'm not doing anything unbiblical. Like it's the same word in the Greek for the forearm, the wrist and the hands. So it's all, there's no Bible problems here. But I want you to hold something that, I mean, this. took my breath away.

I want you to hold this, Sadie, will I describe it? You are holding in your hand a, this is no replica. This is an actual crucifixion nail. Wow. From the first century found in Jerusalem. JJ, how do I know it's first century? Because of that square shaft. You notice how the shaft is square,

and it used to actually have a square top, but it's been pounded so many times. it's been flattened and circularized, but put that up against your wrist for a second and just feel that. Can you imagine the brutal torment? And again, the shroud gets it right because the holes are where the Romans would crucify people.

The Romans didn't invent crucifixion. It was invented 700 years before Rome. But in Psalm 2216, David sees this prophetically a thousand years earlier, and he says, they pierced my hands. And my feet. So when Jesus said, why have you forsaken me? Wasn't that like a callback to David's song?

Absolutely. Absolutely. And crucifixion wasn't a thing. No. No. This is, David is seeing crucifixion before. I mean, Alexander the Great made it hugely popular around the world to kill people this way, but the Romans perfected it with nails. Wow.

And the most aggressive executions that we have of all of the Roman provinces, meaning the most evil ones took place in what they call the Syrian province of Rome. That's where Jesus, of course, was crucified in Jerusalem. So you're holding a nail, and here's what's touching to me. The bodies meant nothing to the Roman executioners, and they were experts. And what's fascinating to me is they would keep the spikes. The nails were more valuable. They would normally just chuck a body in a mass burial pit,

but they would reuse the crucifixion nails again and again and again. So we can approximate that the nails that pierced our Lord had actually been used to kill other criminals. His sinless body literally had DNA from others who were sinners who deserve death like we do, who deserved brutal torment like we do for our sin. And do you notice, if you hold it up for the benefit of our audience, you notice how there's a curvature. Yeah. So this is interesting too.

I had to really look into this. Now, why is it curved like that? Well, it was used so many times. And the crucif- Jesus is killed in a very demonic way. He's killed consistently, but there's a demonic intimacy and element to it. They would take these nails

once you were crucified, and they would want to minimize movement, but maximize torment. And they would actually adjust the nails while the person was being exes just to increase the pain. And that's why you see that elbow, that bend in the nail. That's horrible. That's terrible. It's so, so crazy. Okay, moms, let's talk about screen time for a second because let's be real. It happens.

And I want my girls to watch some things, you know? I just want to make sure it's good quality shows, not just something to keep them busy, but something that's really impacting them. And that's why I'm so thankful for Minnow. Meno helps kids and families experience Jesus every day on and off screens. It's the number one source of Christian content for kids, and it's filled with high-quality shows that help them grow in their understanding of the Bible and of God. I love that it makes it so easy to bring faith into every life moment, whether it's a little downtime in the afternoon or part of our nighttime routine. It's just a simple way to support my kids' faith while they're also having fun. They have so many great shows like Young David, which is Haven's very

favorite show. They have God's Greenhouse, even Veggie Tales. So your kids are laughing, learning, and hearing about God at the same time. Plus, get this, it's completely ad-free, which makes screen time feel a whole lot more trustworthy. So instead of wondering what your kids are taking in, you can actually feel good about it. We love the Meno app. We let our kids watch a show in the morning, and Haven loves David so much. She wants to be David. Actually, she wants to have a David birthday party. I'm not sure if we're going to do that. But I say, that's how much is impacting her. So visit gomino.com to start your free trial today. Plus, you can use the code Woe to get your first month for free. This is a web only exclusive offers, so make sure to sign up on the go menno.com website with the code woe to get

your first month free. One thing I've heard you say that I thought was really interesting is that, you know, when Jesus came back after his resurrection and he was coming to them and even like Thomas saying, like, you know, showing him in hands, like showing him the evidence. But then there's another part in scripture that you talk about, and I can't remember the exact verse, but it's like the evidence, like he shows them evidence of, it was like, like the same word as um what is it like um oh step i was telling you about this is an autopsy like it was that same word yeah talk about that a little because that was so interesting well here's what's amazing um

we do not take a a jump in the dark to become christians biblical faith is never not based on evidence god doesn't want you to believe in something just because you feel it in fact i have a chapter one of my books why i don't feel my faith it can be really dangerous if we'd put base everything on feelings we have to our faith on truth, on facts. And the facts of the gospel are so simple, a child can understand it. Paul wrote it this way, that Christ died for our sins, according to the scriptures, that he was buried and that he rose again on the third day. Don't add anything to it. Don't change it. That's the gospel. If you believe it, you're forgiven forever. That's how, and then he gives the appearance tradition. And so Luke, who is the number one author of the New Testament, he gives us his Luke

Acts sequel, he says in what's called, I don't want to lose anyone. I don't even know if I should use these words, but books did not have a cover in the first century. They were mainly in scrolls. So you had to like make it count the first few sentences. Like what does a scroll about? Okay. In Latin, that's called an enkip it just means the beginning. That's all it means. So you're with me still. I don't want to bore you. And so like if you read Luke realizing it wasn't like, hey, look at my cool book. This is called the Gospel of Luke. And I had a great graphic designer. No, you had to write down in the first few sentences what this is about. And Luke says, I have been. I have been, interviewing all of these witnesses. And I have Theophilus put together this orderly account of these

men and women who, it uses the Greek word autopsy, autoptes in Greek. They had an eyewitness front row seat to the things so that, verse four, you can have a certainty about the things you have been taught. So God wants you to have certainty in your faith. And he wants that certainty not to be because we vibe it today. Because we might not vibe it tomorrow, but based on on the evidential basis of the gospel. We want you to have a certainty in these things. And so in John 20, which is one of my favorite, if you were to say, you know,

I remember preaching John 20 at the Holy Sepulchre Church three times. I have filmed inside the Tomb of Jesus. We can talk about the location of it if you want. But in John 20, 11 times, I think it's amazing. The gospel writer says, see, saw, see, look,

they noticed. John isn't telling anyone to close your eyes. He's saying, open them and see all of the evidence. And so what's really cool, Sadie, if you don't mind me, can I read from the scripture? Is that all right? I'm in John 20. And I saw this. And it's again, so powerful because you read these passages and it's like, oh yeah, I've read that before. And then you read it. It's like, wait a minute. Holy Spirit, thank you. In John 20, it talks about how on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene, which by the way, If you and I were inventing a gospel narrative in the first century, we never would have written it this way. Women are the first witnesses. This is why I so believe in the power of women in the local church.

That's a whole other broadcast for us someday. The first evangelists of the church were not men. They were women saying the tomb is empty, and I saw him, and that's John 20. But what's amazing is Peter and John have a foot race to the cross, or excuse me, to the tomb. And I just like talking smack a little bit. John wants the people to know for all of time that he was a faster runner than Peter. So Christian would do the same. He's like, just letting you know, this is the most important passage of scripture,

but I'm going to flex for a minute and just let you know Peter's slow. So he beat, he has to wait for Peter. But look at this. Look at verse 8. Then the other disciple who came to the tomb first. He's reminding you, yeah, yeah, I beat him. Went in also. And notice what it says.

He saw and believed. That's the point of our. episode today and the follow up next week, I want people to see and believe more. Now, you might say, well, didn't he believe before this? Well, yeah, but we can believe more. We can see more. I want you to open your eyes to the evidence. And so 11 times, we're told to look at things. 186 times Eidon and Greek is used in the New Testament. We want you to see things. And you realize, Sadie, no other religion on earth does that. Islam doesn't do that. Hinduism doesn't do that. Scientology, any of the Made in America cults and religions that are all made up fantasies.

Only Christianity says you can test our faith on one singular historical event. If that happened, there is hope for the world. And if it didn't, people should feel sorry for us. That's 1 Corinthians 1519. But then Paul says in verse 20, but Jesus has raised from the dead. And so therefore, everything we do in this life matters. That's why he can end 1 Corinthians 15 with be strong, be vigilant, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor in the Lord is.

not in vain. That's because of the resurrection. Yeah. Yep. Woo. You're getting me preaching. I apologize. This is that. Don't apologize. Sorry, not sorry. Don't apologize. Sorry, not sorry. This is so. I want you to hold something else. Now, these are brand new. I've never had these on another show. And my pastor the other day just chucked them across the table in our conference room and it scared me to death because I thought they were going to break. I want you to hold and tell me if you know what those are. What do they look like to you. I don't want to put you on the spot. Like little dice? They're dice.

These are first century Roman dice. Guess what they're made of. They are made of bone, which is interesting. And they're stamped. Do you see the stamped numbers on them? Yes. This is so cool because in Matthew 27, it says that while the author of life is being crucified,

you know, a lot of these executioners were intoxicated. We have one guy Antigonus. God bless him. He was crucified and then decapitated in the first century. That wasn't a good day for him. But like they missed a few times on the wax to take off his head. So like these guys were not all there, but they were experts at execution. It tells you a jaded they were. And it tells me how jaded I can be sometimes to the gospel. Oh, I've heard the gospel a thousand times. And I don't want to ever be like the criminals who the author of life is dying, paying for our sins. And what are they doing? doing. The Bible says in all four Gospels, they were gambling for Jesus' clothes. Wow. And so you are, I'm not saying those are the ones they used. Wow. But what I'm saying is those are first century dice. Wow.

Tesserae is what they're called in their dice. Wow. They're found in the first century in Jerusalem. They're made of bone. And you just hold that. And it's like, Lord, don't ever let us be desensitized like the executioners were. And this also tells me, Sadie, We've got to pray for all the skeptics too, because I got all kinds of stuff here that we have, I mean, we need to get to. I've got coins. I've got, you know, I can prove 65 things about Jesus before I ever opened the Bible just based. And I've got like 30 of them here with me about his life, death, burial, and resurrection. But for some people, no evidence is enough. And this is why we have to pray for our audience and their family who's watching right now. We all have family who don't believe. And I always remind people, John 11, remember this, Jesus. Jesus is enough.

resurrected. I've filmed inside of the tomb of Bethany. And by the way, when I went down there, it was like, you couldn't hardly breathe. Like, this was like a tomb. I was like, but then all of a sudden I just went, Lazarus, come forth. Because I wanted to hear what it sounded like. It would have been like duro Xo for you Greek scholars out there. Come out. Literally stand up is what Jesus yells and he shouts at death. I love that. So the only other time Jesus shouts than other on the cross is when he shouts at death, Lazarus, come out. Here's the whole reason I'm giving you this little tit. bit, this little footnote. They were so skeptical in John 11, the Pharisees still refused to believe in the resurrection. They wanted to kill Lazarus again, the Bible says. Think about that. He would

have died a second time. And they wanted to kill Jesus even more. And so the most dangerous place a person can get. And this is happening a lot right now, because the greatest competitor to Christianity, it's arguable if it's Islam, but it's probably secular humanism. The most dangerous place, you can get is when you stop seeking truth. And that is when you believe any lie. And so those men and women were so jaded to the truth that they saw Lazarus walking before them alive after being dead four days and they still refuse to believe. Wow. I feel like these days everyone values their privacy more than ever. Our homes should feel like a place where we can relax and feel comfortable without worrying about neighbors, street traffic, or light coming in when we don't want it. That's where

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slash woe. One last time, that's buy one, get 150% off when you head to the number three-day, d-a-y-blinds.com slash woe. Yeah, it is, it is interesting, like what AI is doing these days and TikTok and and social media because things look so real that aren't real. and so it's so interesting being here and like holding these things, seeing these things

and knowing that like you said, like it's not a replica. Like that's a real nail. That's a, that, I mean, it's very crazy to think about. You were saying in one of your interviews I heard about how like there's more evidence that this is real than like any other thing.

Like you were talking about even like the Roman Empire like to prove that that was real. This is and people just don't know this. And I want people to know this. Again, back to my kitchen table. conversation with my kids. Like Jesus, I don't know the ages of people watching this, is not like the tooth fairy. So I hope it's okay that I can say that because my son just pulled out his tooth last week. So we actually have evidence for Jesus. And the evidence that we have for Jesus,

I have to appeal to Roman emperors for the same level of evidence that we have for Jesus of Nazareth. Do you realize how unbelievable that is? If we can't believe in Jesus in the first century, don't believe in the Roman Empire. You know, no one in our secular schools, and I used to be a D1 professor, nobody doubts Alexander the Great. Like here's an example. There's only two people that tell us anything about, substantive about Alexander the Great. Aryan and Plutarch,

they both write 400 years after the fact. Nobody doubts anything about Alexander the Great, but those are our two best sources. Are you kidding me? When we come to Jesus, we have 11 sources, and I give all of this in the Jesus discovery, is just snappy, quick.

Like, you need to know, outside of the Gospels, we have so many sources within a historically acceptable period of time, about 100 to 150 years. They give us all these facts about Jesus. There's this really cool one in chapter two. The earliest thing we've discovered is this thing called the Jesus Cup, an Oxford archaeologist, Frank Gadiou, I want to give him all the credit.

He is a scuba diver archaeologist. He pulls out a cup and it says, Dia Christu, Huo Goestes in Greek, which means through Jesus, the magician or the enchanter. And you might think, well, why is that? Remember, Jesus has made famous in his own lifetime because he was such a powerful healer. 25% of the Roman Empire was sick, dying, or in need of immediate medical attention on any given day. And so Luke 722, when John the Baptist is doubting. And I love this because Jesus never shames the doubter.

He sharpens the doubter. He says, tell John what you see in here. The blind see, the deaf here, the dead are necrosegira. The dead stand up. And so we actually have this Jesus cup, which I date to the middle of the first century. This is the first place we see. Crest Christus anywhere from history, and it's on a cup that was used by pagans because they knew Jesus' name was so cool and powerful and awesome that if you would insert his name, things happened.

Wow, that's crazy. Yeah, those are the kind of fun things that we can talk about. Someone wrote me a letter years ago, and all it said was, Dear Sadie, comma, she went down to the middle of the paper, and she said, how do you know, underline no, God is real? and she said practical answers only please and signed her name. And I think about that letter all the time and I think about that even whenever I'm preaching and stuff. And for me, I read the scripture. I'm like, I know God is real because I believe the word.

But it's so cool to see these other things and this evidence and go like, hey, you can actually know for other reasons too. And so that is like the coolest thing ever. Before we go into the next part of this podcast and we get all of our audience questions and we can go through some of the things that you brought, this is so amazing. I don't want us to, I want to hold that for the next episode. But I just want to ask because this is so amazing. And like you said, there's been a hundred and two different, you know, academic disciplines on it. You were talking about like a criminal, a criminologist, is that why I say it, studying it, a mathematician, nuclear engineers, scientists, like all these, all these different studies. Emotologists, medical doctors.

And they're seeing it and they're saying they can't disprove it and people are even saying, you know, like people are walking away from that going, this is real who were skeptics at first, you were one of those people all this is happening around the world. But like, I didn't even know about it until last month. I didn't even know what this was. Like, why do you think, why is it in today's term, why is it being gate-kept?

Like, why do we not hear about it? Why do we not know about it? That's a big answer. Well, number one, the British Museum suppressed all the data on the shroud for 27 years. That's a fact. So, and what I'm talking about the raw data was the carbon dating. 1988, the carbon dating showed that the shroud dated to 1260 to 1390.

And I want you to see, this is the cool thing about having it in your studio. Do you see the top left, like the very top left corner of the shroud? Do you see that there's been some parts removed? Yeah. That is the one part that they carbon dated. And the Sturp team said, whatever you do, don't date that part. Like, date a different part of the shroud because that part, it's been patched. It's not pure linen.

there is cotton weave, and we know the rest of the shroud is linen. Because it went through fires and stuff. It survived at least three fires. You can see the water stains on. I mean, this is a 2,000-year-old burial cloth, which, by the way, don't let that freak you out. We have a 5,000-year-old linen shirt called the tarcan dress. So it turns out linen is good clothes. It lasts forever under circumstances, the right circumstances.

So what's fascinating is a good friend of mine, Tristan Casia Blanca, just did a study, because he's the one who got essentially a Freedom of Information Act to get the British Museum to release the data. And when he did, I don't want to use a big word, but the sample they used is not the same as the shroud. The technical term is the sample they use probably is not homogenous with the shroud. So that means, like, what were they testing?

They were testing something other than the shroud. So there's huge doubts. So when I tell my friends, and there might be comments, like, oh, what about the carbon dating? That is definitely not the reason I would doubt the shroud. Like, come at me with any other reason but not faulty science.

The Journal of Archaeometry in 2019, the same Oxford University published and said, this is erroneous data. We can't base our skepticism on the carbon dating anymore. So that was a quick answer for you. I also think, though, like I said, in a hopeful, I really believe there is a controlled revelation happening tied to technology and archaeology

where the rocks are beginning to cry out, the stones are crying out, that this happened, this moment of resurrection, truly happened in history, Our faith is secure, and this is why we can have hope. I love 1-Peter 1-3. You have a living hope, Sadie, not because you woke up feeling great today, but because Jesus has been resurrected from the dead.

It says we have El-Pice in Greek. We have a living hope, a hope that never dies, a hope that gets us through all of the tough times. And that's why we need to live a resurrection-centric life. We need to talk and thank God for the resurrection. Every Sunday is Easter Sunday, not just once a year. The church doesn't exist without the resurrection. Christianity doesn't exist without the resurrection. There are 300 passages in the New Testament on the resurrection.

There's only 260 chapters in the New Testament. It all comes to the central point, and this is what energizes our faith. Wow, this is so good. This is awesome. Well, I'm fired up. Best way to spend an Easter podcast. This is crazy. This goes much bigger than a podcast.

I'm so excited that you're down for another episode. So for everybody listening, come back next week because we're going to be talking about, We're going to be looking at some more artifacts that he brought, which is just amazing. And also, my friends and family are going to ask some questions that maybe you have to. I wanted to do this because whenever I started learning about it, I had so many questions. And maybe you don't have a community back at home where you feel super comfortable going, hey, listen to what I'm thinking about the shroud. What do he think?

And so we want to be that community with you and for you as we learn about this together. But again, just anchoring our hope and the resurrected king of Jesus. And we're so excited about that. So I'm excited. Yeah, let's go. Thank you so much.