WHOA That's Good Podcast - Loving God Doesn’t Mean Knowing Every Answer | Sadie Robertson Huff | Lisa Harper

Episode Date: October 14, 2026

Doomscrolling and end times predictions lead Sadie and teacher, author, and podcast host Lisa Harper into a conversation about living with hope and raising kids with faith instead of fear. Lisa talks about receiving God’s love without trying to earn it and learning more about Scripture while keeping a soft heart toward others. They also discuss viral Bible teaching, reading verses in context, and what makes humans different from artificial intelligence. Lisa introduces her book, Theology for the Rest of Us, and reveals what the Dead Sea Scrolls tell us about the Bible. WHOA That's Good is now streaming on EKKL. Get every new episode ad-free, and get 20% off with code WHOA: https://ekkl.com/ Get tickets to see Sadie LIVE in Dallas on Nov 13 & 14: ⁠⁠https://www.whoathatsgoodpodcast.com/⁠ One thing to pack, five ways to power! Head to Ridge.com/WHOA for Ridge’s Friends & Family Sale, where you can buy two Ridge Power Banks and get a third FREE. https://go.goodranchers.com/WHOA - Get $50 off plus free meat with every order! https://loveoneinternational.org/whoa - For just $20 a month you'll provide life-saving support to a child in need. Plus, right now, when you join The Love Club, you’ll receive an exclusive Love Club hat! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Guys, I am so excited for Whoa That's Good Live. We are coming to Dallas, Texas, November 13th and 14th at Shoreline Church. One of my favorite churches, I'm so stoked to be there. It's going to be a weekend full of Well, That's Good Fun, with two different shows, one Friday night and one Saturday afternoon. So click the link here to get your tickets today. I want to see you there. I want to meet you in person. It's going to be the best time.

And we might just have a few surprise guests that you have to be in the room to see. What's up, everybody? happy What That's Good Wednesday. I hope you're having a great week, but per usual, it is about to get so much better. We have one of your favorite guests back on the Well That's Good podcast with her new book. Y'all are going to love this. I am so excited. It is Theology for the rest of us. I am the rest of us, and I am so excited. We have Lisa Harper back on the podcast. Oh, I love getting to talk to you. I honestly, if I spend more than five minutes with you on this podcast, my cheeks are going to start to cramp because I grins so much when I get to be with you because my heart is so happy. It's so real. I was actually

telling me and On Nico are sitting by each other and you were up on stage at a hello conference and you said something so funny and it made us laugh and then you pivoted right back into that depth that you always do. You go from like really funny to like super serious and everyone else in the room was able to pivot with you. I could not stop laughing. I said this is why when I share a stage with Lisa is trouble because when she pivoted, I can't stop from what you just said. But I love it. And that's why it's so. But don't you love that we can be in a place like a yellow conference where, I mean, the God just is in the room.

The spiritual transformative material we're hearing is really substantive. Yeah. But it's not stuffy. Like I think for us to take our faith seriously, but to go you don't have to take yourself so seriously. I think that's really important. Because I think, especially in our culture today, people are so concerned with appearance. And they assume, oh, I've got to look like I have it all together if I'm going to be serious about God. And I'm like, yeah, it's pretty much the opposite.

You've got to go, I am such a Yehu. Oh, we have such a good God. That's good. And that kind of is the core of this book. There's some real chunky stuff. Yeah. But hopefully it's communicated in a way that's not remotely threatening or rigid. No, that's the beauty of you writing this book.

That's what makes me go. I'm going to pick up this book and I want to read every single word. Whereas normally, to be honest, if I saw a book on theology, it would intimidate me. I'd be like, this is why I'm going to buy and I'm going to have all the hopes to read, but I'm probably going to check it out because I'm not going to understand it. Plus it's going to be like watching paint dry. Yes. We assume theology is so boring that it's just for seminary professors with high water khakis.

And then you find out, oh, actually the word theology comes from two Greek root words, Theos, which means God, and Logos, which means phrases or conversations. So it sounds like an academic term, but at its basic definition, theology is just having conversations about God, which is what you and I do all the time, which is what everybody does, even people who don't put their hope in Jesus. You know, they just, they saw you on dancing with the stars, they like you, but they still aren't sure about this thing called Christianity. There's still theologians at some level because they're having conversations about God. Does he exist? If he does, could he love a hot mess like me? So I think at some level, theology impacts all of us. You might not know how to

pronounce some of the terms, but the concepts are heart concepts. Wow. Okay, so I love that. This is already so helpful because I remember, this was just a few years ago I found and you asked me to be a part of your late night theology session. And I remember, like, you know, It's so funny because I was speaking that night. I love hanging out with you. We've done podcasts, but something about reading that I was going to be in the late night theology talk. It made me panic.

I was like, oh, no, I don't know how to be in the late night theology talk. Like, this is the one I'm going to listen into, but this is not the one I should be on stage for. And that actually was, I never asked for the questions ahead of time. I go into so many Q&As. I prefer to go and blind. I want to just speak from the heart. Me too.

But I was like, can I get the questions? Like, it made me nervous. Why do you think, like, people are so intense. intimidated by the word theology and to even engage in the conversations about theology. Because for me, I'm someone who talks about the Bible time, loves God, gets on stages, but even that intimidated me. Is it because we have that idea in our mind about professors and that's what we think of? Yeah.

And I think oftentimes theology is presented in an academic format. So it's presented as if, you know, this is about accruing cognitive data about God. And most of us are like, oh, that sounds hard, it sounds boring. It also sounds like it might expose that I have the wrong answers. Yeah. And so we're afraid of looking stupid. And then you find out, oh, this is what I do all the time anyway. I'm always going, well, what?

Missy asked questions about God all the time that are really profound questions. And I think, you know, some of the terminology, it's like shortcut. Like if you, you know, how there's medical terms and you go, Can you just say that in plain English? Just say that in plain English. So I think the terminology itself can be a little bit of a hurdle. But when you get the concept behind the terminology, like hypostatic union. Okay, I'm sorry.

I want to punch myself in the face when I hear that. That just sounds like two hard words. But then you find out what that means is Jesus is transcendently God. And he's closer than our next breath. So he's transcendent and he's imminent. it. He's accessible. I was at a conference. Sadie, it wasn't a conference. There's a one-night thing last year, and I did not want to go. You know, when you're just tired, and you're like, I don't want to go to another Christian women's event because sometimes it feels like I have to be

perky. And I thought, I just want to stay home in bed with Ben and Jerry and just like eat Cherry Garcia and watch, you know, a cooking show. And, but a friend of mine was doing this event. So I went, and it was fine. Teaching was fine. The music was great. But at the end of the event, she said, we're going to pray right now. And I thought, well, that's cool. Because, you know, so often in Christian culture, we're like, I pray for you every Tuesday at 9. I'm like, what if I'm struggling on Wednesday? So I thought, well, that's cool.

We're actually going to pray here. And so then she asked, I was kind of surprised because it's Nashville. So, you know, a lot of sweater sets and quilted Bible covers. I didn't expect people to be this honest. She asked if women were struggling with loneliness, if they just felt unseen, for them to stand. up so we could really pray. And like, I don't know, like 50 women out of probably 500 stood up. And I thought, now that's legit. That women aren't going, oh, I'm fine now. You know, oftentimes we share our need after we can wrap an acrostick around it, but not when we're in the midst of the egg. So I thought

that's cool. While I'm on the front row and there's this one woman like maybe 10 people down for me, she's standing up. And I thought, I'm going to go over to that woman because she's already confessed she's lonely. This is kind of intimidating. I don't have a whole. lot to bring to the table, but I can hug like a boss, baby. And at 63, your hugs are like, it's not sexualized. You can kind of hug anybody. It's safe. It's like being embraced by Nana. So if I'm run down and I'm just going to hug this woman. So she's not alone. You know, she's prayed for. So I hug her and, you know, I'm hugging her pretty hard. And Christy Nockles was doing the prayer. And Christy's so appropriate and so gentle. I thought it would be a short prayer. And evidently,

Christy was catching up on her reading through the Bible in a year plan because the prayer was like 12 minutes. So after like two minutes, what I thought was going to be just this sweet hug, kind of I see you, turned weird. You're like, okay, this is weird. It was a real tight room. I couldn't back up. She couldn't back up. I got tickled because I thought instead of encouraging her, I'm going to send her reeling into therapy because this is like the longest embrace ever. And so I thought, I'm just going to tell her, I'm sorry, this turned kind of weird. And I kind of pull my head back and she says, I'm so sorry. And I was like, oh, no, no, no, no, I love connecting.

Christy still praying. You know, I'm like, no, no, no, I love this. I love this. And she goes, no, I'm really sorry. And I was like, no, I promise. This is always my favorite part of the men. And she goes, no, I'm really sorry. She said, while I was crying, because this woman's sobbing.

And you know, when I hugged her, it just, it's like the damn broke. And she was really crying. She goes, I got a big glob of snot in your hair. Oh, no. And then you can't unfear it. Oh, no. Oh, my. You did.

And then they had me pray. And I couldn't fix it. You're just so tickled. So I go home, of course, I take a shower. I step out of the shower and I look in the mirror and Sadie, this is what I thought I went. Oh, my goodness. I did 51 Christian events this year. But I'm pretty sure the holiest thing I got to experience was being close enough to another Christ follower

that they got the residue of their heartache in my hair. And then I went, oh, hypostatic union. Because that's the whole point. Wow. Is that this perfect, transcendent God gets close enough to us that we can get the residue of our heartache on his hands, on his feet. It's beautiful. On his head. You go, oh, it's about the closeness of Jesus.

This isn't about religion. It's about relationship with a God who loves us. So these terms can sound academic. But my heavens is about saying. When you dive into the meaning of the terms, it just, I think, gives us the access to much more intimacy with Jesus and a whole lot more hope that this isn't about us getting it right. It's about him being such a good God. It's beautiful. That is beautiful. What a great story to pull from to highlight the meaning of that. Y'all have heard how excited I am about Echle, a new streaming platform built around faith and family entertainment.

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I think one of the things that encourages me so much when I talk about you is your love for the word and your... Actually, my uncle said it like this about my grandfather when he passed away his funeral. He said he never lost the thrill of the word. And I love that, which thrill has been such a word for me this year. But I really felt like, that is so amazing. This is my grandfather who became a Christian in his 20s and he passed away in his 70s. And he never lost the thrill of the word. He would preach it with excitement and thrill

every single time. And there was always wonder and learning new things. And he had his podcast where he would talk about the word. And that's what I see when I see you. Like the older you get and the more you grow and the more you learn and the more you study, you love him even more. And the joy of talking about the Lord pours out of you. I think that sometimes what I've seen online and I've heard, you know, just raffles of, I don't know people like this personally. I've just seen a lot of this. It's like when people go to seminary, a lot of times they come out like hardened. And sometimes like I've have found that some of the most like knowledgeable people of scripture can sometimes be the meanest. And when I say, I don't know personally, I've experienced that backlash on socials.

So I think that like it's very refreshing to hear from someone who knows so much knowledge, but your heart didn't get hard. Your heart's actually like continued to be soft and you still love it. Where do you think like, why does that happen? Why does knowledge puff people up so much and you lose the heart? why do sometimes people go to seminary and they go away? Why do you think that happens? And how have you experienced the opposite of that? It's interesting because you just gave the perfect definition of two terms in theology for the rest of us, noses, which is the Greek word for knowledge. But nosis is more about an accrual of cognitive information. So when you study geometry, miss is in geometry right now. That's nosis. When Paul talks about being knowledgeable, having wisdom, he uses the term in Greek

eponosis, which basically can be loosely translated heart knowledge. So when you're studying these awesome, awesome things about who our God is and how much he loves us, if you go into that from a relational context, instead of, I'm just trying to learn more facts. I can spewis. so I'll sound smart. And Sadie, I did that for decades. I was so afraid because, you know, there's a lot of sexual abuse in my backstory from my earliest memory. I came to know Jesus when I was five, but there had already been some trauma in my story by that point. And from my earliest memory, I felt dirty and I felt damaged. And so, you know, when you're a kid, you don't even know about making a vow. It's just I felt so unworthy. I felt so unworthy. I felt so.

so dirty that I just kind of made this little inward promise that morphed into an idol when I got older that I'm just going to be a good girl. I'm just going to be a good girl. I'm going to keep my head down. I'm going to be a good girl. I'm going to fill in all my Bible study blanks. I'm just going to go to church every time the doors are open. I'm going to help. I mean, I just resolved to be good because I thought there's no way a God like that can actually delight in a dirty girl like me. so I'll just be good. And so by the time I was, you know, in my 20s and my 30s, I knew some big words. And then I went to seminary.

And my first go around for a master's, and I learned more big words. And I hid behind them because I felt like such a, I just felt so, so damaged that I thought I've got to present a better front to the world. because if they see behind, if they see under the hood effectively, they are not going to like who I am. So I held up academics, and I would have called that theology in my theories. I held that up as a facade, kind of just to protect myself so that people wouldn't see, gosh, I may know a big word. I may have studied that passage in the Bible, but today I feel like I don't fit. Today, I feel like I'm too dirty for a good God. today, I don't know how to hang on to faith when my life is really difficult. And when he

began to really teach me, I'm a slow learner, but when he begin to teach me that he loves me as much in those dark, broken places in my life, than he does when I can correctly pronounce, because I mispronounce a whole lot of Greek and Hebrew. Greek and Hebrew, even though I have a doctorate for me, it's kind of like cornhole. You know, I get the bag on the board, but never in the whole, so don't ever repeat my pronunciation. But it's not, again, about the concepts or about the words as much as it is about the heart of this God who loves us. There's two other terms that I think are related to knowledge, dennosis and eponosis. And these are big ones. So don't, don't examine the inside of your eyelids yet, because the truth behind these is epic.

Cataphaatic spirituality and apathetic spirituality. Capaphaficality just means how we understand God by what we know. And that is America. That is Christians on social media. That's, well, my Bible said. That's where you get kind of mean people who are unkind. It's everything we know. Apophatic spirituality.

And you've got to be careful with it because that's where you get apostasy from or even someone who's agnostic. That comes from that root word. But that is a spirituality of connecting. with God by what we can't know as mere humans. Let me break that down. When I brought Missy home from Haiti and she couldn't speak hardly any English, she's four and a half years old, you know, I'm just drilling her with words about God and say, do you know me, I've got too many words. I'm a windbag. And I'm just, you know, there were times I could see by Missy's face I had turned into Charlie Brown's

teacher. It's just what-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w-w. And I thought, but I'm just trying to help her understand how much God loves her. I'm using so many words. And then Holy Spirit poked me one night. You know, we live out in the boonies south of Nashville. And he was like, use less words and introduce wonder into her heart. And so we walked out in the front yard and we laid in the grass and we looked up and there's just all these stars. And I said, baby, God put all those stars in the sky. And she goes, wow.

And I said, he named them. Like every single one of those stars has a name from God, like your name is Missy. They all have names and God gave him names. And she goes, and I said, and baby, the stars we can see, that's just a fraction. There's billions more stars behind those that God made. And then he set them in the sky and he named them for us. And she goes, and I said, Missy, that. named you when Mama Marie was carrying you.

And he knew your first mama would die in Haiti. And he knew there was this old white chick in Nashville, Tennessee, who would become your second mom. And that's how big he is. He knew you then. He numbered your days then. And she went, when you hear apathetic spirituality, you're like, oh, gross, like, just give me plain.

language. But when you hear how important it is to wonder, to have fresh grace, to be freshly amazed over how this big God who set the stars in the sky, numbers of the hair on our heads, you go, oh yeah, I need to walk in light of that more than trying to pretend like I know everything. So bullies on social media, I'm so over it. I just could kick all mean Christians in the shins if I wasn't walking in the fruit of spirit. And sometimes, I so want to because outrage is not a spiritual fruit. And so unkindness over what the Bible says. I'm like, well, actually what the Bible says real clearly is someone who causes division among the brethren. Somebody who's mean on social media would be an application of that. God hates.

Wow. Just say God is disappointed. It uses the strongest language in scripture said God hates someone who causes division. And how foolish it is for us to pretend like our little, finite human minds can comprehend everything there is about God. What a small God he would be if we could perfectly figure him out. So I think the closer you get to God, the more wonder you have, I used to talk smack in my 40s. And I thought I knew a lot, Sadie, because I'd studied a lot. I'm 63 now. I feel like I know less for sure as much as I've studied about God. But man, what I know, I know in the marrow of my bones, he's a good God. He loves us with an everlasting love. We can have a relationship with him. And to be loved by God, to know God, compels us to be in community

and to love each other. I know that. It's beautiful. So good. Lisa. Oh, I'm loving this so much. One word I hear you say a lot is hermeneutics, and that word sounds very intimidating. Can you share a little bit, one, what that word means, and then I have a question. Yeah. Herminetics is effectively the lens through which we understand and interpret scripture. So, for instance, there's a place in Deuteronomy, that's one of the books in the Old Testament, where it says we're to build God's people, are to build parapets. which is just an old-fashioned word for a fence around our roof. And so if you just read that one verse out of socio-historical context, you'd go, oh gosh,

well, let me just ask you, do you and, and I know this answer because I've been there, do you and Christian have a fence around your roof? No, ma'am. Sinner, you're a big fat sinner, Sadie, because the Bible says. Well, the reason God told his people in Deuteronomy build a fence fence, around your roof is because they had small homes. And so when they entertained, when people came over for dinner to play Pictionary, they did that usually on the roof. So God is saying they have no electricity. So if it happens to be a dark night, he's like, hey, you could have people get to the edge of your roof and they could fall off. That's not about architecture, it's about community care. So he's saying, just make sure you care for people when they come over. Told you, I live in the boonies in Nashville. We've got a steep driveway. When it's icy in Nashville, I tell people park at the bottom. of our driveway, and we'll come pick you up in the gator, because when you leave to go home tonight, I don't want you to slide off the driveway. That effectively is what God was saying in Deuteronomy.

He's saying, hey, care for the people who come over to your house. Well, in order to understand that, hermeneutics are important. The way you look at that passage in Deuteronomy and you go, huh, who was the original audience here? Oh, it's an ancient, it's an ancient culture. They had flat ruse, you go, oh, now I understand the takeaway. So to have a proper hermeneutic as we study scripture, you know, there's really, really well-intentioned people who believe in order to really have faith, you have to wrestle with a venomous snake. And people tease about people like that. And I'm like, don't tease about people like that. Those are well-intentioned Christians who've never had a spiritual leader say, actually when Jesus said you can wrestle with poisonous snakes and not die if they bite you, the word there in the original language, the New Testament was originally written mostly in Greek, a little bit of Aramaic, had to do with a demonic entity.

So he's saying you can be around bullies, you can be around dark things, and it's not going to kill you because I've got you. I have a high thorny hedge of protection around you. It's not talking about wrestling with rattlesnakes. And so, again, to understand scripture, you have to have a hermeneutic that says, okay, who's the original audience? Why was God saying this to them? And all of these principles move forward. The Bible is not a museum piece.

It's relevant today. Every single verse is accurate. It's true. It's relevant today. But we've got to be responsible as we read it. go, okay, if Song of Solomon was, you know, if it's 3,000 years old Hebraith poetry, is it really God's version of the Kama Sutra? Or was God talking about the kind of relational intimacy we can have with him?

So that's why hermeneutic, big word, the concept is having an accurate lens as you read scripture. So you don't take verses out of context and become a bully on social media. This is great. This is so good. So helpful. We've gotten so used to flipping something over. and reading the label before we buy it.

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Visit good ranchers.com slash woe to get $50 off. And remember to fill out their survey after the order and make sure to let them know that we sent you there. That's good ranchers.com slash woe for $50 off. That's good ranchers.com American meat delivered. I wanted to ask that because that was really good for me to understand. You know, I love your podcast back porch sale. So I've heard you say that one. a lot and I've heard you break it down. And it's very important people understand that because I've heard you and several other pastors say this to me recently, something that they feel very passionate about, is that for a young generation people like myself who are preaching the Word of God on a

public platform, it is very important that you have good hermeneutics. It's very important that you are understanding scripture as your teaching scripture. And one of the fears, red flags, I would say people have been raising is that there are a lot of public figures on social media who kind of know just enough to be dangerous, who throw out these scriptures and then their interpretation of them. And whether it's right or wrong, if it sounds good, it gets a lot of traction. And some of the more shocking ones or the more angry ones or whatever it is tend to get more attention. Therefore, people will continue to produce it because that's the content that's working. Sure. But it's very dangerous and can be very hurtful. And so I think one of the things I've been

really encouraged by with you and several other people encouraging me, like, hey, in today's day and age, it is so important that you continue to learn and grow in your knowledge of scripture that you're surrounded with good voices that are helping you through this. And I 100% agree. And I'm very grateful for that. So I just wanted to shout that out because I do think that is something happening culturally that is dangerous when it comes to social media and people building followings on them and their interpretation of scripture that can be pretty far from accurate. And people would agree with it because it had a lot of likes, had a lot of reshares, had a lot of comments. Right. Not because it's actually true.

Or it rhymes. Yeah. It sounds punchy. Yeah. Yeah. I think two real practical takeaways, Sadie. one would be don't judge, don't throw more rocks at somebody who's a bully, pray for them. But if someone's using one or two verses and they're building a philosophy that they're calling a theology based on that one or two verses, that's super dangerous.

Make sure you understand the entire book of that book of the Bible. Make sure you understand what was going on because people love to slice and die. eyes, and then they present a verse with their preference. And I'm like, that is not at all what God was saying there. When you back up and go, oh, where is Paul preaching? What was he saying big picture? I've heard so many people take one verse, and I'm like, that is actually the exact opposite. If you would just read the whole letter, we forget, it's an entire sermon.

The book of Hebrews is an entire sermon. Yeah. If you take one word out, and I know this has happened to you, it happens to everybody in our culture. People have taken one sentence that I've said when I was teaching a conference, and that one sentence, I was at a church last year. And I was teaching on Ephraim and Manasseh, two brothers, Old Testament. It's so cool because in that culture, the little brother got Nodagh, the big brother got the entire inheritance. It's called the Law of Primogeniture. And when Abraham, when Jacob goes to bless them, Joseph has just come back from being away in Egypt.

So the granddaddy hadn't seen his grandkids in forever. He goes to bless them. When he blesses him, he crosses his arms. And he puts his right hand. That's the hand of blessing in biblical culture. That's why you'll never hear that Jesus said at the left hand of God the Father. Right hand is a hand of favor. But granddaddy crosses his arms and blesses the baby boy.

And Joseph basically says, Dad, your cataracts have gotten so bad, you bless the wrong boy. And he says, no, I knew exactly what I was doing. I wanted to bless your younger son. Manasse said the elder, he's going to be fine. But I wanted to bless your younger son. And it's a huge pivot point, theoretically, because what God is doing is saying there's no hierarchy in the family of God.

There are no firstborns and secondborns. The secondborns have my faith. In other words, all of my children are my favorite. All of my children, regardless of gender, ethnicity. All of my children have inherent dignity. Well, my point was, we are all God's favorites. That is the grace that is over Scripture. If you put your hope in Jesus Christ, we are his favorites.

There's no hierarchy. Well, somebody took a sentence I said, and I said, God does play favorites. Well, then I said, and we're all it. Yeah. But they just put, God does play favorites. Yeah. And then just made this whole point of why women should never have a microphone in a spiritual

setting. Yeah. And I thought you have cut and paste it. And of course, I didn't say anything. It's like you can't really have conversations with bullies. But I thought that's the danger of our culture is you take a sound bite and wrap a whole theology on it. And I'm like, oh, if you're following people who do that, and especially if they tend to use the Bible as a club to bully or beat some other segment of society over the head, I'm like,

be really careful. Be wise in who you're following back up. And you don't have to go to seminary. Just get a study Bible. A decent study Bible. NIV has a new application Bible. And at the beginning of every book gives you context of that letter. It gives you the overall theme. It gives you the major characters, if we would spend as much time in our Bibles as we do curating reels, I'm telling you it would change so much for us. That's a word. That's good. That's so true. Okay, I have an interesting question. Well, it's simple and interesting in our cultural context. So I love your questions. I love that you write about, you know, you go through all of these different theological points. But one of the things that you hit on is the Amago Day, which I love to talk about

the Amaga Day, we're made in the image of God. But one thing that I found super interesting in our cultural moment is a few years ago, we were at this conference, and it was a conference in London. It was not, I mean, it is a Christian conference, but it's also like what's happening in the world. There's a lot of people who have a lot of, I guess, they're leaders in a lot of different contexts, not just like the church, it's like political leaders. And there was like the queen of somewhere. There was all these really interesting leaders. Well, one of the things that's so, many of them came back to, and some of them weren't even believers who talked about this. Even like mathematicians were talking about this. They were talking about the thing that makes humans

different than AI, right? What makes us different? What makes us more special? It makes us better. Would be the belief that we are made in the image of God. And multiple of them actually said the Amago Day. And again, people who weren't even believers were admitting on the stage these leaders. I am wrestling with this idea that I would have to believe in this concept of the Amago Day to separate us from what would make us special, what would give us that breath. So I actually feel like it's so important that we understand what the Amago Day is. And when we have this conversation with AI happening, like what makes humans special? What makes us matter if we have this thing that is better than us now, smarter than us now, has all the capabilities we have, but more. Has more cognitive information.

Right, right, right. But again, as you pointed out, knowledge is very different than wisdom. Yeah. So noses, an accumulation of cognitive data, yeah, I mean, the dynkeest AI can retain more data than my 63-year-old brain. But AI doesn't have the image I bear God's thumbprint. Imago Day, and that comes from Latin, means image of God. And if you're going to get it tattooed, capitalize the D. because day stands for God.

So if you have Imago little D, get your tattoo artist to change it to a big D because that means image of any, any God. So that could be the image of Scooby-Doo. Make sure you capitalize a D in Amago Day. That's my nana coming out with anybody who wants to get that tattoo. But it's based on, it's rooted in Genesis 1, 26, and 27, where God says, let us, and that denotes the Trinity. How cool is that that God is an us?

So our God doesn't just mandate community. He models it. Wow. God, the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit, Holy Spirit did just come on the scene in Acts chapter 2. Jesus didn't just happen in the New Testament. All three have been there since the very beginning. God said, let us make mankind humanity in our likeness.

And it says so he made us, male and female, he made us in his image, in their image. In other words, every single human being, regardless of ethnicity, regardless of gender, regardless of age, regardless of demographics, every single human being has inherent divinely imbued dignity. Now, here's what's super cool about that is that means even people who are bullies on social media, even people who don't know God, even people who are agnostic, actually are Amagoday. They bear God's image. And I think if even Christians could believe that and begin to embody that, then instead of these massive, angry walls of separation between people groups, you'd go, where can I find God's thumbprint in them? Where can I have empathy with them? where can I be an empathetic witness with their life? Maybe they're so angry because they were never

loved well when they were little, or maybe they were wounded by somebody who says their Christian was hyper-judgmental. And so if we as Christians, and we believe this comes from the Bible, but if we begin to actually practice every single person I'm going to rub shoulders with today on the interstate in the grocery store bears God's image, even if they're acting like a fanny, they've got in inherent dignity imbued by God, even if they don't confess them yet, that starts to change society. That's when the church actually begins to act redemptively because we love people well, whether they reciprocate or not. We treat people with dignity instead of treating people like their trash. Another really cool thing, Sadie, is those words aren't in the Bible Amago Day. It's based on

biblical concepts. But when they were first preached and understood back in the second century by a named Bishop of Lions, I're anace. He connected it to what was going on culturally with kings. So a king or a leader of a province, you know, they didn't have planes, trains, and automobiles. They didn't have Zoom. They didn't have FaceTime. So a king may be over, you know, a people group way over there, but he couldn't get there. He was over here. Let's just say he's over here in Nashville, and he can't get to West Monroe, Louisiana. So they would arrest. a statue, an image of that king, let's just call him Bob. They would erect a statue of Bob in West Monroe. So when you walked by the statue, going to get coffee, you'd go, oh, that's right. Bob,

Bob is taking care of us. Bob is providing for us. You're reminded when you see that statue. So Iranais said, we bear God's image. So as God's people, you want to act in a way that other people see you and go, oh, we have a good God who cares for me. So there's both dignity in the concept of Amago Day and there's responsibility. If we bear God's image as Christ's followers, everybody bears God's image. But we know it's rooted in scripture, then act like it. It's good. Sometimes when you look around in the world and see all the bad things going on, it can feel impossible to know where to start and how you can make an impact. But I love when there's a way to

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Okay, so as I was like reading through all of the different things that you talk about in this book, It was like just thinking about how grateful I am for the word of God because this is a book that's telling us like, well, one, it's not about us. Yes, it's about God. So I don't want you to hear this out of context. But it does tell us who we are, where we come from, where we're going. And like. And we matter. Yeah. And that you matter. I think something that you assume, theologically, is the more I study God, the more I'll feel like gum under somebody's shoe. And I'm like, that that's not true. Again. In Amago Day, we matter to God. Are we perfect? No, we're prone to wander. Yes. But he calls us valuable. He's for us, not against us.

Yes. So I love that you picked up on that. No, it's not about us. And yet the gospel, we're the objects of his affection. So we're in the story and we matter. Yeah. Like it's so amazing because you do. You feel so loved.

You feel so I have a purpose. There's a point to this life. And it's like, okay, here's our history. And then here's a promise for our future. And I don't know if you don't have the word of God, if you don't have the hope in heaven, if you don't have a relationship with God, how do you do it? How do you get through the day and feel any hope or a purpose or unless you just distract yourself in this life enough to where you don't have to think about those things? And you try not to have those big questions.

But I feel like everyone has to come up with those. big questions at some point. Sure. And the more I read, okay, I don't know if everybody's algorithm is like this, but if I'm on YouTube, it is like, and it's probably because I do follow a lot of deep thinkers. Like I like to follow people who are having conversations that are happening in the world right now and where they think things are going. And then I also follow a lot of pastors and a lot of different podcasts.

So granted, my algorithm might not be like every other 29-year-old right now. But it is very interesting because if you're having this conversation in AI, it's like, oh, we can't survive the next decade with the way it's going to take over. And then you see these other things. And it's like, we can't survive the next decade because of this. And it's like, oh, Jesus is coming back and then the next 10 years. And what is it? And I'm like, I'm just trying to like scroll my phone at a casual moment to go to the bathroom. And now I'm thinking about the end of the world.

But I figure other people are thinking about this too. Sure. look at our climate, look at the things that are happening. You can't avoid this topic. Now, you see a lot of pastors now, or not even, I mean, a lot of podcasts kind of, and it's like the end times and this, that and the other. You do address like the word apoculus, what that means, what end times mean? What do we know? What do we not know? What can we find hope in? What do we not need to like waste our time listening to? Is that an okay question to ask? Oh, gosh, yes. Now, I'll give you my opinion here. So I can't tell you this is, this is my opinion based on scripture, but it's, I'm probably going to step on a few toes now. I think a lot of the volatility that you see now around the end times is partly due to algorithms because somebody who's calm and says, listen, if you're going to stockpile lentils at Costco, make sure you're making soup for the neighborhood.

and not becoming this rabat hole fearful Christianity, because that's not biblically defensible. Mark 14 is one of my favorite, the word eschatology, which again sounds kind of scary. And it's just about the end times. Absolutely we're in the end times because Jesus described what we would call the end times of the latter days in the New Testament as the time between his first advent. That's the first time Jesus came incarnate. He became like us, so as to save us, about 2,000 years. years ago, and his return where he'll come back and claim his bride. And that's when, that's when things are restored and redeemed. That's what, what we read in scripture is the New Jerusalem,

or capital G, glory. And so the time period between Jesus' first Advent and the second Advent, those are the latter days. And so even back then, people were getting all panicked. And what do we do and can we survive another 10 years? And what Jesus effectively says, Sadie, it's profound. He quotes basically from his own crucifixion. And he talks about how the earth will quake and the sky will open up and the moon will be covered. All you have to do is read the end of Matthew and you go, oh, he's describing his own crucifixion. He points to the temple and he tells his disciples, those, you won't see those stones anymore. Well, the temple was destroyed. It's second temple in 72 AD. He's not talking smack. He's saying you won't have that brick and mortar building

to worship anymore. But then he basically says, he says, it's going to be really hard. He says, brother will turn against brother. So it's, it's, you know, it's sober. But then he basically says, these are Braxton Hicks. These are just birth pains. This is the world groaning. And he says, I don't want you to be afraid. And he said, be alert. Don't be afraid. And then Jesus says, Dad hasn't told me when I'm coming back.

So even Jesus, during his incarnate ministry, did not know for sure the end times. It's so crazy to me that we've got mere humans going, I can tell you exactly what, to the day and to the hour, based on how I interpret. And I'm like, first of all, Revelation is prophetic. and it's very problematic if you take, that's where hermeneutics come to play. And so there's times he speaks very symbolically in Revelation.

And he very rarely is speaking literally when it comes to time. Also, God completely redefines time by saying with me, a day is like a thousand years, thousand years is like a day. So to put time in Revelation in a 24-hour time period, I think is hermeneatically irresponsible. But I go back to what Jesus says. My mind can't figure out everything is going on geopolitically and AI and whether it's the end of times. But I can read this true love story called the Bible where God says, don't be afraid.

I'm not going to leave you. I'm not going to forsake you. The boundary lines for you will fall in pleasant places. I will protect you. Leave grain at the edge of your field. So make sure you're kind of foreigners and people who are in trouble. Make the most of these latter days. Make sure you love people.

That's how they'll know you're my disciples. Be alert. Have your antenna up. So sure, we can recognize the times and go, I don't know how much longer culture as a whole. I don't know how much longer this is sustainable. Well, anybody can say that. Well, if we don't know, then make today count.

It's great. We have the next hour. Do the next right thing. Love as hard as you can hard. Risk well. But don't be afraid. Jesus said, don't be so afraid that you stockpile stuff in barns. He said, if the sparrows are perfectly taken care of, not one tiny little bird falls to the ground without me caring for it.

This is in Matthew. you, how much more will I care for you? Again, go back to Amago Day. Are we just automatones that God doesn't care for? Or are we children? We're children. We bear his image. At some level, we look like our dad. He's the one who tells us that. So I think to look at, to read all this stuff on social media, it really is a doom scroll. And I'd say, get out of social media, get in the Bible. And if you'll get in the Bible, it'll give you a healthy, framework for all that volatility right now. And then just say, God, give me wisdom. And so if you feel like, okay, I do think, I can't imagine, let's just say your own situation, I don't know if Kit will live

to be an old woman based on, based on whatever you want to say, what's happening geopolitically, what's happening, you know, just in our environment, you know, are we going to have no more protection from UV rays? Oh, golly, everybody's a naysayer. Well, if you do, if you do, you don't know for sure if Kit will live to be a 90-something-year-old and have a scooter with racing stripes like I plan to have, then how can you love Kit really well today? Yeah. How can you raise that beautiful baby girl and honey and Haven up to love God and love people? So do the best you possibly can today.

Because we don't know what tomorrow holds, but we know who holds it. We know God holds it. We know he loves us, so we're not going to get kicked to the curb in some horrible terrible kind of way. If we're God's people, he says, I've got you. Don't be afraid. Be alert. That's so good.

I love that. Don't be afraid. Be alert. It's okay to be alert and aware of what's happening. We should be. He tells us to be. Afraid. That's so good.

The way you broke that down was so, so beautiful. The last thing I want to ask is we wrap this up is this is a different kind of scroll, not Doom Scroll, but the Dead Sea Scroll. The reason I want to bring this up is because if someone's saying, okay, yes, there's this beautiful love story. How can I know that it's real? How can I know that it's true? I do feel like we are in such an amazing time in history

that there has been so many things happen to affirm that the Bible is truly the, you know, word of God. Can you tell us a little bit about the Dead Sea Scrolls who someone's like, I've heard of that, but I don't really understand what that means? How can you trust that this actually is the written word of God? Oh, it's epic. And I'd say, you know, for the people who love, you and come hang out with you every Wednesday, but aren't really sure that the Bible is true

or that God is real and accessible, or that Jesus is the only way to be reconciled with God, the Father. I'm like, just lean into them. Bring every single question you have. You do not have to be polite to pursue God. Go, I don't believe that. Or that scares me. If you'll actually lean into God, I have so many friends who are brilliant with PhDs who you, you're used to be agnostic. And they said, when I honestly brought my brain and my heart to God, he revealed himself to be true. I just couldn't deny it. So Dead Sea Scrolls and especially, well, it's great for people who love Jesus and people who aren't sure he's, he's real or if the Bible's true. Okay, in the 60s, this is what's so cool to me. There's this shepherd boy in Israel.

He's literally hurting sheep and goats. And some of his goats scramble up. this steep, rocky incline. So he throws a rock because he don't want to hike up there in the heat. He throws a rock to try to get the goats to come down. And the rock makes a hollow sound. And like most teenage boys with a lot of testosterone, he thinks, huh.

And so he scrambles up because he's just curious. And he finds these water jars that are 2,000 years old. And in the water jars, there's some scrolls. And so they end up being the beginning. Now, these discoveries went on for like three and four years, end up being the beginning of the dead sea strolls, which means way back in the day, and this before we had computers,

we didn't have printing press, we didn't have copiers, way back in the day to preserve a document, you had scribes, because most people couldn't read and write, only the wealthy could go to school. She had scribes, and they would write down the word of God,

because much of the Word of God had been given an oral tradition, telling stories. So they would write that down on animal skins, on hides, on parchment. They didn't have a lot of paper back then, so parchment was rare. But they'd roll those scrolls and they'd save them because, again, we didn't have computers, you didn't have hard drives. Well, they'd try to go, how can we save these for future generations? So they can unroll the scrolls and read them. well, it's a real arid climate in the Middle East.

So we'll keep them in these water jars. That way they're going to be in a cave. They should be protected from the elements. Well, this people group, they're called the Ascenes, is who they think wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls. So these are copies of the Old Testament. So what, you know, the first five books we call the, a lot of people call that the whole Old Testament Torah,

but Torah is the first five books. And it's the understanding. It's the law. Well, all those books of the Old Testament were written on these scrolls and stored. So this precious little Middle Eastern boy, what's crazy is he's from a family of the wolf, is the way you translate his name from the Middle East. But he's a shepherd boy. Okay, how cool?

It's crazy. You have all these brilliant archaeologists for hundreds of years trying to dig up important stuff in Israel. And it's a shepherd boy that the word is revealed to. Sound familiar? That's crazy. God's sense has only begotten sun, and it's not some busy person in a gated community that gets invited to when the Messiah is born,

but it's shepherds who are illiterate nomads that people thought were petty thieves. Like, you would invite a shepherd to clean your garage. You wouldn't invite them to a party. And God says, I'm going to reveal Jesus to shepherds first. How cool is that? And then in the 60s. I mean, this is our lifetime.

I was born in 63. Wow. The Dead Sea Scroll. are found and Sadie, what's so cool about him is it proves that the Christian Bible predates other religious writings. So prior to the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, people said, oh, well, the Christian Bible is actually a later document. So it's not as religious. It's not as legitimate, I should say, as these other religious texts. Well, the Dead Sea Scrolls prove, uh-uh, the Christian God.

predates, based on the writing of these scrolls, predates other religious texts because there's other religious groups that would tell the stories different. And so we find out, oh, the story of the story of Abraham and Isaac. And it's Isaac that Abraham put on the stone. And God provided a ram. And that's a foreshadowing of Jesus that I'm going to provide for you. You do not have to sacrifice your son, I'm sending mine to reconcile to you myself. All those stories predate other religious texts and you go, the Bible's true. And this is proven by scholars. So these are not Christians trying to do some op-ed and prove it. These are scholars. These are archaeologists. The problem is there have been so many forgeries because in that part of the world, you know, something that's a

religious relic, whether it's somebody finds an old coin or somebody finds a mosaic that depicts Jesus, sometimes they'll fake those to make money. And so where some people go, well, I heard the Dead Sea Scrolls aren't true, well, that's because there have been a lot of Dead Sea forgeries. And people would make a lot of money going, this is a Dead Sea Scroll. And if you didn't have a historian who could read that ancient Hebrew, who could tell that papyrus was that old and it was from that, they couldn't verify. That's where they got a little bit of a negative reputation for a while and people go, oh, I heard they're all fakes. Well, there were some forgeries of the Dead Sea Scrolls that were sold for money because people, you know, are always going to do cheat for money, bad people.

But the original Dead Sea Scrolls, oh, my heavens to Betsy. You know what's so cool. They found the entire scroll of Isaiah. Wow. And Sadie, it's, there was one word. I think that was different than the Isaiah we have in our Christian Bibles. So you go, oh, it's true. It's true. It wasn't a bunch of men who made this up. This was breathed by God. You know, Paul had to make up a whole new word for the Bible.

Theo, that means God, noostos, that's for breath. God breathed. So the Dead Sea Scrolls from my lifetime in the 60s prove that this Bible we hold in our hands is a divine love story. God breathed it and it predates other religious texts. So it just proves the legitimacy and the historicity of the Bible. That is so cool. Okay, amazing. Lisa, I just want to say thank you.

Thank you so much for the years and years and years of studying that you've done and then pouring it out to us so that we can know more about God, love him more. I always pray before this podcast that the listener would, you know, feel more known and loved by God, and they would want to know and love God more. And I think this is the ultimate episode of like, I pray that you're leaving this one to know and love God more. And thank you, Lisa, for knowing and loving him so much. For everyone listening, if you're geeking out and you're like,

we're just getting started. You've got to go get the book, Theology for the rest of us. Go dive in. Tell us what you're learning from it. Tell us what gets you excited. I know Lisa would love to hear it. But thank you again for coming on the podcast. This was so fun.

Oh, Sedi, I love you so much. Thank you for, I know my stories get long and you are such a gracious. Are you kidding? I love it. I'm on the edge of my seat every time. If we ever like hang out, not doing a podcast, not a conference, I think we literally stay up all night long talking. Oh, 100%. Well, you know you and Christian are coming because you and I are going to, I've got the efoil fever now,

but you and Christian and I are tubing with the kids and wake surfing. Yes, we are. So Christian's going to teach me some new tricks. I love it. I love it. You're the best. Thank you.