WHOA That's Good Podcast - Shame Came For My Marriage- But God | Sadie & Christian Huff | Jeff & Jourdan Johnson

Episode Date: May 27, 2026

Sadie and Christian sit down with worship pastors and “Open Spaces” podcast hosts Jeff and Jourdan Johnson for a conversation about secrets, surrender, and what happens when hidden struggles finally come to light. Jeff opens up about living a double life before marriage, and Jourdan shares what it looked like to respond with grace while still walking through her own questions, hurt, and healing. They encourage counseling, community, confession, and stand by how Jesus met them in the places they thought might break their story.  This Episode of WHOA That's Good is Sponsored By: http://shop.taylordukeswellness.com/whoa — Get 15% off sitewide anytime + for the next 48 hours, you can also unlock 2 free gifts with any full-size protein purchase! https://drinkag1.com/whoa — Get an AG1 Flavor Sampler and a bottle of Vitamin D3+K2 FREE in your Welcome Kit with your first AG1 subscription (a $72 value!) when you use my link! https://www.ponchooutdoors.com/whoa — Get $10 off and free shipping on your first order! - Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

What's up, everybody. Happy World That's Good Wednesday. I hope you're having a great week, but per usual, it is about to get so much better because we have some incredible guests here in Louisiana today. And I have to mention my co-host, Christian. It's also on the podcast. But we have Jeff and Jordan Johnson, and we are so excited that y'all are here. So excited to be here. Kind of been a long time coming. It has been. I mean, we've known each other for a long time, but this is like so exciting for us. It's so cool. We've known each other for a very long time. time through passion because y'all are the worship pastors at passion which is so amazing and i've always we have looked up to y'all so much from afar i mean it's like what did we used to call them

oh my gosh i guess i should say goals but i think it had a word for them we were like oh my gosh it no it was and not to like not that y'all are old by any means but we were like we were quite a bit older than you're like we were like we want to look like we want to look like them like we want to like raise a family just the way that y'all had posed about your kids and the things are at y'all's age but we want to still look like you and then we also want to look like them they're so beautiful and crushing it and no and then i remember y'all always you're like no no we're like yeah yeah y'all are awesome that's amazing also interesting sadie um something in a joke in our home is that every time we need a babysitter i'm always like see if sadie can do it because here's the why because you're i always want you to

be around our daughter aiden because i want aden to turn out like you that's so sweet so every time jordan's like Call me. I'll bring my three kids with us and we'll have a great time. Now it's a little harder with your family. Spending money. Come to the Johnson's house and push you to work. But legit.

Y'all are amazing. We've always looked at to y'all. I thought you guys were just incredible. And we said this to y'all, like the more we get to know you, the more we think that. And the more we love y'all, the more we look up to y'all. But it was really sweet because I guess we knew y'all from afar, really, because we would see you up closed like backstage but it would be like in passing and y'all were leading and um normally whenever i would be at passion it would be a moment i'm speaking so i would be very like distracted by trying to prepare

so we never really got to like know each other a lot and then when was it was it last passion last year two years ago or two years ago when we yeah had dinner with friends to get a year and a half coming about a year and a half ago and we finally go to lunch and at a friend's house emily and bryson who we And I was telling you all that y'all are like our Insta goals. And we love following y'all on Instagram. And you always joke that you're an influencer, but you are. Not like you. I'm dabbling.

I'm dabbling in his influencer era. No, but you're crushing it. And we were like, no, we love it. And you were like, and I said, like, tell me y'all's story. I was like, you guys, y'all just seemed like y'all are made for each other. I can't remember what I said. And you all, you were like, oh. Get ready.

Buckle up. It's loaded. And I was like, really? Like, I don't, I couldn't imagine it. And then we went there. And then we went there. And I was like, wow. And then I was like, I want y'all to come on my podcast and share this because this is so inspiring that y'all are being so open.

And it was right before you launched your own podcast. That's right. Like right before. And y'all were, you know, just carrying the weight of it and nervous about it. And just seeing what God has done in the past year and a half from afar, from y'all being open to sharing your story has just been so encouraging to me and I'm so proud of y'all as like to see friends and so thankful for your voice and so we're glad that you came on my podcast this year so honored to be here it means so much so much so for everyone looking at y'all being like

okay y'all are the picture perfect little couple like we were um let's get into the story okay so how did y'all meet i'll start there jordan take it okay you can tell we met when i was 19 he had just graduated from college and we met at a church in Dallas. I was just working there for the summer and we were asked to lead worship together. It was a church plant. So everybody was kind of doing everything. And so we met to lead worship. Like we met briefly. It's kind of set up though. The pastor was like, y'all should know each other. That's true. But I was dating someone else at the time. Oh shoot. I know. Are you dating long distance at the time? No, we just like met and became I'm the other guy?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I was, I was, like, living in Florida. I was at Florida State, and this was just my summer, so I came out to Dallas to work at this church. And we were dating, and then, and Jeff and I just became very fast friends. Like, immediately, I'm like, this guy's so fun. He's so, like, just engaging, and he's not trying to prove anything.

Like, I just really, like, noticed that immediately. And then we just, that summer, we just became really close friends. I did end up breaking up with the other guy. And we, we. Okay. Just take, that's good. Yeah, I did that. Let's just take a minute for that.

Thank you, Lord. But we just remained friends. Like we kept in touch. I went back to Florida State. We kept in touch. And then eventually, the following summer, I came back to work at that church again. We started dating. And that began our, like, long intense saga of dating.

So we were long distance at first, and we ended up breaking up because, basically because of that. Like, we were just in two different seasons. of life. It was not, you know, we were not getting each other. And then I ended up moving to Dallas. We ended up getting back together. And so at some point, we had probably been in, it was probably about five years in, of knowing each other and having this round of dating, we'd been over a year. We're like, I'm like mid-20s. We're, it's serious. So we're like, okay. And our whole journey was 10 years of dating. So like, we're in the middle of the 10 year.

You just like ruin the punch. Oh, sorry. Okay, never mind. We're not there yet. But anyway, at this point, it's like five years in, I'm like in love with this person. We're looking at the future and we're kind of at a crossroads. Like we've been together for long enough that it seems like we should know where we're heading. But we weren't there yet. So I was like, I started kind of digging in and I was getting insecure and I was just questioning what was happening and what was going on in our relationship.

And in a conversation one day, Jeff mentioned something that was kind of vague, but it kind of was this, it definitely was this indicator like, okay, there's something deeper going on here. And so I pressed him on it. And I could tell he didn't want to talk about it, which made me even more curious. And I'm like, well, this seems pretty significant. So, like, I think we need to go there if we're going to be, like, if we're going to keep moving forward. So we got together one night to, to talk about whatever this thing was. Yeah, but you also said in two days. Yeah, I gave him an ultimatum. I was like, okay, well, we need to talk about this. You clearly need some time. But like, how about we talk, like, how about we give it a couple of days?

And then we can come around this. So we did. So, yeah, those two days later we meet. And, I mean, I was, like, terrified to meet because this is like I was carrying something that was so vulnerable that I had never said out loud. And so it was very much, I had never shared it with one person.

And so we get together, we sit down. It takes me a while and I don't remember exactly how it all came out. But I finally told her, like, I love being with you. I love, like, how much fun we have. But something about me that you don't know is that, like, I have been living, like, this double life. Like, I am same-sex attracted. And I don't remember all the words I said in that moment, but it was basically telling her that, like, I had my whole life. I had felt like I was different than other guys.

and like I didn't know what to do with those attractions, and then I had acted out in it. And so it was just this whole moment of me telling her who I really was, and we're years in. So we know each other so well, and she's like hearing it for the first time. So I'm thinking, you know, once I tell her this, like she's, it's done. Like she's out.

Like she will, you know, okay, that's too much for me. And like, this is impossible. But what I was met with when I told her, you know, of my attractions, and like what I had been doing on the side and like what my life really looked like and opened up to her was that she moved towards me and she was truly like the grace of God in my life where she her response to me was not to move away but her response was I believe Jesus has something big for us and and I want to be in it with you and I'm moving towards you and not away and so we can figure this out together and I feel like there's something here for us wow you were not expecting that It was the last thing that I was expecting.

And so then you're left with like, well, I thought, oh, it's kind of like whiplash. I thought you would have, this was it. And now you're saying that. So then what? So now what? Now you know the deepest part of me. And you're not leaving and you're saying you want to stay in this. So now what do we do?

And we were like a couple years in. So then now what do we do? You know, like then it became. What was your, like were you surprised? Like how did you respond? Yeah. so graciously with like your surprise like were you shocked i was i don't remember feeling completely shocked but it wasn't like i suspected it like i it was more like i the the feeling that i

remember the most was relief because it was like okay finally like i understand you and i understand like why this has been tense and i i this thing is unlocked that was missing and so i i feel Like that was the predominant feeling. Like it wasn't what I expected, but it was like, okay. That's really cool. That's like, I don't have any context for this. Like, I had no context for anyone. I had no one in my life that was gay.

No one in my life that had any ever mentioned same-sex attraction or like struggling through that. So I didn't know how to do that, you know. And yeah, I mean, I really had a very, very black and white. framework of my faith and of what, you know, sin was and what struggle was. And I just did not, I didn't have a lot to give me context. So then we just kind of fumbled through. And we broke up two more times. I mean, we were like doing our best, but it was like, this was hard. And it was hard to figure out, it wasn't hard to like figure out how to love someone through that. That was not hard. but it was hard to figure out like how to how I can't give you the courage you need or I can't give you

the belief you need I believe for us but I can't make you and and then just and and then he was still really wrestling like can I do this I really wanted to believe that for us but like I just had no no discipleship in it I had no one leading me I had never told anybody so like why would I mean I didn't have anyone to look up to of like you know so this this guy has let's let you know this guy has talked about this openly. And like, so I was just like searching for anyone. Like, does anyone understand me? Does anyone, can anyone relate to what I'm feeling? And it just was a challenge. Because like when I became a Christian, you know, I had become a Christian, actually my junior in college at a passion conference. And so, and I had in that moment when I responded to the gospel and

I was like, oh, this is like a relationship. It's not just religion that I had grown up with. And when I entered that, I was like all these promises to. God of like, yeah, I'm never, I'm never going to do that thing. You know, for me, it was same sex attraction. I'm never going to like act out in that again. I made all these promises, but I didn't have any discipleship of like, okay, there's a sanctification process here. So we were figuring that out. That was what was happening in our dating of me. And we were in counseling. So that was a huge part of it was we started going to counseling together. And that was really giving us some tools for our like relational tension and growing deeper together. But we were, we, we started to do. But we, we're

didn't have anybody in our community that knew because we were just, we felt like this was something that we needed to keep to ourselves at first. And so it was, it was a major journey. And so, and then I'm like, you know, he has no mentors in this, in this particular space. And so I'm like, I'm taking too much responsibility for like trying to help him where I'm like, you know, well, you shouldn't go here and you shouldn't do this. And like, what do I know? What do I know? Nothing. But it's like I was kind of trying to be the Holy Spirit. it kind of roll. If you've been listening for a little while, then you've heard me say that I'm really

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com. At what point were you able to get a mentor? So at the time, is it just you two and your counselor that know this? Basically. Yeah. And then do you find a mentor before you get married? Well, no. What I did is I found community before we got married.

I actually figured out with, I had a band at the time, and so I opened up to one of my band members, and then him, he was the first person and I had to figure out what it was like for me to be in a healthy relationship with the guy and like how to actually be vulnerable with him and share what my mind was doing and, you know, with this struggle in particular,

there's so much shame and so much, it really is just the enemy's plan is shame in it. You know, just like, let's just shame you and silence you. And so I was learning how to have a voice and actually voice what I was feeling and that happened through my community. So it was a friend, then it was another friend, and it just kind of opened up with our counselors' help, with the community

that we were, like, building and these people's really trusted people. And all of that led to the place where by the time we got married, what was amazing was that when we got married, there was nothing that we did not know about each other at that point, you know. And there were not everyone in the room, but a lot of the people in the room knew all of it, you know, and they had walked with us. And so that was... I love when you told us that, when you told us your story. like that y'all's wedding was such a celebration. Like, and how everyone, like, when you walked down the aisle, it was just like.

Everybody stood up and cheered. Yeah. It was just so sweet because even if they didn't know what the details, everyone knew at that point we had been through a lot and it had been 10 years. And we were standing on the other side of something miraculous. And so that was, it was really amazing to be able to celebrate that. Yes. How long was y'all's engagement for?

Two and a half months. Two and a half months. After 10 years, there's nothing else to know. It's like... I was assuming it was a short engagement. Oh, it was so quick. I got to say, I got to rewind for today. I have some questions too.

So many questions. This is so good. This is why I love y'all so much. And I just, I'm so thankful for your vulnerability. This is like so helpful because so many people, like you said, you didn't have that person that you could go like, okay, who can I talk to about this? And there are so many people listening to this podcast who have never told somebody that

they struggle with. Maybe it's the same thing, same instruction. it's something different that they're like, I cannot tell anybody. And so even just giving people the courage to like tell somebody and know that one, like the grace of God and the love of God is what they should be met with, you know, because there's no condemnation for those who are found in Christ Jesus. And actually when we confess our sins we were healed, we're not always met by that kind of love, but that doesn't mean that's God. Like God's love is that. And she was able to show you God's love. And so I hope that people like, it encourages people to find the right person to tell whatever that thing

us and start the journey towards freedom and victory in it. But I just think about you telling her and like really probably thinking when I tell her this is going to be the end of our relationship. And then all of a sudden she responds with such love and grace and then belief that like Jesus could do something for y'all. And then you were saying like I wanted to believe it but I didn't know. Was there like a world? Like what were you wrestling with like, am I going to be able to marry a woman?

Like how did you start to. wrestle with that. And I heard you say one time that it was like her belief in what Jesus could do that really helped you like keep going and like want to believe it for yourself. But like when did it switch for you that like, oh, I actually believe this for myself that we can do this? That is a very great question. I think Jordan was the catalyst that the Lord used to like, let me see that there was another way. I didn't think that there was another way. You know, I now that was a lifetime. I was 28 when I shared with her for that moment. You know, so 28 years of secrecy, shame that have to be unraveled takes time.

And so that took a lot of time. And I had to work through that. But for me, I think, you know, and I had never, it wasn't like I had even thought that I'd get married because I, the enemy just laser focused me on my sin. And that's all I could see. And so, like, I just kept focusing on that. And it was, it was honestly through all the things we'd give our life to now through worship and through, community and through her belief in me and like that there's another way like there is another way when Jesus is in the story like there's another way that is possible so it was just kind of those next

five six years of us dating were me unraveling out my entire history of like oh you'll never be married you'll never have kids to then get to a place of like okay I think it is possible but what do I do with these very real attractions and very real desires and And where that really changed to answer your question was we had broke up the last like two years. I mean, we were booked up for two years right before we got married or before we got back together and got married and that's a crazy story. But in that two year mark, the thing that changed for me is like for so long I was trying to like I was trying to do all of like fighting my sin for Jordan. Like I was like, okay, if I can like fight my sin to be with her and like this and like because I like being

with her, is it possible? But there was just a moment. There was like a lot of moment. in the two-year breakup for me, that it became, okay, am I doing this to please man or am I doing this to please God? And for me, the very clear revelation for me was that this is what God wanted for my life. And not, and I want to say this too for the person that is walking and say, like, if you have a same-sex attraction in your story, we're not saying the goal is marriage, but we are saying the goal is holiness. And for me, I just felt the spirit inside of me, like, it's never settled with me, like to live that way. So I just had to get to the place where I finally reached the place that it was like, I am doing this to please the Lord with my life. Like, it is a full

surrender of all of myself. The deepest parts of me, the sin, the parts that I hate, like I hate, there are times I wanted to take my life. Like I was just like, I'm, I didn't know how to like keep moving. But the Lord gave me enough of himself through all of that that I truly encountered him in a way where I was like, I will, even if Jordan's not my story, I'm going to choose. to follow you and surrender my sexuality to you in this really big way, like for me. And I threw all of that, that's what actually led us back together because I was like, hey, I'm not trying to do it for her. This is like between me and the Lord.

And if he brings her into the story again, which he did, and we got to do this together and live a life together and build something, then I was like, this is better than what I ever thought. Like I always go back to Psalm 374. Like, delight yourself in the Lord. He gives you the desires of your heart. I had no idea that the desire of my heart was actually to be married and have kids and have a legacy of teaching my kids. The true surrender is always better.

Like when you get Jesus and true surrender, it's always better. But I didn't know that until I delighted in the Lord. And truly, in those two years, like, had to figure out what that look like for me. And it was hard. It was not easy. It was painful. It was I messed up. I'd fall.

I'd come back. Like, just true back and forth. Man, that is so powerful and also, like, so grateful that you're saying that it is hard. It is a surrender. It is, like, ridding you of yourself. When Jesus said, like, if you're going to follow me, like, you got to pick up your cross. And, like, that is a really hard thing to do. Like, pick up your cross.

Die to yourself. Like, these are not easy things to do. But I do think, because when we think about, like, the cost of, like, carrying the cross or the cost of, like, all that. But then it's, like, sometimes you don't think of the cost of staying the same, like, the cost of staying in your sin. I think it is good to talk about. It is hard to change, but it's also hard to say the same. Right. And I think, like, it's good that you're saying when I was, you know, living in my sin

and everybody has whatever their sin looks like, it was not satisfying to the soul. Right. There were moments of, like, pleasure and temporary happiness, as sin does. But it always left you at the end of the day, you know, empty. Empty. And you fill in the blank for however everybody, it makes, sin makes you feel. And so I think people are afraid of the change because they're afraid of how hard it's going to be. Right.

But then you also have to weigh how hard it is to stay, you know? And so I think it's really, really encouraging to hear you go. It was so hard. I didn't even know these were the desires in my heart. And now I'm on the other side. And I love how you're honest and say there's still wrestles as we all go through. But like you are like living in this like fullness in Christ. And like you have that in God and you have that in your family.

And like that's so what a testimony. That's awesome. It's so powerful. Yes. Well, I think I also believe that like we get so laser focused on the thing in front of us that we don't allow ourselves to look beyond that thing and then see like, what does God really want for my life? Like, is it just to wake up every day, fight my sin and then go back to bed? I don't think so.

So I really want to see what his plans and purposes are for me because I believe that he has great ones. And so to continue to fight for those things, like it mattered to me because I didn't want to just live a life where I was like, I fought my sin, you know, or like I wrestled my sin and then I'm gone. Yeah. I believe that he has something special for each person even listening. You know, so I'm like, for you, like, what is the thing that you are dying to that will actually get you to the place that like the Lord is like, here's what I have for you. Like, this is like the greatness of walking with you. Like surrender and then you get this amazing thing.

Like here's the plans that I have for you all along. So good. Like John Tintin, I mean, the thief comes to kill some story. I come to give life and life abundantly, like to the full. And it's true, like, there is life and life to the full. And it's not that you won't so go through hard things, but there is a fullness. Right. There's a fullness of joy, a fullness of peace, a fullness of love.

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and a bottle of vitamin D3 plus K2 free in your welcome kit with your first AG1 subscription. That's a $72 value. That's drinkag1.com slash woe. I have a couple questions, too, and I'm trying to articulate this first question. So for you, you know, this whole, you all have this whole 10-year process journey,

you're leading worship the whole time. Were you, like, because oftentimes people that are living a secret sin that are hiding it, some people are really good at hiding it. Some people, it's like for me,

I'm not a good hider if I'm stressed. You can't hide his feelings. You know. You can tell. But for you, was there, like, if I'm outside looking in, you leading worship, was there a point where your demeanor changed leading worship?

Was it five years in when you confessed it? Was it after you got married? Or was it you were so good at hiding it in secretive? That's a good question. Especially now as a worship pastor. Like I'm sure pastoring other leaders who are human beings who are leading. Could you look back and say this was me after? Before I confess this, this was me after.

This was me full marriage. Yeah, that's really, that's very interesting. I think like looking back, I probably, I was really good at hiding the thing because I was terrified of what people would say about me. So I did hide it and I led and in those seasons I was, you know, we weren't on staff at a church. We were traveling and it was like trying to figure out with the community that I was building, like how to walk out of that lifestyle. And like it wasn't even a lifestyle because it was like, it was like I would like act out in it and then like, you know, go six months a year or whatever. And then maybe something else would happen. But through that, it was just kind of like this whole

process that took a long time for me to like figure that out. But as I struggled through that and journey through that, like there were longer stints. And one thing that was really important to me as I as I got healthy as like as I started like really becoming a whole person because I was really good at compartmentalizing. This thing happens on the side. Then I go like go over here and like go lead worship. All because the Lord, I loved the Lord. I loved it but I just didn't know how to handle my desires mixed with my calling. It's really good. And then it was like I needed to figure out how all that merged. And once that all healthily merged and came together in a way where I'm like now talking about it, not afraid of it, sharing the thing because I believe you cannot be healed from the

things that you keep hidden. It's good. So once all that kind of merged, I do feel like there was like a new found freedom that I started walking in that was better than what I had ever, experience before, you know, like, and that was, I don't know, that was just like, and I even now, like all the way, you know, I started, also one thing to note is like I started telling people when we went to events, if we were going to be partner with somebody, I would tell, you know, whether it was the pastor at a church, or I would say, hey, I want you to know something about me. This is part of my past. And I felt, I felt like that was important because I didn't want to step into someone else's ministry and do that.

something that would hinder them. So I would tell them, hey, this is part of my past. And if somebody comes up to you, if I lead worship here and somebody comes up to you and says this, it's true. And I just want you to know that. So like, I don't want to walk away and you're like surprised later and be like, why didn't you tell me that? So it became very much a personal conviction for me. And I started doing that, which even helped me find more freedom and more community in that. But what's been crazy is like now that we launched open spaces, even, you know, the journey is so long and it's been so long of like so many years of coming through this and like still walking as we all do in our sin and fight but now even in the newfound freedom then I lead I just feel like it's just another

level of like people know me like yeah you know where where it was like terrifying to like even release it and like put it out there and be like here's our story in full you know let me tell you all of my sexual sin it was terrifying but like then when you stand in front of people you're like I'm not hiding anything and like I and this is the grace and redemption of Jesus that for me and he can do it for you. That's so powerful. Like when you're fully known, then you can receive being like fully loved because when you're afraid, okay, but if they know that, then they're not going to love me.

It's always there. Oh, you know that and you love me. And that's like the grace of God and like we get to experience that through people. And it's just, it's so cool. My parents gave us this advice when we were kids whenever our show started. And they were like, if they were like, whatever you have hidden, you be the first to tell people because if you're not quick to confess and you're not quick to like put it out there you're always going to be scared that it's going to be found out and it's going to like keep like nervous a

time silence it's going to hinder your voice and everything and it's so true because you're always scared like okay what do people find out that then I can never and it like keeps you from because I think the enemy will go oh you hypocrite you know and I love how you said it's like because the enemy's going to tell you you're hypocrite but then I would say to like I remember in my own wrestle back you know in high school, just being like, no, God, I really love you. I'm not trying to be a hypocrite. I just don't know how to deny myself. So it's like, it's not that I'm trying to do that.

And I would just ask the Lord, like, help me to like really love you with all my heart, with all my soul, with all my mind, with my straight. And sometimes it's like, my heart's on board, but my mind's all right. Help me, God, like, give me that. And just that struggle. But then that confession, just letting yourself be known, it lets you walk in so much freedom. Like people say to me all the time, like, you're so vulnerable. I'm like, well, I would rather people just know that way I'm not scared.

They're going to find out, you know, and that I can tell it as a testimony. Jordan, I want to ask you something that I don't, we get this question so often and I've never been able to address it because one of the things, we open our DMs and we have a voicemail that people call in and like ask questions. And so cool. We always are like save them for the right moment if the right person comes on. And something somebody asked, a lot of women ask is like their husband, like, struggles with porn. And it makes them feel like really insecure. And then they don't know how to

like help their husband and their struggle without like their own insecurity and hurt in that, like how to navigate that in a relationship and in a marriage. And then a lot of people also in dating relationships are like, I know my boyfriend struggles with this and what do I do about that and how should we get married? Should we not? Can you speak a little bit just as the woman of this? like with what that did for you and how you work through that. Yeah, that's great. Let's see. The first thing that comes to mind is my own kind of journey through feeling my own

insecurities of like, okay, so are you attracted to me? Like, are you, does this mean that you're not attracted to me? Or like, what is this, what is that, what are the implications here? And even for intimacy for us, like, what is that, like, what is that? going to look like. And the more I have learned about Jeff and about what it looks like to have this particular struggle, the more I have understood that it doesn't have to do with me. And it definitely affects me. So that's important to acknowledge and to learn how to navigate. But I think, So that was the first thing is like just beginning to understand more about like it feels like one of the things that our counselor used to tell us was this isn't personal, but it feels so personal. And like it affects me so personally. And so just trying to like kind of repeat that. Like this isn't about me and but it does affect me. So I'm not going to pretend like it doesn't or try to make it not. But also.

not being afraid to dig in with with your spouse or significant other. I think it can be very intimidating to like figure out how to talk about it. And in that, you're just, you kind of have to just fumble through it. Like there's, you're not going to get it right at first. Yeah. It might take a while to get it right. Like how we can, how we can talk about this without getting in a fight or how we can talk about this without getting tense.

But just be willing to do that. Like be willing to go through that, um, that message. and and then also like are they willing to do the work because it takes so much work and and it is worth it is it's hard like like we've already talked about um are do you see fruit like do you see someone who is like not just like mad that it happened again but like nothing in their life is changing, no disciplines, no accountability, you know, if there's counseling needed, like, there's nothing else in place. Those are not good signs. Yeah. That there's, that anything is going to change. So really, you know, on a practical level, like, are they willing to do the work? Can you

see in their spirit and their heart that there's like a posture of repentance and restoration? but really trying to learn, I don't know too, how like it's important to be on a journey of understanding how much we idolize marriage and sex and sexuality and attraction and preference. Like those could become idols for any of us. So we can have these fantasies of how we hoped it would be or we thought it should be or a fantasy of this beautiful Christian marriage and what sex and that looks like and all that. this stuff. And that, those things are great, but they can become idols. And so if we're, if we're just comparing to what we thought we wanted or we thought we deserved or what we've seen in other people,

then that's a dangerous place for me and my heart too. So I need to be willing to be honest with, like, what are my expectations that I'm idolizing? Yeah, that's really good. And let those break down. Yeah. And be willing to discover for me, the most freedom has come for us is when I'm willing to discover like what is what is this yeah like what is this that god has given us yeah and what is unique and special about it and what do i need to i've had to grieve the things that i did not get yeah and stepping into this marriage and we all do that you know like i'm sure you guys have in your own marriage have found things that you're like i didn't expect that or i didn't i didn't really want that but i do have it and so now i have to figure out how

to work with it. You know, it's like that's not unique to anybody's marriage. But, so just helping to just frame that like, yeah, we all have to lay down our preferences. Yes, this is so helpful. This time of year, my dad is basically outside every single day. He's working around the compound, fixing some things, hitting golf balls. He's always got something going on. Every day I see him out there. He is wearing one of his favorite poncho outdoor shirts. And honestly, it makes sense because poncho shirts are lightweight. breathable and quick drying, which is actually exactly what he needs being in the heat all day. Plus they've got this built-in stretch so poncho shirts actually move with you instead of against you.

They even have some protection with UPF 50 plus and even more coverage in the long sleeve options. My dad and Christian both love the original shirt because it's packed with all the good stuff like hidden pockets and even a built-in lens cloth for your sunglasses. Poncho offers slim and regular options so it gives that tailored feel that you know you can go from the yard to dinner and not look out of place. I actually think poncho is like the coolest brand because people like my dad and Christian both love it and look good in it. Now, that's some different styles there and they both rock it. So if you're looking for lightweight, comfortable shirts for spring and summer, check out poncho outdoors. Go to poncho outdoors.com slash woe. Go to poncho outdoors.

dot com slash woe and enter your email for $10 off your first order. That's poncho P-O-N-C-H-O-Outdoors.com slash woe for $10 off and free shipping. Go try one out. I remember when Brandon Lake was on the podcast and him and Brittany were talking about expectations in marriage and like he was really honest about how just like all these movies he had seen and he just thought like that's what marriage is going to be. And then it's like not because we're all real people who have real lives. And it's like, and so you have to get over the expectation of this fantasy that you thought it was going to be.

And I think that's where, like, community is so, like, helpful. Absolutely. Like, I was just thinking about this other day because we have some couple friends that we just watched with for, you know, the past six years, I guess. And all the guys talk a lot and all the girls talk a lot. And it's just been, like, the healthiest thing and, like, so beautiful. Because as we share it, we realize, like, we all have these things. And it's just so helpful because if you're just looking online or you're just watching movies or reality TV out there, okay, I know we ever like a show, but sometimes, sometimes it's not always real, you know. You're watching all these relationships unfold and it's like, this is not what day-to-day looks like, you know?

And so to have like an healthy expectation of what it looks like for two people to be pursuing the Lord and each other is so helpful. And then also there is that, so there's the community, but there is that. also individual thing of like, but ours is going to look different than anybody else. And so it's like, you can't compare. You can't look. You got to like, Lord, what does it look like for us in our life and our intimacy? And so I think it's both. It's, you know, letting people in, having those conversations and then also being confident in what the Lord has for you as a couple. Yeah. Yeah. For you guys, because I know especially after you all launched the podcast, how many couples y'all have been able to kind of counsel through, you know, whether they're going there,

whether they're dating or I know y'all have talked about even married couples that have never confessed this. Specifically for dating, just because y'all's story is so unique, and the length of time and all those things, how do you all, for someone that's dating, and it could be, whether it's same sex or just, like stated just with lust and pornography and things like that, when y'all do counsel people with what y'all have been through, what's that, like, what's the fine line of working through it with counselors with this might take more time versus or on the flip side of like hey this might just not be the right thing because for me it's like if there's no

accountability if you don't have community if you don't if you're not truly seeking to seek help in it I feel like eventually you're just going to yeah I feel like that's what you're saying it's like you have to see that they're willing to change and get do the work to change not just say it. How do y'all communicate that with people of like this is our story? Like it's going to look different for everybody. We didn't do it perfectly. But we were both pursuing to seek help in these areas.

Yeah. So how do you all counsel people through that of like just kind of like this, the headstrongness of some people? It's funny because when we talk about our story, like we were in counseling dating and then we're like we've told other couples like, never do counseling dating. And they're like, but y'all day were like, because I've heard that. But like, you didn't have this to go through.

Like, so, like, it's like, ah, you're good. But it's like, it was so unique to us that we needed the counselors help in order to keep moving. So now I think we've got to the place where we're like, okay, like, what does it look like for these two people to chase Jesus and shoulder to shoulder see what he has for them? And at what point do we need to like, do you need outside help, you know? And I think so there's a couple of things. I know you'll have good things to say on this. But the one thing that I would say to is just like, it's not, you know, we've counseled

people when you start dating, like you don't sit down on date one and start. So here's the thing. I have same-sex attraction and that's a part of my story. What do you think? It's like, don't do that. There's a quote and I love. It's like when you're vulnerable with someone, it's actually in the Bray Brown book. It's like vulnerability without empathy leads to shame. And so if you share something so vulnerable with someone that doesn't know how to be empathetic or is going with their own stuff and you can't trust their heart and they don't meet you with love. and that will lead to more shape. So you do have to like really, you know, make sure you're sharing with someone.

Like, y'all are together for a long time before you just share with Jordan. It made sense in the moment that I shared with her because we had to work through some stuff because like what I did not want to do is just be like pretend. And then we get married and it's like, oh, by the way, here's this bomb. And so that mattered to me. So it was like a process, but I would say that like for couples that are dating, something that we talk about is like do hold nothing. like before you get married,

like they, you need to, like that person needs to know everything about you. Yeah. They need to know they are literally attaching their life to you and this holy bond. Like so like you can't hide back and you've got to tell them everything about you. So it's like there's a,

there is a moment that it's like, okay, now's the time to like really open this up and it could be scary. But the flip side of that that I experience is when you do that and the person move towards you, then moves towards you, then you get the grace of God in a way that you've never experienced, which is really beautiful. but I'll let you speak to more on like the dating.

I mean, you... It's really good. That's awesome. Something that comes to mind to Christian, and that is like, before we started sharing the details of our story, we had been on a couple panels or something, like when we were leading worship at breakaway, like, we did a panel with Ben and Donna about like our dating relationship, and we didn't talk specifically about the same-sex attraction piece in that, but we talked about the back and forth and the breakups and, you know, something was going on and had to be worked through.

and I started getting all these messages from girls that were like, me and my boyfriend just broke up and I really believe that we're supposed to be together. But, you know, X, Y, Z is going on and, like, how did you, like, you know, kind of asking me, like, how did you handle those breakup periods and that kind of stuff? And, like, how did you know, like, when you got back together? And I think, and I understand, like, my heart, like, just really, is compelled towards these young women that are like in that wrestle and struggle and your their hearts are broken and so you there's there is so much um empathy empathy for that like

but i also understand that before we really started working through our like the deeper issues i was i was not in a healthy place either and i was like our relationship was not healthy like I mean, Jeff has, you know, talked about all of this before, but he wasn't, like, treating me the best. And he was, you know, there was like a lot of, like, just it was taking advantage of or, like, kind of being flipping about things. And so I can also recognize when sometimes people are just like, you're, you might be in an unhealthy relationship, but you're just so attached to it that it's just hard to let go of. Yeah. And so in those situations, I really, because the work that the Lord did in me when we were broken up was,

helped show me how much of my identity was attached to this relationship. And even like the leading worship piece, like leading worship with Jeff and like feeling like I needed that to be who I was supposed to be in ministry. And there were just all these unhealthy attachment pieces. And so I would encourage the people that are in these situations, especially in dating, to really let the Lord show you what's going on in your own heart. Like what is happening there? Is there something that where you just feel like, well, if I don't marry him, then who am I going to marry? Yeah. You know, like, and being willing to settle for something less than you than the Lord intends for you.

Yeah. So let him examine your heart and be willing to be honest about it. It will hurt so badly if you have to end that relationship. But it is so much better and it is such a mercy of God to end something that is unhealthy and that is bad for you ultimately. Yeah. You don't want to be in a marriage that will. was that is less than everything that God has intended.

And he doesn't want you to be struggling with, am I enough? Yeah. Am I enough in this relationship? Like, he doesn't want you to be struggling that way. So it would be so much better to just let it go and allow yourself to heal and to try to figure out, like, how do I get him to do the X, Y, Z? Because if only he does this, then I know that it's going to be okay.

You know, just like that striving. Ultimately, what brought us together is we, surrender. Yeah. We laid down our religion. We both surrendered. You laid down the idea. You were done.

Like when at the end, Jordan's like, I'm done. We broke up two years. Like she starts doing somebody else. Like she's like, I'm, I can't be in this for my own. It's not good for me. And I had to figure out the whole thing I talked about before.

Like just with like figuring out like I'm doing this because I want to honor God. Not, you know, not just please Jordan. And it was truly a surrender for both of us of laying down the relationship that ultimately two years later brought us back together. And is why we're married now. Wow. Did you all talk at all in those two years?

Like, would y'all see each other in passing? It was interesting. We saw each other like, because we were both worship leaders at. That's what I thought. And we were at the village. Well, for the first year, we didn't see each other much. It was actually very interesting that we didn't cross paths more because we were so entwined. I mean, like, I had been traveling leading worship with Jeff.

Wow. So we had to figure out like the dynamics of friendships and like ministry. Like I basically started over in ministry and like the Lord was really kind to, you know, to carry me through that. But yeah, we eventually did start running into each other at church. Because we were at the village church in Dallas. And like one of us would be leading worship. The other one wouldn't.

And we'd be like, you know, standing in the back row, like trying not to let them see us, like it distracted. But we were intentionally not in touch. Yeah. That was a very clear boundary set. Yeah. Very clear boundary set. Everything you just said, I'm like, oh my gosh. If I heard that at 18, it would have changed my life.

I really mean that. Like, I'm like, I know this is going to help so many people because I think about. relationships that I was in and just the stronghold that they had on me because my identity was so wrapped up in it and then not just that the fear of like I don't want to start over and everybody and my family got married young and I want to get married young and then if I break up with this person then I would start all like all the same but it was like I remember someone saying to me at the time it should not be this hard like dating should not be this hard and I remember thinking but I've always heard marriage is hard and it's like worth fighting for and then because

like, oh, but I'm not married. Like, this is not married yet. This is dating. That's right. And maybe it shouldn't be this hard. And why I say that, because obviously you are speaking to it was hard and it is hard and there is that. And we had hard things and all that.

But there's still something worth fighting for. And like, so when it's hard and it's worth fighting for, you're like, I stay. It's like, for y'all, you knew what you were fighting for. There is always like, but I see what Jesus can do if we were to be together. Yes. From me and these. It really wasn't worth fighting for. I was fighting because I was afraid of what my life would look like without it.

I was afraid of like the codependency I had created. I was afraid of the things that we had done. I was afraid of all of that. But it wasn't like, oh, it's worth fighting for it because we're so much better together. You know, like God's going to use us. It wasn't a good reason to fight for it. Whereas the Christian and I, it's like, oh, there was some hard stuff. My gosh, you know, like I remember telling him, I don't want you tell me that you love me until you know me.

and we really meant that. And so I remember dating for a few months, and then we started to fall in love, and it's like, okay, we're going to share our stories now. And then after we really knew each other, we were like, I love you. Like, we leaned forward. And then it was like, oh, God is going to use us.

Like, we knew, like, we were better together than apart. And so no matter what we were about to face, it was worth fighting for. And I think about, like, my grandparents, because my grandfather, who passed away last year, him and M. M. M. M.K., they were married for 50-plus years. And, like, their story's very known. They made a movie about their story. But, like, even in their movie, like, they had to cut so much of the bad because it made him so unlikable. And it made, it made you want to be like,

no, she shouldn't have stayed. And really, she didn't have to stay. And she really, some people could say she shouldn't have stayed. But yet, my grandmother always says that her grandmother told her your marriage is worth fighting for. And she fought because of the boys. you know, she was like, I want our family. And I believe that God can change my grandfather's life. And by the grace of God, he did. And it was worth fighting for. And then, you know, 50 years later,

they have this legacy of, like, family that they created. And so I think that's something to, like, weigh in your heart. Absolutely. Is it worth fighting for? Do I see the vision of what God has for us as a couple? Yes. And that picture. And when we're at our best in person, Lord,

like that's something that I want to, you know, create and make a legacy of. And so I want to say one more thing on that too, because I just, I'm thinking about the people in dating relationships that are feeling like, similar to what you're talking about. Like, well, there's, we all have to make compromises. Like, we all have to make compromises. But in that maybe somebody is justifying that you feel like you have to change in order to be what this person wants. And I want to speak to. that person because God made you exactly like he wanted you to be. And he didn't, he didn't mess up and he didn't, he didn't mean that you needed to change your personality or change the way that

you act in public or change the way that you interact with friends so that you could be married to this person. And if that is not, if this person, you know, the other person, the person on the other side of that is not satisfied, then that's not your person. Yeah, that's not your person. And I think that I just want to be clear, like, another, this is another, like, asking the Holy Spirit to examine, am I, am I trying to justify, like, changing who I am for someone? Yeah. In the name of, well, we all have to make compromise. Yeah. And that's, that there is a very clear difference. And if you are feeling insecure and, like, you are not enough for that person, then that is not it. Yeah. Oh, that's so good. It's so good, and especially, like, with the context of y'all's story, you know, it's so good to say,

like, this is what y'all are wrestling with, but so you don't change who you are, you know, and it's so beautiful, gosh. So this podcast, one question I always ask everybody is like, what's the piece of advice? I was going to ask one more question if I can. If I'm at last. Really quick, and y'all can answer this very briefly. But just because a lot of people step into marriage thinking this will solve issues, whether it's jealousy, envy. We'll get married. No, no. I won't lust anymore.

I won't be jealous of so and so. I won't envy this situation. When y'all are moving towards marriage, because I know you probably had to combat the lie of, even if we get married, this still might be a thing. And you are like, we might get married, and this still might be a thing. How did y'all work towards that of like,

like, this might not solve the issue, but we're still choosing to, in faith, to make this step? That's a great question. because I do think that even when we got married, I still had some naive thinking around that of like, well, maybe it will change some things or like maybe there will be some kind of, you know, I don't know, I think that I still did want to believe some of that. But it was just, it was another stumbling through of like figuring it out. and I have learned so much since we've been married that even though, you know, we did a good job of, you know, telling each other and like knowing each other before we got married, there's just so much to learn. There's always more.

There's so much to learn. And so just being willing to remain curious about each other, keep learning about each other and asking questions. But yes, I definitely felt like there was some of that. And so there were several wake-up calls of like, oh, no, this is still very much, like, there are still temptations in this, in this department. Like, this is, this is still ongoing. And so how am I going to be the partner you need? How am I going to be the support and encouragement you need? And, again, how am I not going to take this personally?

But also keep a standard, you know, and like, I've- And your response to me helped me, it helped normalize this particular struggle where cultural, makes it so other than. The way that Jordan responded to me was like, oh, that's your struggle. Okay, cool. Like, we're going to fight that. And it wasn't like, oh, that's like so other than. So yes, going into marriage, I knew that this might be a thing that I battle my whole life.

But I also knew that after 10 years of knowing what it was like being with Jordan, that life was going to be way better together, watching what God could do through a marriage and believing and trusting in that he had a plan for. us and I didn't know what it was going to look like and it was very scary like honestly getting married was scary for me because I was like we even had the conversation and you know we've been very 15 years and we were like in 10 20 years when culture is saying it's okay are we going to like that's going to be harder are we going to still stand firm on what we are saying to this day and we made all those commitments and we've continued to walk in that and it's just been you know where

the struggle hasn't gone away it's like our allegiance to Jesus is what holds us. And we're like, we're committed to follow him and trust and see what he has. And we've gotten to experience the miraculous together because we took a leap of faith. We're like, we're going to see what this is like together. And we're committing to each other. And there's no other way. There's no out.

So we're in this. And when we, we've gotten to see the miraculous truly happen in our marriage. Like the fact that we have three miracle kids. Like, it's truly nothing that I ever could have imagined. And now all I want to do is tell dads, like, think about the legacy you're leaving. Don't just feed your desires or like men. You know, there's so much more in a marriage when you are submitted to Christ and you work this out together and you share the hard things and you give grace to each other

and you fight and for each other and for the holiness in your marriage. Like, it's crazy what Jesus can do. It's miraculous. And one more thing on that. I just, it goes back to like idolizing the fantasy. of like, well, maybe these things can change or maybe it will be more of what I hoped for and is really truly remembering if you are a believer and you actually do see marriage as a picture of Christ in the church and the power that can come when you have like an actual partnership

of building the kingdom of God together, that trumps all of those things. It really does trump all of your preferences and like and you still have to deal with it. It doesn't make them go away. But if we can keep like lift our eyes a little bit beyond that just like the the preferences or the fantasy or what we thought marriage was going to look like and realize like we get to build something so much bigger than ourselves with the power of God and the Holy Spirit. And we get to tell the others as possible for them. Yes. And like that that really does alleviate so much of what you're laying down. Oh, that's so good. It's so encouraging to. to hear like the example you are setting for your kids.

And I think a lot of people, you know, fear, oh, well, if my kids know this about me, then like, you know, I mean, even like with my own stuff, I'm like, the fear that I've had. And I'm like, oh, I don't want them to see all that stuff. But it's like, oh, but actually showing them, no, I do struggle with this. Like I, I mean, for me to, in my own struggles, it's like, no, I am afraid, but I'm going to keep showing up because God is going to give me courage or God's going to give me strength. And not like hiding the fear aspect or not hiding the same thing. sex attractions. Like, no, that is hard, but we submit to the law and we submit to each other.

And I love your mom and I love your dad. And like, just showing them how to overcome struggle. Like, they don't need a vision of a perfect parent. Like, they need to see what how you as a person. That doesn't equip them. And when they get older and they're going to be like, oh, I'm the failure. My mom and dad didn't struggle. And that's been a hard journey for us, figuring out, like, how to share with them and like how to tell them and bring them into the whole process. but and going from hero to human with your kid is really not fun. But we believe that by bringing them into the journey, that they will know that their mom and dad lived a life surrender to the fullness of what Jesus called them to,

and it was hard, but they got to be part of a miraculous story of creating a family legacy that we say Jesus is the banner over our life. That's so good. That's so powerful. Oh, that's so good. I want to cry. Ask your advice question.

No, I was just going to say, I'm going to say on the note of this podcast, centered on advice because I feel like I'm always asking people for advice. And like it's helped me so much in my life. Like I can't even imagine the past seven years what my life would like if I didn't have this podcast where I was asking people like, what's your advice? How do you get through things? And so I was just going to shout out y'all's podcast, open spaces, because that's what y'all are doing for so many people, is giving advice,

is speaking into as being the person that's like, hey, I walk this road. I can help you. you're being the friend that you needed, being the pastor and mentor that you guys were searching for, and I'm so thankful for that. And so for everybody listening, I know this is just the beginning of this conversation. If you're like, wow, I need so much more, they have a lot of podcast episodes out and continuing to have new episodes out where they dive into all of these spaces. And there's really no place they don't go, which I'm so thankful for. We've listened along. We're going to continue to listen along. And so I encourage you to go listen. And today, as just

a first step, I just encourage you. One, go to the Lord. Confess to the Lord first. He already knows, but he loves to hear your heart, your confession before him. And before you're met with the love of God through a person, be met with just the love of God in prayer. And then start praying about who's that person that you could share. Maybe it's a pastor, a mentor, a friend, a safe space that you can confess your sins

and start going through that journey of healing and freedom. But there is not one thing that you are struggling with right now that the cross did not cover, the blood of Jesus not cover, and there is a miracle story for you too, and I just encourage you to lean into that. But thank y'all so much for coming on. This was so encouraging. Thank you so much for having. Thank you so much. I really do love you guys, so much.